Champ Car engines: Air or water cooled?
Being, Prefect
According to the wise men of ras.indy?
-joe-
John Clarke
Being, Prefect <petrol...@hotmail.com.snipthisbitherepleasethankyou> wrote:
>According to Indycar 2, the latter.
>
>According to the wise men of ras.indy?
I don't know about the wise men, but I'll tell you water cooled. They
have tons of heat (I think about 70% of fuel is wasted through either
the tailpipe or heat) to get rid of and use a high capacity water pump
mounted down low on the engine.
John
Tigger899
Greg.
Lloyd Curtis
Call the ball
Carey Akin
Being, Prefect <petrol...@hotmail.com.snipthisbitherepleasethankyou>
wrote in message news:37dfbbd...@news.virgin.net...
> According to Indycar 2, the latter.
>
> According to the wise men of ras.indy?
>
>
Are you serious?
Carey in Pearland
Roy W. Forgy
On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 15:31:57 GMT,
petrol...@hotmail.com.snipthisbitherepleasethankyou (Being,
pa...@intcomm.net
>
>Being, Prefect <petrol...@hotmail.com.snipthisbitherepleasethankyou>
>wrote in message news:37dfbbd...@news.virgin.net...
>>
>> According to the wise men of ras.indy?
>>
He can't be, can he ???
Perhaps he was just mistaken, or it was a typo, or ...
instead of him "Being Prefect" ...
Allan
Dillon Pyron
>
> Being, Prefect <petrol...@hotmail.com.snipthisbitherepleasethankyou>
> wrote in message news:37dfbbd...@news.virgin.net...
> > According to Indycar 2, the latter.
> >
> > According to the wise men of ras.indy?
> >
> >
>
> Are you serious?
>
> Carey in Pearland
I think so. Of course, it is possible that VW will be introducing a
flat 8 air cooled engine. But it's also possible that the moon is made
of green cheese.
--
Dillon Pyron dmp...@sprintparanet.com
bonnie & toby
molly & ivan at the bridge
When we walk to the edge of all the light we have and take a step
into the darkness of the unknown, we must believe that one of two
things will happen. There will be something solid for us to stand on
or we will be taugth to fly.
- Patrick Overton
Support Corgi rescue http://www.corgiaid.org
Leah Pagan Olivarri
Good to see you about again...
Regards,
Leah
Dillon Pyron wrote in message
<37DFF0DC...@austin.rr.com>...
Carey Akin
Dillon Pyron <dmp...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:37DFF0DC...@austin.rr.com...
: Carey Akin wrote:
: >
: > Being, Prefect <petrol...@hotmail.com.snipthisbitherepleasethankyou>
: > wrote in message news:37dfbbd...@news.virgin.net...
: > > According to Indycar 2, the latter.
: > >
: > > According to the wise men of ras.indy?
: > >
: > >
: > > -joe-
: >
: > Are you serious?
: >
: > Carey in Pearland
:
: I think so. Of course, it is possible that VW will be introducing a
: flat 8 air cooled engine. But it's also possible that the moon is made
: of green cheese.
I was questioning the question more than the answer. . . . .
Carey in Pearland
ShirelleP
Michael
Tigger899 <tigg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990915123437...@ng-fr1.aol.com...
ShirelleP
then again don't know much about the mechanical side just enjoy the racing
8o)
Sean Clare
pure water used in cooling or (more likely IMO) some type of coolant
such as ethelyne glycol (Dex-cool or the like) mixed with water?
50/50% mix?
Sean
tjmc
wrote:
>Actually this question could be salvaged. Does anyone know if it is
>pure water used in cooling or (more likely IMO) some type of coolant
>such as ethelyne glycol (Dex-cool or the like) mixed with water?
>50/50% mix?
Don't know about champ cars but I do know in NASCAR they run pure water.
The explanation I heard was if the rad or hoses let go on a car the
water was not as slick as antifreeze for the trailing cars.
Jason Scott
>
> Actually this question could be salvaged. Does anyone know if it is
> pure water used in cooling or (more likely IMO) some type of coolant
> such as ethelyne glycol (Dex-cool or the like) mixed with water?
> 50/50% mix?
Pure water plus lubricants/wetters I do believe. Pure water having
superior heat transfer qualities.
-JScott
An avenging god before heathen infidels
Prefect Being
>>On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 12:17:50 -0500, "Carey Akin" <ca...@rushjohnson.com> wrote:
>>
>>Being, Prefect <petrol...@hotmail.com.snipthisbitherepleasethankyou>
>>wrote in message news:37dfbbd...@news.virgin.net...
>>> According to Indycar 2, the latter.
>>>
>>> According to the wise men of ras.indy?
>>>
>>Are you serious?
>
>
>He can't be, can he ???
I was lead to believe F1 engines are air cooled. No liquid.
>Perhaps he was just mistaken, or it was a typo, or ...
>
>instead of him "Being Prefect" ...
Ahem. It's "Being, Prefect". As in "Pants, Hot".
>Allan
-joe-
Don Stauffer
engine (not including spec series such as legends and
mini/micro-sprints). And even they caved in and went water cooled.
Of course, there were the fabulous Ranger powered sprint cars. For a
look at one follow the IMCA Old Timer links on my web site, and that
page has a link to the Lake Ranger.
Being, Prefect wrote:
> According to Indycar 2, the latter.
>
> According to the wise men of ras.indy?
>
> -joe-
--
Don Stauffer in Minneapolis
stau...@gte.net
http://home1.gte.net/stauffer/
Tom Hiett
> According to Indycar 2, the latter.
>
> According to the wise men of ras.indy?
Current day "Champcars" which Indycar 2 would represent,
are water cooled.
Depending on what all fell under that description before CART there
were a few exceptions. There was a car entered at Indy one year
with two aircooled Porsche 4 cam engines that didn't make the race.
Not positive but pretty sure the ill fated Interscope Porsche
from 1979 was aircooled with watercooled heads. Along in the 80s
air cooled engines were considered to have reached their
thermal limit of development and Porsche went water cooled on
new designs for race cars (although the 993, the last aircooled
version of the 911, was successful in lower classes until recently).
Someone will undoubtably jump in here and say they were actually
oil cooled, which in a sense is also true.
Then there were the Turbines....
Tom
--
Tom Hiett e-mail: thi...@iastate.edu
Designer-Illustrator-Modeler Iowa State University
Check out my vintage race pics at:
www.public.iastate.edu/~thiett
Tigger899
>Michael
Your right! Sorry about that.
Russell Jaslow
: On Thu, 16 Sep 1999 01:41:59 GMT, tirmi...@geocities.com (Sean Clare)
: wrote:
: >Actually this question could be salvaged. Does anyone know if it is
: >pure water used in cooling or (more likely IMO) some type of coolant
: >such as ethelyne glycol (Dex-cool or the like) mixed with water?
: >50/50% mix?
: Don't know about champ cars but I do know in NASCAR they run pure water.
: The explanation I heard was if the rad or hoses let go on a car the
: water was not as slick as antifreeze for the trailing cars.
This is true. Race cars are discouraged from using anything but water
for this very reason. Some of us lazy amateur racers use a mixture since
we store the cars in the winter and don't drain them.
Rus'L
---
NOTE -- Remove ekfido.
---
Russell Jaslow | http://www.DeepThrottle.com/ |My employer
jas...@eznet.net | |has nothing
Spec Racer Ford #33| http://www.DeepThrottle.com/Fun/ |to do with
Finger Lakes Region| http://www.DeepThrottle.com/History/ |my drivel.
Michael Stucker
>
>I believe Porche, years ago, was the last holdout with an aircooled race
>engine (not including spec series such as legends and
>mini/micro-sprints). And even they caved in and went water cooled.
Porsche quit using air-cooled engines in their racers (except 911s) about 20
years ago. And, of course, the last air-cooled street Porsche is now gone,
too.
(Note: Those 911s were really oil-cooled, not air-cooled. My friend's used
12 quarts of oil on each oil change!)
--
Michael Stucker | Schlumberger Oilfield Services, Sugar Land, Texas
stucker@$sugar-land.spc.slb.com (remove "$") | Not Schlumberger's opinion
www.flash.net/~cstucker | Copyright Michael J. Stucker 1999
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
See a history of Can-Am racing at web-hou.iapc.net/~smh/articles.html#auto
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eagles may soar, but weasels don`t get sucked into jet engines.
pa...@intcomm.net
>
>I was lead to believe F1 engines are air cooled. No liquid.
Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but ...
Every engine currently in use in F-1 (and every one in just over
thirty years, since Honda tried to qualify an air-cooled V-8 at the
French GP in the late sixties. Unfortunately a driver was killed in
the car in practice, design was scrubbed, and they went on with their
liquid cooled V-12) is liquid cooled, as are all engines in CART and
the IRL. The last time I heard of an air-cooled engine was when
Porsche and Interscope toyed with the idea back in the seventies.
>>Perhaps he was just mistaken, or it was a typo, or ...
>>
>>instead of him "Being Prefect" ...
>
>Ahem. It's "Being, Prefect". As in "Pants, Hot".
So, then you were mistaken, or it was a typo ...
insteadof you being a "Prefect Being" ???
Allan
Dale Sand
Just for fun the answer to this is yes they are air cooled.
Reason: Water or oil is used in the motor to transfer heat that is
a result of combustion. The liquid inside the motor is then pumped
to a heat exchanger, oil cooler or radiator. The heat exchanger is
then exposed to the air steam allowing air to transfer the heat away
for the car. The cooled fluid is then returned to the motor to continue
the cooling process.
Fredrik B. Knutsen
pa...@intcomm.net wrote:
> >On Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:11:51 GMT, petrol...@hotmail.com.snipthisbitherepleasethankyou (Prefect Being) wrote:
> >
> >I was lead to believe F1 engines are air cooled. No liquid.
>
> Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but ...
>
> Every engine currently in use in F-1 (and every one in just over
> thirty years, since Honda tried to qualify an air-cooled V-8 at the
> French GP in the late sixties. Unfortunately a driver was killed in
> the car in practice,
Not quite. Honda-contracted John Surtees tested it and deemed it not yet race-worthy. Under pressure from Honda
France apparently, Jo Schlesser was
given the drive and he qualified OK. Very early on in the race, entering one of those terrifying down-hill sweepers,
the engine cut and JS lost it, hitting the earth bank sufficiently hard for the car to explode and get consumed in
the subsequent fire.
As a sign of respect, Guy Ligier named all his cars with the chassis type JS in memory of Schlesser, this nice
tradition carrying on until Prost bought the team and named the cars after himself and his ego.
Incidentally, Group C Mercedes star Jean-Louis Schlesser is Jo's nephew....and he named his son Anthony Joseph
presumably in the memory of his nephew as well as some obscure Texan racing driver whose surname escapes me at the
mo :-)
> design was scrubbed,
As was the use of thin-gauge magnesium sheet in chassis fabrication.
> and they went on with their
> liquid cooled V-12) is liquid cooled, as are all engines in CART and
> the IRL. The last time I heard of an air-cooled engine was when
> Porsche and Interscope toyed with the idea back in the seventies.
>
> >>Perhaps he was just mistaken, or it was a typo, or ...
> >>
> >>instead of him "Being Prefect" ...
> >
> >Ahem. It's "Being, Prefect". As in "Pants, Hot".
>
> So, then you were mistaken, or it was a typo ...
>
> insteadof you being a "Prefect Being" ???
>
Ah, but most of the time he posts under the alias of "Confused Being" :-)
Right, folks, off to jolly olde UK and the Goodwood circuit meeting to-morrow.
Take care.
Doc
>
> Allan
--
Doc Fredrik B.Knutsen
Cheek Racing Cars
http://www.cheekracing.electra.no
tom
Hmmmmm. I used to manufacture heat exchangers (radiators) and you are
correct. Oil coolers use cooler oil to cool hotter oil as it circulates
back to the turbo on a diesel engine.
Tom
Prefect Being
>>On Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:11:51 GMT, petrol...@hotmail.com.snipthisbitherepleasethankyou (Prefect Being) wrote:
>>
>>I was lead to believe F1 engines are air cooled. No liquid.
>
>
>Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but ...
>
>Every engine currently in use in F-1 (and every one in just over
>thirty years, since Honda tried to qualify an air-cooled V-8 at the
>French GP in the late sixties. Unfortunately a driver was killed in
>the car in practice, design was scrubbed, and they went on with their
>liquid cooled V-12) is liquid cooled, as are all engines in CART and
>the IRL. The last time I heard of an air-cooled engine was when
>Porsche and Interscope toyed with the idea back in the seventies.
>
>
>>>Perhaps he was just mistaken, or it was a typo, or ...
>>>
>>>instead of him "Being Prefect" ...
>>
>>Ahem. It's "Being, Prefect". As in "Pants, Hot".
>
>
>So, then you were mistaken, or it was a typo ...
>
>insteadof you being a "Prefect Being" ???
As in "Ford Prefect", a fictional character (and an ancient make of
car apparently). Dunno why I entered that originally. Probably just
got a little bit sarcy with the "what is your name" dialog that
Internet software frequently throws at you. :o) Oh yes, and I really,
really would prefer it if my employer didn't know I posted here. :o)
>Allan
-joe-
pa...@intcomm.net
>
>As in "Ford Prefect", a fictional character (and an ancient make of
>car apparently). Dunno why I entered that originally. Probably just
>got a little bit sarcy with the "what is your name" dialog that
>Internet software frequently throws at you. :o) Oh yes, and I really,
>really would prefer it if my employer didn't know I posted here. :o)
"Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy" (or something close ... it was a
long, long time ago ...) or something like that, wasn't it ???
Allan
Tom Hiett
> (Note: Those 911s were really oil-cooled, not air-cooled. My friend's used
> 12 quarts of oil on each oil change!)
Thats as much because its a dry sump as being aircooled. Many
watercooled engines are dry sump and they take unusual quantities
of oil too. I think a Countach takes 27 quarts.
Paul Winalski
>
> "Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy" (or something close ... it was a
> long, long time ago ...) or something like that, wasn't it ???
Exactly right, Allan. He was a researcher for the new edition
of the Guide, and the minimal research he'd done before landing
on Earth told him that "Ford Prefect" would be an inconspicuous
name to adopt. He hitched a ride to Earth and then ended up
getting stuck there for 20 years. He did manage to send off an
updated entry for Earth for the Guide, though. The old edition
merely said "Harmless." After the editors cut down Ford's
voluminous revised entry, the new edition's entry for Earth read
"Mostly harmless."
--PSW
Paul Winalski
>
> According to Indycar 2, the latter.
>
> According to the wise men of ras.indy?
Definitely water-cooled. This is why they let off great
clouds of steam sometimes when the engine lets go, and
why they pour greenish-looking fluid on the track when
they crash. And if you have a tape of the Laguna race,
take a look at the fluids coming out of Vasser's car
after the get-togehter with Moore.
--PSW
Tom Hiett
and whose name has been deleted by those responding before me wrote:
> >Tom Hiett wrote:
> >>
> >> (Being, Prefect) wrote:
> >>
> >> > According to Indycar 2, the latter.
> >> >
> >> > According to the wise men of ras.indy?
> >>
> >> Current day "Champcars" which Indycar 2 would represent,
> >> are water cooled.
> >>
> >> Depending on what all fell under that description before CART there
> >> were a few exceptions. There was a car entered at Indy one year
> >> with two aircooled Porsche 4 cam engines that didn't make the race.
> >> Not positive but pretty sure the ill fated Interscope Porsche
> >> from 1979 was aircooled with watercooled heads. Along in the 80s
> >> air cooled engines were considered to have reached their
> >> thermal limit of development and Porsche went water cooled on
> >> new designs for race cars (although the 993, the last aircooled
> >> version of the 911, was successful in lower classes until recently).
> >>
> >> Someone will undoubtably jump in here and say they were actually
> >> oil cooled, which in a sense is also true.
> >>
> >> Then there were the Turbines....
> > Just for fun the answer to this is yes they are air cooled.
> >
> >Reason: Water or oil is used in the motor to transfer heat that is
> >a result of combustion. The liquid inside the motor is then pumped
> >to a heat exchanger, oil cooler or radiator. The heat exchanger is
> >then exposed to the air steam allowing air to transfer the heat away
> >for the car. The cooled fluid is then returned to the motor to continue
> >the cooling process.
But an aircooled VW or Porsche also has fins on the cylinders (although
some cylinders have finless areas like the 935/78) and heads. A mechanically
driven fan blows air through ducting over these fins to aid in cooling.
Without this, the engines quickly overheats much in the same way a
watercooled engine would if denied water and circulation. Even if the
oil is run through a cooler a large part of the engine is still aircooled,
and water cooled race engines still have oil coolers.
Tom
--
Tom Hiett
Graphic Designer, Iowa State University
Check out my vintage race pics at:
Sean Clare
>>
>> (Being, Prefect) wrote:
>>
>> > According to Indycar 2, the latter.
>> >
>> > According to the wise men of ras.indy?
>>
>> Current day "Champcars" which Indycar 2 would represent,
>> are water cooled.
>>
>> Depending on what all fell under that description before CART there
>> were a few exceptions. There was a car entered at Indy one year
>> with two aircooled Porsche 4 cam engines that didn't make the race.
>> Not positive but pretty sure the ill fated Interscope Porsche
>> from 1979 was aircooled with watercooled heads. Along in the 80s
>> air cooled engines were considered to have reached their
>> thermal limit of development and Porsche went water cooled on
>> new designs for race cars (although the 993, the last aircooled
>> version of the 911, was successful in lower classes until recently).
>>
>> Someone will undoubtably jump in here and say they were actually
>> oil cooled, which in a sense is also true.
>>
>> Then there were the Turbines....
>>
>> Check out my vintage race pics at:
>
>
>
> Just for fun the answer to this is yes they are air cooled.
>
>Reason: Water or oil is used in the motor to transfer heat that is
>a result of combustion. The liquid inside the motor is then pumped
>to a heat exchanger, oil cooler or radiator. The heat exchanger is
>then exposed to the air steam allowing air to transfer the heat away
>for the car. The cooled fluid is then returned to the motor to continue
>the cooling process.
But then what cools the air? And what cools the thing that cools the
air? And what cools that? . . .
:)
Sean Clare
Jordan Mugen Hm?
Sean
>
>
>pa...@intcomm.net wrote:
>
>> >On Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:11:51 GMT, petrol...@hotmail.com.snipthisbitherepleasethankyou (Prefect Being) wrote:
>> >
>> >I was lead to believe F1 engines are air cooled. No liquid.
>>
>> Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but ...
>>
>> Every engine currently in use in F-1 (and every one in just over
>> thirty years, since Honda tried to qualify an air-cooled V-8 at the
>> French GP in the late sixties. Unfortunately a driver was killed in
>> the car in practice,
>
>Not quite. Honda-contracted John Surtees tested it and deemed it not yet race-worthy. Under pressure from Honda
>France apparently, Jo Schlesser was
>given the drive and he qualified OK. Very early on in the race, entering one of those terrifying down-hill sweepers,
>the engine cut and JS lost it, hitting the earth bank sufficiently hard for the car to explode and get consumed in
>the subsequent fire.
>As a sign of respect, Guy Ligier named all his cars with the chassis type JS in memory of Schlesser, this nice
>tradition carrying on until Prost bought the team and named the cars after himself and his ego.
>Incidentally, Group C Mercedes star Jean-Louis Schlesser is Jo's nephew....and he named his son Anthony Joseph
>presumably in the memory of his nephew as well as some obscure Texan racing driver whose surname escapes me at the
>mo :-)
>
>> design was scrubbed,
>
>As was the use of thin-gauge magnesium sheet in chassis fabrication.
>
>> and they went on with their
>> liquid cooled V-12) is liquid cooled, as are all engines in CART and
>> the IRL. The last time I heard of an air-cooled engine was when
>> Porsche and Interscope toyed with the idea back in the seventies.
>>
>> >>Perhaps he was just mistaken, or it was a typo, or ...
>> >>
>> >>instead of him "Being Prefect" ...
>> >
>> >Ahem. It's "Being, Prefect". As in "Pants, Hot".
>>
>> So, then you were mistaken, or it was a typo ...
>>
>> insteadof you being a "Prefect Being" ???
>>
>
Michael Stucker
>"Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy" (or something close ... it was a
>long, long time ago ...) or something like that, wasn't it ???
>
>Allan
42
Tigger899
>
>Reason: Water or oil is used in the motor to transfer heat that is
>a result of combustion. The liquid inside the motor is then pumped
>to a heat exchanger, oil cooler or radiator.
Then technically, the engine IS fluid cooled. It's the fluid that is air
cooled.
Mark McCauley
>
> Then technically, the engine IS fluid cooled. It's the fluid that is air
> cooled.
But air is a FLUID. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.) :)
Paul Winalski
>
> But then what cools the air? And what cools the thing that cools the
> air? And what cools that? . . .
The air is cooled by radiating infrared photons out into
space. Expansion of the universe results in everything
cooling down slowly over time. Blame it all on entropy.
--PSW
Sean Clare
Convection Diffusion
|
/\
/ \
radiation conduction
Its all a blurr after that ==8-))
Dark 1
> Water. i.e. what was pouring out of Jimmy's car after he got together with
> Greg.
>
>
> Lloyd Curtis
> Call the ball
Perhaps Jimmy had just wet himself. ;-)
Tom Hiett
> Tom Hiett wrote:
> >
> > (Being, Prefect) wrote:
> >
> > > According to Indycar 2, the latter.
> > >
> > > According to the wise men of ras.indy?
> >
> > Current day "Champcars" which Indycar 2 would represent,
> > are water cooled.
> >
> > Depending on what all fell under that description before CART there
> > were a few exceptions. There was a car entered at Indy one year
> > with two aircooled Porsche 4 cam engines that didn't make the race.
> > Not positive but pretty sure the ill fated Interscope Porsche
> > from 1979 was aircooled with watercooled heads. Along in the 80s
> > air cooled engines were considered to have reached their
> > thermal limit of development and Porsche went water cooled on
> > new designs for race cars (although the 993, the last aircooled
> > version of the 911, was successful in lower classes until recently).
> >
> > Someone will undoubtably jump in here and say they were actually
> > oil cooled, which in a sense is also true.
> >
> > Then there were the Turbines....
> Just for fun the answer to this is yes they are air cooled.
>
> Reason: Water or oil is used in the motor to transfer heat that is
> a result of combustion. The liquid inside the motor is then pumped
> to a heat exchanger, oil cooler or radiator. The heat exchanger is
> then exposed to the air steam allowing air to transfer the heat away
> for the car. The cooled fluid is then returned to the motor to continue
> the cooling process.
But the heat is transferred away by water. What happens to the cooling
medium afterwards is secondary.