How does gasoline go "bad"? When?

[Existential Angst]

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2668/why-does-gasoline-go-stale-so-quickly

Basically answered all my questions -- I don't necessarily agree with it
all, but it's a good discussion.
For example, it's very difficult to oxidize a hydrocarbon without enzymes,
catalysts, and the like. And I don't think the "lost volatiles" in old gas
amount to much ito performance.

Bottom line is, I don't think "bad gasoline" ito age is much to worry about.
After this bullshit with Sandy, NOW we got a gas crisis, so ahm fixin to
store a bunch. I figger I'll "exchange" it yearly -- it's own pita, but it
beats waiting 4 hours on line for 10 gals of fucking gas.

I used to scoff at survivalists.... but not any more. I'm realizing that
urbanites/surburbanites are essentially walking around with their cheeks
spread.
--
EA

[jon_banquer]

On Nov 1, 8:10 pm, "Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
> http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2668/why-does-gasoline-go-st...

I don't agree. If you store it you need to use a stabilizer.

[PrecisionmachinisT]

"jon_banquer" <jonba...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a4f52bcb-1362-486f...@b4g2000pby.googlegroups.com...

====

BHT

Also commonly used as an anti oxidizing agent in breakfast cereals.

[Existential Angst]

"jon_banquer" <jonba...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a4f52bcb-1362-486f...@b4g2000pby.googlegroups.com...

==============================================

Mebbe a stabilizer would help for really long periods, but I think it could
be stored for a year and still be OK, without stabilizers. The article
seemed to indicate as much, if stored properly.
--
EA

[jon_banquer]

On Nov 1, 9:20 pm, "PrecisionmachinisT"
<precisionmachinist...@notmail.com> wrote:
> "jon_banquer" <jonbanq...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

Apparently many others uses as well which I never would have known
until I Googled BHT.

Thanks for the enlightenment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butylated_hydroxytoluene

[jon_banquer]

On Nov 1, 9:22 pm, "Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
> "jon_banquer" <jonbanq...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

Based on personal experience I absolutely don't agree. The old gas
gummed up the carb of a lawn mower that I let it sit in and it would
not start. I'll never make the mistake of storing gas for a long
period of time without using a stabilizer again.

[Steve W.]

I have stored gas for a year and although it will run a modern vehicle
IF you blend it into fuel already in the tank you can tell that it isn't
quite right. In small engines it runs MUCH worse. I rotate my gas every
3 months, not hard to do if you just dump the can into your vehicle,
then fill the can back up. I tag all my cans with simple string tags and
a marker. I have 20 gallons that is back-up for whatever. Then there are
a couple others that are for the mowers/trimmers/ saws and such. The
mixed fuels get mixed 1 gallon at a time and ONLY with non-ethanol gas.
The saws and trimmers run MUCH better without the booze. So do most air
cooled engines. The ethanol causes the engine to run leaner and hotter
causing problems.

--
Steve W.

[Existential Angst]

"Steve W." <csr...@NOTyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:k6viit$erv$1...@dont-email.me...

In response to jb, I think gas left in a lawn mower carb and gas left in a
storage can are a bit different.

But, I'm all for feedback here, and mebbe 1 year is too long. I proly
couldn't handle the gas-exchange hassle more than every 6 mos, tho.

The article did point out that booze gas should be more prone to aging
effects, as the hydrophilic ethanol can attract more crap, like, well,
water.

I'm basically looking for a ballpark as to what I can reasonably get away
with, storage wise.

Funny thing, tho, this gas aging stuff.
--
EA












>
> --
> Steve W.

[Existential Angst]

"jon_banquer" <jonba...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:f5f6aaf8-64ff-4c18...@i7g2000pbf.googlegroups.com...

===========================================

iirc, BHT itself should be pretty flammable.
--
EA

[Richard]

Sure, it's a hassle right now because of the storm.
But this will pass.



The very last sentence from your link...

Better to time your gas consumption and purchases so you don't need to
store any — gas prices being what they are, no sense tying up cash in
something that may just go to waste.

[jon_banquer]

On Nov 1, 9:47 pm, "Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
> "Steve W." <csr...@NOTyahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:k6viit$erv$1...@dont-email.me...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Existential Angst wrote:

> >> "jon_banquer" <jonbanq...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

I think the problem is how gummy the gas gets with time from all the
additives they now use. The gasoline sold today is garbage compared to
what it use to be.

[bob haller]

I occasionally use gasoline to clean bearings.

i would cean the bearings and leave the small pan outdoors overnite.
by the next day all the gas would of evaporated leaving just some
greasy dry crud i would wipe out with a rag and toss,

these days the gas leaves a non evaporating residue thats very gooey
and perhap 1/5 the total of the original gas...

it never evaporates........

[m6onz5a]

On Nov 2, 12:22 am, "Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
> "jon_banquer" <jonbanq...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

With my experience if you're storing gas for more than a couple of
months use a stabilizer.

[George]

On 11/1/2012 11:10 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
> http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2668/why-does-gasoline-go-stale-so-quickly
>
> Basically answered all my questions -- I don't necessarily agree with it
> all, but it's a good discussion.
> For example, it's very difficult to oxidize a hydrocarbon without enzymes,
> catalysts, and the like. And I don't think the "lost volatiles" in old gas
> amount to much ito performance.
>
> Bottom line is, I don't think "bad gasoline" ito age is much to worry about.
> After this bullshit with Sandy, NOW we got a gas crisis, so ahm fixin to
> store a bunch. I figger I'll "exchange" it yearly -- it's own pita, but it
> beats waiting 4 hours on line for 10 gals of fucking gas.

That sounds like a novel use for gasoline. I know some people use other
more appropriate liquids and typically much smaller quantities are needed..

[Gene E. Yuss]

"George" <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:k70ge6$rqr$2...@dont-email.me...

I once, quite inadvertently, opened and then for years forgot
about and didn't use some high octane, leaded VP Racing Fuel
(gasoline). I couldn't distinguish any difference between it and
my newly purchased batch when compared to one another.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Steve W. wrote:
>
> I have stored gas for a year and although it will run a modern vehicle
> IF you blend it into fuel already in the tank you can tell that it isn't
> quite right. In small engines it runs MUCH worse. I rotate my gas every
> 3 months, not hard to do if you just dump the can into your vehicle,
> then fill the can back up. I tag all my cans with simple string tags and
> a marker. I have 20 gallons that is back-up for whatever. Then there are
> a couple others that are for the mowers/trimmers/ saws and such. The
> mixed fuels get mixed 1 gallon at a time and ONLY with non-ethanol gas.
> The saws and trimmers run MUCH better without the booze. So do most air
> cooled engines. The ethanol causes the engine to run leaner and hotter
> causing problems.

Briggs & Stratton tell you not to store it for more than 30 days.

[Scott Dorsey]

Steve W. wrote:
>
> I have stored gas for a year and although it will run a modern vehicle
> IF you blend it into fuel already in the tank you can tell that it isn't
> quite right. In small engines it runs MUCH worse. I rotate my gas every
> 3 months, not hard to do if you just dump the can into your vehicle,
> then fill the can back up. I tag all my cans with simple string tags and
> a marker. I have 20 gallons that is back-up for whatever. Then there are
> a couple others that are for the mowers/trimmers/ saws and such. The
> mixed fuels get mixed 1 gallon at a time and ONLY with non-ethanol gas.
> The saws and trimmers run MUCH better without the booze. So do most air
> cooled engines. The ethanol causes the engine to run leaner and hotter
> causing problems.

You'll find most of the newer small engines sold have enlarged jets to run
a little richer. If you're having issues with ethanol, drill your carb jets
out one numbered size and you should be good to go.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[m6onz5a]

I've also heard that some small engines won't run very well with the
87 octane fuels, but they run just fine on the 92-93 octane fuels. I
myself haven't run into this.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

You should have smelt the crap I drained out of my old Onan
generator to get it started this week. And it plugged the main jet
too. NO WAY that sludge would have run the engine. I'll bet it would
have taken a blowtorch to even light it.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

The secret is "stored properly" which means in a sealed container in
a cool dry location. Stored in a vented plastic can or a vented
gastank on equipment in a hot tin garden shed is a long way from
"properly stored"

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Figure 4 months in the summer, 6 months over winter in a full tank.
Half or less if the tank is only half full, or if the summer storage
location is hot and humid.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Gas 50 years ago went bad too. Perhaps not QUITE as quickly - but I
remember well draining awfull stinky gas from vehicles and equipment
that had been sitting back in 1969 as an apprentice mechanic. The
smell hung around for what seemed like an eternity if you spilled the
crap anywhere - and even just the vapour made your coveralls stink for
a week.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 2 Nov 2012 08:15:29 -0500, "Gene E. Yuss" <gene...@home.com>
wrote:

100LL Avgas is fresher when a year old tha the average pump gas after
6 weeks.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 2 Nov 2012 09:13:13 -0700 (PDT), m6onz5a <cor...@comcast.net>
wrote:

This is true with companies like Shell Canada that put NO hooch in
the 93, and 10% in 87. Premium runs fine, regular like crap, and
mid-grade so-so on engines that are sensitive to hooch in the gas.

[jon_banquer]

This is the point I'm trying to make to EA. I had the exact same
problem with the carb on the lawnmower which wouldn't run till I
rebuilt the carb which the old gas totally fucked up with sludge.

[jon_banquer]

Without all the additives in older gasoline my guess would be that it
didn't create the kind of gummy sludge that today's gas does when it
sits for extended periods of time. I could be wrong and I have no
personal experience with older gas. Unfortunately I learned the hard
way with today's gasoline.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

I've had experience with the older gasoline - and although not QUITE
as nasty as today's crap, it was still nasty.

[Ignoramus417]

I always used old gasoline, in my pick-up truck, adding it little by
little to new gasoline.

i

[Jon Danniken]

That's because the alcohol/water fraction doesn't evaporate off
overnight, and it's "gooey" because the material you removed from the
bearings is in it.

Jon

[bob haller]

I left a pan of the goo sit outside in a covered area for a month, the
gooey sludge never evaporated, in earlier time just a hard crud would
remain by the next morning.

gasoline has really changed

[Steve W.]

I'd do that but you can get ethanol free premium gas locally and since
the engines I have call for 90 octane+ it's just as easy to go that
route. It runs about 20 cents a gallon more than the cheap stuff, but
I'm only buying maybe 50 gallons a year. For 10 bucks it just isn't
worth the trouble to re-jet.

--
Steve W.

[Steve W.]

The old leaded gas would take longer to gum up BUT it would. It would
actually dry up to a hard glaze (just like varnish).
Then when the EPA started pushing the lead out and all the different
additives tossed in to replace the lead as an octane enhancer made
things get interesting.

On the flip side current gas isn't as bad if you get it on you and
doesn't smell anywhere near as bad when it goes bad.

BUT the ethanol causes problems in older systems with materials that are
not ethanol safe.

--
Steve W.

[Steve W.]

Yep, BUT the local airport has a FIT selling it to me....

--
Steve W.

[Tegger]

"Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote in
news:50934a73$0$24752$607e...@cv.net:

>
> Mebbe a stabilizer would help for really long periods, but I think it
> could be stored for a year and still be OK, without stabilizers. The
> article seemed to indicate as much, if stored properly.

TEL, MMT, and even MTBE were/are added at the refinery before the fuel was
sent to the distribution centers. There was no special handling needed at
the DCs.

Alcohol, on the other hand, is added to the gas at the DC /while the truck
is being loaded immediately prior to its daily deliveries to retail
outlets/. It is necessary to do this on account of the high corrosiveness
of alcohol, and on account of the tendency of alcoholized fuels to spoil
quickly. This special handling is expensive and troublesome for
distributors, and was/is one of the objections to oxygenated fuels.

At the level of the individual home user, year-old oxygenated gas would be
just fine, since any trouble you may experience would involve you alone.
Refiners, distributors, and retailers cannot afford the risk, considering
their high volume and their exposure to liability.

--
Tegger

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

No, the heavy crap is (sometimes) oxidized fuel - basically a light
tar - and occurs even if you haven't used it as a cleaning solvent.
This id with OLD gas. Fresh gas should almost totally evapourate, but
there is usually enough left to cause at least a stain.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 18:18:35 -0400, "Steve W." <csr...@NOTyahoo.com>
wrote:

>
>On the flip side current gas isn't as bad if you get it on you and
>doesn't smell anywhere near as bad when it goes bad.

The crap I removed from my generator smelled bad enough - and it was
last run a couple years ago so it was not the "old type" gas -
although it WAS old.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 18:19:39 -0400, "Steve W." <csr...@NOTyahoo.com>
wrote:

I use what is drained out of airplanes ( that have sat for some
time) in my lawn mower. Being an airplane owner/builder means I CAN
buy it fresh too.

[Larry W]

Storing gas without stabilizer in a fuel can or other approved container
is not the same as leaving the fuel tank of your mower or other gasoline
powered equipment. (2 stroke engines are especially sensitive) When gas is
not drained from carbs and fuel system gums and deposits can block small
orifices and fuel passages and prevent the engine from starting or running
properly. If the engine fuel system & carb is drained, and then filled using
a can of year old gasoline, it will probably run OK, (may be slight
performance loss with older fuel) OTOH if the same gas is left in the
equipment's fuel tank and fuel system for a year, there very well may be
starting or running problems.

--
Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler. (Albert Einstein)

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

[The Daring Dufas]

On 11/2/2012 12:46 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Nov 2012 21:53:10 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer
> <jonba...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>

****Clip Excess****

>>>> --
>>>> Steve W.
>>
>> I think the problem is how gummy the gas gets with time from all the
>> additives they now use. The gasoline sold today is garbage compared to
>> what it use to be.
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Gas 50 years ago went bad too. Perhaps not QUITE as quickly - but I
> remember well draining awfull stinky gas from vehicles and equipment
> that had been sitting back in 1969 as an apprentice mechanic. The
> smell hung around for what seemed like an eternity if you spilled the
> crap anywhere - and even just the vapour made your coveralls stink for
> a week.
>

That was back when regular gasoline had tetraethyl lead in it. I believe
there was one oil company that sold a more expensive gas
that had no lead. I seem to recall folks calling it clear gas or
something like that. I think that was about the time I rebuilt the
engine on my dad's 1949 Ferguson tractor. Darn, I wish I could recall
which oil company that was selling premium unleaded back before lead was
removed from gasoline by law. O_o

TDD

[Richard]

White Gas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_gas

White gasoline, also called white gas, can also be a name for pure
gasoline, without additives. This was commonly used when leaded gasoline
was the norm, to prevent fouling in situations where the properties of
the tetraethyl lead additive were not required.[2]

Fuel dyes, "White" gas is colorless, as opposed to "regular" octane
fuel, which has orange dye added for identification, or high-octane
"ethyl", which has purple dye added.

White gas should not be confused with white spirit, which is more akin
to kerosene.

[m6onz5a]

I remember AMOCO selling premium gas that was advertised as "the clear
choice" The pump nozzle even had a bubble window so you could see the
crystal clear gas being pumped.

[The Daring Dufas]

I was thinking it might have been Pure Oil Company but AMOCO sounds
right and it's been a while since I've seen any nozzles with a view
port. I do see rusting Pure Oil Co signs every now and then. ^_^

TDD

[Steve Barker]

I don't know why they would. If you are using properly marked cans.
Our little local airport is self serve. No attendant. The local race
boys pull their cars right to the pump on the trailer and 'fill 'er up!'
Along with their barrels and cans.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

[Frank]

On 11/1/2012 11:10 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
> http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2668/why-does-gasoline-go-stale-so-quickly
>
> Basically answered all my questions -- I don't necessarily agree with it
> all, but it's a good discussion.
> For example, it's very difficult to oxidize a hydrocarbon without enzymes,
> catalysts, and the like. And I don't think the "lost volatiles" in old gas
> amount to much ito performance.
>
> Bottom line is, I don't think "bad gasoline" ito age is much to worry about.
> After this bullshit with Sandy, NOW we got a gas crisis, so ahm fixin to
> store a bunch. I figger I'll "exchange" it yearly -- it's own pita, but it
> beats waiting 4 hours on line for 10 gals of fucking gas.
>

> I used to scoff at survivalists.... but not any more. I'm realizing that
> urbanites/surburbanites are essentially walking around with their cheeks
> spread.
>

Decent article and all true.

Gasoline stored in an air tight metal containers with little head space
or inert atmosphere would last forever but best to add stabilizer to
prevent any oxidation. Plastic containers can be permeable to air.
Depends on plastic and thickness.

Even stabilized gas sitting in a carburetor can evaporate leaving gummy
deposits and alcohol/water if exposed to moist air. Butane is the most
volatile component of gas.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Here in Canada it is illegal to sell Avgas for any purpose other
than aircraft engines. Now if you are running a supermod, it has
wings, so you MIGHT get away with it!!!

[Gunner]

On Fri, 2 Nov 2012 00:22:08 -0400, "Existential Angst"
<fit...@optonline.net> wrote:

>"jon_banquer" <jonba...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

>news:a4f52bcb-1362-486f...@b4g2000pby.googlegroups.com...
>On Nov 1, 8:10 pm, "Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
>> http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2668/why-does-gasoline-go-st...
>>

>> Basically answered all my questions -- I don't necessarily agree with it
>> all, but it's a good discussion.
>> For example, it's very difficult to oxidize a hydrocarbon without enzymes,
>> catalysts, and the like. And I don't think the "lost volatiles" in old gas
>> amount to much ito performance.
>>
>> Bottom line is, I don't think "bad gasoline" ito age is much to worry
>> about.
>> After this bullshit with Sandy, NOW we got a gas crisis, so ahm fixin to
>> store a bunch. I figger I'll "exchange" it yearly -- it's own pita, but it
>> beats waiting 4 hours on line for 10 gals of fucking gas.
>>

>> I used to scoff at survivalists.... but not any more. I'm realizing that
>> urbanites/surburbanites are essentially walking around with their cheeks
>> spread.

>> --
>> EA

>
> "Bottom line is, I don't think "bad gasoline" ito age is much to
>worry about."
>

>I don't agree. If you store it you need to use a stabilizer.
>==============================================
>

>Mebbe a stabilizer would help for really long periods, but I think it could
>be stored for a year and still be OK, without stabilizers. The article
>seemed to indicate as much, if stored properly.

It will store for about a year..+/- depending on how hot it is during
the storage period. The hotter it is..the more volitiles boil out.

Stabil and other gas storage stabilizers can..can stretch it out to
about 5 yrs, but 3 yrs is generally considered the Best If Used By.

Gunner

--
"President Obama is not going to lose. He will be re-elected. It is those of
you who have these grand fantasies of that pip-squeak Romney actually having
a chance at winning the election that will have to wake up to reality the
day after the election. I hear there is plenty of room in the rest of the
world where you can reside and establish new citizenship.
Kirby Grant,<KGr...@yahoo.com>

[Steve W.]

The only airport nearby doesn't have fuel for anyone who doesn't have a
hanger OR a plane.
The next closest is far enough that it isn't worth the trip.
I can get Sunoco Purple ( 112 oct. leaded) or 260GT+ ( 104 oct. no-lead)
from a local dealer and use it when I need fuel for the puller or for
the hot-rod...
--
Steve W.

[Gunner]

On Sat, 03 Nov 2012 10:44:02 -0500, Richard <cave...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

White gas is often also known as Naptha, as found in Coleman stoves
and lanterns and equiv.

There can be some serious confusion in some places.

[Grumpy]

"Gunner" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:derb98ptbkuoqbjhb...@4ax.com...

Where in hell did you come up with that scenario,
white gas is your gasoline that you use in your bloody car
the only difference is that color is add to it and the smell
practically same process as your cooking gas which does not have
any odor/smell when it comes out of ground smell is added to it.
I am not sure but Naphtha is illegal to be sold on open market
because it is bad for the personal health

[HeyBub]

Grumpy wrote:
>>
>> White gas is often also known as Naptha, as found in Coleman stoves
>> and lanterns and equiv.
>
> Where in hell did you come up with that scenario,
> white gas is your gasoline that you use in your bloody car
> the only difference is that color is add to it and the smell
> practically same process as your cooking gas which does not have
> any odor/smell when it comes out of ground smell is added to it.
> I am not sure but Naphtha is illegal to be sold on open market
> because it is bad for the personal health
>

You can buy quart and gallon cans of Naptha at Home Depot.

There are, however, two completely different chemicals that go by the name
of "White Gas."

1. Naptha - often used in camp stoves and lanterns.

2. Gasoline without any additives.

There is also a substance know as "White Spirit" (UK) which goes by the
American name of "Mineral Spirits."

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sun, 4 Nov 2012 11:30:22 -0600, "HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com>
wrote:

Or "mineral turps" or "varsol" or even "paint thinner". And in many
parts of the world, vitrually the same as "parafin"

[DoN. Nichols]

On 2012-11-04, Gunner <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Nov 2012 10:44:02 -0500, Richard <cave...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>>On 11/2/2012 11:09 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
>>> On 11/2/2012 12:46 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> Gas 50 years ago went bad too. Perhaps not QUITE as quickly - but I
>>>> remember well draining awfull stinky gas from vehicles and equipment
>>>> that had been sitting back in 1969 as an apprentice mechanic. The
>>>> smell hung around for what seemed like an eternity if you spilled the
>>>> crap anywhere - and even just the vapour made your coveralls stink for
>>>> a week.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That was back when regular gasoline had tetraethyl lead in it. I believe
>>> there was one oil company that sold a more expensive gas
>>> that had no lead.

Amoco sold it. I used it by preference in my MGA.

>>> I seem to recall folks calling it clear gas or
>>> something like that.

"White gas".

as someone below already answered. I wouldn't have bothered to answer
this part since it was already answered -- but the company name of
"Amoco" I had not seen already answered.

>>> I think that was about the time I rebuilt the
>>> engine on my dad's 1949 Ferguson tractor. Darn, I wish I could recall
>>> which oil company that was selling premium unleaded back before lead was
>>> removed from gasoline by law. O_o
>>>
>>> TDD
>>
>>
>>White Gas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_gas

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

[Scott Dorsey]

Richard <cave...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>White gasoline, also called white gas, can also be a name for pure
>gasoline, without additives. This was commonly used when leaded gasoline
>was the norm, to prevent fouling in situations where the properties of
>the tetraethyl lead additive were not required.[2]

Gasoline is a lot of different things mixed together, it's not just one
pure chemical. You have paraffins, which are long chains of carbon atoms
with hydrogen atoms around them. You will have paraffins as light as
5 carbons long (hexane) in there, and some that are very heavy (as much
as a hundred carbons long), but very few above a dozen or so.

You'll also have benzene compounds in there, individual rings of five
carbons, but stuck in chains of rings. You'll also find napthalenes
which are double rings.

All of this stuff just comes out of the well, and goes into a distillation
column, and the column filters out a range of molecules by molecular
weight. It doesn't select by anything other than molecular weight, not
by structure or anything, and in fact it takes a bell curve distribution
centered around one weight but with heavier and lighter stuff on either
side.

So.... gasoline from one well may have a very different composition than
gasoline from another well. So to evaluate all of these different mixtures
folks came up with the "octane rating" to describe how sensitive to
pre-ignition it is. The octane rating compares the fuel with a reference
fuel mixture containing octane and heavier stuff, and says that your test
fuel has as good freedom from pre-ignition as a reference mixture with so
much percent octane. It doesn't actually say that the fuel has that much
octane in it.

If you want to make white gas with a high enough octane rating to run a
fairly modern engine, you need to make it with a whole lot of very light
stuff in it. It used to be fairly common to have aviation gasoline made
with a lot of casing head and very light fractions... it would boil off
at room temperature if you left it unsealed. This is not just difficult
and results in gas that is very unstable and hard to transport, but it
is also phenomenally expensive.

So, we get octane improver compounds like tetraethyl lead, MTBE, or ethanol
which get added to the stuff. Of the three, lead is the most stable
ethanol is the least toxic and hazardous to the environment and users.
You pays your money and you takes your chance.

So... relatively high octane white gas did exist, but it wasn't as high
octane as what we would call high-test today... and it was expensive and
unstable. Lead was really a revolution when it became available and it
radically improved engine performance. But, it also made a mess of a
lot of things...
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Gunner <gunner...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>White gas is often also known as Naptha, as found in Coleman stoves
>and lanterns and equiv.

In the US, naptha is a slightly heavier fraction, known as VM&P or as
"heavy gas." It comes off the distillation column one pipe higher than
gasoline.

>There can be some serious confusion in some places.

Lots of winos out there confuse VM&P and VSOP.

[DoN. Nichols]

On 2012-11-05, Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote:

[ ... ]

> You'll also have benzene compounds in there, individual rings of five
> carbons, but stuck in chains of rings.

Most of what you say I agree with -- but isn't benzine a ring
with *six* carbon atoms? In pure benzene, alternating two bonds to one
side and one to the other, and the spare link to a hydrogen. The number
of bonds does not come out right for this structure with five carbons.

[Scott Dorsey]

DoN. Nichols <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote:
>On 2012-11-05, Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
>> You'll also have benzene compounds in there, individual rings of five
>> carbons, but stuck in chains of rings.
>
> Most of what you say I agree with -- but isn't benzine a ring
>with *six* carbon atoms? In pure benzene, alternating two bonds to one
>side and one to the other, and the spare link to a hydrogen. The number
>of bonds does not come out right for this structure with five carbons.

It is, in fact. I should not post when sleep-deprived and annoyed.

[J. Clarke]

In article <k73gda$a8c$1...@dont-email.me>, the-daring-dufas@stinky-
finger.net says...

Amoco was the big name in unleaded. "White gas" used to mean naphtha,
don't know if that's still the case or not.

[David Combs]

In article <k71m9d$hm6$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,

Larry W <lwas...@sdf.lNoOnSePsAtMar.org> wrote:
>Storing gas without stabilizer in a fuel can or other approved container
>is not the same as leaving the fuel tank of your mower or other gasoline
>powered equipment. (2 stroke engines are especially sensitive) When gas is
>not drained from carbs and fuel system gums and deposits can block small
>orifices and fuel passages and prevent the engine from starting or running
>properly. If the engine fuel system & carb is drained, and then filled using
>a can of year old gasoline, it will probably run OK, (may be slight
>performance loss with older fuel) OTOH if the same gas is left in the
>equipment's fuel tank and fuel system for a year, there very well may be
>starting or running problems.

So, start up the lawn-mower for a minute or so mid winter?

David

[David Combs]

In the northeast (new york state), when I buy "regular",
is there ethanol in it?

If so, how to buy gas *without* ethanol?

David

[David Combs]

Typically in this newsgroup, when people respond to
someone's post (that itself is a response to yet
another response ...), all that prior stuff builds
up to maybe 20 times what you want to respond with.

If you like saving-to-disk some of these things,
sure wastes a lot of disk space.

Just a thought.

David

[David Combs]

In article <MIWdnZYgcv9epgjN...@earthlink.com>,

Wasn't white gas what we used with coleman lanterns?

[David Combs]

So, how to get the old stuff out of a lawn-mower's carb,
etc, at the end of the summer?

(Without taking it apart, that is.)

David

[Maria Elena Carmelita Romero Guttierez]

http://pure-gas.org

[Dan Espen]

dkc...@panix.com (David Combs) writes:

> Typically in this newsgroup, when people respond to
> someone's post (that itself is a response to yet
> another response ...), all that prior stuff builds
> up to maybe 20 times what you want to respond with.

True.

The rules say, trim the stuff that's not relevant,
but don't remove so much that you can't follow the thread.

--
Dan Espen

[Vic Smith]

That's called "snipping your replies."
Most people do it for long posts, leaving only what they are
responding to.
Assholes don't bother.
Other assholes complain "Why'd you snip my post?"

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Run it till it is out of gas.

[Gunner]

ayup. Naptha


Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

[Michael A. Terrell]

Never: Why did you snip my content, since they don't post any.

[Scott Dorsey]

I don't bother, I just pour a tot of fuel stabilizer in the tank and go
out and mow the lawn for one last time, so the stabilized fuel is throughout.

[thekma...@gmail.com]

Gunner: "- show quoted text -
ayup.   Naptha

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as
possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie"

Isn't that the Roger Aile

[thekma...@gmail.com]

Roger Ailes playbook??