Fire and Drive
phaeton
to be 2F.
Just like most mornings, I see people outside that get in their car,
crank it over, and take off driving within 5 seconds of the engine
starting.
You sure couldn't do that in the old days with carburetors and points
ignition, I bet. Probably shouldn't do it now, either.
-J
hls
"phaeton" <blahb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d53d36ee-bed9-47fb...@j24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
As you say, in the old days the carburetors - especially the automatic
chokes -
required that you warm up the engine more than you have to do today.
I believe that with modern cars when you start the car and have oil
pressure,
you are good to go.
jim
phaeton wrote:
>
> This morning it is -12F, and our projected high for the day is going
> to be 2F.
>
> Just like most mornings, I see people outside that get in their car,
> crank it over, and take off driving within 5 seconds of the engine
> starting.
>
> You sure couldn't do that in the old days with carburetors and points
> ignition, I bet.
Many of those cars back then would stumble or stall at very cold temperature
unless warmed up a little, but if the engine ran well driving off gently
probably would not be any worse than letting it sit and idle. But there are
other things that are different today than back when cars had points. Lowering
the sulfur content of fuel has eliminated much of the corrosion wear to rings
that was mostly present when sulfur combined with water vapor during engine warm
up. Removing lead from gasoline has also been shown to increase life of engines.
The wear cause by lead in gasoline I believe was also mostly blamed on corrosion
also.
Probably shouldn't do it now, either.
According to tests done by the SAE that is exactly what you should do to
minimize engine wear. What they found is that the amount of wear is related to
oil temperature. They found that if you let the engine sit and idle for 10
minutes to get it up to operating temp that would cause close to 5 times as much
wear as it would if you drove the car and it took only 2 minutes to warm up. In
other words, the amount of time to reach operating temp is mostly what
determines the amount of wear. Of course since this is related to friction from
cold oil using an oil that reduces friction at low temps will also reduce wear
from cold starts.
However I think these tests were done at around 10F. I don't think there is
anything definitive for extremely cold temps. If temperature is around -25F then
you probably should give it about 30 seconds to warm up.
-jim
Scott Dorsey
>Many of those cars back then would stumble or stall at very cold temperature
>unless warmed up a little, but if the engine ran well driving off gently
>probably would not be any worse than letting it sit and idle. But there are
>other things that are different today than back when cars had points. Lowering
>the sulfur content of fuel has eliminated much of the corrosion wear to rings
>that was mostly present when sulfur combined with water vapor during engine warm
>up. Removing lead from gasoline has also been shown to increase life of engines.
>The wear cause by lead in gasoline I believe was also mostly blamed on corrosion
>also.
Dunno what the story is, but my (manual choke) carburated car starts up
nicely on the first try in cold weather. It probably didn't do so thirty
years ago, which implies something in the meantime has changed and it's
probably got more to do with the fuel than the car.
Mind you, around here 20F is considered really cold, and I have no intention
of driving to a place where it is -25F.
> However I think these tests were done at around 10F. I don't think there is
>anything definitive for extremely cold temps. If temperature is around -25F then
>you probably should give it about 30 seconds to warm up.
Human beings should not live in places where temperature drop below about
sixty degrees F. You have to wear clothes and stuff. Cold weather is much
more detrimental to the driver than to the car.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Don Stauffer
would come up with a new service grade about every year.
jim wrote:
But there are
> other things that are different today than back when cars had points. Lowering
> the sulfur content of fuel has eliminated much of the corrosion wear to rings
> that was mostly present when sulfur combined with water vapor during engine warm
> up. Removing lead from gasoline has also been shown to increase life of engines.
> The wear cause by lead in gasoline I believe was also mostly blamed on corrosion
> also.
> snip
> -jim
jim
Don Stauffer wrote:
>
> Oils are better today too. I can remember a few years ago when they
> would come up with a new service grade about every year.
How many of those changes to service classifications had any effect on how oil
behaved at low temperatures?
phaeton
Well, one thing I notice is that even if the engine is warmed up,
other things aren't. The power steering system will almost kill the
engine if I turn the wheel too hard. Also I have to double clutch
every shift for a mile or so because I'm guessing the oil in the
transmission is thick enough to almost stop the countershaft as soon
as power is removed from it. Granted, many manuals these days are
filled with ATF (like mine) which IIRC is approximately 20W. My dad
used to tell me stories of when he was in High School in the 1960s in
Pennsylvania. During the winters he would have to park his 1957
Plymouth (or maybe it was the 53 Crown Vic) in second gear because it
never warmed up enough to be able to shift on the way to school.
(Uphill, both ways, etc). I'm guessing those old manuals had 90W in
them.
Also there's the joy of breaking the tires loose from the ice, and on
some days (like today) all 4 tires have 'flat spots' on them that take
a long time to knead out. Some vehicles with small engines but full-
sized radiator profiles will actually stay below operating temp while
driving. This time of year you see a lot of small trucks (like mine)
and vans with the cardboard bungeed to the grille. Nothing like
driving for 10 miles, getting off the highway and having your engine
return to fast idle when you hit the stoplight.
I agree that living in places like this is completely asinine. I
don't know how (or why) people bothered with this before the
industrial revolution, and things like fiberglass insulation and gas
boilers became available.
hls
"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message news:hhqi45
> Dunno what the story is, but my (manual choke) carburated car starts up
> nicely on the first try in cold weather. It probably didn't do so thirty
> years ago, which implies something in the meantime has changed and it's
> probably got more to do with the fuel than the car.
A lot of people replaced the automatic chokes with manuals, some years ago,
because they could get them to start better that way. Automatic chokes got
better with time but, thank God, with modern FI systems we dont have to
worry about it.
I dont know if gasoline is any better now. Motor oils certainly are.
Tegger
news:d6KdnaDSaanJc93W...@giganews.com:
Today's gasolines are certainly a lot more volatile than they used to be.
That volatility would help with cold-starting.
--
Tegger
hls
"Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
news:Xns9CF595D4...@208.90.168.18...
I cant even comment on it. Essentially all the gasolines of that day used
tetraethyl lead or tetramethyl lead as octane improvers. Now none of
the US gasolines have them. That might be a clue as to how and why
gasoline formulations may have changed.
Tegger
news:gtidnZLlm81GYt3W...@giganews.com:
>
> "Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
> news:Xns9CF595D4...@208.90.168.18...
>>
>>
>>
>> Today's gasolines are certainly a lot more volatile than they used to
>> be. That volatility would help with cold-starting.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Tegger
>
> I cant even comment on it. Essentially all the gasolines of that day
> used tetraethyl lead or tetramethyl lead as octane improvers. Now
> none of the US gasolines have them. That might be a clue as to how
> and why gasoline formulations may have changed.
>
>
The only reason I "know" this is because I see it mentioned all the time in
the classic car magazines. It seems modern fuels have a tendency to cause
vapor lock in classics, which were designed for use with much less volatile
fuels.
--
Tegger
hls
"Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
>
> in
> the classic car magazines. It seems modern fuels have a tendency to cause
> vapor lock in classics, which were designed for use with much less
> volatile
> fuels.
>
> --
> Tegger
The "classics" had much lower pressure in the fuel lines than do the
fuel injected cars of today. High line pressure counteracts vapor lock
(within expected temperature ranges).
We might be able to find some vapor pressure curves of old fuels versus
the new formulations, and that should tell a lot.
Vic Smith
<blahb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Well, one thing I notice is that even if the engine is warmed up,
>other things aren't. The power steering system will almost kill the
>engine if I turn the wheel too hard. Also I have to double clutch
>every shift for a mile or so because I'm guessing the oil in the
>transmission is thick enough to almost stop the countershaft as soon
>as power is removed from it. Granted, many manuals these days are
>filled with ATF (like mine) which IIRC is approximately 20W. My dad
>used to tell me stories of when he was in High School in the 1960s in
>Pennsylvania. During the winters he would have to park his 1957
>Plymouth (or maybe it was the 53 Crown Vic) in second gear because it
>never warmed up enough to be able to shift on the way to school.
>(Uphill, both ways, etc). I'm guessing those old manuals had 90W in
>them.
>
>Also there's the joy of breaking the tires loose from the ice, and on
>some days (like today) all 4 tires have 'flat spots' on them that take
>a long time to knead out. Some vehicles with small engines but full-
>sized radiator profiles will actually stay below operating temp while
>driving. This time of year you see a lot of small trucks (like mine)
>and vans with the cardboard bungeed to the grille. Nothing like
>driving for 10 miles, getting off the highway and having your engine
>return to fast idle when you hit the stoplight.
>
IME, different cars handle cold differently. But I've experienced
variations of what you said with almost every car I've had.
Only one that I started and took off right away without warming a bit
was the '88 Celebrity 2.8. Nothing phased it.
Never had to put cardboard on, though both 4-bangers I've had,
a 2.0 Cav and a 2.2 Corsica, took much longer to put heat in the
passenger area than a 6 or 8. But the t-stat should keep you from
using cardboard. First thing I think when I see that is poor cooling
design or no t-stat.
Some backyard mechanics used to throw the t-stat away to keep from
overheating in the summer.
Until it warmed up, the '64 Bug would want to creep forward in neutral
unless you disengaged the clutch. 90W.
But that one never warmed up the inside when it was bitter out. Had
to keep an ice scraper inside to scrape the *inside* of the windshield
as I drove.
Bitter is south of -0 F to me.
Worse thing is when I've heard the rings scraping the cylinder walls
on my 350 with a dead cold start-up at -27 F. Very bad sound.
Ran straight 30 weight oil then.
Heard a lesser noise once with my Celebrity 2.8 running 10-40 oil at
-25 F. Let it run a minute before taking off that time.
Always good to park with nose away from the wind if you can.
Can make a huge difference in how fast the engine cools.
When bitterly cold, I usually take off slowly right away if traffic
allows, and find everything loosens up pretty quick.
BTW, I never had a problem doing that with carbs either, but my choke,
auto or manual, was always set right.
This real cold stuff doesn't happen here (Chicago area) as it does up
north, but if you're here long enough, you'll run into what I've
mentioned.
>I agree that living in places like this is completely asinine. I
>don't know how (or why) people bothered with this before the
>industrial revolution, and things like fiberglass insulation and gas
>boilers became available.
Jobs, probably. And oddly enough, some people like snow.
Since I was born here, it never bothered me when I was younger.
Just something you deal with.
Now that I'm getting old, so is the cold.
--Vic
cuh...@webtv.net
with manual choke.No matter how cold the weather got that car always
started right up first time every time.Someday, I am going to rig up a
manual choke on my 1983 Dodge van.I hate automatic chokes, worst
invention ever, in my opinion.
cuhulin
Vic Smith
Never had a problem with my auto chokes - all GM cars. But I checked
them every year as it got cold. The bi-metallic element changes
tension over time, so you have to adjust them occasionally.
Only time they're a bit of a hassle is clearing a flooded engine.
Have to prop them open. I always used a crumpled cig pack for that.
--Vic
Heron McKeister
news:qjr2k5l75emrv2fr3...@4ax.com...
If the choke unloader is correctly adjusted, fully depressing
the accelerator should clear flooding, enabling a start. Once
started (with the accelerator returned to a [fast, with a cold
choke] idle position), a correctly operating and adjusted
vacuum break would allow the engine to continue running.
Vic Smith
wrote:
As I recall all my chokes had a positive attachment to the element
via the choke shaft, and if the element was cold it would close the
choke.
Don't know about unloaders or vacuum breaks. Just had a heat tube
from the exhaust manifold to the choke element body to warm the
element. Only other piece was a link to the fast idle cam.
Very simple.
Each year when it got to freezing temps I would pull the air cleaner,
press the gas to the floor so the choke would close (unload?) then
watch it fully open as the engine warmed.
I did check an occasional check in really cold temps that it was fully
opening as it should, and it always did.
And I did notice that after a couple years it wasn't fully closing at
my check-up, and I had to loosen the cover to jack it down a bit.
Always checked that the fast idle was engaging and that was that.
I can't even remember lubing the linkages, but I might have.
Distinctly remember that it had to propped open when cold though.
Only dealt with clearing a flooded engine a couple times though, so I
may have missed something.
But I don't miss carbs.
--Vic
dsi1
The vacuum break opens the choke up just a bit when the engine is
started. Some choke housing will have an electric coil or will run
coolant through the choke housing to speed up the choke opening. My
guess is that this was done mostly on foreign cars. I think the
automatic chokes worked pretty spiffy but you had to adjust it to your
working temperatures and that's why most folks had problems. Since I
live in the tropics, I would set it pretty much open all the way.
Heron McKeister
The choke unloader is a device (usually cams and
a rod) that links the carbs throttle and choke butterfly
shafts to one another. In the final few degrees before
the throttle is wide open, the choke unloader linkage
forces the choke open allowing the engine to purge
itself of excess fuel during cranking. When the engine
starts, the manifold vacuum operated vacuum break
restricts the choke mechanism from fully closing the
choke butterfly.
jim
It is remarkable that it started with single grade 30 wt oil. A lot of
the noise you heard was probably the oil pump. At that temperature the
oil pump can suck the oil in but the oil in the pan won't flow to
replace the oil that has been drawn, so you very quickly end up with the
pump sucking air thru a hole in the oil. The oil surrounding the hole is
too stiff to flow into the hole.
-jim
Vic Smith
wrote:
>
>> Worse thing is when I've heard the rings scraping the cylinder walls
>> on my 350 with a dead cold start-up at -27 F. Very bad sound.
>> Ran straight 30 weight oil then.
>
>It is remarkable that it started with single grade 30 wt oil. A lot of
>the noise you heard was probably the oil pump. At that temperature the
>oil pump can suck the oil in but the oil in the pan won't flow to
>replace the oil that has been drawn, so you very quickly end up with the
>pump sucking air thru a hole in the oil. The oil surrounding the hole is
>too stiff to flow into the hole.
>
Straight 30 weight oil was commonly used here 30 years ago.
Winter and summer. And that was record cold.
I suppose some went to 15 or 20 weight for the winter, or went to
multi-grade earlier than I did. But for years I just bought Quaker
State 30 weight. No real reason other than I had no lube problems I
was aware of, so I stuck with it.
I generally buy 15W40 now, any name brand that's cheapest.
If we suffered those kind of temps often I'd go to Mobil 1.
But we don't.
I highly doubt what I heard had anything to do with the oil pump.
My ears are pretty good for engine sounds. Closest sound to it I've
heard is all the cam bearings wiping in my 352 when I botched the
rebuild.
But no bearings were wiped.
Too loud for any bearing anyway. This was LOUD.
I'll stick with rings on cylinder walls.
Might be wrong though. It only lasted a couple revs.
--Vic
jim
Vic Smith wrote:
>
> On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 06:04:44 -0600, jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >> Worse thing is when I've heard the rings scraping the cylinder walls
> >> on my 350 with a dead cold start-up at -27 F. Very bad sound.
> >> Ran straight 30 weight oil then.
> >
> >It is remarkable that it started with single grade 30 wt oil. A lot of
> >the noise you heard was probably the oil pump. At that temperature the
> >oil pump can suck the oil in but the oil in the pan won't flow to
> >replace the oil that has been drawn, so you very quickly end up with the
> >pump sucking air thru a hole in the oil. The oil surrounding the hole is
> >too stiff to flow into the hole.
> >
> Straight 30 weight oil was commonly used here 30 years ago.
> Winter and summer. And that was record cold.
30 years ago was 1980. Multi-grade oil had been around for more than 30 years at
that point in time.
> I suppose some went to 15 or 20 weight for the winter, or went to
> multi-grade earlier than I did.
People who used straight weight oil mostly changed to 10 weight for winter when
temps well below zero were expected. Typically when using straight weight you
changed oil at least 4 times a year with the seasons. Very few engines are going
to crank fast enough to start at -10F with straight 30 weight.
> But for years I just bought Quaker
> State 30 weight. No real reason other than I had no lube problems I
> was aware of, so I stuck with it.
> I generally buy 15W40 now, any name brand that's cheapest.
> If we suffered those kind of temps often I'd go to Mobil 1.
> But we don't.
> I highly doubt what I heard had anything to do with the oil pump.
It's almost impossible that the oil pump wouldn't be making some noise since it
would be sucking air if the oil had sat long enough to be cooled down to -27F.
You can't pour 30 weight out of a bottle or can at -27F. But strange noises can
come from lots of things at that temp.
Don Stauffer
they sold kits for that back then. By the time I got through with that
they seemed to have perfected automatic chokes.
cuh...@webtv.net
mail catalog.I think J.C.Whitney sells some manual choke kits.Might be a
few other things I want to order too.
cuhulin
AMuzi
866-529-5530
http://www.jcwhitney.com/
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
hls
<cuh...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:4071-4B42...@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net...
You can access everything they have online.. No need to snail it.
phaeton
I see a lot of idling empty SUVs in parking lots this time of year.
Malls, grocery stores, department stores, movie theaters, etc.
I presume that they do this so that 1) they can avoid the engine wear
on startup and 2) they don't have to wait for it to warm up for the
heater to work?
-J
cuh...@webtv.net
just begging for their vehicles to be stolen.
On the web, How to thwart car thieves
cuhulin
hls
"phaeton" <blahb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13c54004-d739-4beb...@u41g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
Probably to keep it warm. Bad idea.
The engine corrosion ("wear" ) business is technically correct, but its
impact is overstated.
Vic Smith
I'm the only one in this house who doesn't warm the car.
I've given up telling wife and kids to not do that.
More about wasting gas than anything.
Not worth arguing about. They like a warm car from the getgo.
Kenny Rogers - know when to fold.
--Vic
.