Point system comparison
Bob Paxton
using the current NA$CAr system and my Paxton Point System.
To refresh eveyone's memory, this is how PPS works:
First place pays 200 points
Second place pays 160 points
Drop five points per position from second back to 10th
Drop two points per position from 10th back to 30th
31st thru 43rd pays the same points as 30th
Lap leader bonus: There's a pool of 30 points divided proportionally
(and rounded to the nearest point) among the top three lap leaders.
I wish I had time to go back and do the whole season, but for now I've
backed up to Darlington so I've got a comparision over the past three
races. Here's the top 20 in both systems from Darlington thru Loudon:
NA$CAr PPS
1. Ryan Newman 540 Ryan Newman 555
2. Kurt Busch 427 Matt Kenseth 413
3. Jimmie Johnson 410 Jeff Gordon 405
4. Dale Earnhardt Jr. 405 Kurt Busch 398
5. Mark Martin 400 Dale Earnhardt Jr. 376
6. Tony Stewart 385 Tony Stewart 368
7. Bill Elliott 384 Mark Martin 366
8. Jeff Green 382 Jimmie Johnson 364
9. Dale Jarrett 376 Bill Elliott 362
10. Ricky Craven 376 Dale Jarrett 360
11. Matt Kenseth 366 Jeff Green 359
12. Jeff Gordon 349 Ricky Craven 350
13. Ricky Rudd 346 Ward Burton 350
14. Ward Burton 346 Sterling Marlin 340
15. Bobby Labonte 340 Bobby Labonte 335
16. Jeremy Mayfield 328 Ricky Rudd 331
17. Kenny Wallace 323 Johnny Benson 318
18. Rusty Wallace 321 Jeremy Mayfield 312
19. Robby Gordon 308 Rusty Wallace 308
20. Dave Blaney 302 Kenny Wallace 306
Surprise, surprise. The drivers who won the past three races are at
the top of the PPS standings in spite of a 40th place finish for Jeff
Gordon at Richmond and a 37th place finish for Kenseth at Darlington.
If you folks really want to see it, I'll post the comparison after
every race thru the end of the season, and I'll back up beyond
Darlington as time permits to get a better comparison over a longer
period.
Somebody
"Bob Paxton" <redgr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fa1fcd68.02091...@posting.google.com...
> I've set up a spreadsheet that will let me compare the point standings
> using the current NA$CAr system and my Paxton Point System.
Bob, I really, really don't like to say this, but we're all going to get the
most out of it if you go back to the start of the year...
A fearsome amount of work... but I'm quite interested to see how it all
looks...
-Russ.
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
some...@nospam.russdoucet.com ("Somebody") wrote:
>Bob, I really, really don't like to say this, but we're all going to get the
>most out of it if you go back to the start of the year...
OK, I'll say it: Bob, you've got to keep on doing this until you've
got a whole season to compare to a whole season. :-P
(I don't mind assigning other people work. I'm a teacher.
Don't try this at home.)
>A fearsome amount of work... but I'm quite interested to see how it all
>looks...
Yes. It's exactly the kind of comparison that has to be done with
all of the proposed formulas. All we need is a complete database
of all race results for (say) ten years, plus, of course, a
synopsis of each race that would distinguish between leaders
under yellow and leaders under green. :-O
I would do it myself, but I'm too busy building and flying model
airplanes in my non-rasnm existence. ;o)
Marty
Cindy Murray
this one. Of course that's too much work to expect from anyone..... But it
sure would be interesting!
--
Cindy Murray
Crochet, scouting, NASCAR, and genealogy
http://home.attbi.com/~cindym3
Bob Paxton
> I wouldn't mind seeing the results that compared the last FEW years, not just
> this one. Of course that's too much work to expect from anyone..... But it
> sure would be interesting!
Yeah I know the three-race comparison I started with is nowhere near
comprehensive enough to draw any conclusions about the relative merit
of the two systems.
As we speak, I'm working on going back to the first of the year and
putting the whole season into the spreadsheet. If I'm lucky, that can
be completed in a couple weeks. One problem I'm having, though, is
that not all the race results posted on thatsracin.com have the lap
leaders listed. nascar.com's doesn't have lap leaders on any of their
result pages. Hopefully I'll be able to find them all somewhere.
I doubt I'll be able to re-do any years prior to this one for that
same reason.
Bob
Somebody
all the races in the previous season. I'll see if I can dig it up.
If you want.
-Russ.
"Bob Paxton" <redgr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fa1fcd68.0209...@posting.google.com...
Cindy Murray
them....
Somebody wrote:
--
Jim Horne
if a driver has a DNF he don't deserve as many points for finishing last as
the guy that got wrecked through no fault of his own but finished 32nd,
still running and only a few laps down. in a 200 lap race and finishing 5
laps down should be worth more points than only completing 10 laps and
finishing last!
Jim
"Bob Paxton" <redgr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fa1fcd68.02091...@posting.google.com...
: I've set up a spreadsheet that will let me compare the point standings
:
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
Horne") wrote:
>Bob, I think I've seen this or something similar before. I still contend
>if a driver has a DNF he don't deserve as many points for finishing last as
>the guy that got wrecked through no fault of his own but finished 32nd,
>still running and only a few laps down. in a 200 lap race and finishing 5
>laps down should be worth more points than only completing 10 laps and
>finishing last!
I think I'm with Jim on this one.
Essentially, the flat payout system for 31 to 43 would probably
persuade the guys at the tail end to stop racing. What benefit
is there in it for them? OK, maybe a few bucks and perhaps
some air time, but it won't make any difference for the season,
so get off the track and get out of the area before the
crowds hit the road.
With a difference in points all the way down to the bottom,
there is an extra motivation to stay and race somebody.
That adds to the on-track excitement, at least to my taste.
Marty
Bob Paxton
> I'm pretty sure the last press guide I had included lap leader numbers for
> all the races in the previous season. I'll see if I can dig it up.
>
> If you want.
I'm not sure I'm up to tackling the previous season, but I've
discovered I'm not as bad off as I thought for this season. The only
races where thatsracin.com doesn't give the lap leaders are the
Daytona 500, the spring Darlington race and the spring Talladega race.
If I can find the lap leader breakdown for those races (and green vs.
yellow laps is immaterial), I think I can have this season evaluated
in PPS by early next week.
I've actually gotten a good chunk of this season entered already and
I'm somewhat surprised at who's on top so far and how big his lead
is.....
Bob
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
Paxton) wrote:
> ... I've actually gotten a good chunk of this season entered already and
>I'm somewhat surprised at who's on top so far and how big his lead
>is.....
It'll be fun to see how your system works for a whole season.
Thanks for the research you're doing on it.
At the end, you can crown your own champion, too! Why should
the big dogs have all the fun? ;o)
Marty
Bob Paxton
I certainly agree that wrecking on the first lap and finishing last is
a decidedly inferior performance to running 195 laps of a 200 lap race
and finishing 32nd. The fact of the matter is that there is no
perfect point system. You can find a situation to make ANY system
look unfair and you've hit on the one that makes a case against mine.
However, my eye was on the reality that a single disastrous finish in
the current system wipes out WEEKS of superior effort. If I remember
my numbers correctly, finishing sixth four weeks in a row and leading
just one lap under caution in the process nets more points than
winning AND leading the most laps three weeks in a row, but being in
the wrong place at the wrong time in week four and getting an early
DNF.
Obviously, opinions will differ, but I see that as a greater injustice
in the overall scheme of determining a season champion than giving the
32nd and 43rd place finishers the same points in the same race.
Hence, the Point System According to Paxton seeks to soften the blow
of a DNF. I think a by-product of this is that it would keep more
drivers in legitimate contention for the title.
I'll admit to having no interest in and no knowledge of F1 racing
beyond the fact that over there they only pay points to the first six
finishers. Perhaps someone with more expertise than I can address
this question, but I don't believe the F1 drivers from say 10th on
back just give up, pull off the track and go home early because there
are no points to be gained by racing somebody and taking a position.
Do they?
I'm sure that among a crowd of 100,000+ spectators, there will be some
who are following that battle for 34th place, but I'd be willing to
bet my Jack Greene records that the "added on-track excitement" you
mentioned goes largely unnoticed. I also believe that points or no
points, those guys back there would still race each other. It's in
their blood. It's what they do.
Bob
David 22
Yes only the top 6 positions pay points (10, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1
respectively).
Nascar is big money. F-1 is H-U-G-E money. It's all about exposure for
the manufacturers and sponsors. That's why guys who are out of the
points keep racing, Also, no team wants to be labelled a quitter (the
European press gets paticularly nasty about that sort of thing)
Deven Atkinson
>
>I'll admit to having no interest in and no knowledge of F1 racing
>beyond the fact that over there they only pay points to the first six
>finishers. Perhaps someone with more expertise than I can address
>this question, but I don't believe the F1 drivers from say 10th on
>back just give up, pull off the track and go home early because there
>are no points to be gained by racing somebody and taking a position.
>Do they?
>
>I'm sure that among a crowd of 100,000+ spectators, there will be some
>who are following that battle for 34th place, but I'd be willing to
>bet my Jack Greene records that the "added on-track excitement" you
>mentioned goes largely unnoticed. I also believe that points or no
>points, those guys back there would still race each other. It's in
>their blood. It's what they do.
>
It is what they do. Sometimes the best "racing" is between back markers.
That is true for Cup as well as F1.
In F1, because there can be a high attrition rate on any given day, it is
possible for the back markers to end up in 5th or 6th place, just because
they are still rolling at the end. Last year (or was that 2000?) there was
a huge first corner crash at Monza that took many cars out, and only five
were still running at the end. Still with 20-22 cars starting each race,
the backmarkers for the most part are racing for exposure of sponsors, and
braging rights. Last week (I think) the Minardi team ( the Hermie Sadler
or Morgan Shepard of Winston Cup this year) out placed both the Williams
team cars (the Hendricks or Roush of Winston Cup) yet still scored no
points.
And before someone new here starts to wonder, I like "ALL" forms of motor
racing. I even liked watching the Lawn Mower races that are run in Lisle,
IL.
Deven Atkinson de...@bright.net
--
Penny Lane Numismatic - Categorized Web Links
http://www.bright.net/~deven/pennylane.htm
ANA Member #1197707
Somebody
"Deven Atkinson" <de...@bright.net> wrote in message
news:6mZi9.9723$pv6.1...@cletus.bright.net...
LOL! Lawn mower races are great fun to watch. Silly fun, but still fun.
Along the same lines in between heats in the demolition derby around here
they run a race with 4 cylinder cars in a figure 8 around two barrels in
front of the grandstand... full contact. It's a hoot, I have to try it one
of these days.
In either style, you can always bet there will be a number 3 and a number 24
somewhere in the group.
-Russ.
Dave Casey
> back just give up, pull off the track and go home early because there
> are no points to be gained by racing somebody and taking a position.
> Do they?
It's kind of hard to tell with half the field going out with mechanical
failure. Did he really have a gearbox problem or did he just decide to give
up? Hmmmm? Makes one wonder.
--
Dave Casey, REALTOR
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