Deborah Renshaw is not given 'any' blame in Eric Martin tragedy
Alan Jones
http://jayski.com
ARCA Accident Investigation News: An investigation of last
Wednesday's fatal accident at Lowe's Motor Speedway
concluded there was a delay in transmitting information about
Eric Martin's crashed car to Deborah Renshaw, who slammed
into Martin's stalled vehicle seconds later and killed him, ARCA
President Ron Drager said yesterday. ''We feel that a spotter
in the spotter's stand could have prevented what happened,''
Drager said.
___
if i dont answer, youre filtered.
man, them flames on that 24 car is ... done blowed up!!
http://racing.fantasysports.yahoo.com/auto/show?page=team&tid=129694
cfswestern
"Alan Jones" <twent...@jalanjones.com> wrote in message
news:ipkuqussttct6qh1k...@4ax.com...
>
> http://jayski.com
>
> ARCA Accident Investigation News: An investigation of last
> Wednesday's fatal accident at Lowe's Motor Speedway
> concluded there was a delay in transmitting information about
> Eric Martin's crashed car to Deborah Renshaw, who slammed
> into Martin's stalled vehicle seconds later and killed him, ARCA
> President Ron Drager said yesterday. ''We feel that a spotter
> in the spotter's stand could have prevented what happened,''
> Drager said.
> ___
>
spotters ? Richard Petty and Waltrip ? How is a spotter gonna watch their
car and the car that is making the best lap times and all the other cars at
the same time ? Super Spotter ? What does "caution" supposed to mean if it
does not mean step on the brake ? Does it mean drive faster to the
start/finish line ?
Alan Jones
heres the article by The Tennessean, which explains ARCA's
decision...
http://www.tennessean.com/sports/motorsports/archives/02/10/23884156.shtml?Element_ID=23884156
On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 00:27:22 GMT, "cfswestern" <cfswe...@lvcm.com>
wrote:
Bob the Builder
be the first person to blame in the blame game. Personally, I think we
should learn what we can from this tragedy and move on.
"Alan Jones" <twent...@jalanjones.com> wrote in message
news:ipkuqussttct6qh1k...@4ax.com...
>
Alan Jones
yes, 'very' tragic. it makes me think of a song called 'cant tell
me nothin'. at least both nascar and arca now require the spotter
to be in the spotter stands. a hard lesson has been learned, it's
time to move on.
Brian P. Sweeney
<twent...@jalanjones.com> wrote:
> http://jayski.com
>
> ARCA Accident Investigation News: An investigation of last
> Wednesday's fatal accident at Lowe's Motor Speedway
> concluded there was a delay in transmitting information about
> Eric Martin's crashed car to Deborah Renshaw, who slammed
> into Martin's stalled vehicle seconds later and killed him, ARCA
> President Ron Drager said yesterday. ''We feel that a spotter
> in the spotter's stand could have prevented what happened,''
> Drager said.
So could anyone else being in her car.
Brian P. Sweeney
<b...@fakeco.com.az> wrote:
> If you first to get technical, Eric Martin started the situation. He would
> be the first person to blame in the blame game. Personally, I think we
> should learn what we can from this tragedy and move on.
Move on to manslaughter charges? Move on to a permanent ban from racing?
Move on to a negligence lawsuit?
Move on, indeed. Let her off the hook? Hardly.
Brian P. Sweeney
<cfswe...@lvcm.com> wrote:
> That is total 100% unadulterated bullshit. Who the fuck you gonna get to be
> spotters ? Richard Petty and Waltrip ? How is a spotter gonna watch their
> car and the car that is making the best lap times and all the other cars at
> the same time ? Super Spotter ? What does "caution" supposed to mean if it
> does not mean step on the brake ? Does it mean drive faster to the
> start/finish line ?
Excellent points.
SimRacer
"Brian P. Sweeney" <rascpro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rascproponents-...@ip93.net195.mw.net...
First off, the spotter is the spotter, that's it. Folks timing the cars are
on the haulers or atop pit boxes as all they have to see is the car(s) as
they cross the S/F line.
Spotters are not timers. Quit trying to lay the blame on the girl, she was
simply one piece of the tragedy, not the cause. She didn't cause him to
wreck and come to rest against the wall. She did not cause ARCA to be slow
in getting word out. She did not cause her own spotter to be late to relay
the location of the wreck. She did not cause the oil, water and debris to be
on the track. She did not cause Martin's team to paint his car to perfectly
blend with the walls at Charlotte. She did not cause him to start unbuckling
before it was clear that everyone was aware there had been a wreck. Ever
been in a Cup-style car? Know how hard it really is to see out the
windshield?
On the track is the most dangerous place to be, but deaths and serious
injuries have occurred in less dangerous places. We have pit road speed
limits because a pit crew member was killed in the pits in the early 90s. We
have head and neck requirements partly because Sterling Marlin decided not
to give Dale Earnhardt all the room he needed in T4 in Daytona. The IRL has
wheel tethers because fans died at Charlotte after wheels and debris flew
over the fence. NASCAR has hood tethers because DE and BE got together and
sent a hood over the fence and broke a guy's leg. Why are you blaming
Deborah any more then any of the people involved in these incidents? Fucking
hypocrites.
Dan
"Brian P. Sweeney" <rascpro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rascproponents-...@ip93.net195.mw.net...
like you for example?
--
Some various ways to DNF:
Engine
Rear End
Accident
Handling
Bodine
($1 RASN to Willo)
tjmc
<no-unc.ta...@mindspring.com-spam> wrote:
>Why are you blaming
>Deborah any more then any of the people involved in these incidents? Fucking
>hypocrites.
Because she's probably guilty of at least negligent homicide, possibly
worse. All the lame, discredited and fabricated excuses you and others
have come up with to protect their agendas will never change that.
Book her.
Dan
"tjmc" <tj...@enteract.com> wrote in message
news:jue0ruk2390bgns9h...@4ax.com...
are you the ONLY person on the planet that fails to recognize auto racing is
a dangerous sport? I suppose you think Sterling Marlin, Rusty Wallace, Ken
Schrader, and the person who installed the belts in DE's car should be
charged with murder too.
r a p p y
When Kerry Earnhardt killed Blaise Alexander in pretty much the same
manner
and at the very same track almost exactly a year before, were you
angry that they didn't charge him with murder?
When Adam Petty killed his crew chief by running over him when the
jackman dropped the
jack while the crew cheif was still under the car why were you not
crying that the jack man
should be brough up on charges?
You have never answered these questions.....I'm curious. How you you
view these two deaths?
Brian P. Sweeney
<sabot...@hot.rr.com> wrote:
> "Brian P. Sweeney" <rascpro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:rascproponents-...@ip93.net195.mw.net...
> > In article <ipkuqussttct6qh1k...@4ax.com>, Alan Jones
> > <twent...@jalanjones.com> wrote:
> >
> > > http://jayski.com
> > >
> > > ARCA Accident Investigation News: An investigation of last
> > > Wednesday's fatal accident at Lowe's Motor Speedway
> > > concluded there was a delay in transmitting information about
> > > Eric Martin's crashed car to Deborah Renshaw, who slammed
> > > into Martin's stalled vehicle seconds later and killed him, ARCA
> > > President Ron Drager said yesterday. ''We feel that a spotter
> > > in the spotter's stand could have prevented what happened,''
> > > Drager said.
> >
> > So could anyone else being in her car.
>
> like you for example?
Yep.
Brian P. Sweeney
wrote:
Depends on the particular name the state gives to the offense, but the
State should have little proving up:
1) Operation of a motor vehicle.
2) Operation of a motor vehicle without regard to the safety of others.
3) Death resulting from her disregard for others' safety.
Depending on how the State slices and dices its manlsaughter laws, she may
get hung on a negligence standard, perhaps only a gross negligence
standard, but it should be some sort of felony, and some sort of jail
time.
As Prosecutor, I'd take a plea if she crafted and agreed to a permanent
ban from Racing.
I'd also have a detective spend a day, or so, on the subject of whether
she and Martin had any ill will.
Brian P. Sweeney
<sabot...@hot.rr.com> wrote:
> "tjmc" <tj...@enteract.com> wrote in message
> news:jue0ruk2390bgns9h...@4ax.com...
> > On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 16:24:19 GMT, "SimRacer"
> > <no-unc.ta...@mindspring.com-spam> wrote:
> >
> > >Why are you blaming
> > >Deborah any more then any of the people involved in these incidents?
> Fucking
> > >hypocrites.
> >
> > Because she's probably guilty of at least negligent homicide, possibly
> > worse. All the lame, discredited and fabricated excuses you and others
> > have come up with to protect their agendas will never change that.
> >
> > Book her.
>
> are you the ONLY person on the planet that fails to recognize auto racing is
> a dangerous sport? I suppose you think Sterling Marlin, Rusty Wallace, Ken
> Schrader, and the person who installed the belts in DE's car should be
> charged with murder too.
Construction work is dangerous, too, yet if you're building the Sears
Tower, and your coworker pushes you off the beams on the 79th floor, it's
murder.
Brian P. Sweeney
> > Because she's probably guilty of at least negligent homicide,
> possibly
> > worse. All the lame, discredited and fabricated excuses you and
> > others have come up with to protect their agendas will never change
> > that.
> >
> > Book her.
>
> When Kerry Earnhardt killed Blaise Alexander in pretty much the same
> manner
> and at the very same track almost exactly a year before, were you
> angry that they didn't charge him with murder?
Wow, I don't remember that story, at all. Didn't see a word of that in the
Midwest. Can you point us to a video?
>
> When Adam Petty killed his crew chief by running over him when the
> jackman dropped the
> jack while the crew cheif was still under the car why were you not
> crying that the jack man
> should be brough up on charges?
I remember a little more of this, but still not enough to make a decision.
>
>
> You have never answered these questions.....I'm curious. How you you
> view these two deaths?
Murder requires a bad act and a bad heart. When you have the elements, you
have the crime.
Dan
"Brian P. Sweeney" <rascpro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rascproponents-...@ip9.net195.mw.net...
and that has WHAT to do with this?
are you trying to imply that Deborah spun him then came back around to kill
him?
Dan
"Brian P. Sweeney" <rascpro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rascproponents-...@ip9.net195.mw.net...
murder requires intent. along with motive and opportunity. while she may
have had opportunity, it's highly unlikely there is ANY motive or intent.
Dan
"Brian P. Sweeney" <rascpro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rascproponents-...@ip9.net195.mw.net...
and you have how much more experience in a ARCA car than her?
Bob the Builder
Deborah and her crew where following the ARCA rules. She and her crew
didn't do anything or neglect to do anything that put Eric in danger. Eric
put himself in danger when he crash. It's a racing deal. Sometimes drivers
die in crashes.
tjmc
Sweeney) wrote:
>Depending on how the State slices and dices its manlsaughter laws, she may
>get hung on a negligence standard, perhaps only a gross negligence
>standard, but it should be some sort of felony, and some sort of jail
>time.
No question. Permanent record.
>As Prosecutor, I'd take a plea if she crafted and agreed to a permanent
>ban from Racing.
If she's found guilty, absolutely. Any other way would mean once she's
out there would be nothing keeping her off a race track. The State
should be in the business of protecting its citizens.
Brian P. Sweeney
<sabot...@hot.rr.com> wrote:
> > > > So could anyone else being in her car.
> > >
> > > like you for example?
> >
> > Yep.
>
> and you have how much more experience in a ARCA car than her?
I can slow down when I see a yellow.
Brian P. Sweeney
wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:47:41 -0500, rascpro...@yahoo.com (Brian P.
> Sweeney) wrote:
>
> >Depending on how the State slices and dices its manlsaughter laws, she may
> >get hung on a negligence standard, perhaps only a gross negligence
> >standard, but it should be some sort of felony, and some sort of jail
> >time.
>
> No question. Permanent record.
Yep.
>
> >As Prosecutor, I'd take a plea if she crafted and agreed to a permanent
> >ban from Racing.
>
> If she's found guilty, absolutely. Any other way would mean once she's
> out there would be nothing keeping her off a race track. The State
> should be in the business of protecting its citizens.
Good point.
Brian P. Sweeney
<b...@fakeco.com.az> wrote:
> Deborah and her crew where following the ARCA rules. She and her crew
> didn't do anything or neglect to do anything that put Eric in danger. Eric
> put himself in danger when he crash. It's a racing deal. Sometimes drivers
> die in crashes.
And sometimes the conduct of other causes the death.
Zanardi is the greatest driver I've ever seen or heard about. My all-time
absolute favorite. I'd love to blame Tagliani, but I can't. It was a
bang-bang play, and Tag was as much a victim as Z.
This was different. I've never seen anything like this.
Brian P. Sweeney
<sabot...@hot.rr.com> wrote:
> > Murder requires a bad act and a bad heart. When you have the elements, you
> > have the crime.
>
>
> murder requires intent. along with motive and opportunity. while she may
> have had opportunity, it's highly unlikely there is ANY motive or intent.
"Motive" and "opportunity" are evidentiary points which help cops and
juries. The legal definition of murder is what I described.
Brian P. Sweeney
<sabot...@hot.rr.com> wrote:
No, I'm implying she likes a burger cooked medium-rare, with a slice of
red onion on top.
You really missed this.
Alan Jones
but who is sure the yellow track lights were activated 'in
time'? i would honestly like to know if theres a witness or
any video of that. the only way DR could share 'any' blame
in what happened is if they were turned on while she was
on the backstretch or, at the latest, coming into turn 3.
Dan
"Brian P. Sweeney" <rascpro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rascproponents-...@ip150.net194.mw.net...
so you were at the track?
you know for a FACT that the yellow had actually come out? especially since
the video makes no mention of it the only way you would know that for a FACT
is if you were there.
tjmc
>When Kerry Earnhardt killed Blaise Alexander
>When Adam Petty killed his crew chief
>You have never answered these questions.....I'm curious. How you you
>view these two deaths?
Asked and answered where I outlined the Italian solution. That would
leave nothing to chance. Both fatalities would have been investigated
by a federal authority, not a race track and certainly not a sanctioning
body.
FTR, I don't recall seeing videos of either event and have no opinion
either way. I did, however, see the video of Ms. Renshaw killing a man
where no further accident should have occurred, much less a death.
Inexcusable. Intolerable. Punishable under the law.
Dan
"tjmc" <tj...@enteract.com> wrote in message
news:f251ruc6pvmgb1mfc...@4ax.com...
but since you have no PROOF, except for the videotape, which doesn't show a
yellow flag or yellow lights, your argument has no merit.
tjmc
>but since you have no PROOF, except for the videotape, which doesn't show a
>yellow flag or yellow lights, your argument has no merit.
That's why we need to go to court.
It's also a good time to look up and reread the subject of this thread.
Address@sprintmail.com Mike Marlow
"SimRacer" <no-unc.ta...@mindspring.com-spam> wrote in message
news:TAWr9.280$hp5....@twister.southeast.rr.com...
>
> She did not cause Martin's team to paint his car to perfectly
> blend with the walls at Charlotte.
I know there's been a lot of speculation in here about this, but so far, I
don't believe I've seen anything that has come out and said that the car
blended in so perfectly with the wall. As best I know, that's a theory that
originated right here at the lake.
> She did not cause him to start unbuckling
> before it was clear that everyone was aware there had been a wreck.
Last I read, the crew chief said that Martin was in fact still buckled in.
Again, unless I missed something, this too was a theory that originated
right here at the lake.
>
> On the track is the most dangerous place to be, but deaths and serious
> injuries have occurred in less dangerous places. We have pit road speed
> limits because a pit crew member was killed in the pits in the early 90s.
We
> have head and neck requirements partly because Sterling Marlin decided not
> to give Dale Earnhardt all the room he needed in T4 in Daytona. The IRL
has
> wheel tethers because fans died at Charlotte after wheels and debris flew
> over the fence. NASCAR has hood tethers because DE and BE got together and
> sent a hood over the fence and broke a guy's leg. Why are you blaming
> Deborah any more then any of the people involved in these incidents?
Fucking
> hypocrites.
>
Right on!
--
-Mike-
mma...@REMOVEsprintmail.com
ScottB
>I know there's been a lot of speculation in here about this <snip>
Here's mine. Inexperience and stupidity caused Martin's death. Not gender. HTH
8 20 29
Scott B.
Semper Fidelis
tjmc
>Here's mine. Inexperience and stupidity caused Martin's death. Not gender. HTH
Sing it.
bill mccandless
> On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 16:24:19 GMT, "SimRacer"
>
> worse. All the lame, discredited and fabricated excuses you and others
> have come up with to protect their agendas will never change that.
>
> Book her.
and you are an idiot!!!!!!!
SAP...@nospam.nowhere.ever
> In article <KzIr9.164941$S32.11...@news2.west.cox.net>, "cfswestern"
> <cfswe...@lvcm.com> wrote:
>
> > That is total 100% unadulterated bullshit. Who the fuck you gonna get to
be
> > spotters ? Richard Petty and Waltrip ? How is a spotter gonna watch
their
> > car and the car that is making the best lap times and all the other cars
at
> > the same time ? Super Spotter ? What does "caution" supposed to mean
if it
> > does not mean step on the brake ? Does it mean drive faster to the
> > start/finish line ?
>
> Excellent points.
Green means go, Red means stop, Yellow means go really, really fast. $1 to
Starman.
cfswestern
<SAP...@nospam.nowhere.ever> wrote in message
news:jv4s9.11821$ku....@news.bellsouth.net...
can see what all the excitement is about. Or be part of it of course. You
would think the idea at the ARCA crash would have been to ask the other
drivers about yellow lights and oily tracks. Not the one with the
concussion. That don't hardly make no sense at all. Or it does if it suits
your purposes. As bad as the accident was the follow-up was worse.
Ms. Goodrwench
So I take it you're no longer regarding Mr. Sweeney as a troll who
doesn't deserve the benefit of a reply?
You know what he's doing, I presume?
For the record I don't necessarily disagree with you on the Renshaw
matter... I just can't lynch or exhonerate her without knowing more.
Ms.Goodwrench; Deus Ex Machinehead
A flash of light, a cloud of dust, and... What was the question?
Dan
"tjmc" <tj...@enteract.com> wrote in message
news:f8c1ru4abtb62m3r6...@4ax.com...
give it a rest tjmc. to you this whole thing is about gender. you are silent
about Kerry killing Blaise.
John Sutphin
tjmc wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:14:52 -0400, "r a p p y" <ra...@not.com> wrote:
>
> >When Kerry Earnhardt killed Blaise Alexander
>
> >When Adam Petty killed his crew chief
>
> >You have never answered these questions.....I'm curious. How you you
> >view these two deaths?
>
> Asked and answered where I outlined the Italian solution. That would
> leave nothing to chance. Both fatalities would have been investigated
> by a federal authority, not a race track and certainly not a sanctioning
> body.
I read that Henrico County, VA, the county I live in and where RIR is, by
law would have to investigate any death not caused by natural causes. This
was written in an article just after Dale, SR. died. I don't recall if the
local police investigated Earnhardt's death. I am also not sure if this law
is a county law or state law. If it is a state law than it would apply to
deaths at Martinsville, South Boston, VIR, Old Dominion, Southside, Lamgley,
etc.
>
>
> FTR, I don't recall seeing videos of either event and have no opinion
> either way. I did, however, see the video of Ms. Renshaw killing a man
> where no further accident should have occurred, much less a death.
>
> Inexcusable. Intolerable. Punishable under the law.
I've had a heard time figuring out why some posters keep comparing the two
ARCA deaths to each other. Other than being ARCA cars at Charlotte there is
little comparasion. You know what happened in the Renshaw-Martin deal. In
the other Kerry and Blaise made direct contact while racing for the lead in
the tri-oval. My initial feeling was Kerry was a tad impatient but it was
still a racing incident.
John
tjmc
Goodrwench) wrote:
>So I take it you're no longer regarding Mr. Sweeney as a troll who
>doesn't deserve the benefit of a reply?
We've recently had a discussion or two over on rasi that stayed fairly
civil. But I'll take things one at a time.
>You know what he's doing, I presume?
Well, I'm guessing he's feeling as pissed off over this whole affair as
I am. Every time I run that crash video in my head I get more pissed
off by the reality of the subject title of this thread.
>For the record I don't necessarily disagree with you on the Renshaw
>matter... I just can't lynch or exhonerate her without knowing more.
For about the 400th time, that's the point of having an investigation by
someone other than an interested party.
tjmc
>give it a rest tjmc. to you this whole thing is about gender. you are silent
>about Kerry killing Blaise.
Read John Sutphin's excellent analysis above.
tjmc
wrote:
>I read that Henrico County, VA, the county I live in and where RIR is, by
>law would have to investigate any death not caused by natural causes. This
>was written in an article just after Dale, SR. died. I don't recall if the
>local police investigated Earnhardt's death. I am also not sure if this law
>is a county law or state law. If it is a state law than it would apply to
>deaths at Martinsville, South Boston, VIR, Old Dominion, Southside, Lamgley,
>etc.
That's pretty much the idea but I do believe it needs to go federal.
Cities like Charlotte, Indianapolis, Daytona and the like are
environments where the tracks have considerable economic impacts making
it politically difficult for a young prosecutor to work freely.
>I've had a heard time figuring out why some posters keep comparing the two
>ARCA deaths to each other.
The reason is every single excuse for not placing the blame on Ms.
Renshaw has been proved not to be credible, either in fact or by common
sense. They have nothing left. She was warned over the radio. There
were yellow lights. Other drivers in front of her did not encounter
oil.
The jury would have no trouble with this one.
cfswestern
>
>
> The reason is every single excuse for not placing the blame on Ms.
> Renshaw has been proved not to be credible, either in fact or by common
> sense. They have nothing left. She was warned over the radio. There
> were yellow lights. Other drivers in front of her did not encounter
> oil.
>
> The jury would have no trouble with this one.
I do not care if you borrow every single one of my points but you can at
least give me $ 1. Let me tell you what really happened. Shania Twain
lookalike was advanced too quickly. Her job was to drive the car at a 160
MPH clip. It took 100 % of her concentration to do so. So that left about
0 % for yellow lights and caution warning. She ran the perfect racing line
at top speed into the car that happened to be sitting there through no fault
of her own. A better driver or an equal driver with a little more experience
simply would have turned a few feet to the left and went around it. Just
like all the other cars did. Little 5 foot 5 homecoming queen sits a little
closer to the wheel which just happens to cut off her view a little more.
Just racin'.
tjmc
wrote:
>I do not care if you borrow every single one of my points but you can at
>least give me $ 1.
I was unaware of your ownership of public knowledge. I'll be more
careful next time.
>Let me tell you what really happened. Shania Twain
>lookalike was advanced too quickly. Her job was to drive the car at a 160
>MPH clip. It took 100 % of her concentration to do so. So that left about
>0 % for yellow lights and caution warning. She ran the perfect racing line
>at top speed into the car that happened to be sitting there through no fault
>of her own. A better driver or an equal driver with a little more experience
>simply would have turned a few feet to the left and went around it. Just
>like all the other cars did.
I'd say you just about nailed it.
>Little 5 foot 5 homecoming queen sits a little
>closer to the wheel which just happens to cut off her view a little more.
Obviously you've never stood next to John Andretti.
>Just racin'.
Just politics. I wonder if this is the first needless death directly
attributable to the agenda of the politically correct?
I bet it doesn't even bother them in the slightest.
----
What? You all thought there would be no consequences for pushing your
political agendas beyond the natural laws of experience and competence?
In auto racing?
cfswestern
I did not just about nailed it. I nailed it with 100% accuracy.
tjmc
wrote:
>I did not just about nailed it. I nailed it with 100% accuracy.
Good. Then we've finally settled it definitively.
Ms.Goodwrench
>On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 17:04:57 GMT, msgoodw...@hotmail.com (Ms.
>Goodrwench) wrote:
>
>>So I take it you're no longer regarding Mr. Sweeney as a troll who
>>doesn't deserve the benefit of a reply?
>
>We've recently had a discussion or two over on rasi that stayed fairly
>civil. But I'll take things one at a time.
>
>>You know what he's doing, I presume?
>
>Well, I'm guessing he's feeling as pissed off over this whole affair as
>I am. Every time I run that crash video in my head I get more pissed
>off by the reality of the subject title of this thread.
>
I can't give him the benefit of the doubt as you have... I did a few
times in the past, as did a few others (including Ralph). I hate to
see someone of your stature here "legitimize" the guy by having normal
social discourse with him.
>>For the record I don't necessarily disagree with you on the Renshaw
>>matter... I just can't lynch or exhonerate her without knowing more.
>
>For about the 400th time, that's the point of having an investigation by
>someone other than an interested party.
I'm all for it. Especially since 2/18/01. On your recommendation I
read up on Ayrton Senna's death and the ensuing police investigation
with great interest after Earnhardt's death.
The Martin/Renshaw incident might be the perfect example of why an
independent investigation should be conducted by law enforcement. I
think we all want to hear what everyone at the track that day has to
say about it. If cops can interview witnesses - lots of them -
without ARCA, NASCAR, or LMS officials hovering in the background, we
might actually find out all the little details that make the
difference between a driver being completely incompetent and killing
another racer, or an inexperienced driver caught in a mess of
everything-coming-together-wrong and creating tragedy.
But if Martin's widow, and other racers there that day aren't going to
press it, than I guess it's futile. Unless there's a DA or
investigator in Charlotte like the Italian official who doggedly
investigated Senna's crash.
Fat chance, eh?
tjmc
wrote:
>I can't give him the benefit of the doubt as you have... I did a few
>times in the past, as did a few others (including Ralph). I hate to
>see someone of your stature here "legitimize" the guy by having normal
>social discourse with him.
FTR, my stature here and a small second mortgage will get us a couple of
cups of coffee at Starbucks. One thing I've always admired about
rasners is their independence.
>I'm all for it. Especially since 2/18/01. On your recommendation I
>read up on Ayrton Senna's death and the ensuing police investigation
>with great interest after Earnhardt's death.
Fascinating stuff, hey? The fault as I see it with the Italian system
is charges *must* be brought against someone outta the gate. I don't
think that would be constitutional over here. And since many sports
have inherent dangers, there has to be room for fatalities due simply by
the nature of the contest.
On the other hand, if nothing is done, auto racing in America could
eventually face political pressures not unlike tobacco or firearms. A
few "do-gooders" with a video tape of Ms. Renshaw's wreck in front of a
congressional committee could do a lot of damage. It's always good to
remember the Swiss permanently banned racing after the carnage at LeMans
in 1955.
>The Martin/Renshaw incident might be the perfect example of why an
>independent investigation should be conducted by law enforcement.
Textbook.
>But if Martin's widow, and other racers there that day aren't going to
>press it, than I guess it's futile.
I don't think it's fair to put that sort of pressure on widows and
families as they may be attempting to negotiate much needed settlements.
That's why a governmental investigation must be mandatory.
>Unless there's a DA or
>investigator in Charlotte like the Italian official who doggedly
>investigated Senna's crash.
>Fat chance, eh?
No chance.
diddy
>
> >But if Martin's widow, and other racers there that day aren't going to
> >press it, than I guess it's futile.
>
> I don't think it's fair to put that sort of pressure on widows and
> families as they may be attempting to negotiate much needed settlements.
> That's why a governmental investigation must be mandatory.
>
bud hufstetler
You two have changed me from a definitely no way position to a maybe,
possibly. I still have strong reservations about the guv getting involved
without a request from the family,though. Thanks for all your thoughts.
Bud
SAP...@nospam.nowhere.ever
"Ms.Goodwrench" <je...@msmisp.com> wrote in message
> But if Martin's widow, and other racers there that day aren't going to
> press it, than I guess it's futile. Unless there's a DA or
> investigator in Charlotte like the Italian official who doggedly
> investigated Senna's crash.
The state can still investigate and prosecute manslaughter even if there is
no next of kin or if the next of kin has no interest in the prosecution of a
criminal case. So, we need to just wait and see what happens. I suspect,
like you do, that nothing will even be investigated. It's perceived as
"one of them racing things".
SAP...@nospam.nowhere.ever
"bud hufstetler" <buggz...@aol.comspamsux> wrote in message
> You two have changed me from a definitely no way position to a maybe,
> possibly. I still have strong reservations about the guv getting involved
> without a request from the family,though. Thanks for all your thoughts.
What if he had no family? What if the family just feels that nothing will
bring Eric back, and to just drop it? An investigation could yield
something that saves someone else's life 5 years down the road. As such,
even if the family says no, the state could and should say yes -
investigate the death. I don't believe Renshaw was at fault, but I believe
LMS and ARCA should be cited for not having red/yellow lights in cars, not
having red/yellow lights ever 200 feet; and not having spotters in the
correct positions to yield maximum safety results.
Dan
"tjmc" <tj...@enteract.com> wrote in message
news:iig8rugeinemlk2bs...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 09:14:57 -0400, Ms.Goodwrench <je...@msmisp.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I can't give him the benefit of the doubt as you have... I did a few
> >times in the past, as did a few others (including Ralph). I hate to
> >see someone of your stature here "legitimize" the guy by having normal
> >social discourse with him.
>
> FTR, my stature here and a small second mortgage will get us a couple of
> cups of coffee at Starbucks. One thing I've always admired about
> rasners is their independence.
>
> >I'm all for it. Especially since 2/18/01. On your recommendation I
> >read up on Ayrton Senna's death and the ensuing police investigation
> >with great interest after Earnhardt's death.
>
and what would you do about DE's death? charge DE himself? after all, he was
holding the field behind him. or maybe the guy that put the belts in the car
incorrectly? or DE for not wearing a HANS device? get a grip, racing is D A
N G E R O U S
FredE
SAP...@nospam.nowhere.ever says...
>I don't believe Renshaw was at fault
I believe That Miss Renshaw should give me a BlowJob.
Ms.Goodwrench
You're totally missing the point. It's not about somehow keeping
drivers from ever getting hurt or killed racing - that's impossible.
What it's about is at this time, whenever a tragedy does occur on
track, the ones running the investigation and reaching the conclusions
are the sanctioning bodies and to a lesser extent, the track owners
(which often is the sanctioning body). Do you really think they'll
come to a conclusion that could cost them money in a lawsuit down the
road?
If an independent investigation had occurred after Adam Petty's death,
might we still have Kenny Irwin, Tony Roper, even Dale Earnhardt? It
took 3 more deaths after Adam to make NASCAR enforce a head restraint
system.
These sanctioning bodies look at the bottom line. Their lawyers do
what's necessary to cover everyone's ass.
Whether Debra Renshaw is as guilty of pure incompetence as TJ and some
others think (I won't go that far, but nor will I exhonerate her
because we simply don't know, and at this point probably never will)
or just an inexperienced driver (for Charlotte) who got caught up in
several unfortunate circumstances coming together, a driver died in a
situation that just doesn't happen under normal circumstances. In all
my years of watching big league auto racing, I can't recall ever
seeing a driver die like Eric Martin did. Not once.
Maybe the conclusion ARCA reached is accurate. Or maybe it's a good
old 'scenerio that covers the most asses' fabrication. Point is, once
again, someone somewhere along the line seriously fucked up and a
young driver died horribly and worst of all, COMPLETELY UNNECESSARILY.
A conclusion was once again reached that it was just a tragic racing
deal. Bullshit.
I haven't read all the posts on this deal because I just didn't have
then fortitude to wade through them all... but one thing I didn't see
was anything about a cover-up because Renshaw's a woman, a woman who
made a lot of press over the summer. Had Renshaw been a man, might
people have been a little more terse in their judgement of her part in
the crash? Or would she have even been on that track in the first
place?
Is that the *real* question?
Everyone wants a good competitive woman driver in the upper ranks of
auto racing. I'm a veritable John the Baptist waiting on the day she
arrives in NASCAR. But this current trend of grabbing the nearest
female racing and tossing her into the lake to sink or swim is gonna
get someone killed.
Or maybe it has, last week.
I'd don't know what the answer is, or who is to blame or even what
should be done, but I do agree with TJ and some of the others that
Martin's death wasn't just another on track racing deal, one of those
things that happens on occasion. It was sheer negligent homicide on
someone's end.
Okay, I'm done with my Greg Bailey imitation... I hope I was at least
half as coherent as he is.
Dan
says there is a HUGE blind spot and that you can not in fact see the middle
of the front straight coming off turn 4.
i guess if little jeffy had collided with Eric we wouldn't be having this
discussion at all
~linda~
<Big Snip>
If an independent investigation had occurred after Adam Petty's death,
might we still have Kenny Irwin, Tony Roper, even Dale Earnhardt? It
took 3 more deaths after Adam to make NASCAR enforce a head restraint
system.
<snip>
Whether Debra Renshaw is as guilty of pure incompetence as TJ and some
others think (I won't go that far, but nor will I exonerate her because
we simply don't know, and at this point probably never will) or just an
inexperienced driver (for Charlotte) who got caught up in several
unfortunate circumstances coming together, a driver died in a situation
that just doesn't happen under normal circumstances. In all my years of
watching big league auto racing, I can't recall ever seeing a driver die
like Eric Martin did. Not once.
<snip>
Point is, once again, someone somewhere along the line seriously fucked
up and a young driver died horribly and worst of all, COMPLETELY
UNNECESSARILY.
A conclusion was once again reached that it was just a tragic racing
deal. Bullshit.
I haven't read all the posts on this deal because I just didn't have
then fortitude to wade through them all... but one thing I didn't see
was anything about a cover-up because Renshaw's a woman, a woman who
made a lot of press over the summer. Had Renshaw been a man, might
people have been a little more terse in their judgement of her part in
the crash? Or would she have even been on that track in the first place?
Is that the *real* question?
<snip>
I don't know what the answer is, or who is to blame or even what should
be done, but I do agree with TJ and some of the others that Martin's
death wasn't just another on track racing deal, one of those things that
happens on occasion. It was sheer negligent homicide on someone's end.
-- Ms. Goodwrench --
````````````````````````````````````````````
I -have- read all the posts in this thread, and some of them several
times.
However, I cannot wade through the verbiage to get a clear understanding
of what is the real issue. I can be so thick headed that what is a
crystal of truth to everyone else, becomes a hopeless mudhole for me.
Is this about justice? Courts.
Or is this about safety? Sanctioning bodies.
Do you want SOMEONE to be found guilty of a crime, and receive a
sentence?
Or do you want stricter rules and regs to apply to any driver who races
in any series?
In my simplistic mind, you cannot answer yes to both questions in the
Renshaw tragedy.
help.....
~linda~
Okay, I'm done with my Greg Bailey imitation... I hope I
was at least
half as coherent as he is.
You just be you. You is coherent enough just the way you are. ;-)
haha Bailey/Bailey
tjmc
wrote:
>Is this about justice? Courts.
Yes.
>Or is this about safety? Sanctioning bodies.
Those, too. The idea is that justice, or the threat of justice, would
contribute to safety. Just as the threat of justice might cause us not
to rob a bank.
>Do you want SOMEONE to be found guilty of a crime, and receive a
>sentence?
If it is investigated and someone is found guilty of a crime, yes. Most
certainly. But no matter what, it needs to be investigated.
>Or do you want stricter rules and regs to apply to any driver who races
>in any series?
That's up to the sanctioning bodies. Hopefully with the threat of
justice hanging over their heads they will conduct their business more
responsibly resulting in fewer deaths.
>In my simplistic mind, you cannot answer yes to both questions in the
>Renshaw tragedy.
I think you asked three, maybe four. In any case I can't see how any of
them are exclusive of each other.
> Okay, I'm done with my Greg Bailey imitation... I hope I
>was at least
> half as coherent as he is.
>You just be you. You is coherent enough just the way you are. ;-)
> haha Bailey/Bailey
The boy did get his panties bunched up. Even to the point of distorting
one of the few undeniable facts in this whole affair. Too bad. Shot
his credibility on the matter to shreds.
~linda~
>
> Yes.
>
> >Or is this about safety? Sanctioning bodies.
>
> Those, too. The idea is that justice, or the threat of justice, would
> contribute to safety. Just as the threat of justice might cause us not
> to rob a bank.
>
> >Do you want SOMEONE to be found guilty of a crime, and receive a
> >sentence?
>
> certainly. But no matter what, it needs to be investigated.
>
> >Or do you want stricter rules and regs to apply to any driver who races
> >in any series?
>
> That's up to the sanctioning bodies. Hopefully with the threat of
> justice hanging over their heads they will conduct their business more
> responsibly resulting in fewer deaths.
>
> >In my simplistic mind, you cannot answer yes to both questions in the
> >Renshaw tragedy.
>
> I think you asked three, maybe four. In any case I can't see how any of
> them are exclusive of each other.
``````````````````````````````````````
You want a judicial process to ensure a legitimate investigation,
determine if a crime has been committed and determine sentencing, in
hopes that the racing powers will behave more responsibly. The
Renshaw case will become the standard
for all future "incidents". This case would have the best chance of
sucess because it is by far the most blatant.
Am I closer? Isn't it so sad that we need the "threat of justice
hanging over their heads" to have a better chance of responsible
business practices? Isn't it even sader that Ms. Renshaw could become
the scapegoat for the big money business of racing?
~linda~
Ms.Goodwrench
>I read in last weeks Winston Cup scene that even the "great" jeff gordon
>says there is a HUGE blind spot and that you can not in fact see the middle
>of the front straight coming off turn 4.
>i guess if little jeffy had collided with Eric we wouldn't be having this
>discussion at all
Have you ever read about all the tragedies that have occurred in turn
4 at Charlotte? Creepy stuff, really. Not just deaths, but really
nasty deaths...
I get the heeby-jeebies just looking at the bright blue seats in the
stands in that corner, remembering the controversial photo Sports
Illustrated ran shortly 3 fans were killed by pieces of an IRL car
that went flying into the stands. What hit me from that photo was the
bright blue seats and the bright red blood covering them.
Dan
"Ms.Goodwrench" <je...@msmisp.com> wrote in message
news:puadruslphp7bh7t3...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:19:56 GMT, "Dan" <sabot...@hot.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >I read in last weeks Winston Cup scene that even the "great" jeff gordon
> >says there is a HUGE blind spot and that you can not in fact see the
middle
> >of the front straight coming off turn 4.
> >i guess if little jeffy had collided with Eric we wouldn't be having this
> >discussion at all
>
>
>
>
> Have you ever read about all the tragedies that have occurred in turn
> 4 at Charlotte? Creepy stuff, really. Not just deaths, but really
> nasty deaths...
>
> I get the heeby-jeebies just looking at the bright blue seats in the
> stands in that corner, remembering the controversial photo Sports
> Illustrated ran shortly 3 fans were killed by pieces of an IRL car
> that went flying into the stands. What hit me from that photo was the
> bright blue seats and the bright red blood covering them.
we agree that it is tragic that Eric had to die, but to say that Deborah
aimed for his car or any of the other crap that has been spewed on here
since it happened is ludicrous. that was why I made the above point. if
jeffy had been driving the car, it would be written off as "one o them racin
deals" by the masses in here.
ScottB
>Have you ever read about all the tragedies that have occurred in turn 4 at
Charlotte?
One especially nasty one where hundreds watched a trapped driver burn to death.
8 20 29
Scott B.
Semper Fidelis
Sean
news:20021023103438...@mb-mk.aol.com...
> Ms.Goodwrench writes:
>
> >Have you ever read about all the tragedies that have occurred in turn 4
at
> Charlotte?
>
> One especially nasty one where hundreds watched a trapped driver burn to
death.
Was the track erected on top of an Indian burial ground?
Ms.Goodwrench
>Ms.Goodwrench writes:
>
>>Have you ever read about all the tragedies that have occurred in turn 4 at
>Charlotte?
>
>One especially nasty one where hundreds watched a trapped driver burn to death.
>
Yep, from the Sportsman series Humpy ran there for awhile. It was
controversial because it was basically weekend warriors or entry level
drivers racing at a track way over their heads, in cars not remotely
safe enough for speeds that great. Wheeler's intentions were good,
but they had 2 (or 3?) guys die in the same season in horrible
crashes, one of which was the one you mentioned. The guy who runs a
racing collectibles place here in town was at the other crash, and
said it was the worst thing he'd seen in all his years of racing.
According to Sean Assael's book, track workers were still hosing blood
off the fence, walkway, and bleachers at 9 o'clock that night.
Charlotte is soooo fast, and that double dog leg is tricky as hell.
This is a lame comparison, but I could never master it in NASCAR 4 or
2002 Season (though the tracks are supposed to be almost perfectly
accurate). I know a few drivers have spoken up about turn 4 and blind
spots and all, but if it's as bad as some say, I'd have a better time
believing Renshaw couldn't have seen Martin until too late if a lot
more drivers were speaking out about it.
I think like the fans, a lot of them just don't know what to think.
Glenn Stafford
I've stayed out of this one until now.
It's a racin deal. Read this rasn'er UCAP
Subject: Weekend UCAP (Or...Now I Know Why They Need Spotters!)
From: Jack R. Ceman
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=3b13dd58.3996252%40News.CIS.DFN.DE
"here comes the 43! Yeehaa!! I climb in
easily, get strapped in and have my pic taken and off we go. There is
no speed limit on pit road when there is no one else on the track, so
we are up to third gear by the time we hit the track and rocket onto
the bank in Turn 1. I'm already being pressed hard into my seat and
lifted to the right -- there is nothing to see in front of us but
pavement, by looking up at the top of the windsheild I can only see
about 4 white dashes ahead. This is my first revelation -- you can't
see s*&t in the turns! Nada. ZIP. Zilch!"
_____
granted this is Daytona, but it's nothing a little 'sperience won't
cure.
A tragedy that a caution light rule would take care of. I place that
blame on the track ownership, which has it's share of safety issues
already.
tjmc
>Am I closer?
Closer.
>Isn't it so sad that we need the "threat of justice
>hanging over their heads" to have a better chance of responsible
>business practices?
Without the threat of justice hanging over their heads some American
businesses would probably still be employing child labor.
>Isn't it even sader that Ms. Renshaw could become
>the scapegoat for the big money business of racing?
Last I heard, her hands had access to the steering wheel and her feet
were within reach of the brake and throttle. Referring to Ms. Renshaw
as a scapegoat is a perfect example of this society's unwillingness to
assign personal responsibility...in almost anything.
Maybe I just haven't seen it but another interesting aspect is I've yet
to hear Ms. Renshaw issue any public statement regretting the incident,
an expression of her sympathies toward Eric's widow and children or any
help (including a donation) with getting the word out about the
financial fund set up to assist his loved ones.