350- 3 flywheels, 8 starters
PBroussard
I'm at my wit's end here. We have an old Chevy work truck with a 77- '79 350
block in it. Don't know how many miles is on the motor, but it's a lot. We keep
going thru starters and flywheels regularly. We've tried with shims 1/8",
without shims. The current setup without shims did well for 3 weeks, then enges
of the bendix and teeth of flywhell are chewed up. I then shimmed the outside
of the starter, I have shim to 5/32" to close the gap to the flywheel, leaving
the other side with no shims. There's a hesitation and whining sound now, (no
wonder) Something is not lining up right, and I haven't a clue what to do. We
had success several times for a few weeks, then something changes, as it starts
to wear down again Got the serial # GM3970010 off the block, went round and
round with the parts stores, (several) making sure the parts are for a 79 350.
Any pointers on figuring this beast out? Currently using a FRA100 flywheel and
a Ultima starter ULT 03-0367 from HI-LO O'reilley.
Broussard Painting Contractors, friend of Bill's
"Careful. We don't want to learn from this." -- Calvin
*delete obvious spam block to reply*
Dave Allen
---) wrote:
>HI THERE!!!!!
>
>You ARE NOT CRAZY!!!!
>
>
>I quit working in a starter shop in 89, and well remember that
>particular problem.... You wont like the answer...
>
>if memory serves me right, 1 of the 2 holes, the outside one MAYBE...
>this is probably an offset bolt hole starter??? IN THE BLOCK is
>misdrilled...
>throws the starter into other than a right angle to the flywheel..
>there IS a fix.... IF.
>You can find SOMEBODY with a set of Delco Remey Starter books.. each
>book is 4-5 " thick in one of those bolt/sliding cover post
>arrangements.. the fix is defined in the book, has to do with using
>one of the starter case bolts and fabricating a brace from it to the
>block.
>
>OTHERWISE.... put the starter on the truck WITHOUT THE SOLENOID..
>pull the solenoid thro lever and engage the starter teeth into the
>flywheel... THE MAXIMUM space between the bottom of a starter tooth
>and the top of a flywheel tooth is the thickness of a standard metal
>paper clip wire.. NO MORE, NO LESS.. that's what you are aiming for...
>while there, look and see if the starter 'looks' a right angle to the
>flywheel.. the hole in question was done by 1 manufacturing plant, and
>is if memory is right, off .050"
>
>have fun.
>
Very interesting post. I also worked in a starter/alternator shop one
sujmmer. I have a similar problem with an olds 455 -- approx 1976
vintage. I've gone through a number of starters, shims, etc., with no
luck. On close observation, I detected an out of plane (not out of
round) flywheel, that moves fore and aft almost 1/4 inch when
rotating. I belive rebuilt starters every couple of years are
cheaper.
da...@cris.com
>
>
>I quit working in a starter shop in 89, and well remember that
>particular problem.... You wont like the answer...
>
>if memory serves me right, 1 of the 2 holes, the outside one MAYBE...
>this is probably an offset bolt hole starter??? IN THE BLOCK is
>misdrilled...
>throws the starter into other than a right angle to the flywheel..
>there IS a fix.... IF.
>You can find SOMEBODY with a set of Delco Remey Starter books.. each
>book is 4-5 " thick in one of those bolt/sliding cover post
>arrangements.. the fix is defined in the book, has to do with using
>one of the starter case bolts and fabricating a brace from it to the
>block.
Thats 1 fix I've heard of also. In fact the early 80's small blocks on
Z-28s used to COME STOCK w/a strut/brace. One end connected to a
starter case bolt and the other end to a small bolt on the bottom of
the block. Reduced starter flex/misalignment. In fact had a few
shadetree friends that had this setup and when they went to change
starters after some miles, they would leave the brace off.
Sure enough, they were buying starters again shortly thereafter.
>OTHERWISE.... put the starter on the truck WITHOUT THE SOLENOID..
>pull the solenoid thro lever and engage the starter teeth into the
>flywheel... THE MAXIMUM space between the bottom of a starter tooth
>and the top of a flywheel tooth is the thickness of a standard metal
>paper clip wire.. NO MORE, NO LESS.. that's what you are aiming for...
>while there, look and see if the starter 'looks' a right angle to the
>flywheel.. the hole in question was done by 1 manufacturing plant, and
>is if memory is right, off .050"
>
>have fun.
>
Seen a starter/alt shop diagnose this tough problem before by using
machinists blueing to get a pattern on the teeth. Same stuff a lot of
differential guys use for ring/pinion gear wear patterns. This takes a
lot of the guess work out of shimming.
Danny
da...@cris.com
D.M.
were made in Mexico and maybe some were made in Canada. The orange Chevy
engines made in the USA rarely had this problem unless they had been fitted
with a later model starter. Blue Chevy engines usually had this problem. The
problem is that the machining of the block where the starter mounts on is
not always constant between blocks and throws off the starter alignment.
Improper starter alignment causes broken teeth on the starter and flywheel,
noise, broken starter housings, broken starter bolts and broken engine block
castings. There is also different flywheels for starter combinations. I
can't remember exactly but I think there is a 150 and a 160 tooth flywheel.
This must match up to the starter which can have 2 long bolts inline or
offset, or a long and short bolt inline or offset.
The best thing I found when checking starter alignment is to remove the
starter solenoid, bolt the starter to the block, pull the plunger that is on
the starter forward (toward the radiator). This will engage the 2 gears.
When the gears are meshed, a paper clip should fit inbetween the 2 meshed
gears. If the paper clip does not fit, you have to use shims between the
starter and the block. If the paper clip is too loose, you have to remove
shims. If the paper clip is too loose and there are no shims installed, you
can add shims to the outer bolt to tip the starter only if the starter bolts
are inline, if the bolts are offset, adding shims to one bolt will cause the
starter to sit crooked and cause more problems later. In this case I used to
grind the aluminum starter housing mounting pad down evenly. If there is a
lot of clearance between the 2 meshed teeth, you may have to try a different
starter.
Also, rather than buying a starter from a parts store, you should buy it
directly from a starter rebuilder. They can help you a lot more than a parts
store can. And if the starter is burnt out and does not work, but, when it
did work, it sounded o.k., then get the starter rebuilt using the same
original housing. This will prevent misalignment.
PBroussard wrote in message
<19981216194713...@ngol06.aol.com>...
Doug Sogolow
wrote:
>
>I'm at my wit's end here. We have an old Chevy work truck with a 77- '79 350
>block in it. Don't know how many miles is on the motor, but it's a lot. We keep
>going thru starters and flywheels regularly. We've tried with shims 1/8",
>without shims. The current setup without shims did well for 3 weeks, then enges
>of the bendix and teeth of flywhell are chewed up.
Qualifications to post:
I have owned a starter-alternator rebuilding shop since 1977. ASE
certified 10 years.
Opinion:
You say the edges of the drive and the flywheel are chewed. If I
understand you correctly, you mean that both of these gears are milled
to a smaller diameter, with the drive in particular now being smaller
in diameter about a 1/3 or halfway back its' length? If this is the
case, the starter is mounted too far away from the ring gear. I have
had great success (with these mis-machined blocks) in the past by
milling 1/8" from the flange surface of the starter drive end housing,
then shimming it back until it sounded right. Remember, when you mill
this surface, not only does the starter go 'up', it goes inward, for
all intents and purposes. Check this out. I also likes the post from
D.M. above, but if you have a one piece bell housing, you won't be
able to measure the engagement.
For the record, the 153 tooth flywheel takes the straight-across bolt
pattern with one long/one short bolt; the 168 tooth flywheel takes the
staggered bolt pattern with bolts that are equal length. As the others
have said, PUT THE FRONT BRACKET ON.
Doug
PBroussard
Thanks for all the replies. It's very much appreciated. Now the stepson's
Celica is dead in the water, I'll have to get that one done before tackling the
Chevy.
In article <367d1b11...@news.connix.com>, dm...@connix.com (Doug Sogolow)
writes:
>Qualifications to post:
>I have owned a starter-alternator rebuilding shop since 1977. ASE
>certified 10 years.
>Opinion:
>You say the edges of the drive and the flywheel are chewed. If I
>understand you correctly, you mean that both of these gears are milled
>to a smaller diameter, with the drive in particular now being smaller
>in diameter about a 1/3 or halfway back its' length? If this is the
>case, the starter is mounted too far away from the ring gear. I have
>had great success (with these mis-machined blocks) in the past by
>milling 1/8" from the flange surface of the starter drive end housing,
>then shimming it back until it sounded right. Remember, when you mill
>this surface, not only does the starter go 'up', it goes inward, for
>all intents and purposes. Check this out. I also likes the post from
>D.M. above, but if you have a one piece bell housing, you won't be
>able to measure the engagement.
>For the record, the 153 tooth flywheel takes the straight-across bolt
>pattern with one long/one short bolt; the 168 tooth flywheel takes the
>staggered bolt pattern with bolts that are equal length. As the others
>have said, PUT THE FRONT BRACKET ON.
>
>Doug
Broussard Painting Contractors, friend of Bill's
PBroussard
To all who posted replies to this problem-
Thanks for your help. We ended up milling the starter flange surface as was
suggested, seems to be in working order now.
Once again, thanks for your suggestions!
Paul
Steve
Texas. Know him?
Tu...@mymom.gis.net
Only since we've seen it several times.
David
Doug Sogolow
The dowel pins that locate the bellhousing?
They have no effect in this case, considering that this is a
block-mounted starter. Bellhousing alignment is only critical when
using a flange-mounted starter that bolts to the bellhousing.
Doug