Vettel passed 19 cars today

[Brian Lawrence]

Starting 23rd he gained 12 places before his first stop - making 7
passes (KAR, SEN, PIC, GLO, PET, KOV, RIC), gaining 4 places when
others pitted (GRO, DIR, ROS, VER), and inheriting one place when
HUL retired on lap one.

Rejoining after his first stop (lap 14) he was 21st and last.

Between laps 14 and 37 he gained 19 places - passing 11 cars (DIR, DLR,
GRO, PIC, GLO, PET, VER, KOV, SEN, RIC, MSC), gained 7 places when
others pitted (KOB, MAS, ALO, MAL, BUT, WEB, PER), and inherited one
place when HAM retired.

On lap 37 he made his second stop, rejoining 4th, a loss of two places.

On lap 52 he made his final place gain, passing BUT for 3rd.

He gained 32 places and lost 12, a net gain of 20.

19 passes, gained 11 places at pitstops, two inherited by DNFs.


Here's a log (from the lap chart):

Qualified third, but relegated to 24th and last for inability to provide
one litre fuel sample.

Before start - gained one place when DLR failed to start for parade lap.
DLR also started from pitlane, but behind VET.

Lap Pos G/L
================================================
1 20 +3 HUL retired, GRO & DIR pitted
2 18 +2 passed KAR, ROS pitted
3 16 +2 passed SEN & PIC
4 14 +2 passed GLO & PET

7 13 +1 passed KOV

9 12 +1 VER pitted

13 11 +1 passed RIC [during his pitlane entry]

Pitted at end of lap 13 (Safety Car), fitted new nose/f.wing.
Rejoined 21st/last.

15 19 +2 passed DIR & DLR
16 17 +2 passed GRO & PIC

18 15 +2 passed GLO & PET

20 12 +3 passed VER & KOV; HAM retired
21 11 +1 passed SEN

23 10 +1 passed RIC

25 8 +2 passed MSC; KOB pitted
26 7 +1 MAS pitted

29 5 +2 ALO & MAL pitted
30 3 +2 BUT & WEB pitted
31 2 +1 PER pitted

Pitted again at the end of lap 37, rejoining 4th.

52 3 +1 passed BUT

--

Brian W Lawrence
Wantage
Oxfordshire

[Hamm...@gmail.com]

Im surprised that nobody questions this f1 where a car is able to leave from last place from the pits and finish off in 3rd place in what is considered to have the best drivers and the best cars in the world.
I have a hard time accepting that no other driver could put out a fight to Vettel and get him stuck behind. What does that says about the cars and especially the drivers of this modern F1?

Its a joke.

[pltrgyst]

On 11/4/12 10:13 PM, Hamm...@gmail.com wrote:
> Im surprised that nobody questions how a car was able to leave from last place from the pits and finish off in 3rd place in what is considered to have the best drivers and the best cars in the world.
> I have a hard time that nobody could put out a fight to Vettel and get him stuck behind.
>
> Its a joke.

Always killfile the morons at the first opportunity.

{plonk}

-- Larry

[Hamm...@gmail.com]

>
>
> Always killfile the morons at the first opportunity.
>
>
>
> {plonk}
>
>
>
> -- Larry

Please do add me to your ignore list if you have nothing to say other than to insult other people.
Thank you.

[Sir Tim]

Any particular reason you keep duplicating your posts or are you just an
idiot?

[RzR]

thanks for heads up...

*flush*

[Bigbird]

As you appear to do little but post the same thing repeatedly I have to
agree with Larry.

ps he wasn't insulting "other people".

[hamm...@gmail.com]

On Nov 5, 6:44 am, "Bigbird" <Bigbird.usenetNOS...@Gmail.com> wrote:

Wow this is the rudest newsgroup that I have the displeasure to read.
Congratulations I will not bother participate in this newsgroup
anymore seeing the level of the participants.
I am just surprised that this is tolerated behavior.
Goodbye.

[yourspamhere@nowhere.com Oliver Crawford]

You haven't quite figured out this Usenet thingy, have you?

[Mower Man]

An excellent example of what the poster disliked. Well done.
--
Chris

'Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it
every six months.'

(Oscar Wilde.)

[Bigbird]

XHamm...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Nov 5, 6:44�am, "Bigbird" <Bigbird.usenetNOS...@Gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hammer...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > > Always killfile the morons at the first opportunity.
> >
> > > > {plonk}
> >
> > > > -- Larry
> >
> > > Please do add me to your ignore list if you have nothing to say
> > > other than to insult other people. �Thank you.
> >
> > As you appear to do little but post the same thing repeatedly I
> > have to agree with Larry.
> >
> > ps he wasn't insulting "other people".
>
> Wow this is the rudest newsgroup that I have the displeasure to read.

If you think that's rude sonny you don't want to stick around making an
ass of yourself much longer.

> Congratulations I will not bother participate in this newsgroup
> anymore seeing the level of the participants.

It's a dying group we don't need *new* morons AFAIAC (it's taken some
time to cultivate the ones we have)...certainly not ones who can't put
up an interesting fight.

> I am just surprised that this is tolerated behavior.

I believe your thinking of a moderated forum. In that environment a
moderator would have stepped in and asked you to stop billboarding
and/or banned you. There wouldn't be a need for Larry to killfile you
for being a moron.

> Goodbye.

Goodmove.

[CatharticF1]

Brian Lawrence <Brian_W_...@msn.com> wrote in news:afnpu0FsbmeU1
@mid.individual.net:

I take issue with this being considered a great drive. Though I know you're
not putting that case.

Vettel has had some great races, but this wasn't one. Essentially he made
up time on the leaders due to the Safety Cars. He made two mistakes
damaging his front wing, but they didn't compound the qualifying penalty.
They all but removed it. His forced pitstop (due to 2 mistakes) meant he
caught a lot of cars when they pitted and didn't have to pass them.

Then he was further gifted 20 odd seconds with another SC which gave him
another place.

From what you listed the only challenges to pass were:

Senna (twice)
Di Resta
Schumacher
Button (who was on older slower tyres)

There were so many ways other cars found to get out of his way or cause a
SC. And in some cases both! :)

So yes - I'm annoyed that fate let them play with the rules and then have
circumstances sidestep them I guess.

Alonso's job was much harder - he passed Maldonado, Button and Webber. The
latter two definitely in faster cars. Which was a problem Vettel didn't
have with any of them.

--
CatharticF1

I can't resist no crossing signs

[Phil Carmody]

Brian Lawrence <Brian_W_...@msn.com> writes:
> Starting 23rd he gained 12 places before his first stop - making 7
> passes (KAR, SEN, PIC, GLO, PET, KOV, RIC), gaining 4 places when
> others pitted (GRO, DIR, ROS, VER), and inheriting one place when
> HUL retired on lap one.
>
> Rejoining after his first stop (lap 14) he was 21st and last.
>
> Between laps 14 and 37 he gained 19 places - passing 11 cars (DIR,
> DLR, GRO, PIC, GLO, PET, VER, KOV, SEN, RIC, MSC), gained 7 places when
> others pitted (KOB, MAS, ALO, MAL, BUT, WEB, PER), and inherited one
> place when HAM retired.
>
> On lap 37 he made his second stop, rejoining 4th, a loss of two places.
>
> On lap 52 he made his final place gain, passing BUT for 3rd.
>
> He gained 32 places and lost 12, a net gain of 20.
>
> 19 passes, gained 11 places at pitstops, two inherited by DNFs.
>
>
> Here's a log (from the lap chart):
>
> Qualified third, but relegated to 24th and last for inability to
> provide one litre fuel sample.
>
> Before start - gained one place when DLR failed to start for parade
> lap. DLR also started from pitlane, but behind VET.
>
> Lap Pos G/L
> ================================================
> 1 20 +3 HUL retired, GRO & DIR pitted

None of those are overtakes

> 2 18 +2 passed KAR, ROS pitted

The former doesn't count as a worthy "overtake", and the other involves no
overtaking manoevre at all.

> 3 16 +2 passed SEN & PIC

OK, 1 of those can be counted as an overtake

> 4 14 +2 passed GLO & PET

But neither of those can.

> 7 13 +1 passed KOV

Nor that.

> 9 12 +1 VER pitted

Nor that.

> 13 11 +1 passed RIC [during his pitlane entry]

Nor that.

> Pitted at end of lap 13 (Safety Car), fitted new nose/f.wing.
> Rejoined 21st/last.
>
> 15 19 +2 passed DIR & DLR

1 of those can, so we're up to 2.

> 16 17 +2 passed GRO & PIC

1 of those can, so we're up to 3

> 18 15 +2 passed GLO & PET

Neither of those can

> 20 12 +3 passed VER & KOV; HAM retired

Neither of those can

> 21 11 +1 passed SEN

That can, so we're up to 4

> 23 10 +1 passed RIC

That can't

> 25 8 +2 passed MSC; KOB pitted

1 of those can, so we're up to 5

> 26 7 +1 MAS pitted

That can't

> 29 5 +2 ALO & MAL pitted

Those can't

> 30 3 +2 BUT & WEB pitted

Those can't

> 31 2 +1 PER pitted

That can't

> Pitted again at the end of lap 37, rejoining 4th.
>
> 52 3 +1 passed BUT

That can.

So he actually had to perform 6 overtakes (Senna x 2, Di Resta,
Grosjean, Schumacher, Button). blast past a bunch of back markers a
couple of times, and cruise past other people on the red bull payroll
a few times.

That is not a legendary performance by any means. In particular as he
wasn't even in a car he had to qualify in. I think Alonso's race gains
have been more impressive than that in *many* races this season.

Phil
--
Regarding TSA regulations:
How are four small bottles of liquid different from one large bottle?
Because four bottles can hold the components of a binary liquid explosive,
whereas one big bottle can't. -- camperdave responding to MacAndrew on /.

[Bigbird]

Gotta smile.

You are such a faker.

While I think I put Alonso's drive above Seb's, just (mainly due to
making less apparent errors)...I am 100% sure that if the roles were
reversed you would be arguing that the SC and DRS aided charge from the
back was a supreme performance...(much as you did the cheat aided win
in 2008).

For instance, examine Alonso's pass on Button. Clearly an error by
Button who put himself in a bad position on the outside of Webber, car
performance was irrelevant...so why mention it other than to try to
make Alonso's opportunism look more than what it was.

Now Seb did actually have to perform an overtaking manouever to pass
Button but...

...and as I remember it the Ferrari was much faster down the straight
than Webber's Red Bull so saying that Webber was "definitely" in a
faster car is amusing.

Same old Brendan :)

[yourspamhere@nowhere.com Oliver Crawford]

Mower Man wrote:
> On 05/11/2012 4:11 PM, Oliver Crawford wrote:
>> XHamm...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Nov 5, 6:44 am, "Bigbird" <Bigbird.usenetNOS...@Gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hammer...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Always killfile the morons at the first opportunity.
>>>>
>>>>>> {plonk}
>>>>
>>>>>> -- Larry
>>>>
>>>>> Please do add me to your ignore list if you have nothing to say
>>>>> other than to insult other people. Thank you.
>>>>
>>>> As you appear to do little but post the same thing repeatedly I
>>>> have to agree with Larry.
>>>>
>>>> ps he wasn't insulting "other people".
>>>
>>> Wow this is the rudest newsgroup that I have the displeasure to
>>> read. Congratulations I will not bother participate in this
>>> newsgroup anymore seeing the level of the participants.
>>> I am just surprised that this is tolerated behavior.
>>> Goodbye.
>>
>> You haven't quite figured out this Usenet thingy, have you?
>>
>>
>
> An excellent example of what the poster disliked. Well done.

It was a hint that if he thinks people can decide what and what is not
tolerated on Usenet than he needs to do some finding out about the basics.

[yourspamhere@nowhere.com Oliver Crawford]

CatharticF1 wrote:
> Brian Lawrence <Brian_W_...@msn.com> wrote in news:afnpu0FsbmeU1
> @mid.individual.net:
>
> I take issue with this being considered a great drive. Though I know
> you're not putting that case.
>
> Vettel has had some great races, but this wasn't one. Essentially he
> made up time on the leaders due to the Safety Cars. He made two
> mistakes damaging his front wing, but they didn't compound the
> qualifying penalty. They all but removed it. His forced pitstop (due
> to 2 mistakes) meant he caught a lot of cars when they pitted and
> didn't have to pass them.
>
> Then he was further gifted 20 odd seconds with another SC which gave
> him another place.
>
> From what you listed the only challenges to pass were:
>
> Senna (twice)
> Di Resta
> Schumacher
> Button (who was on older slower tyres)

Yeah, "only" ...

[...]

[Mower Man]

Yes, he posted the same thing multiple times. Bad.
Yes, he plainly doesn't understand much about F1, specially safety cars.
Bad.

But - Larry (pltrgyst) immediately attacked him, rather than attemp1ting
to correct him or toe explain. Also Bad.

So, he has learned absolutely nothing at all. Sad.

[Noj]

Mower Man wrote ...

>
> But - Larry (pltrgyst) immediately attacked him, rather than attemp1ting
> to correct him or toe explain. Also Bad.
>

WTF do people have to announce that they've plonked another poster?
It's all a bit skool gurlie for me.

[Mower Man]

I agree!

[MaRKg123]

On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 03:13:53 -0000, Hamm...@gmail.com

<Hamm...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Im surprised that nobody questions how a car was able to leave from last
> place from the pits and finish off in 3rd place in what is considered to
> have the best drivers and the best cars in the world.
> I have a hard time that nobody could put out a fight to Vettel and get
> him stuck behind.
>
> Its a joke.

Because they changed the car from a hybrid quali/race setup, to a full out
and out race setup. They also got lucky with the safety cars.

Simple as that...

McLaren's failure in Spain, was to actually start from the back of the
grid, and not fake some excuse that means pit lane start, and exiting of
parc ferme.



--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[CatharticF1]

"Bigbird" <Bigbird.us...@Gmail.com> wrote in news:afscajFsukmU1
@mid.individual.net:

You know, your jab aside - I don't think we're far apart at all here.

> For instance, examine Alonso's pass on Button. Clearly an error by
> Button who put himself in a bad position on the outside of Webber, car
> performance was irrelevant...so why mention it other than to try to
> make Alonso's opportunism look more than what it was.

Well he keeps being opportune, doesn't he? Quite a coincidence.

> Now Seb did actually have to perform an overtaking manouever to pass
> Button but...

Yes - he did.

> ...and as I remember it the Ferrari was much faster down the straight
> than Webber's Red Bull so saying that Webber was "definitely" in a
> faster car is amusing.

As Vettel put a longer 7th gear in between qualifying and the race, this
point is not well made.. :)

> Same old Brendan :)

I feel sorry for Alonso. I think he's the driver of the season, but
Ferrari isn't the car of the season.

[CatharticF1]

Phil Carmody <thefatphi...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
news:87fw4nu...@bazspaz.fatphil.org:

> So he actually had to perform 6 overtakes (Senna x 2, Di Resta,
> Grosjean, Schumacher, Button). blast past a bunch of back markers a
> couple of times, and cruise past other people on the red bull payroll
> a few times.
>
> That is not a legendary performance by any means. In particular as he
> wasn't even in a car he had to qualify in. I think Alonso's race gains
> have been more impressive than that in *many* races this season.
>
> Phil

I think Hell just froze over, for us to agree.

[Bigbird]

Agreed. It's not the conclusion but the obvious bias that I find
amusing.

> > For instance, examine Alonso's pass on Button. Clearly an error by
> > Button who put himself in a bad position on the outside of Webber,
> > car performance was irrelevant...so why mention it other than to
> > try to make Alonso's opportunism look more than what it was.
>
> Well he keeps being opportune, doesn't he? Quite a coincidence.
>

Not at all...but the emphasis on the better car in a situation where
performance was irrelevant was somewhat of a misrepresentation IMO.

> > Now Seb did actually have to perform an overtaking manouever to pass
> > Button but...
>
> Yes - he did.
>
> > ...and as I remember it the Ferrari was much faster down the
> > straight than Webber's Red Bull so saying that Webber was
> > "definitely" in a faster car is amusing.
>
> As Vettel put a longer 7th gear in between qualifying and the race,
> this point is not well made.. :)
>

As Vettel is not Webber nor Alonso his setup is not relevant to your
comment.

> > Same old Brendan :)
>
> I feel sorry for Alonso. I think he's the driver of the season, but
> Ferrari isn't the car of the season.

Alonso has had the most reliable and consistent car of the season. This
is a very different season from any I have ever seen...due almost
entirely to the tyres. I don't think anyone has a true handle on how to
judge these cars, most comments are rather shallow and naive referring
to Saturday pace above all.

There is no doubt the RBR has been the car to have in the later part of
the season. Newey found more downforce yet again. Yet still the
emphasis is on getting the potential performance out of the tyres and
finding some clean air to do it in.

I wouldn't pity Alonso. He's had credit piled on him often where little
is really due. How many times has he been involved in incidents not of
his making compared to others. He has still got a chance in a
championship that according to many he shouldn't have and that is not
simply because the other drivers have underperformed. Some would argue
that Alonso has been bloody lucky to be in the fight at all.

[John Briggs]

You don't need to fake an excuse.
--
John Briggs

[Bobster]

On Nov 7, 12:57 am, MaRKg123 <SDF...@sdfsdf.com> wrote:
<snip>

> McLaren's failure in Spain, was to actually start from the back of the
> grid, and not fake some excuse that means pit lane start, and exiting of
> parc ferme.

That wasn't an option denied to McLaren. There is nothing in the rules
that prevents any car from having it's set up changed post-qualifying
as long as the team informs the stewards. Indeed the rules
specifically cater for such an event, and the "cost" for taking your
car out of parc ferme is that you must start from the pit lane.
There's no need to make an excuse. You just take your car out of parc
ferme and inform the stewards that you've done so. The stewards then
apply the rules and instruct you to start from the pit lane.

So here's what happened:
1) The stewards DQed Vettel from qualifying but allowed him to race -
which mean he had to start from the back of the grid
2) Then, separately and later, they were advised by RBR that Vettel's
car had been removed from parc ferme and had changes made to it.
3) The stewards, as per the rules, told RBR that Vettel's car had to
start from the pit lane.


What we don't know is why McLaren didn't do this at Spain. Either they
weren't aware that they could, or they judged that there was no
advantage to be gained.

[Bigbird]

Any car can start from the pitlane if they choose.

[~misfit~]

Also, half of the 'passes' accredited to Vettel were other drivers simply
getting out of the way as they knew he was faster and it was inevitable he'd
get past. (A car defending actually goes slower so why defend against a car
that's going to get past you via DRS anyway?)

In fact, from what I saw (and I watched the race twice to make sense of how
Vettel got to where he did) the only tough pass was Button (who, as you say,
was on older tyres) and Vettel made a big deal of that pass in the post-race
interview. Why? Because it was the only note-worthy pass he made in the
whole race. All the rest were 'gimmes', even if one or two other drivers
resisted for a lap or so first (usually because they were getting DRS too
from a guy in front).
--
/Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)

[~misfit~]

Somewhere on teh intarwebs CatharticF1 wrote:

> Phil Carmody <thefatphi...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
> news:87fw4nu...@bazspaz.fatphil.org:
>
>> So he actually had to perform 6 overtakes (Senna x 2, Di Resta,
>> Grosjean, Schumacher, Button). blast past a bunch of back markers a
>> couple of times, and cruise past other people on the red bull payroll
>> a few times.
>>
>> That is not a legendary performance by any means. In particular as he
>> wasn't even in a car he had to qualify in. I think Alonso's race
>> gains have been more impressive than that in *many* races this
>> season.
>

> I think Hell just froze over, for us to agree.

+1

[~misfit~]

Somewhere on teh intarwebs pltrgyst wrote:

> On 11/4/12 10:13 PM, Hamm...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Im surprised that nobody questions how a car was able to leave from
>> last place from the pits and finish off in 3rd place in what is
>> considered to have the best drivers and the best cars in the world.
>> I have a hard time that nobody could put out a fight to Vettel and
>> get him stuck behind. Its a joke.
>

> Always killfile the morons at the first opportunity.
>
> {plonk}
>
> -- Larry

D'oh! Never tell them, they only nymshift. :-/

[Gene]

"~misfit~" <shaun.at...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:k7sc9i$j4f$1...@dont-email.me...

> Somewhere on teh intarwebs pltrgyst wrote:
>> On 11/4/12 10:13 PM, Hamm...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Im surprised that nobody questions how a car was able to leave from
>>> last place from the pits and finish off in 3rd place in what is
>>> considered to have the best drivers and the best cars in the world.
>>> I have a hard time that nobody could put out a fight to Vettel and
>>> get him stuck behind. Its a joke.
>>
>> Always killfile the morons at the first opportunity.
>>
>> {plonk}

Yepper, and don't forget to hide, cower and isolate yourself
at every conceivable opportunity, you can never be too safe.

[Phil Carmody]

"~misfit~" <shaun.at...@gmail.com> writes:
> Somewhere on teh intarwebs CatharticF1 wrote:
> > Phil Carmody <thefatphi...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
> > news:87fw4nu...@bazspaz.fatphil.org:
> >
> >> So he actually had to perform 6 overtakes (Senna x 2, Di Resta,
> >> Grosjean, Schumacher, Button). blast past a bunch of back markers a
> >> couple of times, and cruise past other people on the red bull payroll
> >> a few times.
> >>
> >> That is not a legendary performance by any means. In particular as he
> >> wasn't even in a car he had to qualify in. I think Alonso's race
> >> gains have been more impressive than that in *many* races this
> >> season.
> >
> > I think Hell just froze over, for us to agree.
>
> +1

Indeed Hell has frozen over - I'm now actually cheering for
Ferrari, for pity's sake!?!?!? (But only for 2 more races,
normality will ensue in 4 months.)

And in Tim Minchin style, I shall now say that I hope Vettel crashes
and burns. (And if you don't know the Tim Minchin reference, viz.
Lullaby, read and understand before responding.)

[~misfit~]

Somewhere on teh intarwebs Phil Carmody wrote:
> "~misfit~" <shaun.at...@gmail.com> writes:
>> Somewhere on teh intarwebs CatharticF1 wrote:
>>> Phil Carmody <thefatphi...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
>>> news:87fw4nu...@bazspaz.fatphil.org:
>>>
>>>> So he actually had to perform 6 overtakes (Senna x 2, Di Resta,
>>>> Grosjean, Schumacher, Button). blast past a bunch of back markers a
>>>> couple of times, and cruise past other people on the red bull
>>>> payroll a few times.
>>>>
>>>> That is not a legendary performance by any means. In particular as
>>>> he wasn't even in a car he had to qualify in. I think Alonso's race
>>>> gains have been more impressive than that in *many* races this
>>>> season.
>>>
>>> I think Hell just froze over, for us to agree.
>>
>> +1
>
> Indeed Hell has frozen over - I'm now actually cheering for
> Ferrari, for pity's sake!?!?!? (But only for 2 more races,
> normality will ensue in 4 months.)

Likewise. I feel... sorta dirty somehow. Or maybe it's greasy. ;-)

> And in Tim Minchin style, I shall now say that I hope Vettel crashes
> and burns. (And if you don't know the Tim Minchin reference, viz.
> Lullaby, read and understand before responding.)

Thanks for that. I didn't know, now I do. Great lyrics. :)