Prost is a (Was: Son of a Bitch)
Dan Jones
>I think you have the wrong son of a bitch here. Again, (just like last year)
>it looks like senna makes a move on prost, and way (I mean WAY) before the
>corner, prost tries to shut the door on him. Last year it was the smart
>thing for Alain to do, because if the worst happened, it won him the
>championship.
It looks like a NASCAR fan saw it the way it happened, while many
of the F1 experts are damning Senna.
I really don't think Prost shut the door, he just refused to deviate
from his normal line, as if Senna did not exist. I doubt there was
any way for Senna to get Prost on that corner, but what is wrong for
driving someone hard?
After viewing the incident a few times, Senna's left front was a few
inches ahead of Prost's right rear when contact occurred.
Prost knew Senna was going to do this all day, and if Senna was ahead
the same thing would happen if Prost would challenge Senna. Ron Dennis
was quoted as saying Senna would remember last year, and Nigel Roebuck
wrote in last week's Fifth Column that he thought the same could
happen. What was Prost thinking?
Its unfortunate these kinds of incidents decide the Championship, but
it has been Prost both times who has decided to crash, not Senna.
Senna has mearly challenged him.
Dan Jones
BTW, I have no favorite between Prost and Senna, I respect them both equally
for their driving skills, but think they are pretty weird guys. Any predict-
ions on how long it will take the Prost/Alesi relationship to sour? James
Hunt doesn't think it will be long.
Go Nigel, Martin, and Stefeno in '91.
Ray Chen
>Scott Perman writes:
>
>>I think you have the wrong son of a bitch here. Again, (just like last year)
>>it looks like senna makes a move on prost, and way (I mean WAY) before the
>>corner, prost tries to shut the door on him. Last year it was the smart
>>thing for Alain to do, because if the worst happened, it won him the
>>championship.
>
> It looks like a NASCAR fan saw it the way it happened, while many
> of the F1 experts are damning Senna.
>
> I really don't think Prost shut the door, he just refused to deviate
> from his normal line, as if Senna did not exist. I doubt there was
> any way for Senna to get Prost on that corner, but what is wrong for
> driving someone hard?
"Driving someone hard" != "crashing into them". Prost didn't have to
shut the door. As you noted yourself, he was so far ahead that the
door was already shut. The question was, if Senna pushed on the door
anyway, would Prost open it? The problem is you don't do this in racing.
You don't try and kick down doors that are already shut just like you
don't try and shut doors when someone is halfway through.
There is a limit on how hard you push at doors and there is a limit on how
hard you shut doors. There has to be or every race would turn into a
demolition derby.
Of course, Prost didn't alter his line. One, he probably wasn't expecting
Senna to try something *that* outrageous so maybe he wasn't looking for him.
Two, by altering his line when Senna did not have clear claim to the corner,
he would in essence be letting Senna through -- giving him the corner, and
with it, possibly the win and championship. Only backmarkers are expected
to alter their lines like that. And if he took an early apex to needlessly
defend against an inside move, the door might have opened for Senna to make
a legitimate outside move. Senna was far enough back that he maybe could
have kept up his speed, moved to the outside, and tried to take Prost
cleanly on the outside of the corner.
> After viewing the incident a few times, Senna's left front was a few
> inches ahead of Prost's right rear when contact occurred.
Yeah, but how deep into the corner? I looked at the tape, too. That
contact happened *way* into the corner. Well past turn-in I think,
and close to the normal apex. If Senna had a claim to the corner, he would
have been another half car-length or more forward.
The corner was clearly Prost's.
Senna said it best himself, "[Something like 'I went for the corner',
then...] He did not open the door. So we touched."
If you believe that Senna has a reasonable command of the English language
he's just admitted to the fact that he stuck his car in where it had no
business being.
> Prost knew Senna was going to do this all day, and if Senna was ahead
> the same thing would happen if Prost would challenge Senna. Ron Dennis
> was quoted as saying Senna would remember last year, and Nigel Roebuck
> wrote in last week's Fifth Column that he thought the same could
> happen. What was Prost thinking?
> Its unfortunate these kinds of incidents decide the Championship, but
> it has been Prost both times who has decided to crash, not Senna.
> Senna has mearly challenged him.
Dammitall, "challenge" does not mean, "Even though the corner is yours,
I'm going to give you the choice of letting me through or crashing.
Take your pick."
I'm pretty disgusted at F1, Ron Dennis, and McLaren/Honda for allowing
the situation to develop to this state. Sure, Senna's an asshole on
the track but he only does it because he knows he can get away with
it. F1 should have made it clear to Senna years ago that behavior of
that sort was unacceptable. Ron Dennis wasn't helping the situation any
by encouraging Senna's behavior with comments like he made. And the
McLaren/Honda organizations have demonstrated that they're nothing but
a bunch of greedy, ruthless, money-grubbing assholes who have no concept
of what racing is all about.
Ray Chen
ch...@cc.gatech.edu
Roger Garnett
>
>"Driving someone hard" != "crashing into them". Prost didn't have to
>shut the door. As you noted yourself, he was so far ahead that the
>door was already shut. The question was, if Senna pushed on the door
>anyway, would Prost open it? The problem is you don't do this in racing.
That's the way it looked to me- Prost pulled ahead, Senna even moved directly
*behind* him, THEN moved back to his side and began his bonehead move, just
as Prost was turning in for the corner. Prost should have had every reason
to expect that the corner was his at that point. At that point, Senna finds
himself going off course {surprise!} "Hm, lets see. I can go further off,
and probably be out of another race, or I can take out Prost, and win."
The rest is history. Hey, Prost had everything to loose, he wasn't in
a position to risk his car.
>Of course, Prost didn't alter his line. One, he probably wasn't expecting
>Senna to try something *that* outrageous so maybe he wasn't looking for him.
Right. Especially when Senna had already moved behind him.
>Yeah, but how deep into the corner? I looked at the tape, too. That
>contact happened *way* into the corner. Well past turn-in I think,
>and close to the normal apex. If Senna had a claim to the corner, he would
>have been another half car-length or more forward.
And he wouldn't have had to go so far off course to get there.
>The corner was clearly Prost's.
>Senna said it best himself, "[Something like 'I went for the corner',
>then...] He did not open the door. So we touched."
So, What has Prost had to say about this, any how?
________________________________________________________
Roger Garnett (gar...@BATCOMPUTER.TN.CORNELL.EDU)
The South Lansing Centre For Wayward Sports Cars
"All donations of stray, orphaned, odd, neglected, etc.
sports cars and bits in need of a good home accepted."
"The drop off bin is right there- behind the barn..."
herr...@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com
> Scott Perman writes:
>
>>I think you have the wrong son of a bitch here. Again, (just like last year)
>>it looks like senna makes a move on prost, and way (I mean WAY) before the
>>corner, prost tries to shut the door on him. Last year it was the smart
>>thing for Alain to do, because if the worst happened, it won him the
>>championship.
>
> It looks like a NASCAR fan saw it the way it happened, while many
> of the F1 experts are damning Senna.
>
> I really don't think Prost shut the door, he just refused to deviate
> from his normal line, as if Senna did not exist. I doubt there was
> any way for Senna to get Prost on that corner, but what is wrong for
> driving someone hard?
Alain was lined up in front of Senna some distance before the corner,
then swung left for the corner. I'm only a spectator. What if Alain
had kept that line to the right in front of Senna and taken the corner
ten or twenty miles per hour slower than he would later in the race?
Can he keep Senna behind him and slowing enough for the corner?
We all know Senna did not have to make that corner, as long as Prost
did not either. Could Senna have followed the line and speed he had
chosen and gone through the corner if he were alone there? Could
Prost have used generally accepted driving practices and kept Senna
bottled up behind him for one corner, given that Senna had been lined up
behind Prost before the corner and Senna wanted to be in front or have
both of them parked?
dan herrick
mccu...@alien.enet.dec.com
In article <15...@hydra.gatech.EDU>, ch...@sundial.gatech.edu (Ray Chen) writes...
>> After viewing the incident a few times, Senna's left front was a few
>> inches ahead of Prost's right rear when contact occurred.
>contact happened *way* into the corner. Well past turn-in I think,
>and close to the normal apex. If Senna had a claim to the corner, he would
>have been another half car-length or more forward.
>
Ray Chen said a lot of things that apply, and said them well (maybe even
better than I could :-).
One additional point is the difference in braking and acceleration points for
normal lines and early apexes. On a (relatively) normal line, Prost would be
finished braking fairly early and beginning to accelerate as he turned in. So
he would already be as slow as he would be at any point on the corner. Taking
the early apex line that Senna took, he would still be braking right up to the
apex and would not reach his slowest speed until after the apex when the
tightest radius on his line was acheived. The impact occured after Prost
turned in, but before Senna apexed. Senna's car was visibly still under heavy
braking as Prost turned in. Thus Senna was still braking and Prost was already
accelerating, and yet Senna's left front wheel made contact with the right rear
wheel and wing support of Prost's car - not exactly a good argument for Senna
having any right to even contest the corner.
Sorry, it was a blatant punt, in total disregard of fair competition as well as
the rules governing the sport.
All I can say is, if Brazil loved that, my respect for Brazil just went down.
- Bruce
Forrest Wade
For me, Senna won the race. In the books it will say that Senna won the race.
So lets go on in life. Lets do something new like figure out...what American
driver will get a F1 ride next year.
Forrest
Tom Haapanen
> For me, Senna won the race. In the books it will say that Senna won the race.
And the real Senna fanatics come out of the closet! They'll even take the
win away from Piquet --- anything for their hero! But I doubt the books
will lie...
I'm now doubly saddened by Senna's punting of Nannini earlier this season ---
he may have taken away Sandro's last chance at a Grand Prix victory. Of
course, it's his God-given right to do that, isn't it... :(
[ \tom haapanen --- university of waterloo --- t...@mims-iris.waterloo.edu ]
[ "i don't even know what street canada is on" -- al capone ]
Dan Jones
>how about we start a new newsgroup: rec.autos.i.hate.senna? :-)
How about: rec.autos.lynch.mob? We can have all kinds of discussions
regarding, Senna, Balestre, DeCesaris, Ecclestone, Sam Posey, etc. :-).
Dan Jones
Tim Donahue
>...
>For me, Senna won the race. In the books it will say that Senna won the race.
>
Gee, I thought Piquet won the race! Pehaps Ron Dennis wrote the book
and Honda published it?
>So lets go on in life. Lets do something new like figure out...what American
>driver will get a F1 ride next year.
Easy! Sullivan.
--
duane.galensky
> If Prost has caused the accident, would this conversation be going on?
absolutely.
>
> For me, Senna won the race. In the books it will say that Senna won the race.
for me he one the race too. it's a crying shame to boot.
>
> So lets go on in life. Lets do something new like figure out...what American
> driver will get a F1 ride next year.
how about we start a new newsgroup: rec.autos.i.hate.senna? :-)
i'm with you...i've posted enough drivel...time for action.
i'd really hate to let all this fury get vented ineffectively: it
would seem that at least we could petition balestre, or honda, to
take action against this (and any other, i might add) unsportsmanlike
conduct. we have quite a worldwide voice here that we're not taking
advantage of!
if i can get a copy of the letter my friend is sending to the honda
CEO, i'll post it.
duane
phd_ja...@gsbacd.uchicago.edu
>i'm with you...i've posted enough drivel...time for action.
>i'd really hate to let all this fury get vented ineffectively: it
>would seem that at least we could petition balestre, or honda, to
>take action against this (and any other, i might add) unsportsmanlike
>conduct. we have quite a worldwide voice here that we're not taking
>advantage of!
Right,
first of all let's use our consumer power. All of us who were about to buy
hondas or acuras, let's buy ferraris and alfaromeos !! :-)
Seriously now, this is it. I am NOT buying a honda or acura for the next
100 years.
Eric
Geoff Arnold @ Sun BOS - R.H. coast near the top
#In article <15...@hydra.gatech.EDU> ch...@sundial.gatech.edu (Ray Chen) writes:
#>Senna said it best himself, "[Something like 'I went for the corner',
#>then...] He did not open the door. So we touched."
#
#So, What has Prost had to say about this, any how?
Here's some comments from Balestre, Prost and Senna on the subject.
This is excepted (without permission) from the report in the "Guardian
Weekly (Oct.26) filed by their correspondent Alan Henry:
The immediate reaction was of bitterness and controversy. "It
is a scandal that a world championship should be decided on
such a collision and I leave everyone to be their own judge of
who is to blame," said the International Motor Sport
Federation's president.
Asked whether Senna could be disqualified, Balestre replied:
"I am the Fisa president, not a judge. Last year, race stewards
disqualified Senna because he cut short a chicane. This time I
am told that there were no elements to allow Senna's
disqualification."
[...]
Prost was furious, convinced that Senna has ruthlessly and
deliberately taken him out of the race in order to clinch the
championship.
"If everybody wants to drive in this way then the sport is
finished," declared the Frenchman. "Senna is completely the
opposite in character of what he wants people to believe. He is
the opposite of honest. Motor racing is sport, not war.
"Technically, I believe we [Ferrari] won the world
championship. Losing this way is disgusting. We were not
even side by side."
Senna responded robustly. "I don't give a damn what Alain
Prost says. He took a chance going into the first corner when
he couldn't afford to. He knew that I was going to come down
the inside and he closed the door."
Those last words from Senna seem to me to be a clear admission that he
was going to take the inside of the corner regardless of what Prost
did. Up until now, I might have been persuaded to ascribe Senna's
action to a momentary (though all too typical) lack of control and bad
judgement. After reading this, I feel that Senna should have his
super-license pulled. He's a menace.
Anyone up for a letter-writing campaign to Balestre, Bernie, Honda,
McLaren and Marlboro?
-- Geoff Arnold, PC-NFS architect, Sun Microsystems. (ge...@East.Sun.COM) --
*** "Now is no time to speculate or hypothecate, but rather a time ***
*** for action, or at least not a time to rule it out, though not ***
*** necessarily a time to rule it in, either." - George Bush ***
Dan Jones
>Geoff Arnold (ge...@bodleian.East.Sun.COM) write:
>
>
>>Anyone up for a letter-writing campaign to Balestre, Bernie, Honda,
>>McLaren and Marlboro?
>
>the accusatiuons - not just asiaphobia - then let the bastards have it.
>If Ron Dennis was involved at all in Senna's decision to punt Prost,
>then he should be strung up on a telephone pole outside of Tuscon.
Do it, do it, do it, lets lynch Dennis. What a flamming A-hole.
Dennis the F1 Menace.
>
>Does anybody have the appropriate address for McLaren International (ya
>know, an internet address would be really neat . . . )
How about a telephone: (44) 4862 22721
Even though I still think Prost wasn't smart for holding his line.
Dan Jones
Donald Jackson Pickett
>Anyone up for a letter-writing campaign to Balestre, Bernie, Honda,
>McLaren and Marlboro?
Yes. If a consensus can be reached that finds a legitimate reason for
the accusatiuons - not just asiaphobia - then let the bastards have it.
If Ron Dennis was involved at all in Senna's decision to punt Prost,
then he should be strung up on a telephone pole outside of Tuscon.
Does anybody have the appropriate address for McLaren International (ya
know, an internet address would be really neat . . . )
Don
Tom Haapanen
>> Anyone up for a letter-writing campaign to Balestre, Bernie, Honda,
>> McLaren and Marlboro?
Donald Jackson Pickett <dp...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> Does anybody have the appropriate address for McLaren International (ya
> know, an internet address would be really neat . . . )
McLaren International Ltd.
Woking Business Park
Albert Drive, Woking
Surrey GU21 5JY
United Kingdom
Now, once I get hold of a Honda address in Japan, I expect to write off a
couple of letters...
richard welty
*Even though I still think Prost wasn't smart for holding his line.
i guess. everything i've ever been taught has suggested that
as the driver in front, Prost had the clear right to take any
reasonble line through that corner, including any defensive
`door slamming' line. smart? maybe not. within his rights?
*definitely*.
richard
--
richard welty 518-387-6346, GE R&D, K1-5C39, Niskayuna, New York
we...@lewis.crd.ge.com ...!crdgw1!lewis.crd.ge.com!welty
``We're in a road movie to Berlin, can't drive out the way we drove in''
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