the more things change ...
Heron McKeister
hls
"Heron McKeister" <n...@home.com> wrote in message
news:DeQZm.85204$Wd1....@newsfe15.iad...
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34601258/ns/business-small_business
>
> Sal
>
Of course, the automakers, the highwaymen of this millenium, want to
complicate their systems so that none but they can work on them, using
only parts they can access, and at any price they want.
Nothing new here.
GM is a ring leader of this, but not the only one to want to capitalize on
it.
That is one of the reasons I get really pissed when some newbie here
recommends
that you take the car "to the dealer".
Dealers ASS. That just feeds the devil. Support the good people out there
who
study and work and try to offer an alternative to this madness.
fred
news:Fr2dnWsgRZnEbarW...@giganews.com:
Regulating mechanics so they don't screw customers by replacing
unnecessary parts and outright lying without repercussions would be a
good change to help that.
aarcuda69062
"hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
> "Heron McKeister" <n...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:DeQZm.85204$Wd1....@newsfe15.iad...
> > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34601258/ns/business-small_business
> >
> > Sal
> >
>
> Of course, the automakers, the highwaymen of this millenium, want to
> complicate their systems so that none but they can work on them, using
> only parts they can access, and at any price they want.
>
> Nothing new here.
Correct.
The same cries were heard when alternators replaced generators, when
electronic ignition replaced points, when catalytic convertors started
showing up, when fuel injection replaced carburetors.
> GM is a ring leader of this, but not the only one to want to capitalize on
> it.
How exactly is GM the ring leader? I can't think of any other company
that has made technical training more available for free to the
independent service shops than GM or one of its subsidiaries.
> That is one of the reasons I get really pissed when some newbie here
> recommends
> that you take the car "to the dealer".
If the independents won't step up to the plate and get the training they
need and invest in real equipment, what other alternative is there?
> Dealers ASS. That just feeds the devil. Support the good people out there
> who
> study and work and try to offer an alternative to this madness.
Those who you say should be supported should deserve the support first
don't you think?
aarcuda69062
wrote:
Wrong vent...
The article had nothing to do with replacing unnecessary parts or lying
mechanics other than mechanics who happen to lie about the availability
of service information and equipment.
More levels of bureaucracy isn't going to do anything other than
increase costs to the consumer.
Tegger
>>
> Regulating mechanics so they don't screw customers by replacing
> unnecessary parts and outright lying without repercussions would be a
> good change to help that.
>
>
Mechanics are already regulated through occupational licensing.
And I don't think I've ever personally encountered outright fraud in any of
my dealings with professionals.
I /have/ seen plenty of examples of ignorance, incompetence and laziness,
with any cover-up efforts being designed to hide the effects of that
ignorance, incompetence and laziness.
My personal belief is that even as automobile design has become more and
more sophisticated over the decades, the same sorts of individuals tend to
be drawn to the trade as always have been.
So you now have a lot of "technicians" who would have been perfectly
competent learning the little required to change points or adjust brakes,
but are wholly incompetent to service/repair a modern DOHC Toyota Tercel
engine with OBD-II.
--
Tegger
Scott Dorsey
>I /have/ seen plenty of examples of ignorance, incompetence and laziness,
>with any cover-up efforts being designed to hide the effects of that
>ignorance, incompetence and laziness.
>
>My personal belief is that even as automobile design has become more and
>more sophisticated over the decades, the same sorts of individuals tend to
>be drawn to the trade as always have been.
>
>So you now have a lot of "technicians" who would have been perfectly
>competent learning the little required to change points or adjust brakes,
>but are wholly incompetent to service/repair a modern DOHC Toyota Tercel
>engine with OBD-II.
And sadly this is not specific to the auto industry either.
When I was in high school, I was not allowed to take auto shop because only
students with poor academic performance were allowed in auto shop. Thirty
years later, it's hard to find mechanics with the kind of skills needed to
fix modern cars. There is a connection between these two things.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Ashton Crusher
wrote:
>fred <fr...@bedrock.rock> wrote in news:Xns9CEEEFA...@127.0.0.1:
>
>
>>>
>> Regulating mechanics so they don't screw customers by replacing
>> unnecessary parts and outright lying without repercussions would be a
>> good change to help that.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>Mechanics are already regulated through occupational licensing.
>
>And I don't think I've ever personally encountered outright fraud in any of
>my dealings with professionals.
>
You must never have been to a Firestone Auto Center, Sears Auto
Center, Midas Auto center, Just Brakes, AAMCO, etc.
Tegger
news:mhqhj596av9l7l716...@4ax.com:
> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 15:53:13 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <inv...@invalid.inv>
> wrote:
>
>>fred <fr...@bedrock.rock> wrote in news:Xns9CEEEFA...@127.0.0.1:
>>
>>
>>>>
>>> Regulating mechanics so they don't screw customers by replacing
>>> unnecessary parts and outright lying without repercussions would be
>>> a good change to help that.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Mechanics are already regulated through occupational licensing.
>>
>>And I don't think I've ever personally encountered outright fraud in
>>any of my dealings with professionals.
>>
>
> You must never have been to a Firestone Auto Center, Sears Auto
> Center, Midas Auto center, Just Brakes, AAMCO, etc.
Or maybe I'm just being too kind. Maybe I'm ascribing to ignorance,
incompetence and laziness what were actually attempts at defrauding me.
--
Tegger
Tegger
news:hham6v$3hj$1...@panix2.panix.com:
>
> When I was in high school, I was not allowed to take auto shop because
> only students with poor academic performance were allowed in auto
> shop.
My high school had no such restriction, but the kind of students you
mention were exactly the sort which tended to gravitate towards auto shop
and other such "vocational" classes. These were often the same "tough",
"cool" kids who hung out in the smoking area.
Auto shop meant little reading or writing, and mostly hands-on grease-
monkey work. Suited them just fine.
> Thirty years later, it's hard to find mechanics with the kind
> of skills needed to fix modern cars. There is a connection between
> these two things.
I believe so too.
People who are mechanically and electrically intelligent and inquisitive,
as well as fastidiously methodical and careful, tend not to end up as auto
mechanics. There are plenty of other occupations which are more appealing
to individuals with those characteristics.
The good mechanics ARE out there, but they are very few and very far
between. I have one of them available for myself. He's excellent, but he's
getting close to retirement. I don't know what I'm going to do when he
finally steps down.
--
Tegger
hls
"aarcuda69062" <none...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:nonelson-7175E9...@nothing.attdns.com...
> In article <Fr2dnWsgRZnEbarW...@giganews.com>,
> "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
>> Nothing new here.
>
> Correct.
> The same cries were heard when alternators replaced generators, when
> electronic ignition replaced points, when catalytic convertors started
> showing up, when fuel injection replaced carburetors.
That is true. The alternator was a far cry from some of the systems today
that are integrated because it give a degree of control and guaranteed
income.
There are quite a few of this.
>> GM is a ring leader of this, but not the only one to want to capitalize
>> on
>> it.
>
> How exactly is GM the ring leader? I can't think of any other company
> that has made technical training more available for free to the
> independent service shops than GM or one of its subsidiaries.
**********
Apparently they are narrowing the noose on freeness. GM was one of the
first, to my knowledge, to try to engineer systems that only they should be
able to capitalize upon. This was brought up a few years ago, and Ian
(Shiden Kai)
(whom I respect greatly) confirmed that this is true, and accelerating.
>
> Those who you say should be supported should deserve the support first
> don't you think?
Absolutely they should deserve the support, by excellence in what they do,
and
sound and ethical business practices. I always figured you to be one of
those
people.
fred
news:Xns9CEF6EA...@208.90.168.18:
I see what you're saying, but making the profession an actual profession
like lawyers, engineers and doctors with training certification and
possible disbarment in certain circumstances by peers would change
things a lot.
Tegger
>
>
> I see what you're saying, but making the profession an actual profession
> like lawyers, engineers and doctors with training certification and
> possible disbarment in certain circumstances by peers would change
> things a lot.
>
>
I'd prefer to see policemen and bureaucrats subject to that, myself. They
do much more damage than bad auto mechanics.
--
Tegger
fred
news:Xns9CEFB06F...@208.90.168.18:
Police already are. Politicians are basically nothing more than
uneducated gadflies IMHO.
hls
"Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
>
> I'd prefer to see policemen and bureaucrats subject to that, myself. They
> do much more damage than bad auto mechanics.
> Tegger
>
I think burocrats are hopeless. They are Orwells pigs.
I HAVE seen policemen who are professional, calm, and just...In the UK and
in Europe. Not here in Dogpatch.
Heron McKeister
news:j8-dneMxF4JcpKTW...@giganews.com...
Heaven is a place where:
The lovers are Italian
The chefs are French
The mechanics are German
The police are English
It's all organized by the Swiss
Hell is a place where:
The lovers are Swiss
The chefs are English
The mechanics are French
The police are German
It's all organized by the Italians
Scott Dorsey
>
>I see what you're saying, but making the profession an actual profession
>like lawyers, engineers and doctors with training certification and
>possible disbarment in certain circumstances by peers would change
>things a lot.
It doesn't seem to have done much good for doctors and lawyers.
hls
"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:hhbj1g$lfh$1...@panix2.panix.com...
> In article <Xns9CEF8CC...@127.0.0.1>, fred <fr...@bedrock.rock>
> wrote:
>>
>>I see what you're saying, but making the profession an actual profession
>>like lawyers, engineers and doctors with training certification and
>>possible disbarment in certain circumstances by peers would change
>>things a lot.
>
> It doesn't seem to have done much good for doctors and lawyers.
Im not sure I understand what you mean, Scott. Are you saying that doctors
and lawyers have not distinguished themselves by the so-called professional
codes that are in place?
I think the lawyers clearly havent. The doctors have held a little higher
ground.
fred
> In article <Xns9CEF8CC...@127.0.0.1>, fred <fr...@bedrock.rock>
> wrote:
>>
>>I see what you're saying, but making the profession an actual
>>profession like lawyers, engineers and doctors with training
>>certification and possible disbarment in certain circumstances by
>>peers would change things a lot.
>
> It doesn't seem to have done much good for doctors and lawyers.
> --scott
>
A bit too generalized to comment on other than it all depends on how it
all is done.
Vic Smith
wrote:
>
>You must never have been to a Firestone Auto Center, Sears Auto
>Center, Midas Auto center, Just Brakes, AAMCO, etc.
>
Just got off the phone with my son, who's in Australia.
They have a required auto inspection program there.
He bought a beater Toyota for 400 bucks, and it had to be inspected.
First certified shop wanted $1000 for new shocks to pass it.
Second certified shop passed it with a weld on the exhaust and new
wiper blades - 60 bucks total.
He didn't need wiper blades.
--Vic
hls
"Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:7fpij597d26tn25k7...@4ax.com...
I think you run into that in a lot of places. My Buick wouldnt pass the EU
exam in Europe. Some of the ball joint rubbers were cracked, but not
leaking, and there were a lot of other comments. This sort of thing would
not even begin to fail a car in the USA.
I got some parts flown in from the USA and managed to get it to pass muster.
Valve cover seeps are bad, as are a bunch of other things. As you may have
heard Cuhulin post earlier, in some parts of the USA, you go in and they put
an approved sticker on your car, no matter what it is like.
aarcuda69062
Tegger <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> fred <fr...@bedrock.rock> wrote in news:Xns9CEEEFA...@127.0.0.1:
>
>
> >>
> > Regulating mechanics so they don't screw customers by replacing
> > unnecessary parts and outright lying without repercussions would be a
> > good change to help that.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Mechanics are already regulated through occupational licensing.
In Canada from what I understand.
In the Yew Ess, the only state that I know of that has licensing is
Michigan.
> And I don't think I've ever personally encountered outright fraud in any of
> my dealings with professionals.
I think it is quite rare myself.
> I /have/ seen plenty of examples of ignorance, incompetence and laziness,
> with any cover-up efforts being designed to hide the effects of that
> ignorance, incompetence and laziness.
If the consumer would question the qualifications of the shops/mechanics
they are choosing, market forces would take care of the ignorance and
incompetent part.
> My personal belief is that even as automobile design has become more and
> more sophisticated over the decades, the same sorts of individuals tend to
> be drawn to the trade as always have been.
>
> So you now have a lot of "technicians" who would have been perfectly
> competent learning the little required to change points or adjust brakes,
> but are wholly incompetent to service/repair a modern DOHC Toyota Tercel
> engine with OBD-II.
They get to limp along picking up the scraps.
aarcuda69062
"hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
> > How exactly is GM the ring leader? I can't think of any other company
> > that has made technical training more available for free to the
> > independent service shops than GM or one of its subsidiaries.
>
> **********
> Apparently they are narrowing the noose on freeness. GM was one of the
> first, to my knowledge, to try to engineer systems that only they should be
> able to capitalize upon. This was brought up a few years ago, and Ian
> (Shiden Kai)
> (whom I respect greatly) confirmed that this is true, and accelerating.
Do you remember the specifics?
> > Those who you say should be supported should deserve the support first
> > don't you think?
>
> Absolutely they should deserve the support, by excellence in what they do,
> and
> sound and ethical business practices. I always figured you to be one of
> those
> people.
Thank you. I try my best to stay current. I've always said, there's
more than enough honest money to be made in this industry, there's no
need to be a cheat and a scoundrel.
Ashton Crusher
There is ZERO evidence that these inspections achieve anything except
putting money in the pockets of "inspection shops". Just another scam
put in place by a combination of political morons wanting campaign
contributions and special interest groups like auto repair
associations and parts manufacturers.
Ashton Crusher
>In article <Xns9CEF8CC...@127.0.0.1>, fred <fr...@bedrock.rock> wrote:
>>
>>I see what you're saying, but making the profession an actual profession
>>like lawyers, engineers and doctors with training certification and
>>possible disbarment in certain circumstances by peers would change
>>things a lot.
>
>It doesn't seem to have done much good for doctors and lawyers.
>--scott
Are you kidding?? At least in regard to lawyers, they are the ONLY
professional group that has the ability to run their own "oversight"
rather then some state board running it. You do realize that the
"Bar" is NOT a gvt agency but is just the lawyers own professional
organization. Until a rare honest judge ruled that the BAR could not
infringe on the first amendment it was illegal for lawyers to
advertise. Why? Because it would drive down fees and teh BAR didn't
want that.
hls
> In article <SaudnZPy_KvphKTW...@giganews.com>,
> "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
>
>> > How exactly is GM the ring leader? I can't think of any other company
>> > that has made technical training more available for free to the
>> > independent service shops than GM or one of its subsidiaries.
>>
>> **********
>> Apparently they are narrowing the noose on freeness. GM was one of the
>> first, to my knowledge, to try to engineer systems that only they should
>> be
>> able to capitalize upon. This was brought up a few years ago, and Ian
>> (Shiden Kai)
>> (whom I respect greatly) confirmed that this is true, and accelerating.
>
> Do you remember the specifics?
I dont remember right now. It may have been some of the electronics
systems.
I have always thought that the integrated fuel pump module was an answer to
a problem that didnt exist.
Vic Smith
My point was aimed at the corrupt mechanic practices, not the
inspections per se. Just the fact he was able to go down the street
and knock $940 off his tab points that out.
There's no reason an inspection program can't use objective criteria
to reject a car.
Put it on a rack and if there's excessive suspension play, marginal
brakes, or leaks, require it be fixed.
Get a price, then get a second opinion. Pretty much what my son did.
Next time I talk to my son I'll ask if he had to pay the first shop
for the inspection. You shouldn't have to, and there should be no
inspection fee.
An honest shop will make their money on the repairs, and a dishonest
shop will have no incentive to pass out inspection stickers for fees.
Some folks will pay off crooked mechs to get the inspection sticker
without doing the proper repairs, but in the end the general public
will fare better.
The typical law enforcement agency sting operation, and shut down of
sticker sellers will keep most of the crooked mechs at bay.
More money in doing honest repair work.
Your Buick cracked ball joint rubber seems like overkill, especially
if annual inspections are required.
But if a crack is a crack, it's at least non-arbitrary and consistent
in fucking everybody.
But basically you're saying that either no EU cars have cracks in ball
joint rubber, or you got screwed.
I'm against all such inspection programs.
I'd have to see evidence that unrepaired cars are doing more harm to
society than the inspection program.
Like forensics on cars involved in fatal accident proving they cause
more deaths than the number of wives killed by crazed husbands when
they get a bill for $1000 because of minor cracks in ball joint
rubber, and realize they can't pay for their mortgage or buy their
psych meds.
--Vic
aarcuda69062
"hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
> "aarcuda69062" <none...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:nonelson-6693C8...@nothing.attdns.com...
> > In article <SaudnZPy_KvphKTW...@giganews.com>,
> > "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
> >
> >> > How exactly is GM the ring leader? I can't think of any other company
> >> > that has made technical training more available for free to the
> >> > independent service shops than GM or one of its subsidiaries.
> >>
> >> **********
> >> Apparently they are narrowing the noose on freeness. GM was one of the
> >> first, to my knowledge, to try to engineer systems that only they should
> >> be
> >> able to capitalize upon. This was brought up a few years ago, and Ian
> >> (Shiden Kai)
> >> (whom I respect greatly) confirmed that this is true, and accelerating.
> >
> > Do you remember the specifics?
>
>
> I dont remember right now. It may have been some of the electronics
> systems.
I can't think of any electronics system on a late model GM vehicle that
can't be serviced by an independent shop that is properly equipped and
trained.
The equipment is freely available, the service information is freely
available and the programming is freely available. Freely available
doesn't mean free however.
The training is what I mentioned in an earlier post. Two weeks ago I
took a Delco class in Appleton Wi. drove 90 miles each way. The
instructor is one of the best in the GM stable, he, the Delco rep in
attendance and the rep from the warehouse profusely thanked those of us
who attended for showing up. At the end I questioned the Delco rep as
to why this particular series of classes were not available closer to
Milwaukee (being totally selfish and ignoring that the instructor had
driven from Chicago) his reply was that there wasn't enough interest in
the Milwaukee area. Also worth noting is that although this was an AC
Delco class and AC Delco paid trainer, this particular module of the
class dealt with Ford (Motorcraft) flash J2534 programming. They also
had a class module for Chrysler and there is one coming up on the Asian
brands.
Not quite as nice as when every GM training center had a United Delco
classroom and instructor on site but I'll take it either way.
> I have always thought that the integrated fuel pump module was an answer to
> a problem that didnt exist.
But it does address a problem.
Evaporative emissions. It insures leak integrity and insures that the
fuel level sensor will read accurately enough that the EVAP monitors run
when they are supposed to.
Scott Dorsey
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>I see what you're saying, but making the profession an actual profession
>>>like lawyers, engineers and doctors with training certification and
>>>possible disbarment in certain circumstances by peers would change
>>>things a lot.
>>
>> It doesn't seem to have done much good for doctors and lawyers.
>
>and lawyers have not distinguished themselves by the so-called professional
>codes that are in place?
Precisely.
>I think the lawyers clearly havent. The doctors have held a little higher
>ground.
Check out the ads in the airline magazines for plastic surgeons some time.
--scott
Scott Dorsey
>
>There is ZERO evidence that these inspections achieve anything except
>putting money in the pockets of "inspection shops". Just another scam
>put in place by a combination of political morons wanting campaign
>contributions and special interest groups like auto repair
>associations and parts manufacturers.
I have seen safety inspections pick up some pretty scary stuff. And having
lived in states without safety inspections, I have seen some pretty scary
stuff on the road that should have been picked up with an inspection. I'm
talking about stuff like hand-welded control arms and nearly nonfunctional
brakes.
Yes, some shops do use state inspections as an opportunity to find things
that will become revenue sources, and some of those things aren't things
that really exist. But don't blame the whole procedure just because of that.
Ashton Crusher
Same thing could be accomplished with the external fuel pumps used on
some vehicles and you wouldn't have to pay $500 ($350 labor) to
replace a fuel pump. I think the main reason is that it's just
cheaper to assemble the car if you stick EVERYTHING in the fuel tank.
Vic Smith
wrote:
>
>Same thing could be accomplished with the external fuel pumps used on
>some vehicles and you wouldn't have to pay $500 ($350 labor) to
>replace a fuel pump. I think the main reason is that it's just
>cheaper to assemble the car if you stick EVERYTHING in the fuel tank.
The fuel pumps my son replaced on our cars have cost more than $150.
Think the one on the '93 Grand Am was maybe $271 - that rings a bell.
And we shopped it. That's the complete unit. Can't remember now, but
after a false and cheaper start, maybe without the sender part, it was
the way to go. Luckily what we bought first was exchanged.
I though the reason for in-tank pumps was to cool them, since they're
working harder with FI.
Is that wrong?
--Vic
Heron McKeister
What a steaming load. State inspections have always
been about generating revenue. What percentage of
traffic incidents involving fatalities, injuries or even
the simplest of accidents does documentation or any
statistical analysis indicate have a causal relationship
with faulty control equipment; and what percentage
of those would or could be averted by a necessarily
imperfect and always corrupt yearly inspection system?
Heron McKeister
news:bmekj5pfl4ql3hder...@4ax.com...
There are actually other valid concerns and
reasons for placing the pump in the tank. .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_pumps#Electric_Pump
I however can think of none for not locating them in the
vicinity of an easily removed inspection plate (such as
under a rear seat) so that they can be easily extracted.
Heron McKeister
Oops, I gues that link should have read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_pumps#Electric_pump
Tegger
news:nonelson-431A23...@nothing.attdns.com:
> In article <Xns9CEF6EA...@208.90.168.18>,
> Tegger <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote:
>
>> fred <fr...@bedrock.rock> wrote in
>> news:Xns9CEEEFA...@127.0.0.1:
>>
>>
>> >>
>> > Regulating mechanics so they don't screw customers by replacing
>> > unnecessary parts and outright lying without repercussions would be
>> > a good change to help that.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> Mechanics are already regulated through occupational licensing.
>
> In Canada from what I understand.
> In the Yew Ess, the only state that I know of that has licensing is
> Michigan.
Hm. So then I could just open up a shop outside of MI and bill myself as
a "mechanic" and nobody would be the wiser?
>
>> And I don't think I've ever personally encountered outright fraud in
>> any of my dealings with professionals.
>
> I think it is quite rare myself.
>
>> I /have/ seen plenty of examples of ignorance, incompetence and
>> laziness, with any cover-up efforts being designed to hide the
>> effects of that ignorance, incompetence and laziness.
>
> If the consumer would question the qualifications of the
> shops/mechanics they are choosing, market forces would take care of
> the ignorance and incompetent part.
And so I have, and have therefore declined to have my cars serviced at
most places I've scoped out.
Then I made one BIG mistake at a shop that billed itself as a Japanese
car specialist. See below.
>
>> My personal belief is that even as automobile design has become more
>> and more sophisticated over the decades, the same sorts of
>> individuals tend to be drawn to the trade as always have been.
>>
>> So you now have a lot of "technicians" who would have been perfectly
>> competent learning the little required to change points or adjust
>> brakes, but are wholly incompetent to service/repair a modern DOHC
>> Toyota Tercel engine with OBD-II.
>
> They get to limp along picking up the scraps.
>
We were victimized by such a professional monkey when the head gasket in
the Tercel went two summers ago. He's a licensed mechanic, about 45-
years-old. The shop's owner told me he's their "top tech".
I chose that shop because they'd done a good job for me on the A/C issue
with the same car, and because their customer service was pretty good.
Here's what the monkey got wrong:
1) Did not know about the "scissor gear" on the one camshaft, so idle
very bad and MIL illuminated with cam position sensor error;
2) Failed to seal end cam-cap, and so oil leaked down outside of head;
3) Upper rad hose installed backwards & fouling on air intake duct
4) Throttle cable mount bent and loose, had to straighten and readjust;
5) Valve adjustment shims mixed up; all clearances wrong;
6) Got oil in the coolant. Had to change coolant as soon as I got home,
and have spent the last two years cleaning residue out as it rises to
the top (residue tends to ruin rad caps by attacking rubber);
The shop fixed the scissor-gear thing on a second try after I went back,
but idle was still rough and the oil leak was still there. I drove 50
miles to my old guy, who found and fixed the other problems. Original
bill was $800. My guy's bill was $400, but the car is now running
correctly again.
So I'm back to me and my old guy being the only ones to touch our cars.
--
Tegger
Tegger
news:nonelson-6693C8...@nothing.attdns.com:
You come across as honest to me too.
My mechanic (the most knowledgeable and honest mechanic I've ever come
across) tells me he wouldn't have to cheat even if he wanted to: People
make most of their own problems with their cars and the ones they work on,
so all he has to do is sit back and watch the work come in.
--
Tegger
hls
> Evaporative emissions. It insures leak integrity and insures that the
> fuel level sensor will read accurately enough that the EVAP monitors run
> when they are supposed to.
A problem that possibly doesnt need addressing. This modular unit costs
about $400-600 for replacement, compared with the older in tank units which
were a fraction of that.
hls
> The fuel pumps my son replaced on our cars have cost more than $150.
> Think the one on the '93 Grand Am was maybe $271 - that rings a bell.
> And we shopped it. That's the complete unit. Can't remember now, but
> after a false and cheaper start, maybe without the sender part, it was
> the way to go. Luckily what we bought first was exchanged.
> I though the reason for in-tank pumps was to cool them, since they're
> working harder with FI.
> Is that wrong?
>
> --Vic
We're not talking about the in-tank pumps of that era, Vic. Those pumps
were cooled by the fuel, possibly had some other advantages. I had one
replaced at a garage for $160 total.
These new units have the fuel pump and module integrated together. I have
found them at NAPA for on the order of $400. Niece had one replace at
a shop in the Dallas Fort Worth area for $600.
hls
"Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
>
> a "mechanic" and nobody would be the wiser?
Teg, in Texas you can open a shop and bill yourself as anything you want.
BUT, we have some of the most effective and complete deceptive trade
practices legislation in this in the nation.
There are several sections of this law, but it basically says that if you
say it,
you'd better do it. Make a claim, even perhaps a foolish one, and you have
made a covenant. Dont tell someone "This will solve your problem" unless
you know for sure what his problems are and that you can and will solve
them.
If someone files a suit against you under this law, the burden of proof is
on
you, and the penalty set by law is damages times 3.
fred
news:nonelson-D5D97D...@nothing.attdns.com:
Interesting. Was it like this before the death of the full service gas
stations and service bays?
Ashton Crusher
>Ashton Crusher <de...@moore.net> wrote:
>>
>>There is ZERO evidence that these inspections achieve anything except
>>putting money in the pockets of "inspection shops". Just another scam
>>put in place by a combination of political morons wanting campaign
>>contributions and special interest groups like auto repair
>>associations and parts manufacturers.
>
>I have seen safety inspections pick up some pretty scary stuff. And having
>lived in states without safety inspections, I have seen some pretty scary
>stuff on the road that should have been picked up with an inspection. I'm
>talking about stuff like hand-welded control arms and nearly nonfunctional
>brakes.
>
There is ZERO evidence that fixing those things makes any difference
to anyone except the vehicle owner. So your ball joints are worn
'beyond limits". Big deal, you can probably drive them another 20,000
miles before they fall apart, if they ever do. Why should the owner
of a car that is "just good enough" to make it another year with no
repairs be forced to spend $100's of dollars to fix stuff that will
not have the slightest effect on accidents. If these inspections are
so valuable then it should be easily demonstrated by looking at the
accident statistics between states with inspections and without. The
last time I saw decent statistics on cause of accidents it listed
"mechanical defects" at around 2%. And there is no reason to think
yearly inspected would even change that very small percentage.
aarcuda69062
wrote:
> > Not quite as nice as when every GM training center had a United Delco
> > classroom and instructor on site but I'll take it either way.
>
> Interesting. Was it like this before the death of the full service gas
> stations and service bays?
Trick question?
There is a Mobil station 2 blocks from me, they have a full service
island and 4 service bays. The owner bought 2 fully loaded engine
analyzers from me some years ago.
aarcuda69062
Ashton Crusher <de...@moore.net> wrote:
Such as? The last vehicle I worked on that had a external electric fuel
pump was a Subaru XT (or whatever their little sports car was) IIRC, it
was an 80s model year.
> and you wouldn't have to pay $500 ($350 labor) to
> replace a fuel pump.
You don't have to pay $350 labor to change a fuel pump. I can change
the fuel pump in most Asian brands in less than a half hour, same for
any Chrysler LH car, some GMs allow access thru the trunk also.
> I think the main reason is that it's just
> cheaper to assemble the car if you stick EVERYTHING in the fuel tank.
Nope. Evidence back in the 80s when any one particular car model could
be had with either EFI or carburetor, the carb versions still used a
mechanical engine mounted fuel pump. But HLS wasn't commenting on in
tank fuel pumps, he was commenting on the fact that many are a one unit
integrated module that includes the pump, fuel level sensor, vapor
pressure sensor and in some cases the fuel pressure regulator and fuel
filter.
aarcuda69062
Tegger <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> >>
> >> Mechanics are already regulated through occupational licensing.
> >
> > In Canada from what I understand.
> > In the Yew Ess, the only state that I know of that has licensing is
> > Michigan.
>
>
>
> Hm. So then I could just open up a shop outside of MI and bill myself as
> a "mechanic" and nobody would be the wiser?
More or less, yes. if you're good enough, things are fine, if you screw
up or screw over, market forces will put you out of business.
That guy should have begged off of the job if he didn't know what he was
doing. But as I mentioned over in the Yoda group, they don't know what
they don't know. I turn down big dollar repairs on Audi's all the time
because I feel that without factory training, I'd be committing
malpractice even if the repairs did go right.
aarcuda69062
Tegger <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> aarcuda69062 <none...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> news:nonelson-6693C8...@nothing.attdns.com:
>
> > In article <SaudnZPy_KvphKTW...@giganews.com>,
> > "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
> >
>
> >>
> >> Absolutely they should deserve the support, by excellence in what
> >> they do, and
> >> sound and ethical business practices. I always figured you to be one
> >> of those
> >> people.
> >
> > Thank you. I try my best to stay current. I've always said, there's
> > more than enough honest money to be made in this industry, there's no
> > need to be a cheat and a scoundrel.
>
>
>
> You come across as honest to me too.
Thank you, much appreciated.
> My mechanic (the most knowledgeable and honest mechanic I've ever come
> across) tells me he wouldn't have to cheat even if he wanted to: People
> make most of their own problems with their cars and the ones they work on,
> so all he has to do is sit back and watch the work come in.
I've had two slow weeks this entire year, no problem because it gives me
time to organize the shop and catch up on paper work. Right now I'm
swamped again.
aarcuda69062
"hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
The older units were -older-, they are/were pre OBD II. There may be
exceptions where a modular style predates 1996 emissions regs but I
can't think of many.
Heron McKeister
I performed an R&R on a mid 90's Regal fuel pump for
a friend this summer. She had quotes of over $600. The
only item actually in need of replacement was the pump
itself (new Delphi was $77) as the pickup assembly incl.
the pulsator, level sensor, wiring ... were all just fine.
Total charge was $155 saving her in the vicinity of $500.
fred
news:nonelson-F93673...@nothing.attdns.com:
> In article <Xns9CF08A3...@127.0.0.1>, fred <fr...@bedrock.rock>
> wrote:
>
>> > Not quite as nice as when every GM training center had a United
>> > Delco classroom and instructor on site but I'll take it either way.
>>
>> Interesting. Was it like this before the death of the full service
>> gas stations and service bays?
>
> Trick question?
>
No, they're *very* hard to come by around here. I can't think of a full
service station in Ottawa that has service bays anymore.
> There is a Mobil station 2 blocks from me, they have a full service
> island and 4 service bays. The owner bought 2 fully loaded engine
> analyzers from me some years ago.
>
So that's a no then. What I figured would be the case. If people get gas
at the same plae they get their repairs done, they're more tempted to
raise objections about poor service I would think. In addition, there being
less places to service cars - possibly due to ECU's etc, there would be
less people to train and less work outside of what is done at dealerships. My
father told me once about mechanical fuel injection being on planes long before
it was ever on a car. One never needs electronics for a car design to work IMHO.
Tegger
>
> The last time I saw decent statistics on cause of accidents
> it listed "mechanical defects" at around 2%.
The number up here in Ontario Canada is officially 1.2%.
Last year available: 2005
<http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/safety/orsar/orsar05/chp5_1_05.shtml#ref5_a>
Also, that number only represents the number of vehicles which, upon
inspection after the collision, were found to have a mechanical defect.
The statistic does NOT say how many of those mechanical defects were
actually directly linked to the collision.
Obviously, if you were to count ONLY those collisions where a mechanical
defect was directly implicated as a significant contributing factor, the
percentage would be much lower than 1.2%.
As a comparison, I have a paper version of 1985's statistics. That
issue shows the percentage of mechanical defects to be 2.2%. There has,
therefore, been about a 45% improvement in the defect rate from 1985
to 2005.
Significantly, Ontario has never had a safety inspection program.
(We do have one that must be performed when the vehicle's ownership
changes hands.)
--
Tegger
aarcuda69062
wrote:
> aarcuda69062 <none...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> news:nonelson-F93673...@nothing.attdns.com:
>
> > In article <Xns9CF08A3...@127.0.0.1>, fred <fr...@bedrock.rock>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> > Not quite as nice as when every GM training center had a United
> >> > Delco classroom and instructor on site but I'll take it either way.
> >>
> >> Interesting. Was it like this before the death of the full service
> >> gas stations and service bays?
> >
> > Trick question?
> >
> No, they're *very* hard to come by around here. I can't think of a full
> service station in Ottawa that has service bays anymore.
>
> > There is a Mobil station 2 blocks from me, they have a full service
> > island and 4 service bays. The owner bought 2 fully loaded engine
> > analyzers from me some years ago.
> >
> So that's a no then.
It's an 'I don't know.' I don;t know the exact date that GM started
their training centers or when United Delco took up residence in them.
The building architecture of the ones I've been to suggest that they
were built in the mid 50s.
> What I figured would be the case. If people get gas
> at the same place they get their repairs done, they're more tempted to
> raise objections about poor service I would think. In addition, there being
> less places to service cars - possibly due to ECU's etc, there would be
> less people to train and less work outside of what is done at dealerships.
Many places that did have gas and service bays simply gave up the gas
sales due to environmental issues. Others were railroaded out due to
fu-fu zoning regulations. Soda and chips are a whole lot more
profitable than repair work, so many just boarded over the overhead
doors, remodeled the inside and went into the groceries for suckers
business.
The population to train has increased steadily over the years. Cars last
longer but due to complexity, more training is needed, testing and
diagnosis take longer so more trained bodies are needed. Repairs take
longer so again, more trained bodies are needed.
Inside dealerships versus outside dealerships is more an issue of
whether the car is under warranty and customers perceptions WRT price
and value. The repair market has and will continue to expand, there
will be growth and demand for skilled technical labor.
> My father told me once about mechanical fuel injection being on planes long
> before
> it was ever on a car.
True.
> One never needs electronics for a car design to work
> IMHO.
You're quite wrong. It would be impossible to meet current emissions
and fuel economy regulations without electronics. Before electronic
fuel injection, right about this time of year we'd be stacking the
tow-in flooded cars in the service lot like cord wood. That's been
replaced by people who now want their ABS and traction control fixed
because of the slick roads.