The Dale crash photo, my rendition
Steve K
The thing about this is, I understand why these guys see what they are seeing. Because
I can see it too. It's like thinking you hear the devil when you spin Hotel California
backwards.
BUT!!!!
I don't believe it's what it is.
Look here:
http://distance-ed.arme.cornell.edu/seafood/dale.jpg
It's his shoulder (or lack there of) that proves everything. If that is not his
shoulder, then that is not him against the wheel, or even up near the dashboard.
Steve K
James Wheeler
And if you look at the picture at the bottom of your page, you can see what the
white stripe is, the Simpson tag on the window net.
I'll admit, when I first saw the pic a couple of months ago, I saw what Alan and
others claim to see, but now after seeing photos of DE's car in the race, it's
clear that the white vertical stripes are not his shoulder, but the Simpson tag
on the window net. The picture is very blurry, which is why you can't read the
tag.
Thanks for taking the time to do this, I was going to do the same thing, now I
got time to do something constructive ;-)
--
James Wheeler
Wheeler's World - http://www.angelfire.com/mi3/wheeler
Good read: "The Elegant Universe: Superstrings, Hidden Dimensions,
and the Quest for the Ultimate Theory", by Brian Greene
SnowDog
news:smk17-04AA18....@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu...
> It's his shoulder (or lack there of) that proves everything. If that is
not his
> shoulder, then that is not him against the wheel, or even up near the
dashboard.
And the whitish blur above the "shoulder" would have to be his helmet. But
that blur, if it were a helmet, would be a white full-faced helmet, which
Dale never wore, as far as I know.
--
"No his mind is not for rent - To any god or government"
- Peart/Dubois "Tom Sawyer"
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Scotty & Lela
"SnowDog" <sno...@tobesofhades.org> wrote in message
news:3af6f...@Usenet.com...
Ms.Goodwrench
Hey, if you can see Jesus in a soft tortilla,....
Ms.Goodwrench RDE 1951-2001
Go back to bed America; your government is in control. - Bill Hicks
scroob
this: if that is not his shoulder, then just what IS it? what
else in the car was white with a black stripe? also, the
orientation is exactly what you would expect.
if that is not his helmet, then what IS it?
i think that is Dale contacting the steering wheel at over 180
MPH into the wall, which is exactly what we were told happened.
remember Schrader on camera right after the wreck? he was asked
how Dale was - something crossed his face before he got his
composure and made his "i'm not a doctor statement." at that
moment, i knew that Dale Earnhardt was dead.
je...@msmisp.com (Ms.Goodwrench) wrote in <3af7ed0f.90464566
@news.msmisp.com>:
scroob
what is it?
keep in mind that the sleeve of his uniform is likely twisted due
to the blunt impact, and you are probably getting an oblique view
of the stripe.
not to get macabre here, but if Dale did contact the wheel, he
was already dead.
the cause of death was a clean break of the spine just below the
skull, and severance of the spinal cord. death was instantaneous.
the best thing to say about this is that Dale never knew any of
it.
Alan Jones <ala...@yahoo.com> wrote in
<ha6gftccp1t0qjcne...@4ax.com>:
>
>Im glad you do see it. Hitting the steering wheel has become
>borderline for me. Does the wheel come out that far? In the
>photo on my page, it seems to me that his helmet is about
>where the wheel would be. Honestly, I want to see what is
>actually there. (thanks)
>
> - "Man, the flames on that 24 car was... smokin' !!"
> www.jalanjones.com/nascar
KINGCIGAR
The autopsy report in both it's draft and final report states positively that
there was NO broken, compressed, pulled or any substantial injury to
Earnhardt's neck or cervical spine.
His injury to his head IS NOT the classic BASAL SKULL FRACTURE where the spinal
cord is seperated, cut or nicked by the bones in the skull, neck and spine to
either "seperate" or "pull out" the spinal cord from the base of the brain etc.
Earnhardt's head injuries are a classic "ring fracture" of the skull and other
than the perforation of two layers of the brain covering and the attendant
bleeding thereof; there is very little injuries to the grey or white matter of
his brain according to the autopsy narrative.
Trying to lump Earnhardt's injuries as similar to others that have died of
these fractures is suspect at best because of the "variances" in ways that
basal skull fractures are described.
John Krulik
"scroob" <no...@none.com> wrote in message
news:Xns909B5512...@216.102.43.227...
> if that is not his helmet, then what IS it?
If we are looking at it the same way then we are seeing the back of the
helmet, his head would be looking to the right. But what I don't understand
is if that is the case, How did he get so close to the wheel if
the belts were snugged up. Seems to me that Dale always sat low in the
car with the back of his helmet close to rear of the from door. However
if that is his helmet, something allowed Dale to travel quite a bit in the
car.
If the seat remained in tact and the belts did their job, I have a hard time
believing that he could travel that far even in a hard impact.
Ms.Goodwrench
>NO. NOT. NADA. ON THE NECK/SPINE INJURIES
>
>The autopsy report in both it's draft and final report states positively that
>there was NO broken, compressed, pulled or any substantial injury to
>Earnhardt's neck or cervical spine.
>
>His injury to his head IS NOT the classic BASAL SKULL FRACTURE where the spinal
>cord is seperated, cut or nicked by the bones in the skull, neck and spine to
>either "seperate" or "pull out" the spinal cord from the base of the brain etc.
>
Mark Stahl can correct me if I'm wrong, but a BSF is where the skull comes apart at the sutures
(growth joints) around the base and occipital region of the skull (the ring area described).
That's what killed all 4 drivers.
>Earnhardt's head injuries are a classic "ring fracture" of the skull and other
>than the perforation of two layers of the brain covering and the attendant
>bleeding thereof; there is very little injuries to the grey or white matter of
>his brain according to the autopsy narrative.
>
>Trying to lump Earnhardt's injuries as similar to others that have died of
>these fractures is suspect at best because of the "variances" in ways that
>basal skull fractures are described.
A BSF injures the brain stem, the area that controls the body's basic functions -- breathing,
heartbeat, etc. When the skull comes apart, it puts forward pressure on that area. That's a BSF.
That's what killed all 4 drivers.
Ms.Goodwrench RDE 1951-2001
Go back to bed America; your government is in control. - Bill Hicks
KINGCIGAR
breathing, heatbeat and lead to near instant death.
However,
My point was and still is that there was NO spinal, brainstem, vertabrae
injuries noted in the either
the draft or final autopsy report.
Further the uses of words describing Dale Earnhardt's skull injuries means
different to different people.
BSF, in it's simplest form a crack and/or split anywhere on the rear of the
skull..i.e. basal or rear.
Occipital is simply the location on the lower portion of the skull where the
fracture is at it's lowest point on the
Does not always occur along suture lines athough it can.
The ring fracture is in the lower left occipital region and extending up and
over the ear to nearly the temple areas bilaterally (on both sides) Not only
that but extends thru the "floor" of the skull proper.
I'm not a medical expert...but these findings have been verified by several
medical professionals.
Another interesting point in the autopsy over and above NO spine, neck,
brainstem, grey/white matter, swelling in the front of the brain, major blood
vessel damage etc. is that the only contusions or bruises are on the left and
right sides of the head in the rear and NOT ON TOP as the Dr. Myers report so
said.
BUT...didn't address the "flattening" of the brain in the lower left area
Another interesting point is that no neck muscles appeared torn, strained,
herniated etc..
After the accident in California with Ward Burton where the neck muscles were
shown to be injured by X-ray.
Doesn't it seem inconsistant that, IF, Dale Earnhardt died solely from the
"whipping action" of the head "foward and to the right" AND that there is NO
damage to his neck muscles viewed and noted in the autopsy reports and even
more telling...NO SWELLING to the front of his brain itself?
CLASSIC seperation of the spinal cord to brainstem and/or the cutting or
severing of the spine by the skull bones and/or vertabrae was NOT at work in
any fashion that can be discerned from the Dale Earnhardt autopsy report to the
best of my reading and others as well.
Again I'm not an doctor. But I have researched with the help of medical
people, the autopsy narrative..
The semantics of the word used in this case are critical...very loose it
appears from my vantage point.
Finally in light of the above.
The autopsy says cause of death was "blunt force trauma".
If EARNHARDT's head only "whipped forward and to the right" and no part of the
car hit the rear of his head OR his head hit any portion of the car to the
rear.
How can you have "blunt force trauma?
This is simply an observation of medical people I have spoken with.
Yours in racing,
R.K. Brown
Wayne Mann
I just looked at my picture that is looking into the car, with
Dale seated in it, from the right side window.
For his chin to hit the steering wheel it would have had to
travel about two feet. He did set way back and low down in the car.
In fact if he extended his feet straight out, they would barely be
under the dash. His steering wheel is extended out so that the top is
in direct line between the bottom of the windshield and his nose.
He did not set up close to the steering wheel like some
drivers, Richard Petty as an example. In fact he appears to set
father from it than anyone else. His elbow is about even with his
chest so the arm from the elbow down was the distance from his chest
to the steering wheel.
For his chin to hit the steering wheel, I can't see how that
would have been possible unless the seat belt completely separated and
he turned sideways and went forward close to two feet, and I KNOW no
one, leaves that much slack in the belts or even close.
Was the belt completely separated into two pieces or was it
still connected some, if so how much maximum stretch could there have
been.
\\/ayne //\ann
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution,
nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively,
or to the people.
-- 10th Amendment to Constitution
scroob
sit back in a chair at about the same angle Dale sat in his car
(low, leaning back) and then snap your head forward... what does
your chin hit? your chest..
if you sat up higher/straighter, your upper body is more likely
to move forward as a unit.. sitting low/half prone as Dale did,
the head, by itself, wants to snap forward
think of that happening at 180 MPH..
Dale had a broken sternum and numerous broken ribs.. possibly
caused by the belts.. possibly caused by a violent twisting
motion of his body if the left side belt was broken
anyone see the pic of the interior of his car that was published?
the visible blood was around the gearshift and to the right of
the driver's seat.. just what you'd expect if the belt was
broken, and Dale was violently thrown/twisted to his right
not making assumptions.. just food for thought
Wayne Mann <tp...@charter.net> wrote in
<kgemftkmb0dnvjosr...@4ax.com>:
Jim Rapp
"scroob" <no...@none.com> wrote in message news:Xns909FAE4...@216.102.43.227...
> sitting low in the car could cause a number of things..
>
> sit back in a chair at about the same angle Dale sat in his car
> (low, leaning back) and then snap your head forward... what does
> your chin hit? your chest..
>
> if you sat up higher/straighter, your upper body is more likely
> to move forward as a unit.. sitting low/half prone as Dale did,
> the head, by itself, wants to snap forward
>
> think of that happening at 180 MPH..
>
> Dale had a broken sternum and numerous broken ribs.. possibly
> caused by the belts.. possibly caused by a violent twisting
> motion of his body if the left side belt was broken
>
> anyone see the pic of the interior of his car that was published?
Yeah. I still have it.....but I didn't think it was much blood at all.
I mena with people working in the car you think it would have gotten
smeared around. It wasn't very much. Considering hopw a BSF
was described and how bloody it supposedly is it didn't look
like much to me.
--
Humor. Don't Leave home without it!
Rappy's Racin' Screensavers
http://www.rappy.net
Mike Marlow
"Jim Rapp" <ra...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:9djgb1$ldo$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
>
> Yeah. I still have it.....but I didn't think it was much blood at all.
> I mena with people working in the car you think it would have gotten
> smeared around. It wasn't very much. Considering hopw a BSF
> was described and how bloody it supposedly is it didn't look
> like much to me.
>
It's not a lot of blood Jim. Not like a cut. It's a hemorrhage that finds
its way outside of the body through the already mentioned places. Very
often, if not even usually, just small trickles, not unlike a bloody nose.
-Mike-
mike....@usa.net
Jim Rapp
"Mike Marlow" <mike....@usa.net> wrote in message
news:PGcL6.236$Dg5....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
My bad. From what i had read (or myabe the memory is going) I
thought it was common for a good deal of blood to come out the ears and nose.
scroob
it, which was in the gearshift area.. this indicates that Dale
must have been slumped over to the right.. and the question i
asked was - does this support the broken belt idea?
"Jim Rapp" <ra...@erols.com> wrote in
<9djmue$lda$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>:
Jim Rapp
"scroob" <no...@none.com> wrote in message news:Xns909F6D66...@216.102.43.227...
> i wasn't commenting about the amount of blood but the LOCATION of
> it, which was in the gearshift area.. this indicates that Dale
> must have been slumped over to the right.. and the question i
> asked was - does this support the broken belt idea?
Blood on the wheel. The roll bar.......and the floor.
There was not any on the gearshift.
The steering whell IS broken. BUT.....don't jump to the conclusion
that it was done by his body. Dale jr' did the same things
with just his hands. he showed the wheel in a program i saw on MTV.
Paul D.
of a BSF...like pouring it out of a bucket. Did you see the footage of that
politician that shot himself through the mouth on live TV? I'd say that's a
BSF in a roundabout way..I didn't know there was that much blood in a human
body. It just POURED out.
Jim Rapp <ra...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:9djmue$lda$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Mike Marlow
amounts of blood. My training all said it was a small amount of blood.
From the first hand experience department, I have had to look inside the
ears for evidence of blood and CSF which are the classic indicators, as
there was not always even a flow out of the ear.
It would be quite different than a gunshot wound though. Gunshot - big
damage. The pics I saw of DE's car did not show a lot of blood - just some
spots. Maybe I didn't see the same pics as you. The amount I saw would be
what I would have expected from my own experiences and from the training I'd
received (too long ago).
Think about the last bloody nose you got. It probably bled enough to make a
nasty mess on your shirt and on things around you. In actuality, you
probably didn't bleed more than a teaspoon or two - unless the 800 pound
gorilla is the one that gave you the bloody nose.
-Mike-
mike....@usa.net
"Alan Jones" <ala...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:882rftc2fuui82031...@4ax.com...
>
> Youre exactly right Paul. Thats the same opinion Ive read in
> articles and heard elsewhere in this group.
> ___
> (if I dont answer, youve been filtered)
> - "Man, the flames on that 24 car was... smokin' !!"
> www.jalanjones.com/nascar
>
Jim Rapp
>
> The article I read was about the 49-50 year old guy who got
> killed at a Nascar type training facility and then also someone
> posted a graphic description of much blood, over in the mod
> group. Hell, Im not and never have been a EMT, I just know what
> I read.(and that crappy is usually wrong) (heheh-heh)
Just can't let it rest can you? ;-)
--
The record Of Alan Jones aka twenty-four
http://www.rappy.net/Anal_Alan.htm
Who's wrong?