Front Wheel Drive Racing
Lonnie Cole
I posted a question earlier this week about setting up a front wheel
drive VW Rabbit for oval track racing and I think that I must have posed
the wrong question. What I really would like to know is how to find out
how to set up a front wheel drive car for the asphalt oval. Are there
any good references (books, web sites, discussion groups companies etc.)
that might be able to shed some light on proper weight distribution,
geometry .... whatever. I, and my friend, would really appreciate any
pointers anyone could give.
Thanks
Lonnie
--
Lonnie R. Cole Voice: (520) 318-8162
National Optical Astronomy Observatories Fax: (520) 318-8278
P.O. Box 26732 EMail: lc...@noao.edu
Tucson, AZ 85726
Don Stauffer
I certainly do not know of any modern books that deal with front wheel
drive on paved ovals. You might try to find all you can on the Novis
and the Miller FWD Indy experiences.
My suspicion is that geometries will not vary much from RWD. On an
oval, you are not on the gas that hard in the turns. So most force
needed is side force. Pavement geometries are for the most part
designed to maximize cornering force and minimize tire wear, which is
also what you want to do with FWD.
Of course, as you mention, weight distribution is important, so that
might modify geometries a bit. But when looking at hobby stocks, I'll
bet their weight distribution is not all that different than your
rabbit.
As a matter of fact, I would suspect you would be best off emulating
setup on hobby stock, sportsman, etc. Modifieds would have much
different setup.
--
Don Stauffer in Minneapolis
home web site- http://home1.gte.net/stauffer/
home email- stau...@gte.net
work email- stau...@htc.honeywell.com
r morella
there's a magizine called GrassRoots Motorsports...very good magazine
I think they have a website (don't know URL)
Ian Cowley
Lonnie Cole wrote:
>
> I posted a question earlier this week about setting up a front wheel
> drive VW Rabbit for oval track racing and I think that I must have posed
> the wrong question. What I really would like to know is how to find out
> how to set up a front wheel drive car for the asphalt oval. Are there
> any good references (books, web sites, discussion groups companies etc.)
> that might be able to shed some light on proper weight distribution,
> geometry .... whatever. I, and my friend, would really appreciate any
> pointers anyone could give.
>
> Thanks
> Lonnie
>
> --
> Lonnie R. Cole Voice: (520) 318-8162
> National Optical Astronomy Observatories Fax: (520) 318-8278
> P.O. Box 26732 EMail: lc...@noao.edu
> Tucson, AZ 85726
Lonnie,
Only know about circuit racing here in UK but some of the basics will be
valid for the ovals.
basically you want the driven wheels in contact with the track at all
times.
This means that the roll center at the back of the car needs to be
higher than the front. This will be shown by the car picking up the
inside rear wheel under heavy cornering.
Damping and springs should be designed to be a soft was you can get away
with, unless you're running on very smooth surfaces and with slicks.
You short start around 50% heavier springs than standard if you don't
know were to start from.
Oval racers use all sorts of weird suspension setups and different wheel
combinations but most of the books on this are aimed at rear wheel drive
stock cars.
If like me you are trying to use a relatively untried vehicle in your
chosen form of racing you will have to
experiment/test/experiment...etc and remember this costs!
I have one US$7000 vehicle that nobody would buy anyroad with US$35000
worth of investment...ouch!...it just crept up on me......the new
curtains? Ahh., .. a new house....well maybe next year dear! .. but
having spent all this money I need to use it and develop it further
otherwise it would be waste of money now wouldn't it dear!
Any good relationship counsellors out there....its not my fault..she
does understand about the car!
:-)
IanC
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Don Stauffer
Ian Cowley wrote:
>
> Lonnie Cole wrote:
> >
> > I posted a question earlier this week about setting up a front wheel
> > drive VW Rabbit for oval track racing and I think that I must have posed
> > the wrong question. What I really would like to know is how to find out
> > how to set up a front wheel drive car for the asphalt oval. Are there
> > any good references (books, web sites, discussion groups companies etc.)
> > that might be able to shed some light on proper weight distribution,
> > geometry .... whatever. I, and my friend, would really appreciate any
> > pointers anyone could give.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Lonnie
> >
> > --
> > Lonnie R. Cole Voice: (520) 318-8162
> > National Optical Astronomy Observatories Fax: (520) 318-8278
> > P.O. Box 26732 EMail: lc...@noao.edu
> > Tucson, AZ 85726
>
> Lonnie,
>
> Only know about circuit racing here in UK but some of the basics will be
> valid for the ovals.
>
> basically you want the driven wheels in contact with the track at all
> times.
> :-)
> IanC
>
Oh, yeah, the fact that Ian said driven wheel(s), plural, brings up
something I should have said. The differential needs to be locked. I
don't know how front wheel drive differentials are built. On RWD it was
simple- just weld the spider gears from turning.
rat...@hotmail.com
In article <356DA625...@noao.edu>,
lc...@noao.edu wrote:
>
> I posted a question earlier this week about setting up a front wheel
> drive VW Rabbit for oval track racing and I think that I must have posed
> the wrong question. What I really would like to know is how to find out
> how to set up a front wheel drive car for the asphalt oval. Are there
> any good references (books, web sites, discussion groups companies etc.)
> that might be able to shed some light on proper weight distribution,
> geometry .... whatever. I, and my friend, would really appreciate any
> pointers anyone could give.
>
> Thanks
> Lonnie
>
I've seen them race on TV and noticed the inside rear wheel pick up in turns
but it looked as though the fronts stayed on the ground. If Neons can be
raced, seems to me VW's can be too.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
David Hillman
In article <6kkk8l$ng$6...@camel29.mindspring.com>,
r morella <nospam@nospam> wrote:
>there's a magizine called GrassRoots Motorsports...very good magazine
>I think they have a website (don't know URL)
<URL:http://www.grmotorsports.com/>
--
D a v i d H i l l m a n
nma, scca, scscc, aroc
Matthew Knutsen
rat...@hotmail.com wrote:
It seems? Rabbits have been raced here in Scandinavia since the first
GTI...and very successfully too. They were a major factor on the
European Touring car scene as well.
I have raced a fwd car on asphalt for a few years (mini), but I am not
sure on how you would want it set-up for an oval. I like a nervous car,
that turns in really well, but this could be a bit dangerous on ovals, I
reckon.
Adjusting the rollcentre will be the main issue, as well as tampering
with or adding anti-roll bars.
Our Mini is very stiffly sprung, and suffers when cornering in tight
turns, but is very good in the fast ones. It has a heavy front weight
(static) bias. On one of the tracks we race at, there are mostly open,
3rd-4th (80-110 MPH) turns, three of them 180 degs, fairly banked. I
like to jack the car down at the rear for this track, making it more
easy on turn-in, and it seems to help the rear to come round exiting the
long turns.
Of course, I run on street-legal tires, so the car slides quite a lot:((
It would be interesting to try an oval with a FWD car, what kinds of
rules are you running to?
Aren't the "stock cars" in the UK FWD? They have a stock series for
Minis too, I think.
Best,
Matt
--
Matthew Knutsen
Cheek Racing Cars
http://home.sol.no/~kareknut/
OHOE
>Oh, yeah, the fact that Ian said driven wheel(s), plural, brings up
>something I should have said. The differential needs to be locked. I
>don't know how front wheel drive differentials are built. On RWD it was
>simple- just weld the spider gears from turning.
>
>
I would be very careful about welding the diff in a fwd car, especially if it's
going to be in high speed events where tire wear might be an issue. Do it right
and shell out for a quaife imo.
Oliver
OHOE
>I believe the Dodge Neons are front-wheel-drive, and they are used for
>racers.
>I've seen them race on TV and noticed the inside rear wheel pick up in turns
>but it looked as though the fronts stayed on the ground. If Neons can be
>raced, seems to me VW's can be too.
Yeah , just maybe, there are thousands of vw's being raced all over the world.
Not a lot of oval trackers though. I seem to remember the personals section in
european car had an oval track rabbit featured in one issue, called the magic
rat or something like that, so it can be done. Incidentally it had a quaife lsd
as per my last post:)
hth,
Oliver
The Ennui Society
Hello,
I recalled one book focussing on configurating and racing the front-wheel
drive vehicles either on tamarac or snow. Very informative book. This book
might have been out of print since 1980s so try secondhand book stores
I have driven the front-wheel drive cars (VW, Saab, and Chevrolet) for ten
years along with rear-wheel drive cars (Alfa-Romeo, BMW, and Mercedes). The
difference is very huge between them. What I despise about front-drive is the
torque steering and the strong understeering. Torque steering can be rather
pain in certain condition because I have hard time keeping the car in
direction I want to go especially with Saab 9000 Turbo. With rear-drive car, I
can compensate the acceleration by steering into the direction. Once you
experience the understeering, you have little margin to correct other than to
push the throttle down. What if you are at the end of steering rack? Pity.
The Miller FWD racing cars were one of the perfect front-drive cars because of
exceptional design and understanding of unique FWD behaviours. Citroën SM with
Maserati V6 did well but suffer a lot from excessive tyre wears. Mini Cooper
got lucky with excellent design. Notice the proximity of their motors: Miller
and Citroën have them behind the front axle whilst Mini has everything stacked
up (motor sharing the oil with gear box!) very close to front axle. The rest
with motors hanging out in front of axle suffer from medicore handling. The
other factor is the location of differential gear axle and design as well as
angle of half shafts. If the half shafts are at perfect horizontal plane, no
problem. Yet, the cars often "lurch" up when accelerating.
One thing I have not seen is the cars with transverse-mounted motors behind
the transaxle instead of front. I am so tired of those intruding wheel wells
into the foot space and the massive "overbite". Anyone know?
Regards,
Oliver
Don Stauffer wrote:
> Lonnie Cole wrote:
> >
> > I posted a question earlier this week about setting up a front wheel
> > drive VW Rabbit for oval track racing and I think that I must have posed
> > the wrong question. What I really would like to know is how to find out
> > how to set up a front wheel drive car for the asphalt oval. Are there
> > any good references (books, web sites, discussion groups companies etc.)
> > that might be able to shed some light on proper weight distribution,
> > geometry .... whatever. I, and my friend, would really appreciate any
> > pointers anyone could give.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Lonnie
> >
> > --
> > Lonnie R. Cole Voice: (520) 318-8162
> > National Optical Astronomy Observatories Fax: (520) 318-8278
> > P.O. Box 26732 EMail: lc...@noao.edu
> > Tucson, AZ 85726
>
> I certainly do not know of any modern books that deal with front wheel
> drive on paved ovals. You might try to find all you can on the Novis
> and the Miller FWD Indy experiences.
>
> My suspicion is that geometries will not vary much from RWD. On an
> oval, you are not on the gas that hard in the turns. So most force
> needed is side force. Pavement geometries are for the most part
> designed to maximize cornering force and minimize tire wear, which is
> also what you want to do with FWD.
>
> Of course, as you mention, weight distribution is important, so that
> might modify geometries a bit. But when looking at hobby stocks, I'll
> bet their weight distribution is not all that different than your
> rabbit.
>
> As a matter of fact, I would suspect you would be best off emulating
> setup on hobby stock, sportsman, etc. Modifieds would have much
> different setup.
>
Todd Glocke
On Thu, 28 May 1998 11:00:06 -0700, Lonnie Cole <lc...@noao.edu>
wrote:
>I posted a question earlier this week about setting up a front wheel
>drive VW Rabbit for oval track racing and I think that I must have posed
>the wrong question. What I really would like to know is how to find out
>how to set up a front wheel drive car for the asphalt oval. Are there
>any good references (books, web sites, discussion groups companies etc.)
>that might be able to shed some light on proper weight distribution,
>geometry .... whatever. I, and my friend, would really appreciate any
>pointers anyone could give.
>
>Thanks
>Lonnie
>
>--
>Lonnie R. Cole Voice: (520) 318-8162
>National Optical Astronomy Observatories Fax: (520) 318-8278
>P.O. Box 26732 EMail: lc...@noao.edu
>Tucson, AZ 85726
>
>
Lonnie,
Well, I'm not too familiar with front wheel drive racing, however, I
think I can give you a few ideas to get you started...................
1. Obviously, this car is going to PUSH alot more than a RWD car would
while cornering. Some heavier duty sway bars front and rear would help
alot.
2. A cool trick to try (Although works much better on dirt) is to
restrict the RF brake hose somehow (Cut the head off a small nail and
put the nail inside your RF steel brake line where the hose threads
on). This might not work as well on pavement as the braking required
is going to be much greater, but it might be worth a try...........
3. If you can adjust camber and caster on this VW, you want less
caster on the LF (Will cause car to pull left) and depending on the
banking in the turns, about 0 camber on the LF and about -1.5 degrees
camber on RF.
4. You will want more air pressure in your rear tires than fronts.
If this class has a minimum weight rule, and you need to add weight to
your car to pass tech, put it all in the left rear.
Some of this stuff might not work, like I said, I'm not up on FWD
racing stuff, but if you have practice time you can use, try some of
these things...........You might hit on one of them. Good Luck.
Todd
Dan Timberlake
On Sun, 31 May 1998 14:34:14 -0600, The Ennui Society <o...@pcisys.net>
wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I recalled one book focussing on configurating and racing the front-wheel
>drive vehicles either on tamarac or snow. Very informative book. This book
>might have been out of print since 1980s so try secondhand book stores
>
>I have driven the front-wheel drive cars (VW, Saab, and Chevrolet) for ten
>years along with rear-wheel drive cars (Alfa-Romeo, BMW, and Mercedes). The
>difference is very huge between them.
I think I detect a certain grouping by manufacturer's sportiness
reputation as well?
Was the VW a diesel rabbit with 4.5 inch wide rims, or a 1984 GTI with
Pirelli P-6's at 85 mph in a sweeping exit ramp, distinctly
oversteering as the result of slightly tossing the rear with sharp
initial steering input.
>What I despise about front-drive is the
>torque steering and the strong understeering. Torque steering can be rather
>pain in certain condition because I have hard time keeping the car in
>direction I want to go especially with Saab 9000 Turbo. With rear-drive car, I
>can compensate the acceleration by steering into the direction. Once you
>experience the understeering, you have little margin to correct other than to
>push the throttle down.
More lock and more throttle may be making it worse rather than better.
Jackie Stewart suggests you unwind the steering a little bit when
understeer has upset the balance of the car. Cranking on more lock
just drives the tires into more severe understeer and heats them up.
The best rear wheel drive stock car racers keep their front tires
cooler than the not so good ones. No extra steering lock is the
trick. Stirling Moss MADE the notoriously over-steering rear wheel
drive, rear engine, swing axle Auto-Unions understeer by cranking on
lots of steering lock, and would then snap them into oversteer by
returned the steering toward center. You might try easing off the
throttle, which puts a little extra vertical force onto the front
wheels, and reduce the vertical force on the rear wheels. The result
is to add a little trailing throttle oversteer, or at least reduce the
understeer. Some work with tire pressures might be very rewarding
too.
>What if you are at the end of steering rack?
You should have turned into the parking spot a little sooner.
I don't think tight circuit autocrossers use full lock.
Dornbos
At one time, Steve Smith Autosports had a book titled something like "The Front
Wheel Drive Advantage". Scan the web for Steve Smith Autosports and maybe
you'll have some luck.
Doug
Steven Fisher
>I believe the Dodge Neons are front-wheel-drive, and they are used for
racers.
>I've seen them race on TV and noticed the inside rear wheel pick up in
turns
>but it looked as though the fronts stayed on the ground. If Neons can be
>raced, seems to me VW's can be too.
You could race a Pinto if you really wanted to.
Steven Fisher
SRingenber
>how to set up a front wheel drive car for the asphalt oval. Are there
>any good references (books, web sites,
Here's some road race info from grassroots mag;
book:VW sport tuning for street and competition
by Robert Bentley, Inc. 800-423-4595
or sa...@rb.com
www.rb.com
companies online:
www.bsiracing.com
www.lockracewrks.com/index.htm
scott
MMauney Jr
>You could race a Pinto if you really wanted to.
>
>
>
Yeah, but the Neons win pretty regularly...
Marshall Mauney
Engineering Supervisor - Square D Company
mau...@PowerLogic.com
Fluid
Someone wrote:
> >If Neons can be
> >raced, seems to me VW's can be too.
>
Actually, Pintos WERE actively raced when they were in production. Many
won in Showroom Stock SCCA classes. Several mod Pintos were
successfully raced in Solo 1 events in the 1970s and 1980s.
Jay T
John Rutter
In article <199806021126...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, Dornbos
<dor...@aol.com> writes
>At one time, Steve Smith Autosports had a book titled something like "The Front
>Wheel Drive Advantage".
That's the one.
The Front Wheel Driving High-Performance Advantage, by Jack Doo.
Published by Motorbooks International
ISBN 0-87938-298-8
The contents of this book lists the following chapters:
The front-wheel-drive advantage
Front-wheel-drive debate
Road racing
Autocrossing
Rallying
Ice racing
Drag racing
Research and development
I bought the book even though I do not drive an fwd car, but merely so
that I could read about the different approach that is used in these
cars. I don't necessarily agree with the claims - in fact I do not think
fwd is an advantage in motorsport - but the book makes interesting
reading all the same.
If driving on the loose, you really should learn how to left-foot brake.
Not always ideal when racing, but extremely useful for rallying and an
extra trick you chould have experience of... (IMHO)
Regards,
--
John Rutter, Multiplan Consultants Ltd a.k.a. "Rut The Nut"
Owner/builder/driver of Hawk HF3000 Stratos Replica kit car
Racing in the series described at http://www.olb.co.uk/auto_italia/
E-mail to J...@mconsult.demon.co.uk
Pete Fenelon
Have a look at the British Touring Car Championship -- the vast majority of
the cars in that are FWD.
pete
--
Pete Fenelon, 3 Beckside Gardens, York, YO10 3TX, UK (pete.f...@zetnet.co.uk)
``there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas''
bear
All cars mentioned are actively involved in racing, except pintos were rwd
not fwd.
Trapper
On 10 Jun 1998 18:10:40 GMT, Pete Fenelon <pe...@fenelon.zetnet.co.uk>
wrote:
>
>Have a look at the British Touring Car Championship -- the vast majority of
>the cars in that are FWD.
>Pete Fenelon, 3 Beckside Gardens, York, YO10 3TX, UK (pete.f...@zetnet.co.uk)
>``there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas''
The Brits will race anything. Actually saw a Citreon 2CV race when I
was last over there. Great stuff. BTCC racing is great stuff.
Trapper
Pete Fenelon
In rec.autos.sport.tech Trapper <rath...@netcom.can> wrote:
> The Brits will race anything. Actually saw a Citreon 2CV race when I
> was last over there. Great stuff. BTCC racing is great stuff.
There's a 24-hour 2CV race over at Mondello Park in Ireland -- looks to be
a laugh.
pete
Ken Kelly
Paul newman, Janet Guthry, Group 44, and a couple of Datsun dealers. It was a
very highly competitive class.
Ken
Pete Fenelon wrote:
>
> In rec.autos.sport.tech Fluid <fl...@alaska.net> wrote:
> > Someone wrote:
> >> >If Neons can be
> >> >raced, seems to me VW's can be too.
> >>
> >> You could race a Pinto if you really wanted to.
>
> > Actually, Pintos WERE actively raced when they were in production. Many
> > won in Showroom Stock SCCA classes. Several mod Pintos were
> > successfully raced in Solo 1 events in the 1970s and 1980s.
>
> Have a look at the British Touring Car Championship -- the vast majority of
> the cars in that are FWD.
>
Don Stauffer
>
> We raced a pinto in B sedan in the early seventies. Our races often included
> Paul newman, Janet Guthry, Group 44, and a couple of Datsun dealers. It was a
> very highly competitive class.
>
> Ken
>
> Pete Fenelon wrote:
> >
> > >> You could race a Pinto if you really wanted to.
> >
> > > Actually, Pintos WERE actively raced when they were in production. Many
> > > won in Showroom Stock SCCA classes. Several mod Pintos were
> > > successfully raced in Solo 1 events in the 1970s and 1980s.
--
I thought the Pinto was a rear drive.
Chris, Danni, and Michael
> > > > Actually, Pintos WERE actively raced when they were in production. Many
> > > > won in Showroom Stock SCCA classes. Several mod Pintos were
> > > > successfully raced in Solo 1 events in the 1970s and 1980s.
brian o'blivion
>
> Ken Kelly wrote:
> >
> > We raced a pinto in B sedan in the early seventies. Our races often included
> > Paul newman, Janet Guthry, Group 44, and a couple of Datsun dealers. It was a
> > very highly competitive class.
> >
> > Ken
> >
> > Pete Fenelon wrote:
> > >
>
> > > >> You could race a Pinto if you really wanted to.
> > >
> > > > won in Showroom Stock SCCA classes. Several mod Pintos were
> > > > successfully raced in Solo 1 events in the 1970s and 1980s.
>
>
> I thought the Pinto was a rear drive.
> Don Stauffer in Minneapolis
> home web site- http://home1.gte.net/stauffer/
> home email- stau...@gte.net
> work email- stau...@htc.honeywell.com