transponder key situation, but no key: Ford Explorer
Nehmo Sergheyev
Let's say you have no keys, what would it take to get a new key made? Is
this only possible at the Ford dealers? How much roughly will it cost?
Is there any workaround? Is it possible to break the steering lock and
enable the ignition?
I'm in Kansas City Kansas.
--
(||) Nehmo (||)
Joe Kesselman
> Let's say you have no keys, what would it take to get a new key made? Is
> this only possible at the Ford dealers? How much roughly will it cost?
It is sometimes possible to negotiate this situation with the vehicle's
computer, in which case the cost is not hugely unreasonable. Some
locksmiths can handle this; any dealer should be able to.
If not, it becomes necessary to replace the vehicle's computer, in which
case costs probably start around $500 and go up from there. In that
case, you're talking to the dealer, or possibly to an auto mechanic if
you're willing to accept a second-source module.
> Is there any workaround? Is it possible to break the steering lock and
> enable the ignition?
No.
--
() ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Joe Kesselman
/\ Stamp out HTML e-mail! | System architexture and kinetic poetry
Ted
Just call your dealer for a price..Replacing the computer will only place
you back to square one- you will still need the keys cut and programmed.
Also, it is the KEY that enables the ignition; it will still not start
just because you break the lock and are able to turn the switch.
"Nehmo Sergheyev" <neh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eDAMf.4224$Eg2...@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
'Key
news:eDAMf.4224$Eg2...@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
the transponder started in the Explorer in mid-year 2001
> Let's say you have no keys, what would it take to get a
> new key made? Is
> this only possible at the Ford dealers? How much roughly
> will it cost?
A locksmith that does trasnsponder keys can help you with
this.
prices vary depending on your goegraphical location.
price for making key + programing key + transponder key.
we would charge in our area $150.00
note; while you are at it, have two made and programed.
that way you can add a third key yourself without having to
get it programmed.
> Is there any workaround?
No...
>Is it possible to break the steering lock and
> enable the ignition?
No...
sorry for the cross-posted reply.
just trying to locate you.
g'luck
--
"Key"
Ted
wrote in message news:30j602t00eiaiuaoc...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 18:15:44 GMT, you wrote:
>
>>note; while you are at it, have two made and programed.
>>that way you can add a third key yourself without having to
>>get it programmed.
>>
>>> Is there any workaround?
>>
>>No...
> third key without the programming tool..might vary with model,
> but they 'pulled this option..
>
> --Shiva--
>
>If you have TWO working keys, you can program more keys, up to a total of
>eight, just by following the instructions in the owners manual. You only
>need special tools if you do NOT have two working keys.
Jim Warman
user being able to program a third key at home providing they have both
programmed keys. Before 02, there were some variations as PATs strategy was
being implemented/studied/improved.... this included no user programmable
features in some years/models.
One should always be wary of assuming things....
wrote in message news:r0p7021eg49o8cd4k...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 21:13:33 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>
>>>If you have TWO working keys, you can program more keys, up to a total of
>>>eight, just by following the instructions in the owners manual. You
>>>only
>>>need special tools if you do NOT have two working keys.
>>
> my dealer is telling me different..
> owners manual is not showing on board adding of the third key any
> more
> PRE 2000 or so, yes...
> 'some' models, you can.. but some cannot..
>
> --Shiva--
>
>
Marsh Monster
.
.
as it pertains to the topic at hand....
I dug this link out.
.
.
http://www.f150driver.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1582568&postcount=14
As to the OPs concerns,
I agree with the higher minds hear........
Be it from a locksmith or the dealer,
getting another key is the least costly
alternative. Not the only alternative.
Just the most economical and most
logical.
~:~
MarshMonster
~:~
ShoeSaleman
get a pack of resistors close to your voltage.....ok.....right...
shouldn't it say measure your keys resistance, buy resistors to
match...Is he just making this up? he also said the wires are covered in
tubing that say 'SRS caution' on them. OMG. did you read it marsh?
Marsh Monster
.
====
====
=====
Shoe,
I read it.
Don't know how true it is....but I read it.
If you click on the link at the top right of that post......
it'll give the thread it was posted in.
I know it's doable on the the GM vats systems that use
the resister in the key....but....I've yet to come across a
sure fire method on Fords pats systems.
The dude that made the post may not have used his
terminology according to practicle application, but I
understood the proceedure as he outlined it. Not so
sure I'd be brave enough to go chopping on wires marked
for the SRS though. lmao..brave dude.
any whooo...
like they say on TV......don't go try'n this at home. :)
~:~
marshmonster
~:~
SunshineTeam.net
VATS was used on GM type vehicles and involved a resistor. The early
models used values 0 to 15. The later models dropped 0 and used 1 to
15. It is essentially a resistor embedded within the key. You have 1
out of 15 (or 16) of getting the resistor value correct. Think of it as
a letter of the alphabet (as an example). Just guessing the correct
letter is fairly easy.
PATS (and all other Transponder technology) uses a transponder, which is
a radio wave frequency. The computer sends a signal to the head of the
key and it responds with a unique value. If the value programmed within
the computer memory is found, the vehicle will start. There are
BILLIONS of transponder codes within this technology. There is no
fooling the system with a resistor. Think of it as a fingerprint.
Guessing what fingerprint it requires is a whole lot more complicated.
Sunshine Locksmith Team
http://www.SunshineLocksmith.com
http://www.SunshineTeam.net
Marsh Monster
.
TOP POST
=======
=======
Thank you,
but I am very much aware of the differences in the two
systems.......and the operational parameters of the two.
but.....
nice posting style.
~:~
MarshMonster
~:~
=========
=========
SunshineTeam.net wrote:
> VATS is way different than PATS (as the Ford system is known as).
>
> VATS was used on GM type vehicles and involved a resistor. The early
> models used values 0 to 15. The later models dropped 0 and used 1 to
> 15. It is essentially a resistor embedded within the key. You have 1
> out of 15 (or 16) of getting the resistor value correct. Think of it as
> a letter of the alphabet (as an example). Just guessing the correct
> letter is fairly easy.
>
>
> PATS (and all other Transponder technology) uses a transponder, which is
> a radio wave frequency. The computer sends a signal to the head of the
> key and it responds with a unique value. If the value programmed within
> the computer memory is found, the vehicle will start. There are
> BILLIONS of transponder codes within this technology. There is no
> fooling the system with a resistor. Think of it as a fingerprint.
> Guessing what fingerprint it requires is a whole lot more complicated.
>
>
> Sunshine Locksmith Team
> http://www.SunshineLocksmith.com
> http://www.SunshineTeam.net
>
> Marsh Monster wrote:
> > .
dnoyeB
> A Ford Explorer 2001 that takes a transponder key.
>
>
>
> Let's say you have no keys, what would it take to get a new key made? Is
> this only possible at the Ford dealers? How much roughly will it cost?
>
When you have no keys the cheapest route will be to go to the dealer.
THey can make a new key based on the VIN or other numbers found on your
car if you still have original steering column. Im not sure dealers are
required to have the same prices for this stuff so maybe call a few to
see who is cheapest.
> Is there any workaround? Is it possible to break the steering lock and
> enable the ignition?
>
>
No, thats the point of the system.
>
> I'm in Kansas City Kansas.
>
Isin't that where they make the Ford Explorer? They make some Ford
there. You can probably get a blank key from someone at the plant, get
a lock smith to cut it, and get the dealership to program it. You can
probably program it without the tool, but the procedure may be secret or
hidden in the owners manual. I know GM can be done without the tool,
but it takes 1/2 hour.
Note: European anti-theft rules are different and euro vehicles
anti-theft behaves differently.
--
Thank you,
"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16
Ted
I don't know where you are looking, here is a cut and paste from 2001
Explorer Owner guide, 1rst printing page 118:
Programming spare keys
A maximum of eight keys can be coded to your vehicle. Only
SecuriLocky keys can be used. To program a coded key yourself, you
will need two previously programmed coded keys (keys that already
operate your vehicle's engine) and the new unprogrammed key(s) readily
accessible for timely implementation of each step in the procedure.
If two previously programmed coded keys are not available (one or both
of your original keys were lost or stolen), you must bring your vehicle to
your dealership to have the spare coded key(s) programmed.
Please read and understand the entire procedure before you begin.
1. Insert the first previously
programmed coded key into the
ignition and turn the ignition from 3
(OFF) to 4 (ON) (maintain ignition
in 4 (ON) for at least one second).
2. Turn ignition to 3 (OFF) then 2
(LOCK) and remove the first coded
key from the ignition.
3. Within ten seconds of removing
the first coded key, insert the
second previously programmed coded key into the ignition and turn the
ignition from 3 (OFF) to 4 (ON) (maintain ignition in 4 (ON) for at least
one second but no more than ten seconds).
4. Turn the ignition to 3 (OFF) then 2 (LOCK) and remove the second
coded key from the ignition.
3
2
1
5
4
Controls and features
119
5. Within 20 seconds of removing the second coded key, insert the new
unprogrammed key (new key/valet key) into the ignition and turn the
ignition from 3 (OFF) to 4 (ON) (maintain ignition in 4 (ON) for at least
one second). This step will program your new key to a coded key.
6. To program additional new unprogrammed key(s), repeat this
procedure from step 1.
If successful, the new coded key(s) will start the vehicle's engine and the
theft indicator will illuminate for three seconds and then go out.
If not successful, the new coded key(s) will not start the vehicle's engine
and the theft indicator will flash on and off. If failure repeats, bring
your
vehicle to your dealership to have the new spare key(s) programmed.
Controls and features
120
wrote in message news:r0p7021eg49o8cd4k...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 21:13:33 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>
>>>If you have TWO working keys, you can program more keys, up to a total of
>>>eight, just by following the instructions in the owners manual. You
>>>only
>>>need special tools if you do NOT have two working keys.
>>
Ted
wrote in message news:ovo802d12nahvno00...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 06:58:53 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>I don't know where you are looking, here is a cut and paste from 2001
>>Explorer Owner guide, 1rst printing page 118:
>>
> they changed it on the newer models.
>
>
> --Shiva--
>
>Read the original post- it is about a 2001 Ford Explorer that the original
>two keys are lost. I am sure the person could care less how to fix OTHER
>vehicles.
My original response was: (You simply need to have two new keys cut for the
vehicle and reprogrammed).
That is all there is to it.
trainfan1
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 08:07:27 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>>There are
>>BILLIONS of transponder codes within this technology. There is no
>>fooling the system with a resistor. Think of it as a fingerprint.
>>Guessing what fingerprint it requires is a whole lot more complicated.
>
>
> made the chip was talking about 42? quadrillion codes without
> duplication.
>
... that should be enough for Toyota's production for a year or two...
once the other mfgs are gone...
Rob
'Key
news:30j602t00eiaiuaoc...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 18:15:44 GMT, you wrote:
>
>>that way you can add a third key yourself without having
>>to
>>get it programmed.
>>
>>> Is there any workaround?
>>
>>No...
> add a
> third key without the programming tool..might vary with
> model,
> but they 'pulled this option..
>
> --Shiva--
>
as far as I know it has not changed but will check it out.
the Ilco Auto Truck key blank reference 2006
still shows OBP on most models up through 2006.
see below.
http://www.kaba-ilco.com/key_systems/pdf/2006_Auto_Truck_Key
_Blank_Reference_%5B2852-E-1105%5D.pdf
has a length of 98 characters and resulted in the following
TinyURL which has a length of 24 characters:
http://tinyurl.com/lo8tu
--
"Key"
'Key
news:1141113228.8...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> .
> .
> .
> as it pertains to the topic at hand....
> I dug this link out.
> .
> .
> http://www.f150driver.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1582568&postcount=14
>
>
article does not apply to the subject.
vats key is not to be compared to a transponder key.
my2ยข
--
"Key"
'Key
> .
> .
> TOP POST
> =======
> =======
> Thank you,
> but I am very much aware of the differences in the two
> systems.......and the operational parameters of the two.
>
then why did you say
"as it pertains to the topic at hand" ?
--
"Key"
'Key
news:ovo802d12nahvno00...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 06:58:53 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>
>>paste from 2001
>>Explorer Owner guide, 1rst printing page 118:
>>
> they changed it on the newer models.
>
>
> --Shiva--
>
it appears to still stand true.
refer to my post
news:E59Nf.57206$7y1....@tornado.texas.rr.com
--
"Key"
'Key
news:P7qdnW5hLo6tyZnZ...@comcast.com...
> Nehmo Sergheyev wrote:
>> A Ford Explorer 2001 that takes a transponder key.
>>
>>
>>
>> Let's say you have no keys, what would it take to get a
>> new key made? Is
>> this only possible at the Ford dealers? How much roughly
>> will it cost?
>>
>
> When you have no keys the cheapest route will be to go to
> the dealer. THey can make a new key based on the VIN or
> other numbers found on your car if you still have original
> steering column. Im not sure dealers are required to have
> the same prices for this stuff so maybe call a few to see
> who is cheapest.
>
>
>> Is there any workaround? Is it possible to break the
>> steering lock and
>> enable the ignition?
>>
>>
>
> No, thats the point of the system.
>
>>
>> I'm in Kansas City Kansas.
>>
>
> Isin't that where they make the Ford Explorer? They make
> some Ford there. You can probably get a blank key from
> someone at the plant, get a lock smith to cut it, and get
> the dealership to program it.
auto locksmiths can program too.
its NOT a dealer only thing...
> I know GM can be done without the tool, but it takes 1/2
> hour.
different tool..
doesn't apply to transponder technology.
--
"Key"
dnoyeB
>>Isin't that where they make the Ford Explorer? They make
>>some Ford there. You can probably get a blank key from
>>someone at the plant, get a lock smith to cut it, and get
>>the dealership to program it.
>
>
> auto locksmiths can program too.
> its NOT a dealer only thing...
>
>
>>I know GM can be done without the tool, but it takes 1/2
>>hour.
>
>
> different tool..
> doesn't apply to transponder technology.
>
I'm not following what your saying. GM can be done without any tool.
got nothing to do with 'different' tool. Transponders are transponders.
GM/Ford/Chrysler will all be using the same transponders. Its the
software in their modules that will determine if you need a tool or not.
I can't say that Ford does not need a tool because I don tknow there
system. But having written software for these systems I can safely say
that there is no reason for requiring a tool.
dnoyeB
I didnt read the article. But VATS vs. PATS is irrelevant. Whats
relevant if they built in a way to reprogram the system with or without
a tool. GM PATS does not require a tool. I'm sure the dealership will
be happy to claim otherwise. If you have a tool you can do it faster,
but without a tool, you can still do it yourself.
'Key
>>>
>>>Isin't that where they make the Ford Explorer? They make
>>>some Ford there. You can probably get a blank key from
>>>someone at the plant, get a lock smith to cut it, and get
>>>the dealership to program it.
>>
>>
>> auto locksmiths can program too.
>> its NOT a dealer only thing...
>>
>>
>>>I know GM can be done without the tool, but it takes 1/2
>>>hour.
>>
>>
>> different tool..
>> doesn't apply to transponder technology.
>>
>
> I'm not following what your saying. GM can be done
> without any tool. got nothing to do with 'different' tool.
GM does have a tool. the dealers use it all the time.
GM also has on-board programing..
> Transponders are transponders. GM/Ford/Chrysler will all
> be using the same transponders.
wrong, GM/Ford/Chrysler do NOT all use transponder
tegnology.
--
"Key"
'Key
> 'Key wrote:
>> "Marsh Monster" <MarshMon...@aol.com> wrote in
>> message
>> news:1141113228.8...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>as it pertains to the topic at hand....
>>>I dug this link out.
>>>.
>>>.
>>>http://www.f150driver.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1582568&postcount=14
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> article does not apply to the subject.
>> vats key is not to be compared to a transponder key.
>>
>
> I didnt read the article. But VATS vs. PATS is
> irrelevant. Whats relevant if they built in a way to
> reprogram the system with or without a tool. GM PATS does
> not require a tool. I'm sure the dealership will be happy
> to claim otherwise. If you have a tool you can do it
> faster, but without a tool, you can still do it yourself.
>
it is relevant.
the subject is about Pats transponder key in a Ford.
GM is NOT Pats...
GM is Vats...
two different animals :-)
is it more clear to ya now ?
--
"Key"
Marsh Monster
.
=======
=======
==========
I'm afraid I don't fully understand your question in the format
that it's posted.
Feel free then.......
to rearrange the atoms and repost........
or.....
Feel free then....
to omit a word.....
then.......
maybe it will be clear to me
and
then...
i can give you an answer,
which I am eagerly wanting to do.
untill then.......
i'll check on the other threads in the post.
~:~
MarshMonster
~well then....that ortah git'r done then~
dnoyeB
> On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 11:54:28 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>>I'm not following what your saying. GM can be done without any tool.
>
> FORDS REQUIRE starting in 2000 for most models, this programming
> tool to access the on board computer to add new keys WHEN the
> keys are LOST>. no way around it..
>
> GM keys that HAVE a transponder do NOT require the hand held
> device to be plugged in in order to add keys when they are lost
> and new are cut.. BUT it takes 'longer time'..
>
>
>
>>got nothing to do with 'different' tool. Transponders are transponders.
>
>
>> GM/Ford/Chrysler will all be using the same transponders. Its the
>>software in their modules that will determine if you need a tool or not.
>
>
> there is a 'pin number for the on board computer to ACCESS IT,
> with the hand held programming tool needed in ADDITION..
>
>
>> I can't say that Ford does not need a tool because I don tknow there
>>system. But having written software for these systems I can safely say
>>that there is no reason for requiring a tool.
>
>
>
>>
>
> comes down to 'they want to maintain the BUSINESS, so THEY force
> the tool need..
>
> my local Ford deealer had to buy a new diagnostic tool in
> December.. it will also program new keys into the system..
> tool is $12,000 PLUS $1,000 a MONTH to update it..
>
> --Shiva--
>
>
OK I follow you completely. wasn't there a law passed meaning the OEMs
had to expose such codes to the aftermarket industry. Im surprised they
can do this, or were they only coerced to release the OBDII info publicly?
dnoyeB
>>I'm not following what your saying. GM can be done
>>without any tool. got nothing to do with 'different' tool.
>
>
> GM does have a tool. the dealers use it all the time.
> GM also has on-board programing..
>
>
>>Transponders are transponders. GM/Ford/Chrysler will all
>>be using the same transponders.
>
>
> wrong, GM/Ford/Chrysler do NOT all use transponder
> tegnology.
>
I have first hand knowledge about GM and Chrysler using it. Don't have
first hand about Ford, but I would strongly bet they do too. Its more
commonly known today as RFID.
The real question is who does not?
dnoyeB
>>I didnt read the article. But VATS vs. PATS is
>>irrelevant. Whats relevant if they built in a way to
>>reprogram the system with or without a tool. GM PATS does
>>not require a tool. I'm sure the dealership will be happy
>>to claim otherwise. If you have a tool you can do it
>>faster, but without a tool, you can still do it yourself.
>>
>
>
> it is relevant.
> the subject is about Pats transponder key in a Ford.
> GM is NOT Pats...
> GM is Vats...
> two different animals :-)
>
> is it more clear to ya now ?
GM uses PATS today. Did you mean to say otherwise? Its not like they
use standard terminology either. PATS is just 'passive anti theft
system.' I think GM calls it Passkey.
Suanne Lippman
"Nehmo Sergheyev" <neh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eDAMf.4224$Eg2...@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>A Ford Explorer 2001 that takes a transponder key.
>
>
>
> Let's say you have no keys, what would it take to get a new key made? Is
> this only possible at the Ford dealers? How much roughly will it cost?
>
I just had a key cut from the computer at a hardware store for $55. Works
fine.
The machine they use is pretty small; I suppose they could come out to you
for a time charge.
'Key
>>>
>>>I didnt read the article. But VATS vs. PATS is
>>>irrelevant. Whats relevant if they built in a way to
>>>reprogram the system with or without a tool. GM PATS
>>>does not require a tool. I'm sure the dealership will be
>>>happy to claim otherwise. If you have a tool you can do
>>>it faster, but without a tool, you can still do it
>>>yourself.
>>>
>>
>>
>> it is relevant.
>> the subject is about Pats transponder key in a Ford.
>> GM is NOT Pats...
>> GM is Vats...
>> two different animals :-)
>>
>> is it more clear to ya now ?
>
> GM uses PATS today. Did you mean to say otherwise? Its
> not like they use standard terminology either. PATS is
> just 'passive anti theft system.' I think GM calls it
> Passkey.
>
we are on the same page.
believe the terminology being used is causing
misunderstandings.
GM uses pk3 system and Magamos fixed code system.
vats system as late as 2004.
if an anti theft system is used at all ?
--
"Key"
'Key
news:1IsNf.1556$kg....@news02.roc.ny...
sounds like ya may have gotten a clone key made.
just cutting any transponder key would not work.
it would have to be programmed.
--
"Key"
neh...@hotmail.com
> I just had a key cut from the computer at a hardware store for $55. Works
> fine.
> The machine they use is pretty small; I suppose they could come out to you
> for a time charge.
With this vehicle, there's more to it than just cutting the metal of
the key. There are some vendors on eBay
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&satitle=transponder+ranger
that sell blank transponder keys, but in addition to the cutting, the
chip still has to be dealt with.
Are you sure it was a transponder key you duplicated? (And you realize
I'm starting with zero copies, don't you?) Everybody I've consulted
with locally believes only a Ford dealer has the equipment.
But if this hardware store can somehow do the job, I'd like to talk
with them - even if they're not local. What's the name or number of the
hardware store you used, please?
--
(||) Nehmo (||)
clifto
> IIRR, when they first came out with it.. TI who at that time
> made the chip was talking about 42? quadrillion codes without
> duplication.
Sounds like a 56-bit binary key (number), not a frequency operated thing.
Just a hunch.
--
All relevant people are pertinent.
All rude people are impertinent.
Therefore, no rude people are relevant.
-- Solomon W. Golomb
dnoyeB
> On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 20:51:06 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>>
>>OK I follow you completely. wasn't there a law passed meaning the OEMs
>>had to expose such codes to the aftermarket industry. Im surprised they
>>can do this, or were they only coerced to release the OBDII info publicly?
>>
>>--
>>Thank you,
>
> GM's cost a shy 3 grand..
> another that will do several vehicles, is about $7,000, plus
> required updates-about $2 a day..
>
You can get the Actron code readers from autozone and probably amazon
from about $99 - $300.
> some are NOT available at all- the transponders are 'hard wired'
> onto the on board computer..replace computer and comes with 2 new
> keys.. (ask the price..LOL)
> --Shiva--
>
>
Well the physical transponder is in the key. The board only has an
antenna. But some older systems forgot to create a way to get the
secret code out of the car's module. So if the car's module dies, then
the keys are thrown out. Newer systems store the code and can retrieve
it so you can program a new car module to an existing set of keys.
Note: The car's module has a private number, but the key also keeps its
own private number. They authenticate each other. So a key will not
reveal its private number unless the module reveals its first.
dnoyeB
> On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 20:57:36 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>>GM uses PATS today. Did you mean to say otherwise? Its not like they
>>use standard terminology either. PATS is just 'passive anti theft
>>system.' I think GM calls it Passkey.
>>
>>--
>>Thank you,
>
> models..
> key blanks can run to $50 each.
> 6 years BACK they used PATS..but are now dropping it in a lot of
> models..
> a 2000 Cad used a PK3 key- then it depended on the vehicle
> --Shiva--
>
>
Yea Im confused. I dont know all of terminology. I thought PATs was a
general term for a passive anti theft system and passkey was GMs term.
I always called it PK3 or passkey.
Roger_Nickel
> On Thu, 02 Mar 2006 09:15:14 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>>You can get the Actron code readers from autozone and probably amazon
>
>>from about $99 - $300.
>
>
> do the heavy stuff. reprogram a part, or add keys when lost..
> those are just the simple diagnostic tool.
>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Well the physical transponder is in the key. The board only has an
>>antenna. But some older systems forgot to create a way to get the
>>secret code out of the car's module. So if the car's module dies, then
>>the keys are thrown out. Newer systems store the code and can retrieve
>>it so you can program a new car module to an existing set of keys.
>>
>
> and the newer ones, the FIRST thing is erase the existing keys.,
> and then reload from scratch.
>
>
>
>>Note: The car's module has a private number, but the key also keeps its
>>own private number. They authenticate each other. So a key will not
>>reveal its private number unless the module reveals its first.
>
> -
>
>
> think its a one way thing.. key send its code-and if it matches
> whats stored,, then the car starts..
> --Shiva--
>
>
TI make both simple "electronic bar code" and challenge-response
type RFID chips take a look here for an interesting overveiw
http://rfidanalysis.org/.
dnoyeB
> On Thu, 02 Mar 2006 09:15:14 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>
>>from about $99 - $300.
>
>
> do the heavy stuff. reprogram a part, or add keys when lost..
> those are just the simple diagnostic tool.
>
Well you will never be able to reprogram a part. Thats recall type of
stuff only the Dealer will do. But OBDII does allow more than just
reading codes. You can manipulate some parts. its diagnostics, not
just code reader, though you pay more for the one tha tcan manipulate
than you do for the one that just reads.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Well the physical transponder is in the key. The board only has an
>>antenna. But some older systems forgot to create a way to get the
>>secret code out of the car's module. So if the car's module dies, then
>>the keys are thrown out. Newer systems store the code and can retrieve
>>it so you can program a new car module to an existing set of keys.
>>
>
> never seen a module die yet..
> and the newer ones, the FIRST thing is erase the existing keys.,
> and then reload from scratch.
>
>
>
>>Note: The car's module has a private number, but the key also keeps its
>>own private number. They authenticate each other. So a key will not
>>reveal its private number unless the module reveals its first.
>
> -
>
>>Thank you,
>
> think its a one way thing.. key send its code-and if it matches
> whats stored,, then the car starts..
> --Shiva--
>
>
No. Its two way. Older resistive system was one way. Newer RFID
system is two way. And its encrypted. Keyless Entry is one way, and it
suffers from the record-playback attack since you can make it transmit
its secret code just by pushing the button. But you cant get RFID to
give out its secret code just by asking.
dnoyeB
> On Thu, 02 Mar 2006 00:54:10 -0600, you wrote:
>
>
>>Sounds like a 56-bit binary key (number), not a frequency operated thing.
>>Just a hunch.
>
>
>
> electrical oil bouncces a signal into the key head, the chip
> charges its battery and answers back what it is..
> same thing as what Walmart is trying to get done..
> RFID.
>
> --Shiva--
>
>
Same thing that has been used for 'tagging' wild animals for years.
Neil Nelson
dnoyeB <Fa...@ThisOneIsFake.com> wrote:
> > and??? that tells you whats WRONG with the car-wont allow you to
> > do the heavy stuff. reprogram a part, or add keys when lost..
> > those are just the simple diagnostic tool.
> >
>
> Well you will never be able to reprogram a part.
Maybe*, but you can reprogram a PCM/TCM/BCM/GEM modules, etc.
(* I'm pretty sure that water pumps and wheel bearings are out)
> Thats recall type of
> stuff only the Dealer will do.
Hogwash. Buy a passthru device or the factory scan tool, buy a
subscription for the data and have at it.
> But OBDII does allow more than just
> reading codes. You can manipulate some parts. its diagnostics, not
> just code reader, though you pay more for the one tha tcan manipulate
> than you do for the one that just reads.
You mean like "steak costs more than hamburger?"
dnoyeB
> In article <99ydnUxdkc_...@comcast.com>,
> dnoyeB <Fa...@ThisOneIsFake.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> and??? that tells you whats WRONG with the car-wont allow you to
>>>do the heavy stuff. reprogram a part, or add keys when lost..
>>>those are just the simple diagnostic tool.
>>>
>>
>>Well you will never be able to reprogram a part.
>
>
> Maybe*, but you can reprogram a PCM/TCM/BCM/GEM modules, etc.
> (* I'm pretty sure that water pumps and wheel bearings are out)
>
>
Not sure what you mean by 'reprogram.' Perhaps you can alter some of
the configuration data changing performance and characteristics. But
you can not alter the software. That requires encrypted codes only the
OEM has and the Dealershp has. I'm not aware of any way around this. I
can't imagine the OEM would give out these codes either.
I think its just misunderstanding. You are probably just changing
values in ROM, eventhough they may advertise it as 'reprogramming.'
Which I suppose you could call it. But to me its not since I work for
automotive company and when Ford says to me reprogram they are talking
about changing softare not values.
>>Thats recall type of
>>stuff only the Dealer will do.
>
>
> Hogwash. Buy a passthru device or the factory scan tool, buy a
> subscription for the data and have at it.
>
yea, your talking about changing ROM values. Its OEM objective that
even in recall all they need to do is change ROM values. But true
reprogramming comes when something is wrong with the software and the
whole program needs changing. Today most OEMs require that ability out
of their modules.
>
>>But OBDII does allow more than just
>>reading codes. You can manipulate some parts. its diagnostics, not
>>just code reader, though you pay more for the one tha tcan manipulate
>>than you do for the one that just reads.
>
>
> You mean like "steak costs more than hamburger?"
Sure.
wayne c
readers like Actron's ( which are diagnostic tools for the systems of the
car controlled by the computer (module)), with a factory or aftermarket
scan/programming tool for scanning / programming. The factory tool does
"everything", engine management, computer diagnostics, key management, etc.
As 'Key would say, just my 2cents. Wayne
"dnoyeB" <Fa...@ThisOneIsFake.com> wrote in message
'Key
news:zm1Of.18525$2O6....@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
> All I can see from this thread is that some people are
> mistaking the code readers like Actron's ( which are
> diagnostic tools for the systems of the car controlled by
> the computer (module)), with a factory or aftermarket
> scan/programming tool for scanning / programming. The
> factory tool does "everything", engine management,
> computer diagnostics, key management, etc. As 'Key would
> say, just my 2cents. Wayne
I think the confusion stems from the mis-use of terminology.
or, the spelling if the word :-)
just my2ยข
g'day all
--
"Key"
---snip the confusion---
Neil Nelson
dnoyeB <Fa...@ThisOneIsFake.com> wrote:
So, you're saying that it's not reprogramming when just part of
the program is changed, only all of the program.
And if a module is sold with no programming what-so-ever, it's
not really reprogramming because there was no program to begin
with even though the whole program needs to be installed before
the module will function.
Which automotive company is it that you work for??
Neil Nelson
"wayne c" <wayne...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> All I can see from this thread is that some people are mistaking the code
> readers like Actron's ( which are diagnostic tools for the systems of the
> car controlled by the computer (module)), with a factory or aftermarket
> scan/programming tool for scanning / programming. The factory tool does
> "everything", engine management, computer diagnostics, key management, etc.
> As 'Key would say, just my 2cents. Wayne
Not 'some people,' just dnoyeB.
dnoyeB
Some code is executable and some is data. If you change what is
executable I call that reprogramming. Else I call it reconfiguring.
Fault codes and feature enable/disable is stored as data.
> And if a module is sold with no programming what-so-ever, it's
> not really reprogramming because there was no program to begin
> with even though the whole program needs to be installed before
> the module will function.
A module can't function without a program. If you can communicate with
it, it has software in it that is running. Its like having a computer
without an OS. Well its not LIKE it, it IS it.
>
> Which automotive company is it that you work for??
dnoyeB
> All I can see from this thread is that some people are mistaking the code
> readers like Actron's ( which are diagnostic tools for the systems of the
> car controlled by the computer (module)), with a factory or aftermarket
> scan/programming tool for scanning / programming. The factory tool does
> "everything", engine management, computer diagnostics, key management, etc.
> As 'Key would say, just my 2cents. Wayne
> "dnoyeB" <Fa...@ThisOneIsFake.com> wrote in message
> news:n_Wdnbbrsof...@comcast.com...
>
The Factory tool does a lot more than you think.
1. Reads fault codes
2. writes fault codes (erase)
3. Manipulating components like turning on or off EGR, etc.
4. Manipulate vehicle configuration like turning on one touch down
windows. Also disabling certain fault codes that may be setting improperly.
5. Changing the underlying software of the module.
Basic Actron can do 1 and 2. Higher model actron can do 3.
These aftermarket scan/programming tools perhaps can do 1,2, and 3. And
some of 4 as they discover the commands.
Only the OEM does 5. I don't even think the Dealership does 5. Key
management would fall under 4 which the dealership can do.
To a programmer like myself its not reprogramming unless you change the
program, not the values the program is reading/writing. But to others
its reprogramming if you do anything to cause it to behave differently.
So be it.
Neil Nelson
dnoyeB <Fa...@ThisOneIsFake.com> wrote:
> Some code is executable and some is data. If you change what is
> executable I call that reprogramming. Else I call it reconfiguring.
> Fault codes and feature enable/disable is stored as data.
So, you've examined every possible re-flash out there and
determined that not a single one of them contains (in your words)
an 'executable?"
> > And if a module is sold with no programming what-so-ever, it's
> > not really reprogramming because there was no program to begin
> > with even though the whole program needs to be installed before
> > the module will function.
>
> A module can't function without a program. If you can communicate with
> it, it has software in it that is running. Its like having a computer
> without an OS. Well its not LIKE it, it IS it.
Really? So how do they load any programming to begin with?
> >
> > Which automotive company is it that you work for??
Well?
dnoyeB
> In article <MtSdnQOw2Mb...@comcast.com>,
> dnoyeB <Fa...@ThisOneIsFake.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Some code is executable and some is data. If you change what is
>>executable I call that reprogramming. Else I call it reconfiguring.
>>Fault codes and feature enable/disable is stored as data.
>
>
> So, you've examined every possible re-flash out there and
> determined that not a single one of them contains (in your words)
> an 'executable?"
>
're-flash' refers to FlashROM. If you are changing the FlashROM then
99% of the time you are what I call reprogramming or changing the
executable. We can create programs that store data in FlashROM, but
Flash was meant to be written to a limited number of times. OEM
generally will not allow us to use FlashROM for non-static data.
>
>>>And if a module is sold with no programming what-so-ever, it's
>>>not really reprogramming because there was no program to begin
>>>with even though the whole program needs to be installed before
>>>the module will function.
>>
>>A module can't function without a program. If you can communicate with
>>it, it has software in it that is running. Its like having a computer
>>without an OS. Well its not LIKE it, it IS it.
>
>
> Really? So how do they load any programming to begin with?
>
>
There is a small piece of code that is always there and is not
changeable. Generally called the BIOS. Its built into the hardware.
One of its purposes is to enable you to store a program that will later run.
>>>Which automotive company is it that you work for??
>
>
> Well?
I certainly will not be saying. With as much as I talk about here the
lawyers would have fun making themselves 'usefull.' Not that I give out
secret info. But you never know what folks will try to claim is secret
these days. Its an American Company.
Neil Nelson
dnoyeB <Fa...@ThisOneIsFake.com> wrote:
> Neil Nelson wrote:
> > In article <MtSdnQOw2Mb...@comcast.com>,
> > dnoyeB <Fa...@ThisOneIsFake.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Some code is executable and some is data. If you change what is
> >>executable I call that reprogramming. Else I call it reconfiguring.
> >>Fault codes and feature enable/disable is stored as data.
> >
> >
> > So, you've examined every possible re-flash out there and
> > determined that not a single one of them contains (in your words)
> > an 'executable?"
> >
>
> 're-flash' refers to FlashROM. If you are changing the FlashROM then
> 99% of the time you are what I call reprogramming or changing the
> executable. We can create programs that store data in FlashROM, but
> Flash was meant to be written to a limited number of times. OEM
> generally will not allow us to use FlashROM for non-static data.
So, it is re-programming.
>
> >
> >>>And if a module is sold with no programming what-so-ever, it's
> >>>not really reprogramming because there was no program to begin
> >>>with even though the whole program needs to be installed before
> >>>the module will function.
> >>
> >>A module can't function without a program. If you can communicate with
> >>it, it has software in it that is running. Its like having a computer
> >>without an OS. Well its not LIKE it, it IS it.
> >
> >
> > Really? So how do they load any programming to begin with?
> >
> >
>
> There is a small piece of code that is always there and is not
> changeable. Generally called the BIOS. Its built into the hardware.
> One of its purposes is to enable you to store a program that will later run.
>
> >>>Which automotive company is it that you work for??
> >
> >
> > Well?
>
>
> I certainly will not be saying. With as much as I talk about here the
> lawyers would have fun making themselves 'usefull.' Not that I give out
> secret info. But you never know what folks will try to claim is secret
> these days. Its an American Company.
Considering that you've been talking in circles, that is probably
a wise choice.
Floyd and Wanda Tucker
to do most cars but not the gm,s the tools well cost you 5,000.00 up to do
all the car we got an ngs tool for fordthat was 4,000.00 and dart
1,000.00and a t-code tool that takes the place of the other 2 that i would
like to see
"Marsh Monster" <MarshMon...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1141255979....@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
> .
> .
> =======
> =======
> 'Key wrote:
>> "Marsh Monster" <MarshMon...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:1141133650.8...@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
>> > .
>> > .
>> > TOP POST
>> > =======
>> > =======
>> > Thank you,
>> > but I am very much aware of the differences in the two
>> > systems.......and the operational parameters of the two.
>> >
>>
>> then why did you say
>> "as it pertains to the topic at hand" ?
>>
>> --
>> "Key"
> ==========
> ==========
> I'm afraid I don't fully understand your question in the format
> that it's posted.
>
> Feel free then.......
> to rearrange the atoms and repost........
>
> or.....
>
> Feel free then....
> to omit a word.....
>
> then.......
> maybe it will be clear to me
> and
> then...
>
> i can give you an answer,
> which I am eagerly wanting to do.
>
> untill then.......
>
> i'll check on the other threads in the post.
>
>
>
> ~:~
> MarshMonster
> ~well then....that ortah git'r done then~
>
dnoyeB
>
> Considering that you've been talking in circles, that is probably
> a wise choice.
I can't believe I wasted this much time talking to a troll that has not
a single positive/usefull thing to say.
pkurtz2
Nehmo,
I am a 2000 Ford Ranger Owner, suffice it to say you have to have 2 keys if
you want to program a key for yourself. If you dont, well see you at the
dealership. I am also located in Eastern Kansas, but it works the same no
matter where you are in the CONTINENTAL UNITED STATES. I am not exactly sure
what the newest cars have on them now, but that DOESNT MATTER. We are
talking about a '01' Ford Explorer, not a GM vehicle. This damn post has
gotten out of control here. If you have 2 programmed keys for the vehicle in
question then it will take about 10min to program a new key (UP TO 8 KEYS
CAN BE PROGRAMMED) I have done this on my truck so I can have 4 keys, its
simple and if you can READ the owners manual, then this post can DIE. Ok
PK
"Nehmo Sergheyev" <neh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eDAMf.4224$Eg2...@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>A Ford Explorer 2001 that takes a transponder key.
>
>
>
> Let's say you have no keys, what would it take to get a new key made? Is
> this only possible at the Ford dealers? How much roughly will it cost?
>
> Is there any workaround? Is it possible to break the steering lock and
> enable the ignition?
>
>
>
> I'm in Kansas City Kansas.
'Key
news:KmDTf.138889$0G.128520@dukeread10...
> Yep I am goin to TOP POST THIS.
if your going to put it that way and also cross-post ?
---snip---
<ploink>