Can a starter motor get "weak"?

[Jack]

My 87 Dak is acting like the battery is weak, but it has a Sears
Diehard, less than a year old, and all the cells are full and check out
good with a specific gravity tester. The voltage at the battery is 14.5
volts when idling and 13.25 volts after charging on a 10 amp charger. I
cleaned both ends of the battery cable, at the starter, solenoid, engine
ground and, of course, the battery. Now, after charging, the battery is
good for maybe 4 or 5 starts! The only thing I can think of that might
be at fault is the starter motor, but I never experienced a starter
getting weak. They have always just burned out like a light bulb.

Any thoughts?

Thanks
Jack

[jim beam]

sure a motor can get "weak" - contacts, bearings, brushes - all can be
problems. the same with other electrical issues like ground leads
corroding at the chassis, motor connection, etc. check, clean and/or
replace as necessary.


--
fact check required

[Vic Smith]

Every failed starter I can remember gave me fair warning by hard
cranking. Usually about a week or so.
And every time I ignored it until it stranded me.
Three times.
You can be smarter and just replace it.

[Jack]

I will pick up a rebuilt tomorrow!

[Gene]

"Jack" <@noway.com> wrote in message news:kc7tgn$3a9$1...@dont-email.me...

Pull and ground the high tension coil wire from the distributor,
is so equipped, if not, pull the fuel pump fuse. While cranking
the engine, measure the voltage at the battery posts. If the
voltage does not drop below 9.6 volts with a fully charged
battery, the battery is likely good but further testing (such as
a cable voltage drop test, which should not exceed about a
quater volt each) is in order before confirming a starter issue.

[Jack]

Thanks, Gene... there's absolutely no voltage drop across the cables and
a voltage drop from 13 to 10 while cranking the engine with the coil
wire removed. I am going to change the motor tomorrow. I can get a
rebuilt at O'Reilly for $35. This is a 87 Dak which I've had since new
and this will be the fourth starter motor. I think this one has lasted
longer than any of the others.

Jack

[Jack]

It just occurred to me that I conducted the cable voltage drop test
without cranking the engine, thus it is invalid. I will try again
tomorrow doing it the right way.

[Nate Nagel]

I've experienced this on old/very high mileage cars... if the
bushings/bearings in the starter motor get draggy, current goes up and
speed goes down, might be time for a rebuild. Sadly finding component
parts for newer model starter motors is difficult for a consumer so
unless you're like me and are used to working on 50's and 60's cars your
best bet is to likely find a good local auto electric shop that does
their own rebuilds in house, and pay through the nose. This will likely
require you to leave the starter at their shop for a couple days so
before you start source one from a junkyard. That one might actually
turn out to be in good shape so you may not have to actually have your
old one rebuilt.

I can't recommend parts store remans unless you get one from a higher
end parts store like NAPA. I've had hit or miss luck with them. The
worst was one that I bought - I don't remember what parts store, just
that it was a discount chain up in Michigan that we don't have here on
the east coast - because I was in a bind with an old GTI and needed one
right away and they were the only ones that had one in stock; when
trying to push on one of the .250" faston connectors onto the solenoid,
the terminal broke because it was made of cheap Chinese poop and fail,
and the store wouldn't take it back. I'd already proactively removed my
original starter and turned it in for a core, so I couldn't even steal
my old solenoid. That's the last time I turned in my core before
verifying that the new part was not only dimensionally identical but
actually *worked*... (lessons!)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

[m6onz5a]

Get a new starter or a rebuilt one. Getting yours rebuilt is expensive
and the parts they use aren't any better than buying one from a parts
store. Plus you don't know if they completely rebuilding the starter,
or just fixing what is wrong with it. We've deal with a local rebuild
shop and we've had starters go bad after 6 months from them. Plus the
warranty from a parts store will be better as well.

[Gene]

"Jack" <@noway.com> wrote in message news:kc896r$o5p$1...@dont-email.me...

Yes, that test also needs to be performed during a high current
condition, my apologies for not having been more clear. At very
low current (as needed for the meter to read), the measured
voltage drop, as a product of current and resistance (V=IR),
would generally be negligible even with a faulty cable.

[Gene]

"m6onz5a" <cor...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:5c83980e-cbed-4a7e...@10g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...

****************************

Were it a vehicle I intended to use and retain for years, I'd
purchase (as I have, an untold number of times) a rebuilt,
lifetime warrantied unit from one of the discount parts stores,
e.g., Advance Auto Parts, Auto Zone, O'Reilly Auto Parts ...
and most definitely would NOT pay ANY premium by
purchasing from NAPA, a dealer, an independent rebuilder ...

[jim beam]

you must like working on your car a lot. the component quality used in
rebuilds from the discount parts stores is absolutely abysmal. they
don't last. the only reason they offer "lifetime warranty" is that
statistically, most people don't go back, and those that do get sick of
repeated failures so they buy again somewhere else.

most starter/alternator manufacturers do full factory rebuilds that are
as good as new. if you buy those rebuilds at the dealer you'll be
charged through the nose, but if you find the right outlet, you can
often get them at the same kind of price as a cheapo rebuild. i got a
genuine denso rebuild for my civic, with full denso warranty, from
amazon for the same price as the cheapo 5-minute crap you'll find at the
parts stores. there's no reason it shouldn't last the 20 years that the
original did.


--
fact check required

[Gene]

"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:kc9j2l$21j$1...@dont-email.me...

That's the hype alright, and my decades of personal experience
in employing their replacement parts proves it to be nothing less
than absolute, unmitigated bullshit.

> most starter/alternator manufacturers do full factory rebuilds that are as
> good as new. if you buy those rebuilds at the dealer you'll be charged
> through the nose, but if you find the right outlet, you can often get them
> at the same kind of price as a cheapo rebuild. i got a genuine denso
> rebuild for my civic, with full denso warranty, from amazon for the same
> price as the cheapo 5-minute crap you'll find at the parts stores.
> there's no reason it shouldn't last the 20 years that the original did.

When time is not a factor, in my retirement these days I
purchase from the least expensive supplier I've found,
http://RockAuto.com and have yet to experience an issue.

[jim beam]

good for you. /my/ experience as someone that's done this for a living
is that having to fix something under warranty costs me money. i want
to fit something that's /not/ coming back.

besides, you didn't read what i said - in the case above, the oem
genuine rebuild was the /same price/ as the cheapo crap. why anyone,
even a retired dude with all the time in the world, would /want/ to
replace with inferior quality for the same price is something that
simply can't be explained in terms of logic or economics.


--
fact check required

[m6onz5a]

On Jan 5, 11:23 am, "Gene" <gene.e.y...@home.com> wrote:
> "jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>
> news:kc9j2l$21j$1...@dont-email.me...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 01/05/2013 07:04 AM, Gene wrote:

> >> "m6onz5a"<corv...@comcast.net>  wrote in message

> purchase from the least expensive supplier I've found,http://RockAuto.comand have yet to experience an issue.

www.partsgeek.com also has name brands at good prices.

[Scott Dorsey]

In article <kc9k1n$2gv$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Gene <gene....@home.com> wrote:
>"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>>

>>> Were it a vehicle I intended to use and retain for years, I'd
>>> purchase (as I have, an untold number of times) a rebuilt,
>>> lifetime warrantied unit from one of the discount parts stores,
>>> e.g., Advance Auto Parts, Auto Zone, O'Reilly Auto Parts ...
>>> and most definitely would NOT pay ANY premium by
>>> purchasing from NAPA, a dealer, an independent rebuilder ...
>>
>> you must like working on your car a lot. the component quality used in
>> rebuilds from the discount parts stores is absolutely abysmal. they don't
>> last. the only reason they offer "lifetime warranty" is that
>> statistically, most people don't go back, and those that do get sick of
>> repeated failures so they buy again somewhere else.
>
>That's the hype alright, and my decades of personal experience
>in employing their replacement parts proves it to be nothing less
>than absolute, unmitigated bullshit.

I'm sorry, but this time Jim Beam is actually right.

Now, there are some good parts store rebuilds out there, but most of the
stuff I have seen from the chain stores are just awful. What's worse is
that there are actual counterfeits out there; I have seen some "Bosch"
alternators with metal that would never have passed muster at the Tonka
factory let alone Bosch.

Buying from a rebuilder doesn't guarantee the parts they use aren't crap
also, but your chances are better and you can ask to see what they are
putting in.

When the original bushings are bronze and the replacements are cartridge
brass, it's time to go elsewhere. There is a LOT of absolute garbage out
there, and the truth is that it's not all at the chain stores but it can
certainly be found there.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Gene]

"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message

news:kc9ke9$bdd$1...@dont-email.me...

I FORMERLY did this work for a living in the 60's & 70's,
possibly while you were still in a cradle, if that, before finishing
my degree and taking a position as an engineer with CTC. I'm
well aware that any vendor can, and in fact does (and some
more than others), periodically supply a faulty part and that
price alone is no guarantee of quality AND some of the same
vendors supply items bearing the exact same part numbers to
NAPA, mail order, "discount stores" and even dealers. I most
often locally purchase lifetime warrantied parts when that option
is available and usually refrain from buying either the cheapest
or the most expensive alternative when procuring via mail order.

[Gene]

"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:kc9ne4$5jp$1...@panix2.panix.com...

> In article <kc9k1n$2gv$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Gene <gene....@home.com>
> wrote:
>>"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> Were it a vehicle I intended to use and retain for years, I'd
>>>> purchase (as I have, an untold number of times) a rebuilt,
>>>> lifetime warrantied unit from one of the discount parts stores,
>>>> e.g., Advance Auto Parts, Auto Zone, O'Reilly Auto Parts ...
>>>> and most definitely would NOT pay ANY premium by
>>>> purchasing from NAPA, a dealer, an independent rebuilder ...
>>>
>>> you must like working on your car a lot. the component quality used in
>>> rebuilds from the discount parts stores is absolutely abysmal. they
>>> don't
>>> last. the only reason they offer "lifetime warranty" is that
>>> statistically, most people don't go back, and those that do get sick of
>>> repeated failures so they buy again somewhere else.
>>
>>That's the hype alright, and my decades of personal experience
>>in employing their replacement parts proves it to be nothing less
>>than absolute, unmitigated bullshit.
>
> I'm sorry, but this time Jim Beam is actually right.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

> Now, there are some good parts store rebuilds out there, but most of the
> stuff I have seen from the chain stores are just awful. What's worse is
> that there are actual counterfeits out there;

Which have also been found in the stores of the most respected
manufacturers and on the shelves of the most distinguished dealers.

> I have seen some "Bosch"
> alternators with metal that would never have passed muster at the Tonka
> factory let alone Bosch.

I'm sorry but anecdotal reports do not trump my personal,
professional experience.

> Buying from a rebuilder doesn't guarantee the parts they use aren't crap
> also, but your chances are better and you can ask to see what they are
> putting in.

I carefully visually inspect and bench test new parts when
feasible and my experience, along with familiarity with any
given vendor, allows me to make an effective judgment
call. And in any case, most replacement parts are installed
on non-new vehicles that have had long years and many
miles put on the OEM unit already and probably won't
again be repaired or require replacement.

> When the original bushings are bronze and the replacements are cartridge
> brass, it's time to go elsewhere. There is a LOT of absolute garbage out
> there, and the truth is that it's not all at the chain stores but it can
> certainly be found there.
> --scott

From the automotive to the medical fields and beyond, faulty
items can be and are sold to the unsuspecting quite irrespective
of the price that is paid or from whom they are purchased.

[jim beam]

On 01/05/2013 10:45 AM, Gene wrote:
<snip crap>

> From the automotive to the medical fields and beyond, faulty
> items can be and are sold to the unsuspecting quite irrespective
> of the price that is paid or from whom they are purchased.

yeah. but that is no excuse justifying why the ignorant would buy
inferior aftermarket crap at the same price as oem, just because some
high street retailer puts a "lifetime warranty" on it in full knowledge
that most people won't be able to use it.


--
fact check required

[jim beam]

> I FORMERLY did this work for a living in the 60's& 70's,

> possibly while you were still in a cradle, if that, before finishing
> my degree and taking a position as an engineer with CTC.

oh my gosh. should i be intimidated? or should i pull my johnson out
as well so we can both measure up?

> I'm
> well aware that any vendor can, and in fact does (and some
> more than others), periodically supply a faulty part and that
> price alone is no guarantee of quality AND some of the same
> vendors supply items bearing the exact same part numbers to
> NAPA, mail order, "discount stores" and even dealers. I most
> often locally purchase lifetime warrantied parts when that option
> is available and usually refrain from buying either the cheapest
> or the most expensive alternative when procuring via mail order.

you're wriggling and squirming - there is NO reason to buy cheap
inferior aftermarket crap, which you would acknowledge if you'd ever
bothered [in your "professional engineering" experience] to take that
stuff apart and were honest enough to admit to doing, when you could buy
genuine oem for the same price.


--
fact check required

[Gene]

"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message

news:kc9t64$5j2$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 01/05/2013 10:45 AM, Gene wrote:
> <snip crap>
>> From the automotive to the medical fields and beyond, faulty
>> items can be and are sold to the unsuspecting quite irrespective
>> of the price that is paid or from whom they are purchased.
>
> yeah. but that is no excuse justifying why the ignorant would buy
> inferior aftermarket crap at the same price as oem,

You'd have a point, had anyone made your strawman claim.

> just because some high street retailer puts a "lifetime warranty" on it in
> full knowledge that most people won't be able to use it.

just because some ripoff retailer puts a "higher price" on
it in full knowledge that most poseurs won't be able to
recognize they're needlessly paying more than necessary.

[Gene]

"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message

news:kc9t7g$5j2$2...@dont-email.me...

>>> good for you. /my/ experience as someone that's done this for a living
>>> is
>>> that having to fix something under warranty costs me money. i want to
>>> fit
>>> something that's /not/ coming back.
>>>
>>> besides, you didn't read what i said - in the case above, the oem
>>> genuine
>>> rebuild was the /same price/ as the cheapo crap. why anyone, even a
>>> retired dude with all the time in the world, would /want/ to replace
>>> with
>>> inferior quality for the same price is something that simply can't be
>>> explained in terms of logic or economics.
>>
>> I FORMERLY did this work for a living in the 60's& 70's,
>> possibly while you were still in a cradle, if that, before finishing
>> my degree and taking a position as an engineer with CTC.
>
> oh my gosh. should i be intimidated?

Be intimidated if you'd like.

> or should i pull my johnson out as
> well so we can both measure up?

My statement was in obvious response to your risible
pretense that you possessed some magical knowledge
or experience that I didn't in the subject at hand.

>> I'm
>> well aware that any vendor can, and in fact does (and some
>> more than others), periodically supply a faulty part and that
>> price alone is no guarantee of quality AND some of the same
>> vendors supply items bearing the exact same part numbers to
>> NAPA, mail order, "discount stores" and even dealers. I most
>> often locally purchase lifetime warrantied parts when that option
>> is available and usually refrain from buying either the cheapest
>> or the most expensive alternative when procuring via mail order.
>
> you're wriggling and squirming - there is NO reason to buy cheap inferior
> aftermarket crap,

Nice strawman, no one has claimed that there is a
reason to buy "cheap inferior aftermarket crap".

> which you would acknowledge if you'd ever bothered [in
> your "professional engineering" experience]

The reference was clearly to my decades long professional
experience as an automotive mechanic.

>to take that stuff apart and
> were honest enough to admit to doing, when you could buy genuine oem for
> the same price.

Your implication that OEM is necessarily superior to
aftermarket is laughably naive to anyone competent.

[jim beam]

On 01/05/2013 11:51 AM, Gene wrote:
> "jim beam"<m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:kc9t64$5j2$1...@dont-email.me...
>> On 01/05/2013 10:45 AM, Gene wrote:
>> <snip crap>
>>> From the automotive to the medical fields and beyond, faulty
>>> items can be and are sold to the unsuspecting quite irrespective
>>> of the price that is paid or from whom they are purchased.
>>
>> yeah. but that is no excuse justifying why the ignorant would buy
>> inferior aftermarket crap at the same price as oem,
>
> You'd have a point, had anyone made your strawman claim.

pointing out that you don't know what you're talking about is not a
strawman, it's simply statement of fact based on your own words. if you
don't like it, don't say stuff that can be so trivially contradicted.

>
>> just because some high street retailer puts a "lifetime warranty" on it in
>> full knowledge that most people won't be able to use it.
>
> just because some ripoff retailer puts a "higher price" on
> it in full knowledge that most poseurs won't be able to
> recognize they're needlessly paying more than necessary.

apparently, that doesn't stop idiots thinking that because they paid
more, they're getting more!


--
fact check required

[jim beam]

On 01/05/2013 11:54 AM, Gene wrote:
> "jim beam"<m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:kc9t7g$5j2$2...@dont-email.me...
>>>> good for you. /my/ experience as someone that's done this for a living
>>>> is
>>>> that having to fix something under warranty costs me money. i want to
>>>> fit
>>>> something that's /not/ coming back.
>>>>
>>>> besides, you didn't read what i said - in the case above, the oem
>>>> genuine
>>>> rebuild was the /same price/ as the cheapo crap. why anyone, even a
>>>> retired dude with all the time in the world, would /want/ to replace
>>>> with
>>>> inferior quality for the same price is something that simply can't be
>>>> explained in terms of logic or economics.
>>>
>>> I FORMERLY did this work for a living in the 60's& 70's,
>>> possibly while you were still in a cradle, if that, before finishing
>>> my degree and taking a position as an engineer with CTC.
>>
>> oh my gosh. should i be intimidated?
>
> Be intimidated if you'd like.

uh, i'm not. apparently missed the sarcasm.

>
>> or should i pull my johnson out as
>> well so we can both measure up?
>
> My statement was in obvious response to your risible
> pretense that you possessed some magical knowledge
> or experience that I didn't in the subject at hand.

if i can tell the difference between a quality oem rebuild and one made
with inferior after-market components, then i apparently possess
something you don't.

>
>>> I'm
>>> well aware that any vendor can, and in fact does (and some
>>> more than others), periodically supply a faulty part and that
>>> price alone is no guarantee of quality AND some of the same
>>> vendors supply items bearing the exact same part numbers to
>>> NAPA, mail order, "discount stores" and even dealers. I most
>>> often locally purchase lifetime warrantied parts when that option
>>> is available and usually refrain from buying either the cheapest
>>> or the most expensive alternative when procuring via mail order.
>>
>> you're wriggling and squirming - there is NO reason to buy cheap inferior
>> aftermarket crap,
>
> Nice strawman, no one has claimed that there is a
> reason to buy "cheap inferior aftermarket crap".

it's no strawman - you were trying to justify paying the same price for
inferior aftermarket as oem.

>
>> which you would acknowledge if you'd ever bothered [in
>> your "professional engineering" experience]
>
> The reference was clearly to my decades long professional
> experience as an automotive mechanic.

so what are you now - an auto mechanic, or an engineering grad?
you're not decades as a bachelors/masters graduate regressing to auto
tech, thus you're clearly not one and probably not either.

>
>> to take that stuff apart and
>> were honest enough to admit to doing, when you could buy genuine oem for
>> the same price.
>
> Your implication that OEM is necessarily superior to
> aftermarket is laughably naive to anyone competent.

i'm confused - when you said "I'd purchase (as I have, an untold number

of times) a rebuilt, lifetime warrantied unit from one of the discount

parts stores, Advance Auto Parts, Auto Zone, O'Reilly Auto Parts", i
thought you'd actually shopped at one of those establishments and were
advocating their product based on experience. clearly you haven't
because if you had and you'd seen machine screws replaced with
self-tapping, seen copper slip rings replaced with aluminum, seen
rectifiers and/or controllers replaced with under-rated components, and
seen chinese bearings, i'd have thought you, as an "engineer/vehicle
tech" would know what you're looking at.


--
fact check required

[Gene]

"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message

news:kca1ec$114$1...@dont-email.me...

Whoosh! Two non sequiturs in a row. You must be so proud.

[Gene]

"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message

news:kca1ju$30d$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 01/05/2013 11:54 AM, Gene wrote:
>> "jim beam"<m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>> news:kc9t7g$5j2$2...@dont-email.me...
>>>>> good for you. /my/ experience as someone that's done this for a
>>>>> living
>>>>> is
>>>>> that having to fix something under warranty costs me money. i want to
>>>>> fit
>>>>> something that's /not/ coming back.
>>>>>
>>>>> besides, you didn't read what i said - in the case above, the oem
>>>>> genuine
>>>>> rebuild was the /same price/ as the cheapo crap. why anyone, even a
>>>>> retired dude with all the time in the world, would /want/ to replace
>>>>> with
>>>>> inferior quality for the same price is something that simply can't be
>>>>> explained in terms of logic or economics.
>>>>
>>>> I FORMERLY did this work for a living in the 60's& 70's,
>>>> possibly while you were still in a cradle, if that, before finishing
>>>> my degree and taking a position as an engineer with CTC.
>>>
>>> oh my gosh. should i be intimidated?
>>
>> Be intimidated if you'd like.
>
> uh, i'm not. apparently missed the sarcasm.

Apparently, you have.

>>> or should i pull my johnson out as
>>> well so we can both measure up?
>>
>> My statement was in obvious response to your risible
>> pretense that you possessed some magical knowledge
>> or experience that I didn't in the subject at hand.
>
> if i can tell the difference between a quality oem rebuild and one made
> with inferior after-market components, then i apparently possess something
> you don't.

If only.

>>>> I'm
>>>> well aware that any vendor can, and in fact does (and some
>>>> more than others), periodically supply a faulty part and that
>>>> price alone is no guarantee of quality AND some of the same
>>>> vendors supply items bearing the exact same part numbers to
>>>> NAPA, mail order, "discount stores" and even dealers. I most
>>>> often locally purchase lifetime warrantied parts when that option
>>>> is available and usually refrain from buying either the cheapest
>>>> or the most expensive alternative when procuring via mail order.
>>>
>>> you're wriggling and squirming - there is NO reason to buy cheap
>>> inferior
>>> aftermarket crap,
>>
>> Nice strawman, no one has claimed that there is a
>> reason to buy "cheap inferior aftermarket crap".
>
> it's no strawman - you were trying to justify paying the same price for
> inferior aftermarket as oem.

Hardly, but it's demonstrably just too far over your head
for you to comprehend.

>>> which you would acknowledge if you'd ever bothered [in
>>> your "professional engineering" experience]
>>
>> The reference was clearly to my decades long professional
>> experience as an automotive mechanic.
>
> so what are you now -

Retired, as clearly stated and which you've already acknowledged.

> an auto mechanic, or an engineering grad?

Again, already recently and unmistakably stated. But given
that you still can't differentiate that which wouldn't even
begin to flummox a retarded ten year old in a hurry, what
could possibly be the point of continuing a dialog with you.

> you're not
> decades as a bachelors/masters graduate regressing to auto tech, thus
> you're clearly not one and probably not either.

Logic obviously isn't your long suit.

>>> to take that stuff apart and
>>> were honest enough to admit to doing, when you could buy genuine oem for
>>> the same price.
>>
>> Your implication that OEM is necessarily superior to
>> aftermarket is laughably naive to anyone competent.
>
> i'm confused -

In that case at least, you're a master of the obvious.

> when you said "I'd purchase (as I have, an untold number of
> times) a rebuilt, lifetime warrantied unit from one of the discount parts
> stores, Advance Auto Parts, Auto Zone, O'Reilly Auto Parts", i thought
> you'd actually shopped at one of those establishments and were advocating
> their product based on experience. clearly you haven't because if you had
> and you'd seen machine screws replaced with self-tapping, seen copper slip
> rings replaced with aluminum, seen rectifiers and/or controllers replaced
> with under-rated components, and seen chinese bearings, i'd have thought
> you, as an "engineer/vehicle tech" would know what you're looking at.

As impossibly unlikely as it would seem to be, you're
simply and incontestably becoming more and more
ridiculously incoherent and less and less entertaining.

[Brent]

On 2013-01-05, Gene <gene....@home.com> wrote:

> I FORMERLY did this work for a living in the 60's & 70's,
> possibly while you were still in a cradle, if that, before finishing
> my degree and taking a position as an engineer with CTC. I'm
> well aware that any vendor can, and in fact does (and some
> more than others), periodically supply a faulty part and that
> price alone is no guarantee of quality AND some of the same
> vendors supply items bearing the exact same part numbers to
> NAPA, mail order, "discount stores" and even dealers. I most
> often locally purchase lifetime warrantied parts when that option
> is available and usually refrain from buying either the cheapest
> or the most expensive alternative when procuring via mail order.

Yes, autoparts stores across the spectrum often carry the same rebuilds
from the same places. This doesn't mean they aren't crap across the
board. Today, not years ago before you got your degree, they are crap.
It's crap at NAPA and crap at Autozone. The difference is that NAPA
usually has teirs. Their more expensive stuff isn't the same stuff
that's at the others.

I prefer OEM, I prefer rebuilding my own (and I've done it). But
sometimes you're in a bind and just have to get the car back on the
road now so the top of the line NAPA/carquest/etc stuff fits the need.

As to starters, on one car with an odd starting issue, I removed the
starter, disassembled it, cleaned it up, found nothing wrong, put it
back together and the problem went away.

[Brent]

The OEMs often farm out their rebuilds to rebuilders that also serve
the aftermarket. Although the OEM rebuilds are IME much better done,
they are still rebuilds and often not exactly the same as the factory
orginals.

On another note Amazon.com does not deal with cores so it's a good place
to get OEM rebuilds without having to give up your original. That said
what they carry at any given time is a crap shoot.

[Vic Smith]

The "lifetime warranty" or 1-2 year warranties are the standard sales
pitch at places like OReilly's and Autozone.
I've only noticed lifetime for alternators, but don't pay much
attention. Bought such an alternator last year at OReillys.
Cost maybe 50 bucks more than the low end rebuilt, and I figured
putting a "lifetime replacement" on an alt means something in rebuild
quality.
GM alts aren't the best alts in the first place, and IME getting more
than about 5-7 years out of them is doing good.
We'll see if I use it. If it goes +5 years versus 3 years for the
cheapo, and I don't even use the warranty it was still worth the extra
50. But I'll never know, and it's a crap shoot. The store goes out
of business, and the warranty means squat anyway.
The car probably won't last 4 more years.
Otherwise, I just go for the top tier rebuilt they offer, and don't
pay any attention.
I can't remember the warranty on the last rebuilt starter I bought
about 5 years ago. When you get to stuff that normally lasts the life
of the car, warranties are basically worthless unless you believe they
indicate "extra" quality.
Water pumps I buy new, not worth the price difference to go rebuilt.
PS pumps are a crap shoot. My son went through 3 OReilly's rebuilts
before he got a keeper. I've done a few with no issues.
I went through 2 rebuilt A/C compressors from OReillys before I
squeezed them for a good price on a new OEM. Decided I'll never buy a
rebuilt A/C compressor again. Too much labor and lost R134 to make it
worth it.
It's always a crap shoot with rebuilts. There used to be a lot of
local rebuilders around here and the parts stores sourced from them.
Different world now.
I would never buy a rebuilt engine. I had a Beauville van I bought
used. 350. During normal crawling around maintenance I found a
"Rebuit By" sticker on the crankcase. Can't remember the name but
they were a major "respected"
rebuilder of that era, the 1970's. Think it was a Texas outfit.
Gave me a bad feeling.
At about 100k miles I had to pull the heads and do a partial top end
rebuild. Valve job and new lifters.
The head shop called me after I dropped them off and said I gave them
a 350 head and a 307 head. WTF?
They recommended they rework a boneyard 350 head to match them.
Cost me an extra 75 or so, but the bad part was knowing I had a shit
rebuild in my van. About 20k later a rod was knocking and that was
that.
It's all par for the long course.
Once you get your rules set, follow them and don't sweat the small
stuff. Works for me.

[Nate Nagel]

I actually had a counter guy at VatoZone recently steer my friend away
from the cheapest line of parts when his alternator died (Cavalier, 250K
miles, so obviously we were not shopping for quality or ultimate
durability) even he admitted that the cheap stuff was garbage. In
particular he mentioned that the 1-year warranty batteries seemed to
have an even chance of leaking and destroying stuff even before the
warranty was up. I appreciated his honesty, but really...

[Gene]

"Brent" <tetraethylle...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kca480$jic$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 2013-01-05, Gene <gene....@home.com> wrote:
>
>> I FORMERLY did this work for a living in the 60's & 70's,
>> possibly while you were still in a cradle, if that, before finishing
>> my degree and taking a position as an engineer with CTC. I'm
>> well aware that any vendor can, and in fact does (and some
>> more than others), periodically supply a faulty part and that
>> price alone is no guarantee of quality AND some of the same
>> vendors supply items bearing the exact same part numbers to
>> NAPA, mail order, "discount stores" and even dealers. I most
>> often locally purchase lifetime warrantied parts when that option
>> is available and usually refrain from buying either the cheapest
>> or the most expensive alternative when procuring via mail order.
>
> Yes, autoparts stores across the spectrum often carry the same rebuilds
> from the same places. This doesn't mean they aren't crap across the
> board. Today, not years ago before you got your degree, they are crap.
> It's crap at NAPA and crap at Autozone.

Even the most casual observer could readily verify that
NAPA, O'Reilly, Auto Zone ... explicitly list many of the
same vendors for replacement parts on their websites.

> The difference is that NAPA
> usually has teirs. Their more expensive stuff isn't the same stuff
> that's at the others.

Those I mentioned commonly have tiers today also. I've never
advocated the use of the least expensive replacement parts sold.

> I prefer OEM, I prefer rebuilding my own (and I've done it). But
> sometimes you're in a bind and just have to get the car back on the
> road now so the top of the line NAPA/carquest/etc stuff fits the need.

Yes, we used to replace diodes, brushes, starter drives,
solenoids, compressor clutches, master, slave and wheel
cylinder kits ... as needed. But as such individual parts
have become more difficult to easily come by, it's now
common to simply replace an entire unit with a reman.

[jim beam]

On 01/06/2013 07:01 AM, Gene wrote:
> "Brent"<tetraethylle...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:kca480$jic$1...@dont-email.me...
>> On 2013-01-05, Gene<gene....@home.com> wrote:
>>

>>> I FORMERLY did this work for a living in the 60's& 70's,

>>> possibly while you were still in a cradle, if that, before finishing
>>> my degree and taking a position as an engineer with CTC. I'm
>>> well aware that any vendor can, and in fact does (and some
>>> more than others), periodically supply a faulty part and that
>>> price alone is no guarantee of quality AND some of the same
>>> vendors supply items bearing the exact same part numbers to
>>> NAPA, mail order, "discount stores" and even dealers. I most
>>> often locally purchase lifetime warrantied parts when that option
>>> is available and usually refrain from buying either the cheapest
>>> or the most expensive alternative when procuring via mail order.
>>
>> Yes, autoparts stores across the spectrum often carry the same rebuilds
>> from the same places. This doesn't mean they aren't crap across the
>> board. Today, not years ago before you got your degree, they are crap.
>> It's crap at NAPA and crap at Autozone.
>
> Even the most casual observer could readily verify that
> NAPA, O'Reilly, Auto Zone ... explicitly list many of the
> same vendors for replacement parts on their websites.

he said, from the safety of his sofa not workshop.

>
>> The difference is that NAPA
>> usually has teirs. Their more expensive stuff isn't the same stuff
>> that's at the others.
>
> Those I mentioned commonly have tiers today also. I've never
> advocated the use of the least expensive replacement parts sold.

but you advocated "Advance Auto Parts, Auto Zone, O'Reilly Auto Parts",
none of whom offer oem quality rebuilds. your recommendation was on the
basis of their "lifetime warranty", which may sound good when you're
paying $130 for an alternator, but in reality, you're getting $50 of
crap and an $80 warranty which they're hoping you'll never use. any
experienced professional knows it's better to pay $130 for an oem
rebuild with a 12 month warranty that will never be needed.

>
>> I prefer OEM, I prefer rebuilding my own (and I've done it). But
>> sometimes you're in a bind and just have to get the car back on the
>> road now so the top of the line NAPA/carquest/etc stuff fits the need.
>
> Yes, we

"we"???

> used to replace diodes, brushes, starter drives,
> solenoids, compressor clutches, master, slave and wheel
> cylinder kits ... as needed. But as such individual parts
> have become more difficult to easily come by, it's now
> common to simply replace an entire unit with a reman.

individual parts are very easy to come by. there's this thing called
"the internet". it'll put you in touch with virtually any part you want
- if you actually know what you're doing.

but that's not what you meant to say - that it's EASIER to replace
remanufactured units.

>
>> As to starters, on one car with an odd starting issue, I removed the
>> starter, disassembled it, cleaned it up, found nothing wrong, put it
>> back together and the problem went away.
>
>

--
fact check required

[Gene]

"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message

news:kccd4s$o4p$2...@dont-email.me...

That phrase alone conspicuously excludes his ilk.

> knows it's better to pay $130 for an oem rebuild with a 12 month warranty
> that will never be needed.
>
>>> I prefer OEM, I prefer rebuilding my own (and I've done it). But
>>> sometimes you're in a bind and just have to get the car back on the
>>> road now so the top of the line NAPA/carquest/etc stuff fits the need.
>>
>> Yes, we
>
> "we"???
>
>> used to replace diodes, brushes, starter drives,
>> solenoids, compressor clutches, master, slave and wheel
>> cylinder kits ... as needed. But as such individual parts
>> have become more difficult to easily come by, it's now
>> common to simply replace an entire unit with a reman.
>
> individual parts are very easy to come by. there's this thing called "the
> internet". it'll put you in touch with virtually any part you want - if
> you actually know what you're doing.
>
> but that's not what you meant to say - that it's EASIER to replace
> remanufactured units.
>
>>> As to starters, on one car with an odd starting issue, I removed the
>>> starter, disassembled it, cleaned it up, found nothing wrong, put it
>>> back together and the problem went away.

He should just admit the glaringly obvious, concrete fact that
everyone else is already well aware, he doesn't now nor has
he ever had anything of any value whatsoever to contribute.

[jim beam]

he? or your royal "we"?


--
fact check required

[Gene]

"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message

news:kccs6v$qm1$2...@dont-email.me...

>> He should just admit the glaringly obvious, concrete fact that
>> everyone else is already well aware, he doesn't now nor has
>> he ever had anything of any value whatsoever to contribute.
>
> he? or your royal "we"?

Yet another indecipherable, meaningless non sequitur. The
deluded poseur isn't exactly what one would classify as a
formidable, or hardly so much as even a worthy, adversary.

[jim beam]

if you think you're addressing someone, like me, then address that
person directly. otherwise all the above indirect nonsense means
nothing. apart from showing the yellow streak down your back.


--
fact check required

[Gene]

"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message

news:kcg1qr$b6m$1...@dont-email.me...

Well aware that he can no longer either garner nor be deserving
of a personal response, he's developed stark "emotional problems"
due to the fly speck's continually failing attempts to attract the child
like attention that he has proven to so desperately desire.

[jim beam]

don't be a coward. [and a hypocrite.] if you mean me, address your
comments to me directly, not some ethereal "he" that is contextually
incorrect.


--
fact check required

[Ashton Crusher]

On Sat, 5 Jan 2013 10:23:29 -0600, "Gene" <gene....@home.com>

wrote:

>"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message

>>>> nate
>>>>
>>>> --

>>>> replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel
>>>
>>> Get a new starter or a rebuilt one. Getting yours rebuilt is expensive
>>> and the parts they use aren't any better than buying one from a parts
>>> store. Plus you don't know if they completely rebuilding the starter,
>>> or just fixing what is wrong with it. We've deal with a local rebuild
>>> shop and we've had starters go bad after 6 months from them. Plus the
>>> warranty from a parts store will be better as well.
>>> ****************************
>>>

>>> Were it a vehicle I intended to use and retain for years, I'd

>>> purchase (as I have, an untold number of times) a rebuilt,
>>> lifetime warrantied unit from one of the discount parts stores,

>>> e.g., Advance Auto Parts, Auto Zone, O'Reilly Auto Parts ...
>>> and most definitely would NOT pay ANY premium by
>>> purchasing from NAPA, a dealer, an independent rebuilder ...
>>
>> you must like working on your car a lot. the component quality used in
>> rebuilds from the discount parts stores is absolutely abysmal. they don't
>> last. the only reason they offer "lifetime warranty" is that
>> statistically, most people don't go back, and those that do get sick of
>> repeated failures so they buy again somewhere else.
>
>That's the hype alright, and my decades of personal experience
>in employing their replacement parts proves it to be nothing less
>than absolute, unmitigated bullshit.
>
>> most starter/alternator manufacturers do full factory rebuilds that are as
>> good as new. if you buy those rebuilds at the dealer you'll be charged
>> through the nose, but if you find the right outlet, you can often get them
>> at the same kind of price as a cheapo rebuild. i got a genuine denso
>> rebuild for my civic, with full denso warranty, from amazon for the same
>> price as the cheapo 5-minute crap you'll find at the parts stores.
>> there's no reason it shouldn't last the 20 years that the original did.
>
>When time is not a factor, in my retirement these days I
>purchase from the least expensive supplier I've found,
>http://RockAuto.com and have yet to experience an issue.
>

A lot of times you can compare part numbers and you'll find that they
are ALL using the same parts supplier but not necessarily all charging
the same price.

[DFBo...@hotmail.com]

On Fri, 04 Jan 2013 16:52:41 -0800, Jack <@noway.com> wrote:

>My 87 Dak is acting like the battery is weak, but it has a Sears
>Diehard, less than a year old, and all the cells are full and check out
>good with a specific gravity tester. The voltage at the battery is 14.5
>volts when idling and 13.25 volts after charging on a 10 amp charger. I
>cleaned both ends of the battery cable, at the starter, solenoid, engine
>ground and, of course, the battery. Now, after charging, the battery is
>good for maybe 4 or 5 starts! The only thing I can think of that might
>be at fault is the starter motor, but I never experienced a starter
>getting weak. They have always just burned out like a light bulb.
>
>Any thoughts?
>
>Thanks
>Jack

Get a starter draw test done and find out how many amps it is
drawing. It may well be out of spec now and will require replacement.

[Jack]

Jack wrote:
> My 87 Dak is acting like the battery is weak, but it has a Sears
> Diehard, less than a year old, and all the cells are full and check out
> good with a specific gravity tester. The voltage at the battery is 14.5
> volts when idling and 13.25 volts after charging on a 10 amp charger. I
> cleaned both ends of the battery cable, at the starter, solenoid, engine
> ground and, of course, the battery. Now, after charging, the battery is
> good for maybe 4 or 5 starts! The only thing I can think of that might
> be at fault is the starter motor, but I never experienced a starter
> getting weak. They have always just burned out like a light bulb.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks
> Jack

Well because of work and other pressing obligations I put off changing
the starter, but when I got stranded at Home Depot today I wasted no
time after getting a jump to pass by O'Reilly's on the way home and pick
up a rebuilt, while I left the engine running and sure enough, the
starter was the problem. The guy from AAA told me the battery was fully
charged and it barely cranked enough to start with his battery pack
hooked up. I knew all the connections were clean, so by this time there
was little doubt, actually, none.

Well, anyway after wrestling the old one out and installing the rebuilt
I put all the tools away, cleaned the grime off my hands and went out to
savor the joy of a fast cranking, quick starting engine. Bingo! it
started right up! Only problem was the starter kept cranking. I turned
the engine off but the starter kept cranking! SH#T!!! I popped the hood
and tried to yank off a battery cable, but I had cinched them both down
tight. I ran inside to get the 1/2 inch wrench to loose the bolt on the
cable. By this time it's dark and I didn't bring out the flashlight, so
I'm fumbling around doing this by feel. Finally got it loose and pulled
the cable off the post and the starter stopped spinning. whew!

So I put the cable back on the post, not knowing what to expect, but
nothing happened. I leave the hood up and the cable loose on the post
and go to try again, being ready to sprint back to the battery to pull
the cable if necessary, but this time the starter motor disengaged. I
tried it several more times with no drama. The engine started and the
starter disengaged every time. Cool, but not cool. I disconnect the
battery cable so as not to have to worry about the starter spontaneously
starting.

I go to Google and look up 'starter motor keeps cranking' and found this
not to be an entirely uncommon problem. The possible cause that appealed
to me the most was that a new or rebuilt starter has tolerances that are
tight, causing the solenoid not to disengage. This problem, I was lead
to believe, can work itself out as the starter does its work . I thought
maybe the minute and half that this one was cranking while I fumbled to
pull the battery cable might have done just that. I'm hoping that's the
case because that would mean no more work. But it seems just as likely
from the symptoms that the starter relay was stuck. But this has never
happened before, so I'm leaning toward the rebuilt starter as the source
of the problem. But tomorrow I will pull the relay and pop it open to
inspect the contacts for any sign of weld spots.

I'm assuming that the starter was cranking the engine after I turned the
key off and not just spinning. The fact that it continued for so long
cranking at a good solid rpm tells me I should have no starting problems
for quite a while. But I am going to disconnect the battery at night
until I feel comfortable that it won't spontaneously start :-)

I also see that this thread seemed to take on a life of its own after my
last post. I have some catch-up reading to do!

Jack

[Scott Dorsey]

In article <kdfo30$rel$1...@dont-email.me>, Jack <@noway.com> wrote:
>
>I go to Google and look up 'starter motor keeps cranking' and found this
>not to be an entirely uncommon problem. The possible cause that appealed
>to me the most was that a new or rebuilt starter has tolerances that are
>tight, causing the solenoid not to disengage. This problem, I was lead
>to believe, can work itself out as the starter does its work . I thought
>maybe the minute and half that this one was cranking while I fumbled to
>pull the battery cable might have done just that. I'm hoping that's the
>case because that would mean no more work. But it seems just as likely
>from the symptoms that the starter relay was stuck. But this has never
>happened before, so I'm leaning toward the rebuilt starter as the source
>of the problem. But tomorrow I will pull the relay and pop it open to
>inspect the contacts for any sign of weld spots.

You remember earlier when people were warning you about crappy chain store
rebuilds? This is why.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Nate Nagel]

I'm not familiar with an '87 Dakota in particular, does it have a
solenoid mounted on the starter, or is the solenoid remote and the
pinion engagement governed by a centrifugal style "Bendix" mechanism?

[Gene]

"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:kdh2a7$9ed$1...@panix2.panix.com...

I knew that at least one incompetent clown would make that
spurious claim wholly irrespective of ANY issue whatsoever
that you might experience in the lifetime of the vehicle.

But had he a clue, he would have first informed you to check
a couple of items first before indicting the starter as the issue,
not that there is any better a guarantee that a more expensive
unit (be it new or rebuilt) would undoubtedly be free of any
problem.

Verify that there isn't an issue with either the start circuit
being continuously energized, and also that the starter
drive isn't binding and unable to disengage with the ring
gear indicating that shims may be required. In any case,
if the motor achieved speeds above idle (for whatever
reason), I'd seriously consider returning the starter for
warranty replacement as armature winding can begin
to bloom (expand) when driven at too high an rpm.

[Gene]

"Gene" <gene....@home.com> wrote in message
news:kdh9p2$vu$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

One other thing, when possible (and feasible), so as to save
myself some unnecessary labor, I always bench test (and of
course verify exact replacement of) an item before installing.

[Jack]

Solenoid is integral and directly engages the pinion gear. I just
finished removing the starter relay for inspection. It looked as if it
might have experience a spot welding episode, although what I saw may
have just been the result of normal operation. In any case I buffed the
contacts with wet/dry sandpaper, reinstalled it and gave the engine a
couple of starts with no problem. I will assume that this was a one time
event unless and until it happens again. In the meantime I am leaving
one battery cable loose.

[Jack]

The fact that this has never happened before in the 26 years I have
owned this truck, and that it happened on the first start with a new
rebuilt starter points strongly to either the starter or the
installation. This is the 3th or 4th starter I have installed since this
truck was new in about 130,000 miles. I don't know what the average
lifespan of a starter is on this truck, whether this is par or not, but
I have always just swapped out the old for the new with no problem until
now.

I don't know if this new rebuilt starter is turning the engine faster
than idle, but it sure as heck is turning it faster than than the old
one, and that is what I was looking for. So far it seems to be a one
time problem, as the engine has started up normally several times after
this episode, but I'm leaving the battery cable loose just in case.

Jack

[Jack]

You can be sure I will keep that in mind if the need to change the
starter ever comes up again :-)

[Gene]

"Jack" <@noway.com> wrote in message news:kdhdgv$fuo$1...@dont-email.me...

I must not have been clear. What I meant was that after the engine,
started, if the engine was reved much above idle, starters don't like
that and the armature windings can, given a high enough speed
and long enough period of time, expand radially and then bind with
internals such as the field coils.

[Jack]

Ah... I see. Well, only time will tell, but so far so good. The engine
is starting up fine at present. I didn't rev the engine when this event
happened, but the carb was on fast idle. The starter seems to have
survived. It's the lifetime warranty Ultima starter from O'Reilly's, so
if it goes south I'll just get another.

Jack

[Nate Nagel]

Hard to say whether it's an electrical or mechanical issue... just keep
an eye on it.

Had the same thing happen on a starter on my '55 Stude (don't remember
what starter though, it was a 12V starter I know that because I'd
converted it, forget if Delco or Prestolite) problem ended up being a
bad ignition switch! sounded like a turbo screaming but it was the
starter staying engaged...

Not applicable to your situation but when bench testing starters with a
"Bendix" drive (actually a misnomer - I'm referring to the later
"Folo-Thru" design but still commonly called a Bendix by mechanics
because it looks identical) the gear will not retract after it kicks out
- it needs the overrun of being driven by an engine that's started to
kick it back in. So there really is no good way to test one of those
100% without a running engine...

[Jack]

After reading up on this starter in the shop manual for the truck, I
find it is a "reduction gear overrunning clutch type with a solenoid
mounted on starter motor". The overrunning clutch would prevent the
flywheel of a running engine from turning the armature windings at a
higher speed than than they turn under normal starting operation if the
pinion gear fails to disengage, so there should be no danger of the
armature windings expanding radially and then binding with internals.

Jack

[Jack]

For what it's worth, the shop manual describes the starter thusly,
"Starter motor drive is a reduction gear overrunning clutch type with a
solenoid mounted on starter motor." Isn't this a different design than a
Folo-Thru drive and therefore could be successfully bench tested for the
failure to disengage condition?

Jack

[Nate Nagel]

Absolutely. The type you have should retract as soon as the "control"
voltage is removed from the solenoid.

[Jack]

Ah, right... you DID post that the info on the Folo-Thru was not
applicable to my situation. That didn't register the first time I read it.

[Gene]

"Jack" <@noway.com> wrote in message news:kdhikr$jhm$1...@dont-email.me...

Yes, that will not occur in a normally functioning starter,
but it can and does happen. If you don't believe me, ask
any experienced mechanic whether they've ever seen a
"blossomed" armature. If they respond that they haven't,
they're either insufficiently experienced, or a prevaricator.

[Gene]

"Nate Nagel" <njn...@roosters.net> wrote in message
news:kdhjs...@news3.newsguy.com...

I don't think that's what was meant, he's referring to the
nature of the one way, sprag clutch, not the spring which,
via linkage, pulls the starter out of mesh when the solenoid
is de-energized in that specific application.

[Jack]

But I am not dealing with a "normally functioning starter". I am dealing
with one that failed to disengage the first time was used. The point I
am trying to nail down is that this "blossomed armature" problem should
not occur in an overrunning clutch type starter, which is what I have,
if it fails to disengage, for whatever reason, and the overrunning
clutch functions as it should. Am I right or wrong on this, in your
opinion? Since you warned me that "if the motor achieved speeds above

idle (for whatever reason), I'd seriously consider returning the starter
for warranty replacement as armature winding can begin to bloom (expand)

when driven at too high an rpm," I need to know this so I can calibrate
the amount of time I spend worrying about it.

Jack

[Gene]

"Jack" <@noway.com> wrote in message news:kdhlrj$85l$1...@dont-email.me...

I wouldn't worry about it if you don't notice a slowly running, or
any noise from a, dragging starter A fast idle alone, particularly
for a non-extended period of time, is very unlikely to precipitate
this issue.

[Nate Nagel]

It sounds like, from reading the thread, you already purchased a
"lifetime warranty" starter, and that changing the starter on this
particular vehicle is not that terribly onerous a task. If both of
those are the case I probably would just ensure that I kept the receipt
for your current starter and stop worrying about it unless you continue
to have issues with it. Personally I prefer to know that everything is
perfect, but at some point you just have to accept that it's working and
move on.

[Jack]

That is pretty much where I am at this point, nate :-)

[jim beam]

wow, you're really not from this planet! and most certainly not
anywhere near the solar system "engineer" or even the "curiosity" galaxy.

>
> Had the same thing happen on a starter on my '55 Stude (don't remember
> what starter though, it was a 12V starter I know that because I'd
> converted it, forget if Delco or Prestolite) problem ended up being a
> bad ignition switch! sounded like a turbo screaming but it was the
> starter staying engaged...
>
> Not applicable to your situation but when bench testing starters with a
> "Bendix" drive (actually a misnomer - I'm referring to the later
> "Folo-Thru" design but still commonly called a Bendix by mechanics
> because it looks identical) the gear will not retract after it kicks out
> - it needs the overrun of being driven by an engine that's started to
> kick it back in. So there really is no good way to test one of those
> 100% without a running engine...

100% irrelevant drivel.


--
fact check required

[jim beam]

no, it's poor re-build. there shouldn't be any high spots on the
contacts. if there are, because they're cheap, all the contact heat
gets localized at the high spot [because it's the only point touching!]
and as you have observed, local welding can occur. it's much more
common than you'd think on high current poor quality rebuilds.

> In any case I buffed the
> contacts with wet/dry sandpaper, reinstalled it and gave the engine a
> couple of starts with no problem. I will assume that this was a one time
> event unless and until it happens again.

the return spring should be in good condition, and its slider free to
move. sometimes a little lube on that can help significantly. don't
over-do it though. copper powder from the contact break arcing that
happens can accumulate and in worst case, create a conduction path.

> In the meantime I am leaving
> one battery cable loose.

get a boat battery isolator switch and wire that in instead. loose
connections can land you in a whole different world of hurt involving
batteries and alternators.


--
fact check required

[jim beam]

On 01/20/2013 09:33 AM, Gene wrote:
> "Scott Dorsey"<klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:kdh2a7$9ed$1...@panix2.panix.com...
>> In article<kdfo30$rel$1...@dont-email.me>, Jack<@noway.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I go to Google and look up 'starter motor keeps cranking' and found this
>>> not to be an entirely uncommon problem. The possible cause that appealed
>>> to me the most was that a new or rebuilt starter has tolerances that are
>>> tight, causing the solenoid not to disengage. This problem, I was lead
>>> to believe, can work itself out as the starter does its work . I thought
>>> maybe the minute and half that this one was cranking while I fumbled to
>>> pull the battery cable might have done just that. I'm hoping that's the
>>> case because that would mean no more work. But it seems just as likely
>> >from the symptoms that the starter relay was stuck. But this has never
>>> happened before, so I'm leaning toward the rebuilt starter as the source
>>> of the problem. But tomorrow I will pull the relay and pop it open to
>>> inspect the contacts for any sign of weld spots.
>>
>> You remember earlier when people were warning you about crappy chain store
>> rebuilds? This is why.
>> --scott
>>
>> --
>> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
>
> I knew that at least one incompetent clown would make that
> spurious claim wholly irrespective of ANY issue whatsoever
> that you might experience in the lifetime of the vehicle.

the very significant majority of problems with aftermarket rebuilds is
poor quality resulting from cost cutting. a "chain store rebuild" for
$150 with "lifetime warranty" is in fact a $50 rebuild with an
appropriately expensive insurance policy attached. if someone wants to
keep the vehicle on the road without the above kind of issue and the
labor of regular replacements or other collateral damage, they're better
advised to get a quality rebuild without the bullshit policy so that the
money's actually going into the more expensive and thus durable/reliable
componentry. s.d.'s admonition is 100 on target.

>
> But had he a clue, he would have first informed you to check
> a couple of items first before indicting the starter as the issue,
> not that there is any better a guarantee that a more expensive
> unit (be it new or rebuilt) would undoubtedly be free of any
> problem.
>
> Verify that there isn't an issue with either the start circuit
> being continuously energized, and also that the starter
> drive isn't binding and unable to disengage with the ring
> gear indicating that shims may be required. In any case,
> if the motor achieved speeds above idle (for whatever
> reason), I'd seriously consider returning the starter for
> warranty replacement as armature winding can begin
> to bloom (expand) when driven at too high an rpm.
>
>

--
fact check required

[Gene]

"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:kdnfca$fp4$1...@dont-email.me...

Not only is the brain dead respondent unable to accurately and
consistently determine so much as the time of day (for just one
of many, see his most recent example in his reply regarding the
"PCV valve location" sent "before" the original post), he's also
completely at a loss as to the cost of the starter (which wouldn't
begin to flummox even a retarded 10 year old in a hurry), for
which the OP paid ~ $50 (not $150) and yet he possesses the
laugh inducing temerity and arrogance to actually offer advice.

[jim beam]

apparently you can't read what i actually said.

> and yet he possesses the
> laugh inducing temerity and arrogance to actually offer advice.

is the fact that you have no technical contribution to offer related to
the big yellow streak running down your back that apparently prevents
you responding to people directly?

>
>>> But had he a clue, he would have first informed you to check
>>> a couple of items first before indicting the starter as the issue,
>>> not that there is any better a guarantee that a more expensive
>>> unit (be it new or rebuilt) would undoubtedly be free of any
>>> problem.
>>>
>>> Verify that there isn't an issue with either the start circuit
>>> being continuously energized, and also that the starter
>>> drive isn't binding and unable to disengage with the ring
>>> gear indicating that shims may be required. In any case,
>>> if the motor achieved speeds above idle (for whatever
>>> reason), I'd seriously consider returning the starter for
>>> warranty replacement as armature winding can begin
>>> to bloom (expand) when driven at too high an rpm.
>
>

--
fact check required

[Vic Smith]

You can't simplify this without at least minimal facts.

Here's O'Reillys selections for the '87 Dakota
V8
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search.oap?year=1997&make=Dodge&model=Dakota&vi=1087714&keyword=starter
V6
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search.oap?year=1987&make=Dodge&model=Dakota&vi=1087343&keyword=starter
L4
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search.oap?year=1987&make=Dodge&model=Dakota&vi=1087332&keyword=starter

The difference between 1 year and lifetime warranty is 5 bucks.
No brainer. For the V8 you can get "new" for +$37. For me that's a
no brainer too. You can get rebuilts for the Dakota for about 40
bucks at Advance. You can get raped at a car dealership.
Unless you're getting a rebuilt from a local rebuild shop - which I
haven't seen in a long time - or rebuild it yourself, you're always
rolling the dice. And you don't know where the work is done, or the
real "quality."
So what's the "quality" rebuilds you're talking about?
Where would you get a rebuilt starter for the Dakota?
Except for A/C compressors and water pumps, where I want new OEM
replacement, I go for rebuilt accessories with lifetime warranties if
offered. Nowhere near the price difference you're saying. IME they
all give warning before failure so I 've never been stranded by an
accessory, new or rebuilt, and they're easy to swap out.
This seems like a tempest in a teapot to me.
Nobody even knows why the OP's starter kept running.
Maybe cleaning the relay fixed it.

[Gene]

"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message

news:kdnpg4$t96$1...@dont-email.me...

>>>>
>>>> I knew that at least one incompetent clown would make that
>>>> spurious claim wholly irrespective of ANY issue whatsoever
>>>> that you might experience in the lifetime of the vehicle.
>>>
>>> the very significant majority of problems with aftermarket rebuilds is
>>> poor quality resulting from cost cutting. a "chain store rebuild" for
>>> $150 with "lifetime warranty" is in fact a $50 rebuild with an
>>> appropriately expensive insurance policy attached. if someone wants to
>>> keep the vehicle on the road without the above kind of issue and the
>>> labor
>>> of regular replacements or other collateral damage, they're better
>>> advised
>>> to get a quality rebuild without the bullshit policy so that the money's
>>> actually going into the more expensive and thus durable/reliable
>>> componentry. s.d.'s admonition is 100 on target.
>>
>> Not only is the brain dead respondent unable to accurately and
>> consistently determine so much as the time of day (for just one
>> of many, see his most recent example in his reply regarding the
>> "PCV valve location" sent "before" the original post), he's also
>> completely at a loss as to the cost of the starter (which wouldn't
>> begin to flummox even a retarded 10 year old in a hurry), for
>> which the OP paid ~ $50 (not $150)
>
> apparently you can't read what i actually said.

For those of us who can read, res ipsa loquitur; the OP clearly
stated that he purchased a lifetime warranty unit. But pathetically
feeble, failed attempts at deception and empty, self-aggrandizing
claims, yet never anything of actual value, are all the inebriant's
namesake has truly ever had to "contribute".

[Gene]

"Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:l2nvf8toal6t73mo7...@4ax.com...

Your above link is for a '97 (not '87) V-8, it appears
that a V-8 was not an option in the OP's '87 model.

[Scott Dorsey]

Vic Smith <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>The difference between 1 year and lifetime warranty is 5 bucks.
>No brainer. For the V8 you can get "new" for +$37. For me that's a
>no brainer too. You can get rebuilts for the Dakota for about 40
>bucks at Advance. You can get raped at a car dealership.
>Unless you're getting a rebuilt from a local rebuild shop - which I
>haven't seen in a long time - or rebuild it yourself, you're always
>rolling the dice. And you don't know where the work is done, or the
>real "quality."

For electrical stuff, I _always_ go to the local rebuild shop. First of
all, I can see the work they're doing and I can see what they're putting in
before they do it. Secondly, as you note, the local shops are going away
and it's important to support them and keep them in business.

>So what's the "quality" rebuilds you're talking about?

Go to NAPA. Ask about rebuilds. They will have a couple of grades available.
Look at them and feel them and see if you can tell the difference.

>Where would you get a rebuilt starter for the Dakota?

I would get it from Dixie Electric on Mercury Blvd, Hampton VA. They have
always done great work for me at a good price even on weird British stuff.

[Gene]

"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message

news:kdouhg$gan$1...@panix2.panix.com...

> Vic Smith <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>The difference between 1 year and lifetime warranty is 5 bucks.
>>No brainer. For the V8 you can get "new" for +$37. For me that's a
>>no brainer too. You can get rebuilts for the Dakota for about 40
>>bucks at Advance. You can get raped at a car dealership.
>>Unless you're getting a rebuilt from a local rebuild shop - which I
>>haven't seen in a long time - or rebuild it yourself, you're always
>>rolling the dice. And you don't know where the work is done, or the
>>real "quality."
>
> For electrical stuff, I _always_ go to the local rebuild shop. First of
> all, I can see the work they're doing and I can see what they're putting
> in
> before they do it.

Sure he does. With all the valueless time he no doubt has
on his otherwise idle hands, were he actually competent,
he could simply acquire the required replacement parts
(by whatever means necessary) and repair it himself, but
instead chooses to stand there and witness each and every
step that a true professional takes while rebuilding his item.

> Secondly, as you note, the local shops are going away
> and it's important to support them and keep them in business.

Competent tradesmen acting with integrity and not seeking
to just "get rich quick" have always had all the work that
they could handle.

>>So what's the "quality" rebuilds you're talking about?
>
> Go to NAPA. Ask about rebuilds. They will have a couple of grades
> available.

As will AutoZone, O'Reilly, Carquest, Advance ... both
seperately and collectively.

> Look at them and feel them and see if you can tell the difference.

Nothing less than totally absurd to suggest that one can
determine quality of a starter with any degree of certainty
by an external inspection alone.

>>Where would you get a rebuilt starter for the Dakota?
>
> I would get it from Dixie Electric on Mercury Blvd, Hampton VA. They have
> always done great work for me at a good price even on weird British stuff.
> --scott

He spouts nothing any more substantial than obvious
nonsense and transparent pretense.

[jim beam]

item 1...

>
>>> So what's the "quality" rebuilds you're talking about?
>>
>> Go to NAPA. Ask about rebuilds. They will have a couple of grades
>> available.
>
> As will AutoZone, O'Reilly, Carquest, Advance ... both
> seperately and collectively.

item 2.

here you are, again, espousing #2 as a solution, completely contrary to
what you say about #1.

>
>> Look at them and feel them and see if you can tell the difference.
>
> Nothing less than totally absurd to suggest that one can
> determine quality of a starter with any degree of certainty
> by an external inspection alone.

ok, now we go from mere "surprise" at some of your blatherings not
adding up compared to your claimed expertise, to stone cold certainty
about the truth - you're no engineer or even vehicle tech. anyone with
the slightest modicum of experience or who has studied machine function
knows damned well what they're looking at and can easily tell quality
differences from simple visual inspection. not only are you a coward,
you're a fraud.

>
>>> Where would you get a rebuilt starter for the Dakota?
>>
>> I would get it from Dixie Electric on Mercury Blvd, Hampton VA. They have
>> always done great work for me at a good price even on weird British stuff.
>> --scott
>
> He spouts nothing any more substantial than obvious
> nonsense and transparent pretense.

thus speaks the fraud seeking to bluster past his deceit.


--
fact check required

[jim beam]

wtf is an "decades experienced engineer" and "decades experienced
vehicle tech" doing [mis]quoting latin? and wtf is language like
"self-aggrandizing" doing coming from a fucking hypocrite seeking to use it?

purely rhetorical questions of course because we've just learned what
you really are.


--
fact check required

[Winston]

"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message

news:kdq3a3$4ue$1...@dont-email.me...

>> Competent tradesmen acting with integrity and not seeking
>> to just "get rich quick" have always had all the work that
>> they could handle.
>
> item 1...
>>
>>>> So what's the "quality" rebuilds you're talking about?
>>>
>>> Go to NAPA. Ask about rebuilds. They will have a couple of grades
>>> available.
>>
>> As will AutoZone, O'Reilly, Carquest, Advance ... both
>> seperately and collectively.
>
> item 2.
>
> here you are, again, espousing #2 as a solution, completely contrary to
> what you say about #1.

But only in his deluded reality.

>>> Look at them and feel them and see if you can tell the difference.
>>
>> Nothing less than totally absurd to suggest that one can
>> determine quality of a starter with any degree of certainty
>> by an external inspection alone.
>
> ok, now we go from mere "surprise" at some of your blatherings not adding
> up compared to your claimed expertise, to stone cold certainty about the
> truth - you're no engineer or even vehicle tech. anyone with the
> slightest modicum of experience or who has studied machine function knows
> damned well what they're looking at and can easily tell quality
> differences from simple visual inspection.

No one could possibly make a competent, conclusive
determination as to the quality of the internals of a rebuilt
starter solely on a visual inspection of its externals while
residing on a parts counter.

> not only are you a coward,
> you're a fraud.

So decrees the circus clown.

>>>> Where would you get a rebuilt starter for the Dakota?
>>>
>>> I would get it from Dixie Electric on Mercury Blvd, Hampton VA. They
>>> have
>>> always done great work for me at a good price even on weird British
>>> stuff.
>>> --scott
>>
>> He spouts nothing any more substantial than obvious
>> nonsense and transparent pretense.
>
> thus speaks the fraud seeking to bluster past his deceit.

One need do no more than to evaluate the credibility of a
ranting and raving lunatic and consider the risible source.

[Scott Dorsey]

>> Nothing less than totally absurd to suggest that one can
>> determine quality of a starter with any degree of certainty
>> by an external inspection alone.

True enough, but you can certainly rule out the total garbage.

I think the problem here is that you are a decade or so out of date and
you have not seen the absolute trash that has been foisted on the public
in the last five to ten years.

A decade ago your statements were pretty much correct, that you could wander
in and order a generic rebuild and expect it to be decent. But those days
are gone. They are gone like the passenger pigeon and the slide rule.

We now have rebuilds where metal pieces are replaced with plastic equivalents,
copper alloys with as little copper as possible, diecast work where the
original was machined. These things did not exist in the market a decade
ago but they have now become very common.

It's not TOO hard to tell that the original had phosphor bronze bearings
and the new ones are made of cartridge brass...

[jim beam]

On 01/24/2013 07:18 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> Nothing less than totally absurd to suggest that one can
>>> determine quality of a starter with any degree of certainty
>>> by an external inspection alone.
>
> True enough,

i respectfully disagree. there are many subtle differences that are
telltales if you know what you're looking for.

> but you can certainly rule out the total garbage.

easily.

>
> I think the problem here is that you are a decade or so out of date and
> you have not seen the absolute trash that has been foisted on the public
> in the last five to ten years.
>
> A decade ago your statements were pretty much correct, that you could wander
> in and order a generic rebuild and expect it to be decent. But those days
> are gone. They are gone like the passenger pigeon and the slide rule.

you're confusing the parties here - i've been saying all along that
modern high street rebuilds are crap.

>
> We now have rebuilds where metal pieces are replaced with plastic equivalents,

yup

> copper alloys with as little copper as possible,

yup

> diecast work where the
> original was machined.

that's not necessarily the end of the world. some of the taiwanese
[thixoformed] "castings" give many formerly machines parts a serious run
for their money. especially if the old part was made from a "free
machining" alloy.

> These things did not exist in the market a decade
> ago but they have now become very common.
>
> It's not TOO hard to tell that the original had phosphor bronze bearings
> and the new ones are made of cartridge brass...

believe it or not, the alloy isn't as important as its forming method -
what matters for bushings is that they're porous [sintered] and oil
impregnated. or better yet, made of steel and called "ball bearings".

my biggest compliant is where they don't even attempt to rebuild to oem
spec. i've seen alternators with aluminum slip rings for instance. i
mean, that's just insulting.


--
fact check required

[jim beam]

On 01/24/2013 05:42 AM, "Winston", the idiot who can't remember which

um, you're posting from the wrong account "winston" - too busy showing
your yellow streak again.


--
fact check required

[Jack]

Jack wrote:
> My 87 Dak is acting like the battery is weak, but it has a Sears
> Diehard, less than a year old, and all the cells are full and check out
> good with a specific gravity tester. The voltage at the battery is 14.5
> volts when idling and 13.25 volts after charging on a 10 amp charger. I
> cleaned both ends of the battery cable, at the starter, solenoid, engine
> ground and, of course, the battery. Now, after charging, the battery is
> good for maybe 4 or 5 starts! The only thing I can think of that might
> be at fault is the starter motor, but I never experienced a starter
> getting weak. They have always just burned out like a light bulb.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks
> Jack

First off, after that initial glitch, the rebuilt starter is working
great! The engine cranks like new. But another problem has cropped up.
When driving in 25mph traffic lately, the engine has died several times.
There is no coughing or sputtering, just a clean, sudden death. On this
87 Dak, could this be coil related? I suspect the coil because I had
this same problem a couple or three years back. I have four coils, an
MSD coil, an Accel coil and two coils from Kragen's/O'Reilly's. I gave
up on the MSD and Accel coils because the Accel coil burned out and the
MSD coil ran super hot, even with a ballast resistor. I could have had
any of these coils installed when the engine was stalling 2 or 3 years
ago, I wasn't keeping track. It could have been the one I have installed
now. The engine starts up with no problem, plugs are good, wires are
good, cap and rotor are good, vacuum at idle is 20 psi, carb is a Holley
2280, new old stock less than three years old, engine passed California
smog less than a year ago. The original Hall effect module failed and
the engine stalled in the same way then that it is stalling now, but
back then, the engine would not restart immediately. After 5 to 20
minutes the engine would restart. But now the engine restarts
immediately after stalling.

A new coil is about $18, a new Hall effect pickup about $25. It seems to
me that it could be either of these components. I will probably try a
new coil first.

Jack

[Jack]

Just want to add that engine runs like a top other than the stalling issue.

[Gene]

"Jack" <@noway.com> wrote in message news:ke2bqj$ak9$1...@dont-email.me...

That it quickly restarts can make trouble shooting fun. Could
be the ignition switch, neutral safety switch, other bad electrical
contact, sediment in the tank or float bowl ... On the positive
side, with a vehicle of that vintage, I'd think that a salvage yard,
particularly one of the pull-it-yourself variety, would likely have
easily removed and quite inexpensive replacement parts to try.

[Gene]

"Gene" <gene....@home.com> wrote in message
news:ke3vjf$hqf$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

Kill the erroneous NSS possibility, much have been temporarily
thinking that it was a no start issue in the back of my mind.