Just say not to TG

2 views
Skip to first unread message

kiddb...@my-deja.com

unread,
Aug 23, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/23/99
to
If the CART backs down and gives TG 51% and they go to NA engines with
10k rev limiters, then to hell with it. Race watching will no longer be
something I do on Sundays. Time for year long American football!


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Jason Hoehn

unread,
Aug 23, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/23/99
to
no kidding hey? there are more interesting spec racing series out there than
the IRL,....

51% control.... Kiss all of those beautiful roadcourses goodbye, kisss all
of the races abroad goodbye,....
All for indianapolis, its not worth it,....

I hate Tony George and all that he stands for. If he owned 51 percent of
indycars i think I would continue my boycott of all TG related series and
races.. (yes, even the brickyard 400 and of course the USGP) That pretty
much means kissing my Trips to Vancouver goodbye, nixing plans to go to
Portland and fontana, goodbye to those sundays in front of the TV, the
purchasing of sponsors products,....
Do you honestly think that places like Vancouver, Australia, Toronto
surviive? (despite the fact they all get crowds and loyal fans on a level
that the IRl would KILL for?...)

fehhh,... (im getting pissed off just thinking about it,.. talk about
selling your soul to the devil....)

Jason Hoehn

unread,
Aug 23, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/23/99
to
After all of that, of course, it is all just rumours and hearsay, but i felt
like venting on TG for a bit anyways.
(urge to kill fading,.. fading,.. fading,...)

Besides, i was getting kinda bored of the amount of bitchy posts on the
whole Tracy-Andretti "thing" on this NG,.. trying to fan some old fires ;-)
HEY!!! I replied to myself! (talking to yourself is a sign of insanity isn't
it?....)

And now, back to you regularily scheduled TG hate-thread....

\

Ross Stonefeld

unread,
Aug 23, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/23/99
to
Why try to hurt F1 just because you dont like Tony and the IRL?

Ross

Jason Hoehn

unread,
Aug 23, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/23/99
to
Its all part of this giant new philosophy of "money first, sport second"

More money into TG's pocket, and more control blecch... NASCAR is doing fine
with or without my money (or even IMS)
Bernie Yecccchelestone ain't my fave guy either, sort of a euro-TG.
F1 is a too big for its own good, overbearing, money grubbing, elitist and
self important series. As much as the cars are amazing (even with the stupid
FIA rules,) and the drivers are of an amzing skill level, the racing and the
whole culture around f1 is so,.... whats the word Im looking for?,....
bloated. The racing is secondary, and thats what i want to watch, RACING.
The beauty of CART is the racing. NASCAR has some good racing, but is
sliding quickly down that slippery money-slope. F1 is way down there. And
TG's IRL and the indy500 are not about racing but about money and
control,....

Look at this newsgroup, whats one of the biggest things people are talking
about? THE RACING, What happened with Andretti and Tracy, about Montoya's
season, About Greg Moore's lack of a season, about super-sub's season, which
tracks are best, about whats happened (and is going to happen) with Al jr.
sounds like racing talk to me, not money talk.

(if the 51% rumour is true) then its the end of racing in Indycars, and down
that slippery slope of money first, sport second.... nuff said.

Speedy Fast

unread,
Aug 23, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/23/99
to
On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:07:01 -0500, Ross Stonefeld
<intu...@clearlight.com> wrote:

>Why try to hurt F1 just because you dont like Tony and the IRL?

Yeah that's right!

You have other reasons to hurt F1.

Bernie Eccelstone and Max come to mind!


Opinionated but never inundated

unread,
Aug 23, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/23/99
to
>
>You have other reasons to hurt F1.
>
>Bernie Eccelstone and Max come to mind!
>
>

You forgot the butchering of tracks with kiddy chicanes and grooved tires...


Calvin
----
Impeach the prez to reply.
---
"The cars were going faster, but they were safer." -- Emerson Fittipaldi,

"Go with the Formula Vee...[because you really can't get the feel of a
rear-engined car with a midget.] " - Joe Leonard, 1972

mckennett

unread,
Aug 23, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/23/99
to
Its called principle......
Tony will not get to spend any of my money.
I would love to see the USGP,and the brickyard 400 for that matter,but some
people disagree with his methods.
I am one of them.
Ill go to Montreal,again, to get my F-1 fix.
Ram


Ross Stonefeld wrote:

> Why try to hurt F1 just because you dont like Tony and the IRL?
>

JShell8634

unread,
Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
to
>Well,in the middle of your PO'd mood, let me throw this out for you
>enjoyment.....
>
>Australia, Toronto, and Vancouver are all festivals that take place in
>the middle of city streets. They don't exactly draw indycar "fans",
>They draw just like the "Carribe Festival", the "Afro-American
>Festival" and the "Taste of Italy Festival" draw in major down town
>areas.
>
>Yes, I do appreciate what "exposure" they bring to non-fans in major
>markets, and some fans do appear. Especially, if there is a street
>race in YOUR town and you're starved for indycar racing, they can be
>important to you.
>
>But....as for RACING......and INDYCARS....... it's an oxymoron.
>
>DickS
>
All I can say is that you don't have a clue. The words obviously speak for
themselves.

C. Story

unread,
Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
to
On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 01:02:24 GMT, w...@where.com (DickS) wrote:

>
>Australia, Toronto, and Vancouver are all festivals that take place in
>the middle of city streets. They don't exactly draw indycar "fans",
>They draw just like the "Carribe Festival", the "Afro-American
>Festival" and the "Taste of Italy Festival" draw in major down town
>areas.

Not at all. If anything, Australia, Toronto and Vancouver probably
draw *more* die-hard CART fans than areas where there are
two or even three races in close proximity. Outside of
driving to Michigan or Detroit, Toronto is the only place
people in eastern Canada have to see CART live without
spending an arm and a leg in transportation. I attended the
Toronto race two years ago. I was sitting in the gold stands,
directly behind the pits and near the start/finish line. In those
stands it seemed almost everyone had a scanner and binoculars,
and attended all three days of the event.

>
>Yes, I do appreciate what "exposure" they bring to non-fans in major
>markets, and some fans do appear. Especially, if there is a street
>race in YOUR town and you're starved for indycar racing, they can be
>important to you.

Oddly enough, in the past few years,Toronto has actually
been a pretty good race. Vancouver was mediocre last
year, but Zanardi's charge through the field (both of them)
in the year before was pretty spectacular.

>


Chris Story

Mark McCauley

unread,
Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
to
DickS <w...@where.com> wrote in message
news:37c8efd4...@enews.newsguy.com...

> Aw, Ross, you just don't understand.........
>
> The "boys" here on rasi don't "hate" TG. What they really "HATE" is
> that their fave teams/drivers/series no longer runs at Indy. It eats
> them up......continually.

No Dick, YOU don't understand. The Indy 500 is in fact, just another race,
although the ignorant American public doesn't understand that. That makes
the sponsors want to spend millions of dollars to advertise there, thus
requiring that CART return there.

The whole month of May was a bunch of nonsense that did nothing but take
away time from the rest of the schedule and place undo emphasis on a single
race. It also served to put money in the pockets of one Tony George, not to
mention the city of Indianapolis.

As a die-hard CART fan, I can honestly and sincerely say that I don't care
if CART EVER returns to Indy except and unless it puts to bed the conflict
between CART and the IRL and it does no return in the same format.

Jason Hoehn

unread,
Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
to
I'll think abuot your comments when I'm making my 14 hour drive to vancouver
and spending my $700 over the week...
Yeah, typical "casual fan" behaviour,...

yeeesh,....

>
>Yes, I do appreciate what "exposure" they bring to non-fans in major
>markets, and some fans do appear. Especially, if there is a street
>race in YOUR town and you're starved for indycar racing, they can be
>important to you.
>

Sean O

unread,
Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
to
>All I can say is that you don't have a clue. The words obviously speak for
>themselves.

No, it's YOU that doesn't have a clue. I agree with Dick. I've lived in the
Cleveland area my whole life, and have been going to the Cleveland GP since
1995 and I don't think that the majority of the people that attend it are race
fans. They are there because it is something to do downtown. They show up for
the air show at Burke Lakefront Airport, and the Rib Cookoff too. If there are
200,000 or so people that go to each of these street races every year are true
fans, don't you think the TV ratings for the other races would be just as high?
No, because they aren't true fans. However, at the oval and permanent road
course races, that is where the true fans show up. And look at how their
attendence numbers are declining.

-Sean O'

Russell Jaslow

unread,
Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
to
C. Story (cstory@_NOSPAM_magmacom.com) wrote:

: On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 01:02:24 GMT, w...@where.com (DickS) wrote:

: >Australia, Toronto, and Vancouver are all festivals that take place in
: >the middle of city streets. They don't exactly draw indycar "fans",
: >They draw just like the "Carribe Festival", the "Afro-American
: >Festival" and the "Taste of Italy Festival" draw in major down town
: >areas.

: Not at all. If anything, Australia, Toronto and Vancouver probably
: draw *more* die-hard CART fans than areas where there are
: two or even three races in close proximity. Outside of
: driving to Michigan or Detroit, Toronto is the only place
: people in eastern Canada have to see CART live without
: spending an arm and a leg in transportation. I attended the
: Toronto race two years ago. I was sitting in the gold stands,
: directly behind the pits and near the start/finish line. In those
: stands it seemed almost everyone had a scanner and binoculars,
: and attended all three days of the event.

I agree here. I think Dick is going way overboard with his no racing
fans mantra. I mean, he's starting to sound as bad as my anti-TG
spews.

Listen Dick, I've been to Toronto. Twice. And each time I am absolutely
amazed at how many true blue racing fans there are up there. I've said
it before, and I'll say it again -- Canadians love their open wheel
racing. Heck, there were probably more true fans there than at Michigan.
At least in the sections where I sat.

And they watch the racing. You will see very few people walking around
while a race is taking place. Even the support ones. I see a lot more
people at a NASCAR race wondering around not watching anything.

Rus'L
---
NOTE -- Remove ekfido.
---
Russell Jaslow | http://www.DeepThrottle.com/ |My employer
jas...@eznet.net | |has nothing
Spec Racer Ford #33| http://www.DeepThrottle.com/Fun/ |to do with
Finger Lakes Region| http://www.DeepThrottle.com/History/ |my drivel.

Russell Jaslow

unread,
Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
to
Sean O (sean...@aol.com) wrote:
: >All I can say is that you don't have a clue. The words obviously speak for
: >themselves.

Declining like at Road America and Mid-Ohio?

And 200,000 is a trickle in TV numbers. A 1.3 rating on ABC means 1.3 million
households.

Jerry Orn

unread,
Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
to
typical child like mentality?
who knows?

Who cares though would be the question Ross.
The comments like that and by a few others never cease to amaze me!!
"i dont like him or her or what" "i am going to boycott everything"
wwaaaaaaaaa waaaaaaaaa waaaaaaaaaa

There must be more than one teenager here.

Jerry

Ross Stonefeld wrote in message <37C19BD4...@clearlight.com>...

Leah Pagan Olivarri

unread,
Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
to
Dear Jason,

Jason Hoehn wrote in message ...


>Its all part of this giant new philosophy of "money first, sport
second"


some snipped

Another interesting theory in terms of CART that may need a
little more work. How does the public offering, etc. fit in
here, or the Cleveland decision, or many other things. It is
great that you like CART, but professional sports is about money
first these days and that includes CART. We may not like that
fact. And, if you think that money and sport tend to have an
inverse relationships, I would think you would be a supporter of
IRL. I can't figure this all out????

Regards,

Leah

tjmc

unread,
Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to
On 24 Aug 1999 20:49:42 GMT, jas...@ekfido.kodak.com (Russell Jaslow)
wrote:

>Declining like at Road America and Mid-Ohio?
>
>And 200,000 is a trickle in TV numbers. A 1.3 rating on ABC means 1.3 million
>households.

What a joke. On a network broadcast you can get a 1.3 from the channel
surfers.

Jason Hoehn

unread,
Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to

AHHH, but you see I am a fan of the CONCEPT of the IRL, i think a lower-cost
grass-roots american formula-oval series is an excellent idea... I think the
racing can be exciting, the drivers are talented, and the whole idea has a
lot of merit and has its place in the racing community.

HOWEVER, TG has ousted out the (and I really dont think you can argue this
statement) best open-wheel oval racers in the world, from the most
prestigious oval race in the world. I think the majority of GREAT
Formula -oval racers are in CART. At one point, when the CARt guys were at
INDY it was open to EVERYONE. Granted, it was expensive to get in, a lot of
teams ONLY raced at INDY, but if you qualified even with a rusted out old 3
year old March you were in. But now, the INDY500 has become primarily an
"IRL-only" thing, with only few spots left in the grid for privateers. Why
is that? because TG wanted an american based oval-formula series? (no i
really dont think so, it already existed,) He realized what he has with IMS
and what power comes with the real estate. I've got the puck, and if you
wanna play hockey you gotta come to my rink.

My point to all of this is that TG has taken his "ace" and turned it into a
wedge for gaining power. if the 51% dea is true, TG is in for a big old
giant pile of cash. He's used his power (namely IMS) to get F1 to Indy
(funny how CART can't run Road courses in europe, but F1 can run road
courses at the brickyard,.. hummmm), and gettting CART into a total loss of
direction. He has leveraged himself into becoming the most powerful
racing-exec. in the world, all because of INDY. Yes, racing is a for-profit
deal, thats why there are sponsors, but it seems like CART has always kinda
played by the rules and let others openly compete with them and share in the
wealth. TG on the other hand has systematically and methodically worked his
power with IMS to try to monopolize open-wheel racing in NA. There's free
enterprise, and then theres trying to build a monopoly. Hell, even Bill
gates says he NEEDS Apple to survive. TG? i dont think he would be as
generous.

TG is playing monoply, and the only card he's holding is boardwalk,... it
may just only be a matter of time,....

Jason Hoehn

unread,
Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to

Too little to do???
what more can happen at an Oval for fans that can happen at a street race??
Im guessing (ive never been) to an oval, but there the pits, the paddock,
the merchandisers, beer tents, on site-entertainment, maybe a car show and
of course the racing.

Okay, now every year at Vancouver there is the pits, the paddock, the
merchandisers, beer tents, on site-entertainment, a car show and of course
the racing. PLUS it is DOWNTOWN Vancouver, so, if you want to leave the
track for a couple hours you can go to a nice restauarnt (or a cheap one,
McDonalds is right beside the track), check things out, or just wander
around. PLUS on the race site there is an IMAX theatre, the habour (they had
some jet-ski demos last year) , The Stage with live music, a
beach-volleyball pit,... Shall i go on?.... oh yeah, and a race, which gets
over 80,0000 people every year. Trust me, there is LOTS to do at a street
race (at least vancouver). in fact, it seems like last year there was almost
to much to do at the track. after being at the track from 8 am to 6pm your
pretty beat.

oh yeah, they have a jumbotrons for EVERY grandstand, so nobody will miss
any race action.


>I agree. However, there is (based on my Houston experience) some
>other factors. There is little to do inside the street track...and
>precious few, if any, places to stand and watch. When you get a 5
>second "snapshot" of the cars once per lap, you tend to hold onto
>those precious moments.
>


Jason Hoehn

unread,
Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to

>
>BTW, just curious here, is Vancouver the closest indycar race to your
>home?
>
Yes it is (why do i feel like Im getting led somewhere here?)
I live in calgary (but drive via Edmonton, me and 2 buddies go every year) I
think its about 1200 km, or about 850 miles. If there was a race closer, i
would go to that one AS WELL. Sometimes its hard to get away, and schedules
would make it topugh to plan more than one trip a year. Although we are
thinking about heading off to Fontana as well, and one of these years maybe
laguna Seca. We've even bandied the idea around of going to Bristol for
NASCAR.

Western Canada is quite thinly populated compared to the eastern states, so
there is only the once race that is "relatively" close. plus with american
exchange, a race in the states would be expensive to attend.

Russell Jaslow

unread,
Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to
tjmc (tj...@enteract.com) wrote:
: On 24 Aug 1999 20:49:42 GMT, jas...@ekfido.kodak.com (Russell Jaslow)
: wrote:

You keep bringing this up like it will be fact one day.

The new (and aborted) Babylon 5 series, Crusade, is averaging a 1.3 rating
on TNT. This has all the fans thrilled to death hoping the rating will
be high enough to encourage TNT, or somebody else, to continue with the
show. It's a rating higher than most people expected from this show which
TNT decided to cancel before it even aired and barely promoted.

Am I happy that open wheel racing gets a 1.3 rating? No! But it's a lot
higher than channel surfers. And usually higher than the Truck series, and
I don't see NASCAR cancelling that racing anytime soon.

Barry Posner

unread,
Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to

Jason Hoehn wrote:

> Western Canada is quite thinly populated compared to the eastern states, so
> there is only the once race that is "relatively" close. plus with american
> exchange, a race in the states would be expensive to attend.

You should consider going to Portland. It's about a 12-14 hour drive
from Cowtown, but you can get a decent weekend pass for less than
US$100. You can stay in hostels for $15 per night. And it's a good track
in a nice setting in a great city. And if you get there early enough,
you can park for free right by the entrance.

Coming to Vancouver for the race? Give me a buzz, maybe we can convene
for a beer or six.

bp-van-bc-ca-eh?

Mark McCauley

unread,
Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to
Barry Posner <bpo...@rescan.com> wrote in message
news:37C4150D...@rescan.com...

> You should consider going to Portland. It's about a 12-14 hour drive
> from Cowtown, but you can get a decent weekend pass for less than

Cowtown?

Sean O

unread,
Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to
>Declining like at Road America and Mid-Ohio?

Mid-Ohio attendence has delined at least 10,000 the past year two. The entire
row in front of me in the grandstands there for the CART race were empty, and
so were most of the seats to the right of me. The hillside wasn't as crowded
either. I heard it was estimated at 50,000, and I know that it has been 60-80K
in the past.

-Sean O'

Jason Hoehn

unread,
Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to
*LOL*,..

Calgary,....

Lotsa cowboys horses, cows and horseshit big skyscrapers and yuppie scum in
this city, Houston of the north,...

>
>Cowtown?
>
>

Mark McCauley

unread,
Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to
Jason Hoehn wrote:

Sorry, but Cowtown is Fort Worth, TX.

Leah Pagan Olivarri

unread,
Aug 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/26/99
to
Jason,

I can certainly argue whether TG ousted the racers or whether the
teams chose not to participate but we have beat these horses to
death, tied two of um together and they still don't go anywhere
:-)

But, the fact remains that drivers and teams have raced at Indy
and in CART and that includes even the first year of IRL so all
obviously the door has been open. BTW, Indy has been an
invitational race for many years - ie not open to "EVERYONE" and
you are telling Noah about the flood in terms of Indy only teams
that qualified in 3 year old chassis (though ours was not rusted)
and the expense :-) Getting into the field at Indy is still the
same experience in 1999 as it was in 1993 I assure you. And
there are approximately the same number of spots for "privateers"
(if not more) than there were before IRL was created.

As to your concept of CART letting others compete with them and
share the wealth, I think you may need to read some more history.
Do you understand the franchise arrangement that existed prior to
CART's going public? There is a whole lot more history to the
formation of IRL, the concept of two essentially "non-competing"
("you go your way, we'll go ours") series and the 25-8 rule that
existed BUT has not existed for the last two years than perhaps
you know or are recalling. I seem to recall many, including
CART team owners, saying that they did not need Indy in their new
global marketing plans. Jason, like it or not, there is more
than one side to this whole saga.

Finally, I think maybe you got off on a little too much of a
conspiracy trip in your post. Tony George used money and the
prestige/experience of IMS to get F1. What's wrong with that?
Same kind of things others wanted to use or use to get a race and
the good old American way :-) What is different about that than
Chip getting Chicago added to the CART schedule, or other race
track owners/promoters getting a race?

Tony George has nothing to do with FIA agreement signed long ago
that limits CART to ovals in Europe. And, surely you are not
blaming Tony George for - to quote you "CART's total loss of
direction" If this has indeed occurred to even some extent,
then that is CART's responsibility. Blaming someone else for
their management mistakes or problems, if they exist as you say,
is nonsensical. They are big boys. They have your respect for
their series. Making accusations like portrays as children.

You are obviously very emotional about this issue. I can be as
well. But, I think you are making some sweeping judgements based
on not enough facts or information. Knowing more about the
history certainly might not change your opinion, but it might
make your arguments more cogent.

And as to Bill Gates saying he needs Apple - yeah, right :-)

Regards,

Leah

Leah Pagan Olivarri

unread,
Aug 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/27/99
to
Dear Jason,

I don't want to ignore your posts but I am going to try to keep
it short since I need to go.

Jason Hoehn wrote in message ...

>Not once did i say "conspiracy theory" in the post, I did
however say
>"monopoly", which is an unfair business practice and

I did not say that you said that just that it did kind of seem to
be the flavor of your comments. As to monopoly discussion that
is one reason I asked if you knew about the franchise arrangement
prior to CART's going public. You might still want to do some
reading on this and the history in general.

I must say that I can not understand how having two open wheel
series is a monopoly. I'd I have thought having only one got
closer to the textbook definition of this term. But you and I
can just agree to disagree on this and on concept that Chicago
being added by a team owner is somehow different than a track and
series promoter adding an F1 or Nascar race. I just guess I
can't see it. And, I have to admit some of the additional
discussion re:F1 fans, etc. escaped me as well.

But, mainly I am replying to the following:


>And I am just a fan of racing, yes, but your an employee of TG,
correct? who
>has a bigger bias in this place? the fan? or the person who is
putting food
>on the table?.....

NO, I am not nor have I have ever been an employee of Tony
George. None of my family, including Allan, is an employee of
Tony George or IMS and to the best of my knowledge I don't
believe any team member has been either. I think you may be very
confused about the operations of race teams and certainly I can
unequivocally respond "Tony George does not put the food on the
table of any member of the Pagan family."

Pagan Racing races in the IRL. When we race, we do receive purse
money. Beyond this, all teams PAY to race. Purse money is nice
but it hardly gets the water wet when it comes to racing and the
numbers reported are hardly the take-home amounts for an owner.
Whether you want to believe it or not, my families involvement in
racing classifies more as a labor of love.

And, please understand that I do not think that it is Tony
George's responsiblity to feed us. His responsibility is to run
the series and run IMS among other things.

Now certainly I have biases - they include a preference for
ovals, a strong one for chocolate ice cream as opposed to
vanilla, and many more. And, yes, as a fan you may see things
differently. But, do not forget that I am a fan as well - of
CART, F1 and NASCAR.

And you wrote:

> As
>for history, maybe a better understanding of the complete past
would help my
>view, but having opinions based in the present means not having
a big
>suitcase full of pre-conceptions.

Opinions are great things and quite plentiful. But, I have
always found that having an understanding of the past (ie,
history) is worthwhile. It also makes debate somewhat more
interesting. It is no big problem, but there interesting
histories on line (www.racefax.com and used to be some on the old
indycar magazine site.) I would still encourage you to do the
same if you wish to debate the politics and business aspects of
racing.

Now if you just want to talk about what series you like - great.
Or, the which driver made an error at Chicago a.) Tracy b.)
Andretti c.) both, hey, that is super.

>>And as to Bill Gates saying he needs Apple - yeah, right :-)
>

>Read this link,.... ($150 million dollars that Microsoft invests
in
>apple,.....)
>http://www.tagish.com/ethosub/lit6/a09e.htm
>
>Heres a whole PAGE devoted to the MS partnership with mac. (and
its on
>Microsoft's site)
>http://www.microsoft.com/MAC/news/applems.htm

I was aware of Microsoft's investment and I'll stand by my
statement - yeah, right :-) Owning a part of something and
having it as free-market competitor are slightly different
things. And, by the way, I am not a Gate's basher. You build a
good mousetrap, you can't help it if all the mice come :-))

Regards,

Leah


Mike Johansson

unread,
Aug 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/27/99
to
Leah,
Although I may not agree with all of your, and Allan's, positions, I must
applaud you on a very lucid and well written set of opinions and replies to
Jason's post.


--
Mike Johansson
NeOhio SCCA

pa...@intcomm.net

unread,
Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
to
>On Fri, 27 Aug 1999 02:07:20 GMT, "Jason Hoehn" <jason...@home.com> wrote:

[much snippage]

>And I am just a fan of racing, yes, but your an employee of TG, correct? who
>has a bigger bias in this place? the fan? or the person who is putting food

>on the table?..... So I put it to you that you have an even bigger bias than
>myself ...

(I am in my hotel room in Colorado and looked in on my e-mail, and
decided to look in on RASI, too, since I can't seem to get to
sleep ... and I don't know how I missed this ludicrous post before,
but I'm afraid, potential flames or not, I just have to comment ...)


Jason, no more than you are an employee of Bill Clinton and *** HE ***
puts food on your table ...

I probably have far less bias than you (and certainly less arrogance
to presume know *** YOUR *** personal biases ...), as I have been
involved with a team that has run in both series, and I have many
personal friends, as well as business associates, in *** BOTH ***
series (as well as NASCAR, a number of motorcycle race series, and
some local roundy-round stuff and go-karts, Dwarf cars, Legends, and
anything else you can think of ...).

Once more for the record ...

*** I LIKE BOTH SERIES AND THE PEOPLE WHO RACE IN BOTH
SERIES, BUT I HAVE ISSUES WITH PEOPLE IN BOTH SERIES,
TOO ... ***

I don't work for Tony George, nor does any of my family, nor do any of
the members of our team ...

Just as Juan Montoya and Mo Nunn don't work for Andrew "Austin Powers"
Craig ... :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

Try a reasoned argument, instead of a oddly manufactured one ...

>but having opinions based in the present means not having a big
>suitcase full of pre-conceptions.


Those that don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it ...

And I would always rather have "pre-conceptions" based on more, and
more accurate, data than simple, only-recently-formed
"pre-conceptions" based only on my emotions and pro-CART media based
propoganda ...

Geez, I don't know why I am even responding to this lame ramble ...

My sister can more than handle herself with folks like you ...

In battle of wits with somebody like you, Jason; she's debating an
un-armed man ...

Allan

Flagg...@webtv.net

unread,
Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99
to
Jason

The only people who are employees of a sanctioning body (and you seem to
be using TG and IRL interchangeably) are admin and some marketing
people. Officials, with very few exceptions, do the job for expenses
(or less!), and participants (teams, drivers, etc) aren't associated at
all! Racing teams PAY the sanctioning body to participate. The only
thing they get from the sanctioning body is prize money...and that
hardly EVER covers costs.

One thing very few people seem to realize about pro racing...for the
most part, the only people MAKING money from the racing are some of the
top drivers. One way or another, most everyone else pays...

It sounds trite, but it really is a labor of love.

BTW, before it's brought up, those crewmembers who are paid are paid by
the teams, not the sanctioning body. And a lot of crew aren't paid,
either...

Phil


Korin Jobb

unread,
Sep 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/1/99
to
I think People misundertood Jason's statement of "working for TG", for
someone who races in the IRL and a team that makes money from the IRL, it
could be argued that you are an "employee" of that series. Much like a
labourer of a contractor is an employee in a construction site. the IRL is
the construction site, Pagan is the contractor and Leah is the employee of
the contractor. To say that any team is not being employed by a series is a
bit of a stretch. Arguably, pagan racing would not be in business if the IRL
did not exist, and therefore they are making money from the series (even if
indirectly). The teams are paid because of the series. if the IRL did not
exist, the teams would not. And therefore Pagan racing has a vested interest
in TG because they are "contractors" to his business.

Leah Pagan Olivarri

unread,
Sep 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/1/99
to
Korin,

Korin Jobb wrote in message
<7qig0s$8dn$1...@dagger.videotron.ab.ca>...


>I think People misundertood Jason's statement of "working for
TG", for
>someone who races in the IRL and a team that makes money from
the IRL, it
>could be argued that you are an "employee" of that series.

A sincere thank you for your post. I think Jason made the
statement if you re-read his post in reference to "putting food
on our table." Again, this is simply not the case in terms of
me.

I think we just see things differently in terms of Pagan Racing.
When someone has to pay to race and any "pay" is dependent on
performance, I don't think this is a contractor type arrangement.
But, you may certainly see it differently. Phil's comments were
right in that the major money made in racing tends to be made by
drivers, suppliers or track owners - not team owners. The latter
tend to do it for the love of the sport, or in some cases,
because it ties into other businesses.

Just one further note - I consistently state that I am a fan of
CART, F1, NASCAR etc cause I am.

Regards,

Leah


Flagg...@webtv.net

unread,
Sep 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/1/99
to
Koran

I'm not going to get into this too much more, becuase Allan knows much
more about it than I do...but you are quite wrong about teams, employees
and sanctioning bodies and their relationships. This is not a
flame...but the way you describe it is not quite the way it works.
Really.

Phil


Russell Jaslow

unread,
Sep 14, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/14/99
to
DickS (w...@where.com) wrote:

: When you get a 5


: second "snapshot" of the cars once per lap, you tend to hold onto
: those precious moments.

You need to read Ken Plotkin's "There's Nothing Wrong With Any Kind of
Racing" dissertion. :-)

Ken Plotkin

unread,
Sep 18, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/18/99