What is wrong with Jos Verstappen?
Jasper Verschut
Why is everyone so negative about Jos Verstappen?
He couldn't help it that he had a car that compares with a formula3 car.
Well now everyone is talking about arrows like it's one of the topteams
because Damon Hill was stuppid enough to sign a contract there (was it
for the money or couldn't he get a beter deal?) but it still is nothing
more than a bunch of losers with the biggest "power" horse of them all,
Tom you know who.
Arrows just used this year to save some money and develop their car
(that's not so stupid) but they should have had more respect for their
drivers and they should not have send them on the track with second
grade materials (wich almost costed Jos his live a few times).
Well next year the car will be better and everyone will say, you see it
wasn't the car it was Jos. Well anyone who believes that could be a
member of the arrows team.
About the future for Jos, don't worry he will be fine in his new car
(sauber, jorden or tyrrel) and we will see who has the last laugh.
Oh about the Philips sponsoring thing, No one told anywhere that Philips
stopped sponsoring.
There is just no contract at this moment.
David Atkinson
Now that's a true fan...
--
David Atkinson
The Unofficial Pedro Diniz Fan Club Founder
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/4817/index.html
atki...@pop.ou.edu
Mike Beal
Jasper Verschut wrote:
> Why is everyone so negative about Jos Verstappen? etc. etc.
Because he had a terrible season.
Now Jasper, and the rest of Holland: we know you love your boy, and your
support for him is admirable. But for heaven's sake, it's about
PERFORMANCE and RESULTS. Yes, he had a sub-standard car; yes he had a
lot of breakdowns. But he also crashed out of a number of races through
his own errors.
Don't ask me to enumerate them. Rather, you convince me: tell me about
his outstanding performances and good results. My mind remains open,
that he could still be a good'un, but it's up to him to show me.
--Mike
Jasper Verschut
that his fine teamboss tom you know who talked about a "problem in the
driver's right foot" wel wel wel that is realy a positive atitude
towards your driver who gave you your first and only point.
I think that tom will be sorry he dumped Jos when Jos passes rich boy
Pedro Diniz (Oh yeah he was not signed for his money..) for the second
time in one race.
Mark Roberts
Warning - Troll alert!
Jasper Verschut <sjo...@cistron.nl> wrote:
<snip>
>Well next year the car will be better and everyone will say, you see it
>wasn't the car it was Jos. Well anyone who believes that could be a
>member of the arrows team.
Hey, I`ll believe and say it. Can I join please?
>About the future for Jos, don't worry he will be fine in his new car
>(sauber, jorden or tyrrel) and we will see who has the last laugh.
I`d be laughing (hysterically) if I was told that was all there was to
drive.
>Oh about the Philips sponsoring thing, No one told anywhere that Philips
>stopped sponsoring.
>There is just no contract at this moment.
Hill doesn`t have a contract with Williams either and we all know what
he`s doing next year.
Mark
_________________________________
E-mail ma...@boots.com
"..every lap I think `Oh bollocks!
This is dreadful..`" Damon Hill
__________________________________
Jim Spencer
Jasper Verschut wrote:
> The only time he crashed out by an error on his side was in spain, after
> that his fine teamboss tom you know who talked about a "problem in the
> driver's right foot" wel wel wel that is realy a positive atitude
> towards your driver who gave you your first and only point.
> I think that tom will be sorry he dumped Jos when Jos passes rich boy
> Pedro Diniz (Oh yeah he was not signed for his money..) for the second
> time in one race.
The Verstappen crowd is missing the point; Jos hasn't done anything to justify
any confidence that he can perform. It doesn't matter whose fault it is and it
may be totally unfair but there is simply no evidence that he can drive
competitively.
Personally I don't think its completely unfair. The reason we all get so
passionate about our drivers is we all believe that the driver makes a
difference. If, as has been asserted, Verstappen's performance is completely and
solely due to the car and if, as been asserted, Hill's performace is equally
completely and solely due to the car, then there is no reason to care who is
driving. The results will be determined by the engineers and no one else. I
truly hope we haven't gotten to that point yet.
Whatever, I doubt Walkenshaw is going to get an opportunity to see Verstappen
pass Diniz if Verstappen isn't in a car.
Kees van Reeuwijk
Jim Spencer <jspe...@winternet.com> wrote:
>Jasper Verschut wrote:
>
>> The only time he crashed out by an error on his side was in spain, after
>> that his fine teamboss tom you know who talked about a "problem in the
>> driver's right foot" wel wel wel that is realy a positive atitude
>> towards your driver who gave you your first and only point.
>> I think that tom will be sorry he dumped Jos when Jos passes rich boy
>> Pedro Diniz (Oh yeah he was not signed for his money..) for the second
>> time in one race.
>
>The Verstappen crowd is missing the point; Jos hasn't done anything to justify
>any confidence that he can perform. It doesn't matter whose fault it is and it
>may be totally unfair but there is simply no evidence that he can drive
>competitively.
Fair comment, although some people have pointed out that there have
been signs: in Spain he lapped consistently much faster than could be
expected (before he spun, duh), and in one of the last qualifications
of the season he had the top speed on one of the speed traps in a
relatively underpowered car. That was because he braked later than
everyone at that point (and no, he didn't crash :-)).
I'm sure the Jos fans can supply more examples.
Of course, more is needed to be a good driver, but I can see why
people consider him fast.
IMHO he has been very unlucky in his choice of drives: Simtek went
belly up last year halfway through the season, and this year Arrows
stopped development mid-season. The worst moment was when Arrows tried
this new Hart engine of which everyone had such high hopes, and it
turned out to be even worse than the old one. It hasn't been hear of
since, and they changed very little to the car after that.
--
Kees van Reeuwijk
Delft University of Technology, Faculty of Applied Physics, FI-CP
email: reeu...@cp.tn.tudelft.nl
URL: http://www.cp.tn.tudelft.nl/C.vanReeuwijk/home.html
conn...@gol.com
> Jasper Verschut wrote:
>
> > The only time he crashed out by an error on his side was in spain, after
> > that his fine teamboss tom you know who talked about a "problem in the
> > driver's right foot" wel wel wel that is realy a positive atitude
> > towards your driver who gave you your first and only point.
> > I think that tom will be sorry he dumped Jos when Jos passes rich boy
> > Pedro Diniz (Oh yeah he was not signed for his money..) for the second
> > time in one race.
>
> The Verstappen crowd is missing the point; Jos hasn't done anything to
justify
> any confidence that he can perform. It doesn't matter whose fault it is
and it
> may be totally unfair but there is simply no evidence that he can drive
> competitively.
>
> Personally I don't think its completely unfair. The reason we all get so
> passionate about our drivers is we all believe that the driver makes a
> difference. If, as has been asserted, Verstappen's performance is
completely and
> solely due to the car and if, as been asserted, Hill's performace is equally
> completely and solely due to the car, then there is no reason to care who is
> driving. The results will be determined by the engineers and no one else. I
> truly hope we haven't gotten to that point yet.
>
> Whatever, I doubt Walkenshaw is going to get an opportunity to see Verstappen
> pass Diniz if Verstappen isn't in a car.
I am not a particular fan of Jos (although I don't dislike him, either),
but I think that the Arrows chassis may have been problematic. Aguri
Suzuki, the Japanese ex-Arrows F1 driver, had a chance to try the 1996
Arrow chassis in tyre testing for Bridgestone, and mentioned that the car
had a very nervous and unpredictable front end, and that he had great
respect for Jos'1996 results in such a handful of a car. Suzuki also
mentioned that the Arrows chassis that he used when still driving for the
team also exhibited this sort of behavior, so this might be one of the
characteristics of Alan Jenkins designs in general. Suzuki may not be the
world's best driver, but at least he has the benefit of hands-on experience
on which to base his comments.
Best regards
Jonathan C
--
Without comprehension, knowledge is nothing.
Bert Heitzer
Mike Beal <mb...@hookup.net> schreef in artikel
<328DF7...@hookup.net>...
> Jasper Verschut wrote:
> > Why is everyone so negative about Jos Verstappen? etc. etc.
>
> Because he had a terrible season.
>
> Now Jasper, and the rest of Holland: we know you love your boy, and your
> support for him is admirable. But for heaven's sake, it's about
> PERFORMANCE and RESULTS. Yes, he had a sub-standard car; yes he had a
> lot of breakdowns. But he also crashed out of a number of races through
> his own errors.
So did Schumacher, Hill, Alesi Couldhart and many others. But Jos crashed
only 2 times by his own fault. Where was Hill in Spain ??? He pissed his
pants ! And who drove at Monza in the tires??? It was Hill !!! But because
he had an excellent car, he managed to score points in the other races. Jos
didn't have that opportunity because of his powerless car. So now everbody
says, Hill is a good driver, Verstappen is shit.
What if Hill drove the Arrows this year and Jos the Williams. Then Jos
wouldn't have to take so many risks as he did this year. Then everybody
would say: Jos? What a great driver. Hill, Power shit...
Bert
Christine Johnston
In article <328F05...@cistron.nl> Jasper Verschut, sjo...@cistron.nl
writes:
>The only time he crashed out by an error on his side was in spain, after
>that his fine teamboss tom you know who talked about a "problem in the
>driver's right foot" wel wel wel that is realy a positive atitude
>towards your driver who gave you your first and only point.
If Walkinshaw hadn't stepped in and paid Hart for the engines for Arrows
to use in South America Verstappen wouldn't have been in a position to
get that one point. Or be driving in any race after Melbourne come to
that - he'd have been in another belly-up team.
Pascal Faessen
David Atkinson wrote:
>
> Jasper Verschut wrote:
> >
> > Why is everyone so negative about Jos Verstappen?
> > Well now everyone is talking about arrows like it's one of the topteams
> > because Damon Hill was stuppid enough to sign a contract there (was it
> > for the money or couldn't he get a beter deal?) but it still is nothing
> > more than a bunch of losers with the biggest "power" horse of them all,
> > Tom you know who.
> > Arrows just used this year to save some money and develop their car
> > (that's not so stupid) but they should have had more respect for their
> > drivers and they should not have send them on the track with second
> > grade materials (wich almost costed Jos his live a few times).
> > wasn't the car it was Jos. Well anyone who believes that could be a
> > member of the arrows team.
> >
> > (sauber, jorden or tyrrel) and we will see who has the last laugh.
> >
> > stopped sponsoring.
> > There is just no contract at this moment.
>
>
> --
You are right!
And he's not the only one.
--
'`;,,,, `;;;;; ,,,,,, ,,,,,, ,,,, ,,,,,;
;;;;;, ;;;; , ';;; ;; ' ;;' ,;; ''
,;;';;;; ;;;;;; ,; ;;;;, ;; ,,; ;; ;;
,;;' ';;;;,;' ;;;; ,;;;' ;;;; ';,,,;; ;; ';;,
,;;' ';;;; ;;;; '' '' '''`; ,''' ''''''''
,;;' ;;;; ;;;;.
,;;; ;;;; ;;;;;. T h e G a t h e r i n g
,;''' ;;'' ````````
` ' P. Faessen
Pascal Faessen
Great post. I'm with you man.
Mitchell McCann
Pascal Faessen <P.J.F...@amc.uva.nl> added a line and signed:
>--
> '`;,,,, `;;;;; ,,,,,, ,,,,,, ,,,, ,,,,,;
> ;;;;;, ;;;; , ';;; ;; ' ;;' ,;; ''
> ,;;';;;; ;;;;;; ,; ;;;;, ;; ,,; ;; ;;
> ,;;' ';;;;,;' ;;;; ,;;;' ;;;; ';,,,;; ;; ';;,
> ,;;' ';;;; ;;;; '' '' '''`; ,''' ''''''''
> ,;;' ;;;; ;;;;.
> ,;;; ;;;; ;;;;;. T h e G a t h e r i n g
> ,;''' ;;'' ````````
> ` ' P. Faessen
Do you have planning permission for that sig.?
--
The F1 FAQ on the Web
http://www.ultranet.com/~mitchmcc
Henk Smulders
Mike Beal wrote:
>
> Jasper Verschut wrote:
> > Why is everyone so negative about Jos Verstappen? etc. etc.
>
> Because he had a terrible season.
>
> Now Jasper, and the rest of Holland: we know you love your boy, and your
> support for him is admirable. But for heaven's sake, it's about
> PERFORMANCE and RESULTS. Yes, he had a sub-standard car; yes he had a
> lot of breakdowns. But he also crashed out of a number of races through
> his own errors.
>
> his outstanding performances and good results. My mind remains open,
> that he could still be a good'un, but it's up to him to show me.
>
> --Mike
Well Mike, I'll give it a try.
AUSTRALIA:
12'th spot on the grid, after one lap 11'th. (passed Panis).
In lap 10 on 10'th place. In lap 13 first pit stop, returns in place 16.
In lap 15 The Hart engine blows up.
BRASIL:
13'th spot on the grid, after one lap 8'th. (Remember the rain?)
after lap 2 in 7'th and after lap 3 in 6'th place. Lap 4 costs him 2 places so
back in 8'th again. During the next 12 laps he and Hill trade the fastest lap
record for the race 5 times. Lap 19, Engine failure.
ARGENTINE:
7'th on the grid. 6'th at the finish.
EUROPE, 13'th spot on the grid. After 5 laps 10'th. In lap 38 the gear box breaks down.
IMOLA, 14'th spot on the grid. After 1 lap 10'th. In lap 38 (9'th position) in the
pits. Here the 'lolly-pop' incident happens.
CANADA, 13'th spot on the grid. After 1 lap 11'th, after 2 laps 10'th. Lap 10, engine
failure.
MONACO, 12'th spot on the grid. Starts on slicks, and crashes in the first corner.
Jos said its a result of a sligth bump from Hakkinen. You could argue about that,
so well say 'driver error'. (thats one)
SPAIN, Another race in the rain. 13'th spot on the grid. after one lap 12'th, two laps
11'th, and after 3 laps 8'th position. After 8 laps 7'th. 33 laps - 6'th position,
going in the pits. 34 laps 7'th again. After 47 laps (in 5'th position) He spins.
End of race, second driver error.
FRANCE, 15'th on the grid. After one lap 11'th. In the 11'th lap, a steering rod
breaks.
Crash, and end of race.
ENGLAND, The max revs of the Hart engine are set 500 revs lower. (again).
15'th on the grid, 10'th at the finish. The teams conclusion is: its possible to drive
the race to an end, but it will be impossible to score points this way.
GERMANY, 17'th on the grid. First lap, an incident with Herbert. The front wing is
gone, and the clutch is burned. End of race. (Driver error three ?)
HUNGARY, 17'th on the grid. (there has been no development to the car this year, so he
slowely slides back on the grid).
Lap 1, Diniz, Salo, Verstappen and Lamy hit eachother. Salo an Diniz are out.
The rear suspension of Verstappen is damaged. In lap 11 it breaks. End of race.
BELGIUM, 16'th on the grid. After one lap 13'th place. In lap 17, (on 11'th place), his
front suspension breaks. crash, Jos in hospital. (remember pace car situation?)
ITALY, 15'th on the grid. Lap one 14'th, Lap 2 12'th, lap 5 11'th, lap 6 10'th,
lap 7 9'th, lap 8 8'th position. Finishing in 8 position.
PORTUGAL, 16'th on the grid, lap 1 14'th position. lap 47, in 12'th position, engine
blow up.
JAPAN, 17'th on the grid. 11'th at the finish.
So, I see three driver errors in 16 races.
Here the summary,
Driver error 3
Accident 1 (maybe two, but I counted one of them as driver error)
Engine failure 4
Gear box 1
Car failure 2 (steering rod and suspension failure)
Team failure 1
Finished 4 races (1 point)
Maybe we should take the conclusion that Tom Walkinshaw in future should do
something about development of the car during the year. And replace some of
the parts now and then, instead of letting his drivers race in cars that,
if they don't break up at high speed because of wear and tear, at least are
a danger to driver and public.
Opinions expressed here are my own, and in no way have to reflect the opinions
of the company I work for.
Hope we will see a great F1 season in 1997.
Greetings, Henk.
David Atkinson
Bert Heitzer wrote:
> What if Hill drove the Arrows this year and Jos the Williams. Then Jos
> wouldn't have to take so many risks as he did this year. Then everybody
> would say: Jos? What a great driver. Hill, Power shit...
>
> Bert
Interesting rhetoric...
I'm curious as to whether anyone believes if Verstappen could have ran a
'94 Ligier to a possible-4th position on the grid, as Damon Hill did
last week.
Jos Borgdorff
On Sat, 16 Nov 1996 12:20:19 -0500, Mike Beal <mb...@hookup.net>
wrote:
>Jasper Verschut wrote:
>> Why is everyone so negative about Jos Verstappen? etc. etc.
>
>Because he had a terrible season.
>
>Now Jasper, and the rest of Holland: we know you love your boy, and your
>support for him is admirable. But for heaven's sake, it's about
>PERFORMANCE and RESULTS. Yes, he had a sub-standard car; yes he had a
>lot of breakdowns. But he also crashed out of a number of races through
>his own errors.
Did`nt Berger do the samething???
Andre Molyneux
I think Verstappen has proved several times this year that he can drive
a car damned quick. The times he was setting in practice at Melbourne
(when the surface lacked rubber buildup, not allowing the top cars to
put down all of their power), and his race-laps in Brazil in the rain,
show that he's got speed. The questions seem to revolve around whether
or not he's got the patience and judgement to make it to the top.
It's possible that Verstappen dug his own grave with Arrows earlier in
the season. To address the large number of DNF's, Jos said that he had
to push hard all the time (despite the risk of accidents and mechanical
failures from pushing too hard) in order to attract the attention of one
of the top teams. The way I read it (I think it was in a guest column
for Autosport), it sounded as though he was only interested in his goal -
getting noticed by a better team. The team's goals (like bringing the
car home) didn't seem to be an issue.
Some comments by Tom Walkinshaw in the past month or two seem to support
this interpretation. With any driver/team combination, both sides have
to be getting what they want out of the partnership. If the team felt
that Verstappen didn't care what the team wanted, they may not have
been very receptive to his needs. Couple this with the reports of Jos'
manager demanding $5 million for '97 during the middle part of the year,
and it's not hard to see why other F1 teams aren't rushing to sign him
up. Even if they're not true, rumours that a driver isn't a team player
and his agent wants ridiculous sums may have scuttled his chances else-
where.
Jos Verstappen has shown flashes of potential, but he hasn't yet become
a proven performer (like a Schumacher, Hill, Villeneuve, or even
Hakkinen now that he's calmed down). Given a top car he might be able
to match them (his limited stint at Benneton is tough to judge), but
first he's got to convince someone that he's worthy of that seat. If
he can land any seat, he needs to put in solid performances, including
nursing home a fragile car rather than pushing it until it self-
destructs. He also needs to address the problems with his manager.
If the rumours aren't true, he needs to squelch them. If they are,
he needs to find another manager.
By showing speed _and_ judgement, he might have a shot. Right now,
he'd probably lose out to more consistant drivers like Salo if a
seat were to open up in the "big four".
Andre
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Andre Molyneux Sun Microsystems Computer Company
Return path: and...@eng.sun.com "Sun Quentin" Menlo Park, California
David Atkinson
Thank you Andre for that accurate and unbiased analysis of Jos
Verstappen's situation. That is the only level-headed thing I've seen
come out of this thread.
Driesjan de Lange
Christine Johnston <chr...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
CJ> If Walkinshaw hadn't stepped in and paid Hart for the engines for Arrows
CJ> to use in South America Verstappen wouldn't have been in a position to
CJ> get that one point. Or be driving in any race after Melbourne come to
CJ> that - he'd have been in another belly-up team.
FYI Walkinshaw stepped in after Argentina where Verstappen got the only point
for Arrows last season. ;-)
After that the car stayed pretty much the same and others develloped.... so
from there on you can see the decline in performance...
--
Greetinx...
3s...@langspar.worldonline.nl / FidoNet: 2:284/506.10
Thomas Gmuer
Henk Smulders <smul...@axpcom.uto.dec.com> wrote:
Very good Henk!
For the first time not only stupid comments but real facts!
Let me add my comments to it:
> AUSTRALIA:
> 12'th spot on the grid, after one lap 11'th. (passed Panis).
> In lap 10 on 10'th place. In lap 13 first pit stop, returns in place 16.
> In lap 15 The Hart engine blows up.
That means he only passed Panis. Not impressive.
> BRASIL:
> 13'th spot on the grid, after one lap 8'th. (Remember the rain?)
> after lap 2 in 7'th and after lap 3 in 6'th place. Lap 4 costs him 2 places so
> back in 8'th again. During the next 12 laps he and Hill trade the fastest lap
> record for the race 5 times. Lap 19, Engine failure.
Here we have the Highlight of his career. Really impressive!
> ARGENTINE:
> 7'th on the grid. 6'th at the finish.
Won two places by others drivers faults, and lost one to Irvine. Not
impressive.
> EUROPE, 13'th spot on the grid. After 5 laps 10'th. In lap 38 the gear box
> breaks down.
Alesi spun off, Berger in pits, only one position really won. Not
impressive.
> IMOLA, 14'th spot on the grid. After 1 lap 10'th. In lap 38 (9'th
> position) in the pits. Here the 'lolly-pop' incident happens.
Good start this time, but not impressive during the race.
> CANADA, 13'th spot on the grid. After 1 lap 11'th, after 2 laps 10'th.
> Lap 10, engine failure.
Both Ferraris ahead of JV off in Lap 2. Not impressive.
> MONACO, 12'th spot on the grid. Starts on slicks, and crashes in the first
> corner. Jos said its a result of a sligth bump from Hakkinen. You could
> argue about that, so well say 'driver error'. (thats one)
Keke Rosberg did it once in Monaco just like Jos. He managed to win, Jos
didn't manage the first corner! Not impressive at all.
> SPAIN, Another race in the rain. 13'th spot on the grid. after one lap
> 12'th, two laps 11'th, and after 3 laps 8'th position. After 8 laps 7'th.
> 33 laps - 6'th position, going in the pits. 34 laps 7'th again. After 47
> laps (in 5'th position) He spins. End of race, second driver error.
Sounds great: Salo starts from the pits, Coulthard, Panis, Irvine out on
first lap. Fact: Jos lost 2 Positions! Not impressive.
> FRANCE, 15'th on the grid. After one lap 11'th. In the 11'th lap, a
> steering rod breaks. Crash, and end of race.
Won 3 postions on the start (Shumi out), but not very impressive during
the race.
> ENGLAND, The max revs of the Hart engine are set 500 revs lower. (again).
> 15'th on the grid, 10'th at the finish. The teams conclusion is: its
> possible to drive the race to an end, but it will be impossible to score
> points this way.
5 cars ahead of JV retired. No position won. Not impressive.
> GERMANY, 17'th on the grid. First lap, an incident with Herbert. The front
> wing is gone, and the clutch is burned. End of race. (Driver error three
> ?)
Anyway. Not impressive.
> HUNGARY, 17'th on the grid. (there has been no development to the car this
> year, so he slowely slides back on the grid). Lap 1, Diniz, Salo,
> Verstappen and Lamy hit eachother. Salo an Diniz are out. The rear
> suspension of Verstappen is damaged. In lap 11 it breaks. End of race.
Not impressive too.
> BELGIUM, 16'th on the grid. After one lap 13'th place. In lap 17, (on
> 11'th place), his front suspension breaks. crash, Jos in hospital.
> (remember pace car situation?)
Start incindent removes 4 cars ahead of Jos. Fact: Lost 1 position in
lap 1. Gets 2 back. Not very impressive.
> ITALY, 15'th on the grid. Lap one 14'th, Lap 2 12'th, lap 5 11'th, lap 6
> 10'th, lap 7 9'th, lap 8 8'th position. Finishing in 8 position.
Coulthard (off Lap 1), Panis (2), Häkkinen (3, Pits), Berger (4), Hill
(5), Villeneuve (troubles only). Fact: Jos won only 1 position. Not
impressive.
> PORTUGAL, 16'th on the grid, lap 1 14'th position. lap 47, in 12'th
> position, engine blow up.
3 drivers ahead of JV in troubles, only 1 position won. Not impressive.
> JAPAN, 17'th on the grid. 11'th at the finish.
6 drivers ahead of Jos out of the race, no postion won. Not impressive.
Here's my summary
Not impressive: 12
Not very impressive: 3
Really impressive: 1
> Hope we will see a great F1 season in 1997.
Hope so too.
R.W. van den Brink
> > Jasper Verschut wrote:
> >
> > > The only time he (Verstappen) crashed out by an error on his side was in spain,
According to Jos Verstappen hinself this is not true. He said that he
had to leave a race early through a driver error about three times. (he
said this in a live interview on a moto sport fair in the Netherlands).
It might be true that the car became worse towards the end of the
season, but the only thing Jos did was complain to the press. Maybe, if
he had been a little more loyal, he would still be a TWR driver, instead
of unemployed.
Ruud van de Brink
University : Leiden University.
Organisation: Leiden Institute of Chemistry, Gorlaeus Laboratories.
Address: Einsteinweg 55 / P.O. Box 9502 2300RA, Leiden The
Netherlands.
Phone: +31 71 274284
TeleFax: +31 71 274488
Department: Center for Chemitry and the Environment
I.J.W. Cleuren
Thomas Gmuer (tg...@tinet.ch) wrote:
<snip>
: Not impressive: 12
: Not very impressive: 3
: Really impressive: 1
in 1996 ? That way we could compare Jos (no seat) with Heinz-Harald
(top team seat). You don't seem to think that passing someone is an
impressive act. I disagree. How many drivers have passed other drivers
on more than one or two occasions (not counting passing in the pits)?
So, give me stats on some other driver that you think impressive (and
please don't give me Villeneuve or Schumacher, coz I know they are
good), and we'll continue the conversation...
cheers
Ivo
: > Hope we will see a great F1 season in 1997.
: Hope so too.
I fully agree !
Damjan
Henk Smulders wrote:
> Here the summary,
>
> Driver error 3
> Accident 1 (maybe two, but I counted one of them as driver error)
> Engine failure 4
> Gear box 1
> Car failure 2 (steering rod and suspension failure)
> Team failure 1
> Finished 4 races (1 point)
>
> Hope we will see a great F1 season in 1997.
>
> Greetings, Henk.
Excellent post. I hope all people involved in this conversation will
read it. Now, this is quiet an average rate of mistakes comitted. Plus,
take into account that he has no drive secured (when WC Hill was in this
position he drove like shit, sorry), he doesn't have or lacks the
support from team (desputes with TW...) and finally his moral is way way
way down, no work done on the car. And it (car) brakes almost all the
time, one of which times could cost him his life. He constantly feels
like shit. I think for this year, Jos' reaults are actually quite good.
And to add another thing, in the article I read in Autosport, written by
Nick Wright (sp?), who talks abouty Simtek, he has nothing bad to say
about JV. Only praise, and how great Jos is......
So I think Jos more then deserves the seat in F1...
Damjan
PS Sory for unusually bad English (meaning that it's usually pretty bad,
but that this time it is actually even worse..)
Marcel Burggraeve
On Tue, 19 Nov 1996 02:17:00 +0100, tg...@tinet.ch (Thomas Gmuer)
wrote:
>Henk Smulders <smul...@axpcom.uto.dec.com> wrote:
>
>Very good Henk!
>
>For the first time not only stupid comments but real facts!
>Let me add my comments to it:
>
Stupid comments cut away.
>
>Here's my summary
>
>Not impressive: 12
>Not very impressive: 3
>Really impressive: 1
>
ROTFL
How much beer did you drink when you wrote this down ?
When you say not impressive it's the way you personally think, nothing
more nothing less.
By the way, look up the word objective in your dictoniary, maybe you
can still learn something.
>> Hope we will see a great F1 season in 1997.
>
>Hope so too.
Carved upon my stone, my body lie but still I roam
Marcel Burggraeve
aka Pearl_Jam on irc ( mostly #dutch and #delta )
Webpage : http://www.cistron.nl/~graeve
Marcel Burggraeve
On 19 Nov 1996 13:48:30 GMT, info...@kub.nl (I.J.W. Cleuren) wrote:
>Thomas Gmuer (tg...@tinet.ch) wrote:
><snip>
>: Not impressive: 12
>: Not very impressive: 3
>: Really impressive: 1
>Why don't you give us an account of (say) Frentzen and his performance
>in 1996 ? That way we could compare Jos (no seat) with Heinz-Harald
>(top team seat). You don't seem to think that passing someone is an
>impressive act. I disagree. How many drivers have passed other drivers
>on more than one or two occasions (not counting passing in the pits)?
>
>So, give me stats on some other driver that you think impressive (and
>please don't give me Villeneuve or Schumacher, coz I know they are
>good), and we'll continue the conversation...
>
Oops, now you really caught him.
Just saying the following : that you think impressive
That's the whole which is wrong in his comments, they're not objective
but only his own thoughts.
Marcel Burggraeve
>> > Jasper Verschut wrote:
>> >
>> > > The only time he (Verstappen) crashed out by an error on his side was in spain,
>
>According to Jos Verstappen hinself this is not true. He said that he
>had to leave a race early through a driver error about three times. (he
>said this in a live interview on a moto sport fair in the Netherlands).
>It might be true that the car became worse towards the end of the
>season, but the only thing Jos did was complain to the press. Maybe, if
>he had been a little more loyal, he would still be a TWR driver, instead
>of unemployed.
>
You don't really believe this do you ?
When you get a car like the Arrows and it just isn't developed anymore
the only thing you can do is try to get another team for the next
year.
Maybe the team should have been more loyal to him and give him a
contract for next season early last season.
Jasper Verschut
Olof Stom
Hello jspe...@winternet.com,
17-Nov-96, jspe...@winternet.com wrote to All about Re: What is wrong
with Jos
Verstappen?
> Jasper Verschut wrote:
>> The only time he crashed out by an error on his side was in spain,
after
>> that his fine teamboss tom you know who talked about a "problem in the
>> driver's right foot" wel wel wel that is realy a positive atitude
>> towards your driver who gave you your first and only point.
>> I think that tom will be sorry he dumped Jos when Jos passes rich boy
>> Pedro Diniz (Oh yeah he was not signed for his money..) for the second
>> time in one race.
> The Verstappen crowd is missing the point; Jos hasn't done anything to
> justify confidence that he can perform. It doesn't matter whose fault
it is
No, why not?
> may be totally unfair but there is simply no evidence that he can
drive
> competitively.
One year in formula ford: champion
one year in f3: champion
next year straight into f1, there hassn't been another driver who
came in f1 after only 2 years of motorcarracing!
Rookie in f1: 2 times third place and 10 points overall. Still you
say he can't drive competitively?????? You must be out of your
mind.
> Personally I don't think its completely unfair. The reason we all get
so
> passionate about our drivers is we all believe that the driver makes a
> difference. If, as has been asserted, Verstappen's performance is
They do make some difference, but not all.
> completely and solely due to the car and if, as been asserted, Hill's
> performace is equally completely and solely due to the car, then
there is
> no reason to care who is driving. The results will be determined by
> the engineers and no one else. I truly hope we haven't gotten to that
> point yet.
No it's a combination, but the one with the best car has the most
chance to win, If you look back in time all drivers that won the
Championship were in one of the three best cars of that moment.
That proves something. If you let Someone like Schumacher (the best
at this time) drive in a forti, he will never win a race if the car
doesn't improve spectecular over the season.
> Whatever, I doubt Walkenshaw is going to get an opportunity to see
> Verstappen pass Diniz if Verstappen isn't in a car.
His career ain't over yet boy!
CU!
Olof Stom
Hello mb...@hookup.net,
16-Nov-96, mb...@hookup.net wrote to All about Re: What is wrong with Jos
Verstappen?
> Jasper Verschut wrote:
>> Why is everyone so negative about Jos Verstappen? etc. etc.
> Because he had a terrible season.
> Now Jasper, and the rest of Holland: we know you love your boy, and
your
> support for him is admirable. But for heaven's sake, it's about
> PERFORMANCE and RESULTS. Yes, he had a sub-standard car; yes he had a
> lot of breakdowns. But he also crashed out of a number of races
through
> his own errors.
Don't they all??
> Don't ask me to enumerate them. Rather, you convince me: tell me about
> his outstanding performances and good results. My mind remains open,
> that he could still be a good'un, but it's up to him to show me.
Why are you posting messages about formula one, if you doesn't
watch races for yourself? If you do that you can see for yourself
what outstanding performances he can deliver.
> --Mike
CU!
Christine Johnston
In article <GoldED.19961119...@langspar.worldonline.nl>
Driesjan de Lange, 3s...@langspar.worldonline.nl writes:
>Christine Johnston <chr...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> CJ> If Walkinshaw hadn't stepped in and paid Hart for the engines for Arrows
> CJ> to use in South America Verstappen wouldn't have been in a position to
> CJ> get that one point. Or be driving in any race after Melbourne come to
> CJ> that - he'd have been in another belly-up team.
>
>FYI Walkinshaw stepped in after Argentina where Verstappen got the only point
>for Arrows last season. ;-)
No. Although he hadn't done the deal with Arrows to take over the team
he made a preliminary agreement with Oliver before South America and paid
Hart for the engines to keep the team ticking over until the deal was
done. Hart had refused to give Arrows any engines in South America until
he saw some money. Arrows was bust.
>
>After that the car stayed pretty much the same and others develloped.... so
>from there on you can see the decline in performance...
>
True. But this was always going to happen even if Arrows stayed afloat
and TW didn't step in. Small teams just don't have the means for rapid
season development and lots of testing that goes with it. Its like
Tyrrell; start the season good, finish crap. But Jos got to drive a car
all season instead of just for the first race. He may not have liked TWR
putting no effort into the car but it must have been better than no car
at all.
gunfire
reeu...@cp.tn.tudelft.nl (Kees van Reeuwijk) wrote:
>Of course, more is needed to be a good driver, but I can see why
>people consider him fast.
>IMHO he has been very unlucky in his choice of drives: Simtek went
>belly up last year halfway through the season, and this year Arrows
>stopped development mid-season. The worst moment was when Arrows tried
>this new Hart engine of which everyone had such high hopes, and it
>turned out to be even worse than the old one. It hasn't been hear of
>since, and they changed very little to the car after that.
Since TW entered Arrows, there was nothing going on with developing
the car.
TW had his view on 1997, so nothing happened really to the car.
With that attitude no one can drive a good race.
In my oppinion TW hasn't done his very best on better performing the
arrows in 1996.
You cannot blame any driver for that.
Cu
gunfire
Thomas Gmuer
I.J.W. Cleuren <info...@kub.nl> wrote:
> So, give me stats on some other driver that you think impressive (and
> please don't give me Villeneuve or Schumacher, coz I know they are
> good), and we'll continue the conversation...
Too much work since i can get the facts only by watching every race
again. Next season i have full access to the TAG-Heuer-Timings and can
give you all the stats you want.
One example Spain in the Rain:
Start: Frentzen 11 - Verstappen 13
Lap 1: Frentzen 9 (+2) - Verstappen 12 (0)
Salo (qualifyed between Frentzen/Verstappen) stalled engine
Lap 8: Frentzen 6 (+1) - Verstappen 7 (+3)
Panis retired/Herbert onto gravel (all ahead of both)
Lap 15: Frentzen 6 (0) - Verstappen 10 (-3)
Lap 22: Frentzen 6 (0) - Verstappen 7 (+1)
Verstappen passed Häkkinen (Diniz/Brundle in troubles)
Lap 32: Frentzen 5 (0) - Verstappen 6 (0)
Alesi into Pits
Lap 34: Both into pits - Alesi ahead again
Lap 35: Frentzen 6 (0) - Verstappen 7 (0)
Lap 46: Frentzen 5 (0) - Verstappen 6 (0)
Barrichello into pits
Lap 47: Frentzen 4 (0) - Verstappen 5 (0)
Berger retired
Lap 48: Frentzen 4 (0) - Verstappen spins
Final : Frentzen 4th (3 points) - Verstappen DNF
If we look at this we see Frentzen passing 3 cars, Verstappen di better
with 4 cars. But Verstappen made 2 errors, one of them cost him two
points (and mybe a contract). Frentzen made none, get points (and maybe
a top seat).
Do you understand why i not rated Jos' race as impressive.
Thomas
--
Stefan Jonsson
Marcel Burggraeve wrote:
>
> That's the whole which is wrong in his comments, they're not objective
> but only his own thoughts.
>
Dear Marcel,
Objective.
Look up that word please. It looks stupid when one uses words one do not
understand the true meaning of.
Thomas has made a good and objective look into Jos results this year.
Sorry the outcome wasn't to your liking.
Monaco.. what was that dútch man doing? "Driver fault" looks more like
idiot move from my angle.
stefan.jonsson
Patrick Dogge
This mail really sucks!!!! you can't compare Jos's worst race and Frentzens best!!!!
This is totally unfair... And for your information JOS will drive in F1 next
year. He even has the opportunity to choose between two teams. Both SAUBER and
Tyrell want Jos to race for them, next year!!!
Adios...
Tero Turtiainen
gra...@cistron.nl (Marcel Burggraeve) writes:
>On Tue, 19 Nov 1996 02:17:00 +0100, tg...@tinet.ch (Thomas Gmuer)
>wrote:
>>Let me add my comments to it:
>>
>Stupid comments cut away.
>>
>>Here's my summary
>>
>>Not very impressive: 3
>>Really impressive: 1
>>
>How much beer did you drink when you wrote this down ?
>When you say not impressive it's the way you personally think, nothing
>more nothing less.
Well, looking at the facts Thomas posted, I pretty much agree with him. I
dont think it is too impressive when you go from 15th position to 10th in
2 laps because 5 cars in front of you go out.
And who thinks Jos was impressive? You? It is just the way you personally
think... :)
>By the way, look up the word objective in your dictoniary, maybe you
>can still learn something.
And you are objective? :)
--
<-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=->
< Tero Turtiainen | Yes Sir, may I lick your boots or do your Highness >
< turt...@lut.fi | use dry cleaning? - Stone >
<-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=->
Marcel Burggraeve
On 20 Nov 1996 11:40:51 +0200, turt...@taipaani.cc.lut.fi (Tero
Turtiainen) wrote:
>gra...@cistron.nl (Marcel Burggraeve) writes:
>>On Tue, 19 Nov 1996 02:17:00 +0100, tg...@tinet.ch (Thomas Gmuer)
>>wrote:
>>>For the first time not only stupid comments but real facts!
>>>Let me add my comments to it:
>>>
>>Stupid comments cut away.
>>>
>>>Here's my summary
>>>
>>>Not impressive: 12
>>>Not very impressive: 3
>>>Really impressive: 1
>>>
>>ROTFL
>>How much beer did you drink when you wrote this down ?
>>When you say not impressive it's the way you personally think, nothing
>>more nothing less.
>
>Well, looking at the facts Thomas posted, I pretty much agree with him. I
>dont think it is too impressive when you go from 15th position to 10th in
>2 laps because 5 cars in front of you go out.
>
>And who thinks Jos was impressive? You? It is just the way you personally
>think... :)
>
I didn't say he was driving impressive but between impressive and not
impressive is alot of difference and that's why I'm a little bit
pissed of when I read that kind of postings.
It is impressive if you drive in F1.
>>By the way, look up the word objective in your dictoniary, maybe you
>>can still learn something.
>
>And you are objective? :)
>--
Yes I am.
I didn't say he was being impressive but only said that not impressive
isn't objective.
Marcel Burggraeve
On Wed, 20 Nov 1996 02:04:01 +0100, tg...@tinet.ch (Thomas Gmuer)
wrote:
>I.J.W. Cleuren <info...@kub.nl> wrote:
Yeah sure, go ahead and take only one race to 'prove' your point.
Very impressive.
Marcel Burggraeve
>Marcel Burggraeve wrote:
>>
>> That's the whole which is wrong in his comments, they're not objective
>> but only his own thoughts.
>>
>
>Dear Marcel,
>
>Objective.
>
>Look up that word please. It looks stupid when one uses words one do not
>understand the true meaning of.
>
As far as I'm concerned objective is when you look at something
without having a meaning about it in advance.
>Thomas has made a good and objective look into Jos results this year.
>Sorry the outcome wasn't to your liking.
>
According to me he didn't and now I'm being objective.
>Monaco.. what was that dútch man doing? "Driver fault" looks more like
>idiot move from my angle.
>
Yeah sure and all the other drivers are perfect.
No human person is perfect and everyone makes mistakes.
Jasper Verschut
Marcel Burggraeve wrote:
>
> On 20 Nov 1996 11:40:51 +0200, turt...@taipaani.cc.lut.fi (Tero
> Turtiainen) wrote:
>
> >gra...@cistron.nl (Marcel Burggraeve) writes:
> >>wrote:
> >>>For the first time not only stupid comments but real facts!
> >>>Let me add my comments to it:
> >>>
> >>Stupid comments cut away.
> >>>
> >>>Here's my summary
> >>>
> >>>Not impressive: 12
> >>>Not very impressive: 3
> >>>Really impressive: 1
> >>>
> >>ROTFL
> >>How much beer did you drink when you wrote this down ?
> >>When you say not impressive it's the way you personally think, nothing
> >>more nothing less.
> >
> >Well, looking at the facts Thomas posted, I pretty much agree with him. I
> >dont think it is too impressive when you go from 15th position to 10th in
> >2 laps because 5 cars in front of you go out.
> >
> >And who thinks Jos was impressive? You? It is just the way you personally
> >think... :)
> >
> I didn't say he was driving impressive but between impressive and not
> impressive is alot of difference and that's why I'm a little bit
> pissed of when I read that kind of postings.
> It is impressive if you drive in F1.
Except if you name is Diniz
>
> >>By the way, look up the word objective in your dictoniary, maybe you
> >>can still learn something.
> >
> >And you are objective? :)
> >--
> Yes I am.
> I didn't say he was being impressive but only said that not impressive
> isn't objective.
>
Jasper Verschut
Marcel Burggraeve wrote:
>
> On Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:31:10 -0800, Stefan Jonsson
> <stafan....@mailbox.swipnet.se> wrote:
>
> >Marcel Burggraeve wrote:
> >>
> >> That's the whole which is wrong in his comments, they're not objective
> >> but only his own thoughts.
> >>
> >
> >Dear Marcel,
> >
> >Objective.
> >
> >Look up that word please. It looks stupid when one uses words one do not
> >understand the true meaning of.
> >
> As far as I'm concerned objective is when you look at something
> without having a meaning about it in advance.
>
> >Thomas has made a good and objective look into Jos results this year.
> >Sorry the outcome wasn't to your liking.
> >
> According to me he didn't and now I'm being objective.
>
> >Monaco.. what was that dútch man doing? "Driver fault" looks more like
> >idiot move from my angle.
> >
> Yeah sure and all the other drivers are perfect.
> No human person is perfect and everyone makes mistakes.
And you must admit he has a great hart to try this (eventhough it was a
bit silly, but the team also has something to say I think)
Christine Johnston
In article <3291fd57...@news.cistron.nl> Marcel Burggraeve,
gra...@cistron.nl writes:
>You don't really believe this do you ?
>When you get a car like the Arrows and it just isn't developed anymore
>the only thing you can do is try to get another team for the next
>year.
Whether it was owned by Oliver or TW, Arrows was never going to be
developed this year. Jos signed on to do a job with what he knew was a
bottom of the rung team. Spending your year driving the car in such a
way as to attract a better job wouldn't have endeared him to his team and
it didn't attract a better job. Jos got bad advice there.
>Maybe the team should have been more loyal to him and give him a
>contract for next season early last season.
>
But he was offered one, wasn't he? And his stupid manager wanted $5
million, didn't he? And when no top jobs opened up and TW signed Hill
and looked to be going places he was suddenly very interested in the
crappy No 2 job. Even Pedro had the smarts to see that TWR was a
happening place to be and took his money from Ligier to go there. Jos
had been working for them nearly all year - he and his manager must have
seen the factory operation at Leafield and their plans for 97. A more
experienced driver announces they are extremely impressive and signs on
the spot. What had Jos been looking at? The Touring Car section?
Thomas Gmuer
Marcel Burggraeve <gra...@cistron.nl> wrote:
> How much beer did you drink when you wrote this down ?
> When you say not impressive it's the way you personally think, nothing
> more nothing less.
What do you think? I didn't speak for all people here!
> By the way, look up the word objective in your dictoniary, maybe you
> can still learn something.
<PERSONAL ATTACK>
A lot of people may say that about me, but definetly NOT YOU! With your
ignorant posts, you fillup every Verstappen-Thread. Most often your
replays are about 3 lines long and as soon someone came up with facts
correcting you're post, you quit. But i have never seen a relevant new
fact on any subject discussed. At least, i did my homework before
responding. So please piss off if you don't want to discuss, or
participate. You didn't do a favour to Jos (or other dutchs) with your
stupid comments.
</PERSONAL ATTACK>
To all the others, have a nice day
Thomas
--
Thomas Gmuer
Patrick Dogge <P.J.C...@bwk.tue.nl> wrote:
> This mail really sucks!!!! you can't compare Jos's worst race and
> This Frentzens best!!!! is totally unfair...
I tried to be fair, and used a wet race, because both drivers did well.
And as i said Jos passed even 1 car more than HHF! How could this be his
worst race (besides of Monaco and Germany where Jos crashed in Lap 1)?
But go ahead. Take another race and post it here. I know it needs some
work. More than just flaming me. Go ahead do it!!!
Thomas
--
Stefan Jonsson
My god you are in need for thearphy.
Jos is not God! How do you watch races? By that new DSF system where you
only follow one car all the time?
What will you Dutch fanatics do when you get another driver into F1?
I like Jos. I hate Dutch fans.
Ihink Jos would like to have been from some other country when he reads
your idiot postings. You are not helping his case.
stefan.jonsson
stefan.Jonsson
Marcel Burggraeve
On Thu, 21 Nov 1996 02:09:53 +0100, tg...@tinet.ch (Thomas Gmuer)
wrote:
>Marcel Burggraeve <gra...@cistron.nl> wrote:
I'll say about what I want and I don't give a shit if you like it or
not.
Talking about ignorant, Ive posted the results of last season a couple
of times with all the reasons why he spun off and you're calling me
ignorant ? ( these postings were more then 3 lines by the way )
Tell me about the facts to which I don't reply ?
I'll reply to every fact which isn't a fact but a true lie.
Since there are alot of lies told about Jos I have to reply alot of
times and most of these 'facts' are too stupid too spend more then 3
lines on them.
Shut up you lamer I did post a lot of facts but am damned sure you
didn't read them or just read them the way you want to.
Do you mean calling his races impressive are facts ??
You really have to go back to school they might even tell you have to
write I instead of i.
By the way I hate people who lie, watch this from one of your previous
posts :
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> So, give me stats on some other driver that you think impressive (and
> please don't give me Villeneuve or Schumacher, coz I know they are
> good), and we'll continue the conversation...
Too much work since i can get the facts only by watching every race
again. Next season i have full access to the TAG-Heuer-Timings and can
give you all the stats you want.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In this piece of yours you tell you can get the facts but you don't
have the time.
In the posting which I'm replying to now you're telling the following
----------------------------------------------------------------------
At least, i did my homework before responding.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Seek the difference between the two pieces and then tell me again you
did do your homework.
By the way this reply is alot more lines.
You're allso telling me I don't reply to facts, I can see you can
really jugde this because you do the same thing.
Marcel Burggraeve
I hate people like you.
Ross Clement
Christine Johnston (chr...@dircon.co.uk) wrote:
: No. Although he hadn't done the deal with Arrows to take over the team
: he made a preliminary agreement with Oliver before South America and paid
: Hart for the engines to keep the team ticking over until the deal was
: done. Hart had refused to give Arrows any engines in South America until
: he saw some money. Arrows was bust.
Hmmm. Could this mean that if Arrows had been in a better financial
state that Tom Walkinshaw might have purchased Forti? If so, would
Damon have signed?
Cheers,
Ross-c
Obi
On Wed, 20 Nov 1996 02:04:01 +0100, tg...@tinet.ch (Thomas Gmuer)
wrote:
>>I.J.W. Cleuren <info...@kub.nl> wrote:
>>
>>> So, give me stats on some other driver that you think impressive (and
>>> please don't give me Villeneuve or Schumacher, coz I know they are
>>> good), and we'll continue the conversation...
>>
>>Too much work since i can get the facts only by watching every race
>>again. Next season i have full access to the TAG-Heuer-Timings and can
>>give you all the stats you want.
>>
>>One example Spain in the Rain:
>>
>>Start: Frentzen 11 - Verstappen 13
>>Lap 1: Frentzen 9 (+2) - Verstappen 12 (0)
>> Salo (qualifyed between Frentzen/Verstappen) stalled engine
>>Lap 8: Frentzen 6 (+1) - Verstappen 7 (+3)
>> Panis retired/Herbert onto gravel (all ahead of both)
>>Lap 15: Frentzen 6 (0) - Verstappen 10 (-3)
>>Lap 22: Frentzen 6 (0) - Verstappen 7 (+1)
>> Verstappen passed Häkkinen (Diniz/Brundle in troubles)
>>Lap 32: Frentzen 5 (0) - Verstappen 6 (0)
>> Alesi into Pits
>>Lap 34: Both into pits - Alesi ahead again
>>Lap 35: Frentzen 6 (0) - Verstappen 7 (0)
>>Lap 46: Frentzen 5 (0) - Verstappen 6 (0)
>> Barrichello into pits
>>Lap 47: Frentzen 4 (0) - Verstappen 5 (0)
>> Berger retired
>>Lap 48: Frentzen 4 (0) - Verstappen spins
>>
>>Final : Frentzen 4th (3 points) - Verstappen DNF
>>
>>If we look at this we see Frentzen passing 3 cars, Verstappen di better
>>with 4 cars. But Verstappen made 2 errors, one of them cost him two
>>points (and mybe a contract). Frentzen made none, get points (and maybe
>>a top seat).
>>
>>Do you understand why i not rated Jos' race as impressive.
I actually think that keeping up with Frentzen, who's driving a better car, in
a Arrows is pretty impressive. Jos made a mistake and went off, but until
that point his race has been very impressive. He is a very good racer who
needs to learn something about controling himself.
- Obi
John Zyzniewski
Damjan wrote:
>
> Henk Smulders wrote:
> various others added their views....
Perhaps because we are not as nationalistic as Europeans in Australia, I
find it hard to see this whole debate getting anywhere!
Yes, Jos V is a good driver - he must be better than most to get a
Superlicence.
Yes, he has not had a good run lately. Yes, he may not drive next year
for whatever reason.
Yes all his loyal Dutch fans will complain about this.
No this will not make a scrap of difference to their beliefs in his
greatness or to whether he will get a seat next next year.
End of story.
--
John Zyzniewski (joh...@powerup.com.au) Sunny Queensland, Australia
* Motorsport Fire Marshal * Ayrton Senna Forever *
"When I race, I race to win. If you are content to settle for second
or third place, you are not racing, you are no longer a racing driver"
Ayrton Senna da Silva 1960-1994
Thomas Gmuer
Marcel Burggraeve <gra...@cistron.nl> wrote:
> I'll say about what I want and I don't give a shit if you like it or
> not.
This is the freedom of speech, you (and i) have!
> Shut up you lamer I did post a lot of facts but am damned sure you
> didn't read them or just read them the way you want to.
Just as you want them to be true.
> By the way I hate people who lie, watch this from one of your previous
> posts :
[stuff deleted, read the previous posting]
> Seek the difference between the two pieces and then tell me again you
> did do your homework.
Thanks for the quote. I'm not having Alzheimer yet, but it seems you get
the story wrong. Finishing your homework, means not posting truely (and
objective) false stuff, like Rosset finishing last in all races. Telling
that i don't have the time to do stats only to please you, isn't false.
> By the way this reply is alot more lines.
I'm proud of you. This is exactly what i tried to get from you. This has
been a reply i'd like to see, instead of you usual "ROTFL" Messages. I
don't agree with the content, but it shows you could if you want.
> You're allso telling me I don't reply to facts, I can see you can
> really jugde this because you do the same thing.
The balls are now yours! Come along with stats for another race and post
it here. I know it needs some work. More than just flaming me. Go ahead
do it!!!
Prove me, i'm wrong!
(Parts of this message are only a copy of my mail to Patrick Dogge, who
didn't deliver yet)
Thomas
--
Frans Bouma
Marcel Burggraeve wrote:
>
> On Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:26:30 -0800, Stefan Jonsson
> <stafan....@mailbox.swipnet.se> wrote:
>
> >My god you are in need for thearphy.
> >
> >Jos is not God! How do you watch races? By that new DSF system where you
> >only follow one car all the time?
> >
> >What will you Dutch fanatics do when you get another driver into F1?
> >
> >I like Jos. I hate Dutch fans.
> >Ihink Jos would like to have been from some other country when he reads
> >your idiot postings. You are not helping his case.
> >
> I hate people like you.
laat die eikel lekker zn drek kakken, pearl
hij is ut niet waard.. hij vindt ut lekker om te flamen, vooral
over Jos Verstappen. dat doet ie nu al bijna 7 maanden.
:) C ya on IRC :)
Otis, #dutch warrior
Tero Turtiainen
gra...@cistron.nl (Marcel Burggraeve) writes:
>On Thu, 21 Nov 1996 02:09:53 +0100, tg...@tinet.ch (Thomas Gmuer)
>wrote:
>><PERSONAL ATTACK>
...
>></PERSONAL ATTACK>
>I'll say about what I want and I don't give a shit if you like it or
>not.
You look like an idiot when you shout like that ;-)
>Tell me about the facts to which I don't reply ?
>I'll reply to every fact which isn't a fact but a true lie.
Well, you didnt reply to my (lets say) facts in October about JJ Lehtos
testing accident, you said it was caused by him trying to be quicker than
Jos Verstappen. I replied to it and said what we finns know about it but
you did not bother to reply to it. Well, I guess you realised you were
wrong :)
If you want to try to reply to the article, it can be found in Deja News
(http://www.dejanews.com/) by entering the words "Tero Turtiainen
Jos Verstappen JJ Lehto" to the quick search text field and then selecting
the article written by me (turt...@taipaani.cc.lut.fi) :-)
>Shut up you lamer I did post a lot of facts but am damned sure you
>didn't read them or just read them the way you want to.
You seem to be so friendly :-)
Marcel Burggraeve
On Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:44:36 +0100, Frans Bouma <per...@xs4all.nl>
wrote:
>
> laat die eikel lekker zn drek kakken, pearl
> hij is ut niet waard.. hij vindt ut lekker om te flamen, vooral
> over Jos Verstappen. dat doet ie nu al bijna 7 maanden.
>
> :) C ya on IRC :)
>
>
> Otis, #dutch warrior
LOL :-)
Tuurlijk maar als ik snachts van me werk kom vind ik het leuk om hier
een beetje te 'zieken' zo afentoe ;-)
Ik zie het als een soort sport ofzo.
Cu on IRC ja.
Marcel Burggraeve
On Fri, 22 Nov 1996 00:39:33 +0100, tg...@tinet.ch (Thomas Gmuer)
wrote:
>Marcel Burggraeve <gra...@cistron.nl> wrote:
>
>> I'll say about what I want and I don't give a shit if you like it or
>> not.
>
>This is the freedom of speech, you (and i) have!
>
>> Shut up you lamer I did post a lot of facts but am damned sure you
>> didn't read them or just read them the way you want to.
>
>Just as you want them to be true.
>
Sure, go to dejanews and look for my name.
You'll I posted the results of all the races and the reasons why Jos
didn't or did finish.
With your last remark your just turning this discussion in a yes/no
game, you'll say I lie and I'll say you lie.
I don't like that kind of discussions.
>
>Thanks for the quote. I'm not having Alzheimer yet, but it seems you get
>the story wrong. Finishing your homework, means not posting truely (and
>objective) false stuff, like Rosset finishing last in all races. Telling
>that i don't have the time to do stats only to please you, isn't false.
>
I didn't post about Diniz being last in all races, read the messages
again.
>> By the way this reply is alot more lines.
>
>I'm proud of you. This is exactly what i tried to get from you. This has
>been a reply i'd like to see, instead of you usual "ROTFL" Messages. I
>don't agree with the content, but it shows you could if you want.
>
I did a search on dejanews on your name and it surprised me ( or
didn't ) that allmost alot of your postings have to do with Verstappen
and.
Coincidence or do you just hate him ?
>> You're allso telling me I don't reply to facts, I can see you can
>> really jugde this because you do the same thing.
>
>The balls are now yours! Come along with stats for another race and post
>it here. I know it needs some work. More than just flaming me. Go ahead
>do it!!!
>
>Prove me, i'm wrong!
>
I posted all of the results last year a couple of times and I'm not
going to do it again.
Certainly not after reading : >Just as you want them to be true.
This says enough about the way you think about me and it would be
useless to post something because you would deny it anyway.
If you really want to see my postings with facts, make a search at
dejanews because I'm not going to spend anymore of my time in posting
the same things over and over again.
Marcel Burggraeve
On 20 Nov 1996 10:12:41 GMT, Christine Johnston <chr...@dircon.co.uk>
wrote:
>In article <3291fd57...@news.cistron.nl> Marcel Burggraeve,
>gra...@cistron.nl writes:
>>You don't really believe this do you ?
>>When you get a car like the Arrows and it just isn't developed anymore
>>the only thing you can do is try to get another team for the next
>>year.
>
>Whether it was owned by Oliver or TW, Arrows was never going to be
>developed this year. Jos signed on to do a job with what he knew was a
>bottom of the rung team. Spending your year driving the car in such a
>way as to attract a better job wouldn't have endeared him to his team and
>it didn't attract a better job. Jos got bad advice there.
>
I do agree with you but not all the way.
When a season starts or has started you have to make decisions.
These can turn out right or wrong but that also has to do a lot with
luck.
It's easy to say he made a bad decision when the season it's over.
Too easy I think but that's my opinion.
>>Maybe the team should have been more loyal to him and give him a
>>contract for next season early last season.
>>
>But he was offered one, wasn't he? And his stupid manager wanted $5
>million, didn't he? And when no top jobs opened up and TW signed Hill
>and looked to be going places he was suddenly very interested in the
>crappy No 2 job. Even Pedro had the smarts to see that TWR was a
>happening place to be and took his money from Ligier to go there. Jos
>had been working for them nearly all year - he and his manager must have
>seen the factory operation at Leafield and their plans for 97. A more
>experienced driver announces they are extremely impressive and signs on
>the spot. What had Jos been looking at? The Touring Car section?
I don't know but I have strong feeling the 5 million story just isn't
true.
Offcourse I don't know for sure but a few magazines told that it was
just a stupid rumour.
A more experienced driver was fired and had no seat, I don't know how
much money he gets for this deal but I have a strong feeling it has to
do more with the money than the team.
But maybe I'm wrong.
I don't know what he was looking but maybe he just didn't have too
much confidence in arrows after all those parts which broke during
races and his terrible accident at Spa.
But there's still hope, not all the seats are taken and he is still
talking with a few teams.
Marcel Burggraeve
On 22 Nov 1996 13:16:54 +0200, turt...@taipaani.cc.lut.fi (Tero
Turtiainen) wrote:
>
>>Tell me about the facts to which I don't reply ?
>>I'll reply to every fact which isn't a fact but a true lie.
>
>Well, you didnt reply to my (lets say) facts in October about JJ Lehtos
>testing accident, you said it was caused by him trying to be quicker than
>Jos Verstappen. I replied to it and said what we finns know about it but
>you did not bother to reply to it. Well, I guess you realised you were
>wrong :)
>
I only replied because it was a yes/no game and asked you about these
facts you said you had.
I asked you about the facts and said that MAYBE we could discuss it.
Discussing is only usefull if you were telling lies.
Satisfied ?
Here is the post by the way :
gra...@cistron.nl (Marcel Burggraeve) writes:
>On 4 Oct 1996 08:42:53 +0300, turt...@taipaani.cc.lut.fi (Tero
>Turtiainen) wrote:
>>3s...@langspar.worldonline.nl (Driesjan de Lange) writes:
>>>Noone it's just a fact that during testing at Silverstone Verstappen was faster
>>>and Lehto tried to hard and went of hard...
>>Ok. This settles it all. If some fans of a Dutch F1-racer keep on posting
>>things like "stop lying about this F1-racer" and then they post things like
>>this, I think I have seen enough. Do we need rec.autos.sport.f1.humor?
>How easy this answer.
>Why don't you post your real facts if you're so sure about them ?
>Maybe we can discuss them.
Ok. To my knowledge JJ Lehto crashed just because it was getting
darker, the
track was damp and he spun. I dont think Jos Verstappen had nothing to
do
with it. This is the information I have. Now I wonder what are your
"real
facts" if you're so sure that the crash occured because JJ was trying
to
beat Verstappen. I would definitely like to see those facts.
This crash happened one week after the Benetton team for 1994 was
announced.
McLaren and Footwork were interested in Verstappens services but
Benetton
got him. I am not even sure had Verstappen driven the 1994 Benetton
car
when JJ had his testing accident.
>At least some people here in r.a.s.f1 have the guts to defend a driver
>when he's been treaten unfair.
Yeah, like JJ is now being treaten... :)
>People like you only make jokes and denie the facts but I can't
>remember a posting with facts from the opposite side.
From opposite side? Are we on a war or something? I think the poster
who
posted that completely new (to me) theory about the reason for JJ:s
testing
accident made a BAD joke. So maybe that way we are on the opposite
side.
He makes bad jokes about JJ that to my knowledge are based on BS and I
react to it by asking for where he heard it.
If somebody can confirm that theory about JJ:s accident then I have to
say
that I have "denied the facts".
Mike Beal
Olof Stom wrote:
> Hello mb...@hookup.net,
> >> Why is everyone so negative about Jos Verstappen? etc. etc.
>> Now Jasper, and the rest of Holland: we know you love your boy, and
>> your support for him is admirable. But for heaven's sake, it's about
>> PERFORMANCE and RESULTS. Yes, he had a sub-standard car; yes he had a
>> lot of breakdowns. But he also crashed out of a number of races
>> through his own errors.
>> Don't ask me to enumerate them. Rather, you convince me: tell me about
>> his outstanding performances and good results. My mind remains open,
>> that he could still be a good'un, but it's up to him to show me.
> Why are you posting messages about formula one, if you doesn't
> watch races for yourself? If you do that you can see for yourself
> what outstanding performances he can deliver.
Huh?? Afraid I don't quite follow that one, Olie. Maybe you should read
what I wrote again.
I watched every race three times over. They don't show much of the sixth
to twenty-second cars, unless they're doing something very good or very
bad. I saw more shots of Jos's Arrows off the track than on.
I got nothing against the guy, I'm just still waiting to "see for
<myself> what outstanding performances he can deliver."
But heck, Olie, you and me don't matter! Philips have withdrawn their
money, and he still ain't got a ride. It's a tough game.
--Mike Beal (ducking for cover from the Dutch artillery)
Marco Jacobs
I think it is only fair to translate these posts for the english
reading readers. Usenet is public forum, right ? I'll try to be as
accurate as possible.
Marcel Burggraeve <gra...@cistron.nl> wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:44:36 +0100, Frans Bouma <per...@xs4all.nl>
> wrote:
> > laat die eikel lekker zn drek kakken, pearl
> > hij is ut niet waard.. hij vindt ut lekker om te flamen, vooral
> > over Jos Verstappen. dat doet ie nu al bijna 7 maanden.
Let the dickhead nicely shit his own shit, pearl
He is not worth it. He likes to flame, especially
about Jos Verstappen. He has been doing it for almost 7
months now.
> > :) C ya on IRC :)
> >
> > Otis, #dutch warrior
> LOL :-)
> Tuurlijk maar als ik snachts van me werk kom vind ik het leuk om hier
> een beetje te 'zieken' zo afentoe ;-)
> Ik zie het als een soort sport ofzo.
Of course, but when I get home from work at night, I like to 'make-
people-sick' here once in a while ;-)
I see it as a kind of sport or something like that.
> Cu on IRC ja.
>
>Carved upon my stone, my body lie but still I roam
>Marcel Burggraeve
>aka Pearl_Jam on irc ( mostly #dutch and #delta )
back to racing discussions,
--Marco Jacobs
Marcel Burggraeve
At least I'm glad you allso translated the wink ;-) because otherwise
people may think I really meant what I said there.
Carved upon my stone, my body lie but still I roam
Marcel Burggraeve
aka Pearl_Jam on irc ( mostly #dutch and #delta )
Webpage : http://www.cistron.nl/~graeve
Marcel Burggraeve
On Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:49:29 GMT, o...@xs4all.nl (Obi) wrote:
No use talking to him, he keeps on comparing two totally different
cars.
Offcourse it's impressive to keep up with a better car but still there
alot of people who only look at the dnf's and further nothing.
Luckily for the F1 drivers the team managers do look further, if they
had the same opinion about the drivers as the opinions in rasf1 maybe
there would be only 1 or 2 cars on the grid ;-)
Marcel Burggraeve
On Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:53:08 -0500, Mike Beal <mb...@hookup.net>
wrote:
>Olof Stom wrote:
>> Hello mb...@hookup.net,
>> >> Why is everyone so negative about Jos Verstappen? etc. etc.
>
>>> Now Jasper, and the rest of Holland: we know you love your boy, and
>>> your support for him is admirable. But for heaven's sake, it's about
>>> PERFORMANCE and RESULTS. Yes, he had a sub-standard car; yes he had a
>>> lot of breakdowns. But he also crashed out of a number of races
>>> through his own errors.
>
>>> Don't ask me to enumerate them. Rather, you convince me: tell me about
>>> his outstanding performances and good results. My mind remains open,
>>> that he could still be a good'un, but it's up to him to show me.
>
>> Why are you posting messages about formula one, if you doesn't
>> watch races for yourself? If you do that you can see for yourself
>> what outstanding performances he can deliver.
>
>
>Huh?? Afraid I don't quite follow that one, Olie. Maybe you should read
>what I wrote again.
>
>I watched every race three times over. They don't show much of the sixth
>to twenty-second cars, unless they're doing something very good or very
>bad. I saw more shots of Jos's Arrows off the track than on.
>
That's indeed because of the very bad tv coverage.
>I got nothing against the guy, I'm just still waiting to "see for
><myself> what outstanding performances he can deliver."
>
Only look at his lap times with a crappy car like the arrows and you
should understand what Olof means.
>But heck, Olie, you and me don't matter! Philips have withdrawn their
>money, and he still ain't got a ride. It's a tough game.
>
The thing about Philips is until now still a stupid rumour.
Philips hasn't decided anything until now.
It's true he still hasn't got a ride but it's allso true there are
still a few seats left ;-)
Olli-Pekka Mahlamaki
Marcel Burggraeve <gra...@cistron.nl> wrote:
>Offcourse it's impressive to keep up with a better car but still there
>alot of people who only look at the dnf's and further nothing.
>Luckily for the F1 drivers the team managers do look further
I guess they did look further, as far as I know Jos still doesn't
have a seat for 1997?
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
© OoPee 'Say no more' Olli-Pekka...@helsinki.fi
==============================================================================
Thomas Gmuer
Marcel Burggraeve <gra...@cistron.nl> wrote:
> >This is the freedom of speech, you (and i) have!
> >
> >> Shut up you lamer I did post a lot of facts but am damned sure you
> >> didn't read them or just read them the way you want to.
Where is Olof Stom? He once said, there are friendly people in the
Netherlands! Are there two Netherlands?
> Sure, go to dejanews and look for my name.
> You'll I posted the results of all the races and the reasons why Jos
> didn't or did finish.
Henk Smulders made an intelligent posting, shows how Jos won positions.
Unfortunately he forget to tell us how many other drivers retired at
that time. I checked this out, to learn if maybe (just maybe) i am wrong
about Jos. I wasn't! Then i posted exactly the stats, who therefore have
not been so positive at all. Then Ivo Cleuren asked to compare Jos with
Frentzen and i did it!
> >Prove me, i'm wrong!
> >
> I posted all of the results last year a couple of times and I'm not
> going to do it again.
To see the results and why the drivers retired i can check out "Gale
Force". Thanks for your offer! THIS IS ABOUT THE COMPARISON OF TWO
DRIVERS! DO IT OR SHUT UP!
You should maybe (just maybe) first read a post. Then translate it into
dutch, and then try to understand it. If you don't understand it, you
maybe (just maybe) better don't reply. Otherwise maybe (you know
"Freedom of speech" just maybe) you are the fool.
Thomas
--
Thomas Gmuer
Marcel Burggraeve <gra...@cistron.nl> wrote:
> Discussing is only usefull if you were telling lies.
This is my personal "Line Of The Year". Worth to think about, isn't it?
Thomas
--
Thomas Gmuer
Marco Jacobs <jac...@cs.unc.edu> wrote:
Thanks for the translation of Marcel's comment.
>
> Of course, but when I get home from work at night, I like to 'make-
> people-sick' here once in a while ;-)
> I see it as a kind of sport or something like that.
Even with the smile, we'll now know he's not a fanatic. But Kiddies like
to play, and this Kid's playground is the Usenet.
Thomas
--
Joose Niemisto
Marcel Burggraeve <gra...@cistron.nl> wrote:
>On Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:44:36 +0100, Frans Bouma <per...@xs4all.nl>
>wrote:
>
>>
>> laat die eikel lekker zn drek kakken, pearl
>> hij is ut niet waard.. hij vindt ut lekker om te flamen, vooral
>> over Jos Verstappen. dat doet ie nu al bijna 7 maanden.
>>
>>
>>
>> Otis, #dutch warrior
>LOL :-)
>Tuurlijk maar als ik snachts van me werk kom vind ik het leuk om hier
>een beetje te 'zieken' zo afentoe ;-)
>Ik zie het als een soort sport ofzo.
>
when applying ROT13 did not clarify the message :-D
And yes, this happens to be a true story.....
-Joose
--
# Joose Niemisto # joo...@iki.fi # http://www.iki.fi/joosen/ #
Key fingerprint = FE 0C 76 B6 65 A4 32 43 95 35 31 91 F6 C1 28 25
"While you're waiting, read the free novel we sent you.
It's a Spanish story about a guy named `Manual'" - Dilbert
Marcel Burggraeve
On 24 Nov 1996 21:08:35 +0200, mahl...@cc.helsinki.fi (Olli-Pekka
Mahlamaki) wrote:
>Marcel Burggraeve <gra...@cistron.nl> wrote:
>>Offcourse it's impressive to keep up with a better car but still there
>>alot of people who only look at the dnf's and further nothing.
>>Luckily for the F1 drivers the team managers do look further
>
> I guess they did look further, as far as I know Jos still doesn't
> have a seat for 1997?
>
LOL, not.
As far as I know there are still a few seats left for 1997.
And fyi I wasn't talking about Jos, I was talking about F1 drivers in
general, don't know where you read the name of Jos ?????
Bert Heitzer
Olli-Pekka Mahlamaki <mahl...@cc.helsinki.fi> schreef in artikel
<57a6fj$7...@myntti.Helsinki.FI>...
> Marcel Burggraeve <gra...@cistron.nl> wrote:
> >Offcourse it's impressive to keep up with a better car but still there
> >alot of people who only look at the dnf's and further nothing.
> >Luckily for the F1 drivers the team managers do look further
>
> I guess they did look further, as far as I know Jos still doesn't
> have a seat for 1997?
>
> --
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> © OoPee 'Say no more'
Olli-Pekka...@helsinki.fi
>
============================================================================
==
>
We'll see !!!!
Marcel Burggraeve
On Mon, 25 Nov 1996 02:06:25 +0100, tg...@tinet.ch (Thomas Gmuer)
wrote:
>Marcel Burggraeve <gra...@cistron.nl> wrote:
>
>> >This is the freedom of speech, you (and i) have!
>> >
>> >> Shut up you lamer I did post a lot of facts but am damned sure you
>> >> didn't read them or just read them the way you want to.
>
>Where is Olof Stom? He once said, there are friendly people in the
>Netherlands! Are there two Netherlands?
>
Even friendly people can get angry.
>> Sure, go to dejanews and look for my name.
>> You'll I posted the results of all the races and the reasons why Jos
>> didn't or did finish.
>
>Henk Smulders made an intelligent posting, shows how Jos won positions.
>Unfortunately he forget to tell us how many other drivers retired at
>that time. I checked this out, to learn if maybe (just maybe) i am wrong
>about Jos. I wasn't! Then i posted exactly the stats, who therefore have
>not been so positive at all. Then Ivo Cleuren asked to compare Jos with
>Frentzen and i did it!
>
Start of the race in Budapest : Jos overtook 2 cars immediately but
both of them drove into the back of his car in the second corner.
Offcourse making a start and overtaking 2 cars isn't impressive in
your opinion.
>> >Prove me, i'm wrong!
>> >
>> I posted all of the results last year a couple of times and I'm not
>> going to do it again.
>
>To see the results and why the drivers retired i can check out "Gale
>Force". Thanks for your offer! THIS IS ABOUT THE COMPARISON OF TWO
>DRIVERS! DO IT OR SHUT UP!
>
How many friendly people are there in your country and why are you
shouting ?
John D. Owen
Patrick Dogge wrote:
And for your information JOS will drive in F1 next
> year. He even has the opportunity to choose between two teams. Both SAUBER and
> Tyrell want Jos to race for them, next year!!!
Verstappen certainly doesn't have a choice between Sauber and Tyrrell:
Sauber will probably have to take either Larini or Morbidelli as the
second driver in order to get the Ferrari engine deal properly sewn up.
Rumour still has Verstappen on Jordan's list, though. I suspect when
push comes to shove, Jordan may settle on Brundle again, though, as
Peugeot and B&H seem happy with Brundle, and they need a more
experienced driver alongside Schuey Jr.
JDO
gunfire
tg...@tinet.ch (Thomas Gmuer) wrote:
>Where is Olof Stom? He once said, there are friendly people in the
>Netherlands! Are there two Netherlands?
Yep :-)
Cu
Gunfire
Marcel Burggraeve
On Mon, 25 Nov 1996 02:06:34 +0100, tg...@tinet.ch (Thomas Gmuer)
wrote:
>Marco Jacobs <jac...@cs.unc.edu> wrote:
My other playground is the F1 circuits a couple of times a year.
Just fyi.
Marcel Burggraeve
On Mon, 25 Nov 1996 02:06:45 +0100, tg...@tinet.ch (Thomas Gmuer)
wrote:
>Marcel Burggraeve <gra...@cistron.nl> wrote:
>
>> Discussing is only usefull if you were telling lies.
>
>This is my personal "Line Of The Year". Worth to think about, isn't it?
>
Wow, where's the rest of the article ?
By the way, I thought about it and that's why I wrote that line.
Did you see you even posted only one line why you were accusing me of
writing 3 lines or less ?
Thomas Gmuer
Marcel Burggraeve <gra...@cistron.nl> wrote:
> Even friendly people can get angry.
> Start of the race in Budapest : Jos overtook 2 cars immediately but
> both of them drove into the back of his car in the second corner.
> Offcourse making a start and overtaking 2 cars isn't impressive in
> your opinion.
Yes, he had a great start! Not as good as Alesi in Monza, but good
enough to pass Diniz and Salo. And yes, Diniz chrashed into his back
after Diniz has been touched by Jos' Teammate! But he spun off in Lap
11. I don't know if this had something to with that problem in the 2nd
corner, but according to his postrace interview on Eurosport not even
Jos knows!
Courtesy of Mike E. Brown here are the Box Scores for the 1996 season:
15 P. Diniz 2 16 6 6 - - 607 2981.140 - - - - - 2
16 J. Verstappen 1 16 4 6 - - 500 2353.622 - - - - - 1
> >Prove me, i'm wrong!
> >To see the results and why the drivers retired i can check out "Gale
> >Force". Thanks for your offer! THIS IS ABOUT THE COMPARISON OF TWO
> >DRIVERS! DO IT OR SHUT UP!
> >
> How many friendly people are there in your country and why are you
> shouting ?
Must be a lot. Tons of dutch caravans are stopping by every season:-)
But i shout because you still haven't delivered any facts. Patrick Dogge
didn't either but at least he stopped boring us! Or, could it be that in
actual fact you're not quite so sure on this matter?
Thomas
--
Thomas Gmuer
Marcel Burggraeve <gra...@cistron.nl> wrote:
> Wow, where's the rest of the article ?
The Netiquette says to quote only the stuff worth it.
> By the way, I thought about it and that's why I wrote that line.
^^^^^^^
You're kidding?
> Did you see you even posted only one line why you were accusing me of
> writing 3 lines or less ?
Sometimes less is more, and you're quote says it all!
Thomas
--
Marcel Burggraeve
On Wed, 27 Nov 1996 23:22:05 +0100, tg...@tinet.ch (Thomas Gmuer)
wrote:
>Marcel Burggraeve <gra...@cistron.nl> wrote:
>
>> Even friendly people can get angry.
>
>> Start of the race in Budapest : Jos overtook 2 cars immediately but
>> both of them drove into the back of his car in the second corner.
>> Offcourse making a start and overtaking 2 cars isn't impressive in
>> your opinion.
>
>Yes, he had a great start! Not as good as Alesi in Monza, but good
>enough to pass Diniz and Salo. And yes, Diniz chrashed into his back
>after Diniz has been touched by Jos' Teammate! But he spun off in Lap
>11. I don't know if this had something to with that problem in the 2nd
>corner, but according to his postrace interview on Eurosport not even
>Jos knows!
>
Offcourse he didn't know in a postrace interview, they had to examine
all the computer results and the car at first.
Later on Jos and his team both stated that his car was damaged because
of the accident.
After the race they even found parts off his car at that seconds
corner.
I'm really surprised by the way because I'm hearing something new this
time.
Until now I never heard about Rosset hitting Diniz and I'm quite sure
this didn't happen.
By the way, both Diniz AND Salo touched Jos.
>Courtesy of Mike E. Brown here are the Box Scores for the 1996 season:
>
>15 P. Diniz 2 16 6 6 - - 607 2981.140 - - - - - 2
>16 J. Verstappen 1 16 4 6 - - 500 2353.622 - - - - - 1
>
>> >Prove me, i'm wrong!
>
>> >To see the results and why the drivers retired i can check out "Gale
>> >Force". Thanks for your offer! THIS IS ABOUT THE COMPARISON OF TWO
>> >DRIVERS! DO IT OR SHUT UP!
>> >
>> How many friendly people are there in your country and why are you
>> shouting ?
>
>Must be a lot. Tons of dutch caravans are stopping by every season:-)
>But i shout because you still haven't delivered any facts. Patrick Dogge
>didn't either but at least he stopped boring us! Or, could it be that in
>actual fact you're not quite so sure on this matter?
>
>Thomas
>--
Marcel Burggraeve
>Marcel Burggraeve <gra...@cistron.nl> wrote:
>
>> Even friendly people can get angry.
>
>> Start of the race in Budapest : Jos overtook 2 cars immediately but
>> both of them drove into the back of his car in the second corner.
>> Offcourse making a start and overtaking 2 cars isn't impressive in
>> your opinion.
>
>Yes, he had a great start! Not as good as Alesi in Monza, but good
>enough to pass Diniz and Salo. And yes, Diniz chrashed into his back
>after Diniz has been touched by Jos' Teammate! But he spun off in Lap
>11. I don't know if this had something to with that problem in the 2nd
>corner, but according to his postrace interview on Eurosport not even
>Jos knows!
>
>Courtesy of Mike E. Brown here are the Box Scores for the 1996 season:
>
>15 P. Diniz 2 16 6 6 - - 607 2981.140 - - - - - 2
>16 J. Verstappen 1 16 4 6 - - 500 2353.622 - - - - - 1
>
What's with these figures ?
Offcourse I know them but what are you trying to prove here ?
Marcel Burggraeve
On Thu, 28 Nov 1996 01:30:19 +0100, tg...@tinet.ch (Thomas Gmuer)
wrote:
>Marcel Burggraeve <gra...@cistron.nl> wrote:
>
>> Wow, where's the rest of the article ?
>
>The Netiquette says to quote only the stuff worth it.
>
Offcourse but the rest was allso worth quoting but you probably didn't
like the rest.
After seeing several personal attacks I finally found out what you're
really doing here ( first I gave you the benefit of the doubt ).
You're not a F1 fan but you're only here to insult other people (
right now I'm your target ) and F1 drivers who deserve better.
If I look back in r.a.s.f1 allmost all the follow ups you place here
have to do with Jos or arrows and you're not even a fan of one of
them.
This is enough prove for me and from now I don't read your pieces
anymore so stop wasting your time on me, it's no use.
Stefan Jonsson
Dear Marcel.
Thomas IS a F1 fan.
You are a Jos Verstappen fan.
That's a big difference.
stefan.jonsson
Frans Bouma
There are 2 persons who are anti jos verstappen fanatics
you and some australian guy.
I don't know WHAT it is that turns you on, but
it has to be something with kicking jos verstappen back
in the dirt. How cheap.
behave, or go away, newbie
Otis, a Jos verstappen Fan
Mark J. Frusciante
Frans Bouma <per...@xs4all.nl> scrivened:
->Stefan Jonsson wrote:
->> Dear Marcel.
->> Thomas IS a F1 fan.
->> You are a Jos Verstappen fan.
->> That's a big difference.
-> There are 2 persons who are anti jos verstappen fanatics
-> you and some australian guy.
-> I don't know WHAT it is that turns you on, but
-> it has to be something with kicking jos verstappen back
-> in the dirt. How cheap.
-> behave, or go away, newbie
-> Otis, a Jos verstappen Fan
Like Stefan wrote: A big difference indeed...
(Or, "The endstages of the complete JBG-ization of RASF1...)
Mark
http://www.pipeline.com/~opus
"I love sleep, my life tends to fall apart when I'm awake." - John Hemingway
Thomas Gmuer
Marcel Burggraeve <gra...@cistron.nl> wrote:
> >15 P. Diniz 2 16 6 6 - - 607 2981.140 - - - - - 2
> >16 J. Verstappen 1 16 4 6 - - 500 2353.622 - - - - - 1
> >
> What's with these figures ?
> Offcourse I know them but what are you trying to prove here ?
Me? Nothing! Everyone (off course you're not included) can notice what
it means. As long as don't want to see the truth you should continue to
see your psychiatrist.
Thomas
--
Thomas Gmuer
Marcel Burggraeve <gra...@cistron.nl> wrote:
> >Yes, he had a great start! Not as good as Alesi in Monza, but good
> >enough to pass Diniz and Salo. And yes, Diniz chrashed into his back
> >after Diniz has been touched by Jos' Teammate! But he spun off in Lap
> >11. I don't know if this had something to with that problem in the 2nd
> >corner, but according to his postrace interview on Eurosport not even
> >Jos knows!
> >
> Offcourse he didn't know in a postrace interview, they had to examine all
> the computer results and the car at first. Later on Jos and his team both
> stated that his car was damaged because of the accident. After the race
> they even found parts off his car at that seconds corner. I'm really
> surprised by the way because I'm hearing something new this time. Until
> now I never heard about Rosset hitting Diniz and I'm quite sure this
> didn't happen.
As Pedro Diniz told the rest of us (you didn't hear it?): "Someone
touched the back of my car". And guess who was behind him?
Now it's upon you to rewind the tape, and never ever tell again, you
couldn't learn something from me.
Thomas
--