The Hall of Fame is now officially a joke

[bob.p...@gmail.com]

Wendell Scott? Really??

Won a grand total of one little race and spent his entire career as a
backmarker. Yeah, those are really Hall of Fame numbers. Good grief.

[Pete Zahria]

Not going to bother to look it up this is so ridiculous,
but I think he only had ONE lead lap finish... the race he won..
and it was controversial...

Hopefully Michael Waltrip will make it next.



--
Dan

Confuscious say:
Man who run behind car get exhausted.

[bob.p...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 8:30:02 PM UTC-4, Pete Zahria wrote:

> In article <68483786-3622-4d27...@googlegroups.com>, bob.paxton wrote:
>
> >Wendell Scott? Really??
>
> >Won a grand total of one little race and spent his entire career as a
> >backmarker. Yeah, those are really Hall of Fame numbers. Good grief.
>
>
>
> Not going to bother to look it up this is so ridiculous,
> but I think he only had ONE lead lap finish... the race he won..>
> and it was controversial...>
>
> Hopefully Michael Waltrip will make it next.
>

Heck, let's really do this right and induct E.J. Trivette, Friday Hassler,
Neil Castles, Frank Warren, J.D. McDuffie, John Sears, Jocko Maggiacomo,
Cecil Gordon, Tighe Scott, Jabe Thomas, Buddy Arrington, Raymond Williams,
Dr. Don Tarr, Tommy Gale, Roy Mayne, Elmo Langley, Bill Champion, Bill Seifert,
Dick May, Roy Tyner, Bill Dennis and Jody Ridley.

Oh yeah, if you're looking for "trailblazers", gotta have Janet Guthrie,
Patty Moise, Shawna Robinson and Earl Ross.

Heck fire, let's just induct everyone who has ever strapped into a Grand
National / Cup car. After all, political correctness dictates that we never
hurt anyone's feelings or make them feel bad about themselves. Getting left
out of the Hall may crush someone's self esteem.

I did look it up and you're right. Scott had 495 starts and ran 102,435 laps.
He led a grand total of 27 of those 102,435 laps and had exactly one lead lap
finish in those 495 starts. (Source: racing-reference.info)

Real Hall of Fame numbers there. Right alongside fellow Hall of Famers Richard
Petty, David Pearson, Cale Yarborough, Bobby Allison and Darrell Waltrip.

What a travesty.

[John McCoy]

bob.p...@gmail.com wrote in news:68483786-3622-4d27-88ec-e5ebd489b230
@googlegroups.com:

> Wendell Scott? Really??
>
> Won a grand total of one little race and spent his entire career as a
> backmarker. Yeah, those are really Hall of Fame numbers. Good grief.

The sad thing is a bunch of people will say it's not about
race, but about being a trailblazer and overcoming adversity
and setting an example and opening doors for others - happily
ignoring that all those things happened because of Scott's
race.

John

[Pete Zahria]

In article John McCoy <igo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>The sad thing is a bunch of people will say it's not about
>race, but about being a trailblazer and overcoming adversity
>and setting an example and opening doors for others - happily
>ignoring that all those things happened because of Scott's
>race.
>
>John

When you look at someone like Jackie Robinson, he did open doors.
And he was GOOD.
Judging from the minority participation in NASCAR racing,
it appears that maybe the door got opened.. part way..
but nobody entered..

This was about race, and nothing else.
Perhaps to please some of the more vocal minority leaders.
Certainly not because of the huge influx of minority drivers,
or the successes of the inducted trailblazer...

[a425couple]

"Pete Zahria" <petez...@nospam.com> wrote in message...

> bob.p...@gmail.com wrote:
>>Wendell Scott? Really??
>>Won a grand total of one little race and spent his entire career as a
>>backmarker. Yeah, those are really Hall of Fame numbers. Good grief.
>
> Not going to bother to look it up this is so ridiculous,
> but I think he only had ONE lead lap finish... the race he won..
> and it was controversial...

I disagree with you all.
NASCAR is a business which must take steps to improve
it's future. The business is funded by fans and sponsors
that pay to advertise to fans.
The current demographics of the fan base are not going to
increase as much as the population. * NASCAR must increase
it's appeal to minorities.
NASCAR has blatently discriminated in the past. It will not
succeed in marketing to minorities unless it shows by real steps
that it is willing to change.

*
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/whites-will-soon-be-a-minority-of-the-u-s-population/
For the first time, America's racial and ethnic minorities now make up about
half of the under-5 age group, the government said Thursday. It's a historic
shift that shows how young people are at the forefront of sweeping changes
by race and class.
The new census estimates, a snapshot of the U.S. population as of July 2012,
comes a year after the Census Bureau reported that whites had fallen to a
minority among babies. Fueled by immigration and high rates of birth,
particularly among Hispanics, racial and ethnic minorities are now growing
more rapidly in numbers than whites.

[John McCoy]

"a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:lllo4...@news6.newsguy.com:

> I disagree with you all.
> NASCAR is a business which must take steps to improve
> it's future. The business is funded by fans and sponsors
> that pay to advertise to fans.
> The current demographics of the fan base are not going to
> increase as much as the population. * NASCAR must increase
> it's appeal to minorities.
> NASCAR has blatently discriminated in the past. It will not
> succeed in marketing to minorities unless it shows by real steps
> that it is willing to change.

But does this actually help? I mean, NASCAR's press release
says "Wendell Scott, who had 147 top ten finishes in at 13
year career", not "Wendell Scott, who battled racism and
segregation for 13 years". I don't think trying to make
Scott into something he's not (to wit, a great driver) helps
to show minorities things have changed.

John

[a425couple]

"John McCoy" <igo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message...
> "a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote in

>> I disagree with you all.
>> NASCAR is a business which must take steps to improve
>> it's future. The business is funded by fans and sponsors
>> that pay to advertise to fans.
>> The current demographics of the fan base are not going to
>> increase as much as the population. * NASCAR must increase
>> it's appeal to minorities.
>> NASCAR has blatently discriminated in the past. It will not
>> succeed in marketing to minorities unless it shows by real steps
>> that it is willing to change.
>
> But does this actually help?

#1, I do not know. But I think it is probably just one decent step.

#2, here is someone who thinks "this is significant"
(and a couple of his sentences).
http://www.chicagonow.com/vociferous-envoy/2014/05/wendell-scott-has-been-elected-to-nascars-hall-of-fame/
Wendell Scott Has Been Elected To NASCAR's Hall Of Fame
By Charles W. Johnson, Wednesday at 10:38 pm
Today Wendell Scott was elected into the NASCAR Hall Of Fame, yes the 1960's
and 70's trailblazing African American racer is now posthumously honored in
the hallowed halls with NASCAR's finest in Charlotte North Carolina. Though
there was already a small exhibit about him, now he has truly been elected
by his peers as one of the greatest.

I have to sit back and reflect on that, I understand its 2014 and we are in
the second decade of NASCAR's "Drive to Diversity" program but as a lifelong
fan of NASCAR (who happens to be African American), this is significant.

Last fall NASCAR Camping World Truck driver Darrell "Bubba" Wallace Jr. was
the first African American to win a NASCAR race (on any level), since
Wendell Scott when he won the Richmond race that was in the backyard of the
late Wendell Scott. And the significance and location of the win wasn't lost
on Bubba, in his post race comments he praised Wendell and path he laid. --

I know for some people we should be in a post racial society (where we are
truly judged as Dr King said "By the content of our character and not the
color of our skin"), with a African American man well in into his second
term at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave but for those of us who know the history, the
struggle and hard road that men like Wendell drove though, it's just beyond
righteous when they get their due.---

Though I can say in the last six years that I've personally attended NASCAR
races, the crowds are becoming more diverse and not just African Americans
are in the stands, all minorities are coming out to the track to enjoy the
races. And on the track there are other minorities---

So today it's great to know that one of the first men of color to strap in a
NASCAR and race (and win), will be now be honored with greatest that ever
participated in this excellent sport.----

[bob.p...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, May 22, 2014 5:00:03 PM UTC-4, a425couple wrote:
> "Pete Zahria" <petez...@nospam.com> wrote in message...

>

> I disagree with you all.
> NASCAR is a business which must take steps to improve
> it's future. The business is funded by fans and sponsors
> that pay to advertise to fans.
> The current demographics of the fan base are not going to
> increase as much as the population. * NASCAR must increase
> it's appeal to minorities.
>

You're probably right about that, but that's not the issue under discussion.
If your argument is "Wendell Scott deserves to be in the Hall of Fame because
it's good for business", then you're missing the point for even having a Hall.

A true Hall of Fame should be reserved for the best of the best, period. To
put anyone in for any other reason is to cheapen the honor bestowed on those
who truly earned their way in.

[Pete Zahria]

In article <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I disagree with you all.
>NASCAR is a business which must take steps to improve
>it's future. The business is funded by fans and sponsors
>that pay to advertise to fans.

But you are NOT disagreeing with us!!
That is exactly what we are talking about.
It was done FOR business, and NOT for the true spirit of
any Hall of Fame!!

I think we all get that NASCAR would LOVE to have
a black winner today, and not rely on the one victory that
happened when no one knew what NASCAR was about,
and there were still 3 bathrooms at gas stations...

[a425couple]

<bob.p...@gmail.com> wrote in message...

> a425couple wrote:
>> "Pete Zahria" <petez...@nospam.com> wrote in message...
>> I disagree with you all.
>> NASCAR is a business which must take steps to improve
>> it's future. The business is funded by fans and sponsors
>> that pay to advertise to fans.
>> The current demographics of the fan base are not going to
>> increase as much as the population. * NASCAR must increase
>> it's appeal to minorities.
>
> You're probably right about that, but that's not the issue under
> discussion.

It looks to me, that the "issue under discussion" is your statement
that "The Hall of Fame is now officially a joke".
I say it is not a "joke".

> If your argument is "Wendell Scott deserves to be in the Hall of Fame
> because
> it's good for business", then you're missing the point for even having a
> Hall.
>
> A true Hall of Fame should be reserved for the best of the best, period.
> To
> put anyone in for any other reason is to cheapen the honor bestowed on
> those
> who truly earned their way in.

#1. What a sweet point of view. Nice.
Perhaps in this cynical day and age, it's a bit naive,
but refreshingly innocent.

So, you seem to feel the true "point for even having a Hall" was
a purely altruistic decision (behavior that shows a desire to help other
people and a lack of selfishness) to spend $160 million to honor people,
and it was unrelated to any business decision making.

#2. You think your view of who has "truly earned their way in"
is better than the judgement of those who voted?
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASCAR_Hall_of_Fame
I see the process is:
"Selection process
Nomination
A 20-member nominating committee chooses nominees from those who are
eligible. The committee consists of:
Seven NASCAR representatives;
NASCAR Hall of Fame Executive Director Winston Kelley;
NASCAR Hall of Fame Historian;
Track owners (Two each from International Speedway Corporation and
Speedway Motorsports Incorporated, the Hulman family (Indianapolis Motor
Speedway), the Mattioli family (Pocono Raceway), and Dover International
Speedway)
Four track owners from historic short tracks: Bowman-Gray Speedway in
Winston-Salem, N.C.; Greenville-Pickens Speedway in Greenville, S.C.;
Riverhead Raceway in Riverhead, N.Y; and Toyota Speedway at Irwindale in
Irwindale, CA. (While Toyota Speedway opened in 1999, the track is in a
market that has long has NASCAR tracks but many no longer exist.)

Induction
After the nomination committee selects the list of candidates, a total of 48
votes are cast by a voting committee, which consists of the nominating
committee and the following:
14 media representatives: Three each from the National Motorsports Press
Association, the Associated Press Sports Editors and the Eastern Motorsports
Press Association; one each from current media rights holders Fox, Turner
Sports (TNT), ESPN/ABC, Motor Racing Network and Performance Racing Network;
One representative each from the current manufacturers - Chevrolet, Ford
and Toyota;
Three retired drivers;
Three retired owners;
Three retired crew chiefs;
Effective 2014, the reigning Sprint Cup Series champion;[7]
One ballot which will represent the results of a nationwide fan vote."

[a425couple]

"Pete Zahria" <petez...@nospam.com> wrote in message...

> <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>I disagree with you all.
>>NASCAR is a business which must take steps to improve
>>it's future. The business is funded by fans and sponsors
>>that pay to advertise to fans.
>
> But you are NOT disagreeing with us!!

Excuse me Pete, but your words have greatly changed
from what I disagreed with.
You did not say that naming Wendell Scott to the HoF
was an improper self serving business decision,
you said, "this is so ridiculous".

> I think we all get that NASCAR would LOVE to have
> a black winner today, and not rely on the one victory that

> happened when no one knew what NASCAR was about, ---

I agree with that part.

[John McCoy]

bob.p...@gmail.com wrote in
news:d80d5355-0dda-4037...@googlegroups.com:

> A true Hall of Fame should be reserved for the best of the best,
> period.

One could argue that a Hall of Fame should be for those who are
famous.

Now, in sports one can be famous in several different ways.
Being "best" in some aspect is obviously a good way to be
famous, but being "first" is also a way to be famous.

My only arguement with putting Scott in is that he's being
presented as being "one of the best", not as being the first
to challenge the racial culture of NASCAR (*).

John

(a425 - if you re-read Bubba's comments, you'll see that he
was recognizing Scott for being first, not best, which is
exactly my point)

[a425couple]

"Pete Zahria" <petez...@nospam.com> wrote in message...

> In article John McCoy <igo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>>The sad thing is ---

>
> When you look at someone like Jackie Robinson, he did open doors.
> And he was GOOD.

Yes, he was. And making it easier to judge, he was in a sport
where reasonable judgements can be made. Can he hit a ball
thrown by the best pitchers? - Yes.

I'll now go further than any of my other posts on this subjects.
Motor sports are more difficult to form remote judgements of,
than baseball. Will supliers even sell him the best products?
The 'favorites' get free or discounted, good equipment and supplies
like gas and tires.

I'm reminded of AJ Foyt and Janet Guthrie.
Plenty criticised her for failing to qualify at Indy in 1976,
and said she / all women were just not able to drive at speeds
needed for Indy competition. These comments angered then
three-time champion A.J. Foyt to the point he had Guthrie perform
a four lap timed practice around the Indianapolis track using his
back up car. Had she been qualifying, she would've done so in ninth.
This prompted Foyt to state that the only reason Guthrie did not qualify
was due to the lack of funds for her team, and not because of her gender."

I am not as confident as you are, that none of the voters in the Hall of
Fame
process, are of the opinion that you are, that Wendell Scott was an inferior
driver.

> Judging from the minority participation in NASCAR racing,
> it appears that maybe the door got opened.. part way..
> but nobody entered..

Well, the door was pushed barely ajar, but various tales tell us
that Scott kept having it slammed on his foot!!
Others can see, and decide this goal is just not worth it.

[bob.p...@gmail.com]

On Friday, May 23, 2014 1:00:02 PM UTC-4, a425couple wrote:

>
> It looks to me, that the "issue under discussion" is your statement
> that "The Hall of Fame is now officially a joke".
> I say it is not a "joke".
>

You're entitled to that opinion, but I think you're wrong. Scott had one lead
lap finish in 495 starts. He led 27 laps out of over 100,000 run.

To say that as a racer he belongs alongside Richard Petty, Dale Earnhardt, Cale
Yarborough, David Pearson, Bobby Allison and Darrell Waltrip is indeed a joke,
and not a very funny one.

>
> #1. What a sweet point of view. Nice.

Condescension noted. Real nice.

> So, you seem to feel the true "point for even having a Hall" was
> a purely altruistic decision (behavior that shows a desire to help other
> people and a lack of selfishness) to spend $160 million to honor people,
> and it was unrelated to any business decision making.

How many players are in the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame because it
was good business to induct someone with a lifetime batting average of .018 or
a lifetime pitching record of 1-494?

How many quarterbacks are in the NFL Hall of Fame whose lifetime pass
completion percentage is .013 and who have thrown more interceptions than
touchdowns?

More to your point, how many black players are enshrined in Canton and
Cooperstown who really sucked at playing the game, but are there solely because
they had to overcome racism and hatred in order to simply make it onto the
field? Let me give you a hint. It's less than the number of such "players"
in NASCAR's Hall of Fame.

> #2. You think your view of who has "truly earned their way in"
> is better than the judgement of those who voted?

I'm well aware of the selection process and the makeup of the voting panel.

I'm also well aware of just how pervasive political correctness has become in
today's society. It's clear to me that that's what got Mr. Scott voted into
the Hall of Fame and I think that's a travesty.

Your mileage may vary.

[Pete Zahria]

In article "a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Excuse me Pete, but your words have greatly changed
>from what I disagreed with.
>You did not say that naming Wendell Scott to the HoF
>was an improper self serving business decision,
>you said, "this is so ridiculous".

continuation is pointless.