Old Monza track: banked turns?
Peter Burke
which must be set around 1970. The last race in that
movie was held at Monza, which had little in common with
the track I know from the last 10 years or more. It had
at least one overpass and a HUGE banked turn. When did
they stop running there? Also: does anyone have a GIF
of the old track layout? This thing looked fascinating!
Rich Shipley
: Last night I saw an old movie (Grand Prix wth James Garner),
They probably stopped due to the type of accident depicted in the movie.
Also, that is definitely the best movie about auto racing ever made (IMHO
of course).
Rich
Dirk VanGelder
: Last night I saw an old movie (Grand Prix wth James Garner),
: which must be set around 1970. The last race in that
: movie was held at Monza, which had little in common with
: the track I know from the last 10 years or more. It had
: at least one overpass and a HUGE banked turn. When did
: they stop running there? Also: does anyone have a GIF
: of the old track layout? This thing looked fascinating!
Those banked curves are incredible to see up close, it's difficult
to even climb all the way to the top because they're so steep. It's
scary to think of cars going off the top of those things.
-Dirk
VINCENT B HO
: Last night I saw an old movie (Grand Prix wth James Garner),
The bank turn/oval was the so-called 10km combined circuit. The oval
is still very imposing today....
They used to race the entire 10 km circuit during the 50s. The oval
itself was also used for Indy car racing (featuring the likes of
Jimmy Bryan and Roger Ward, etc.)
The oval was quite dangerous (low barriers). And drivers consider
it dangerous to race.
Then in 1959, Jean Behra went overboard and was killed in Avus, another
European style oval in Berlin.
Ever sicne then , the drivers no longer wanted to race the oval part.
They even organized a boycott (1960 I GP), with the GP ending up
with no British-based competitors (incl. WC Brabham), but saw Phil
Hill's first win.
They ran the 10km circuit for the very last time in 1961.
As uall know, it is not a race to be remembered fondly with...
so from then on, the I GP would abandon its oval.
Cheers,
Vince
Michael Haller
>Peter Burke (Pbu...@doit.wisc.edu) wrote:
>: Last night I saw an old movie (Grand Prix wth James Garner),
>: which must be set around 1970. The last race in that
>: movie was held at Monza, which had little in common with
>: the track I know from the last 10 years or more. It had
>: at least one overpass and a HUGE banked turn. When did
>: they stop running there? Also: does anyone have a GIF
>: of the old track layout? This thing looked fascinating!
This is the same Monza they use today, they just don't use the banked
bit any more. You can still see were the banked part of the circuit starts
and ends. From memory...have a look on the right of the track just passed
the pits. That is the entrance to the first banked curve. My understanding
is that a lap at Monza in the old days meant going down pit straight twice.
Each lap would alternate between going onto the banked bit or off into the
forested section (the bit used today). The banked section rejoins the current
track at the beiginning of pit straight on the outside of that wonderful
bend...eh, ...I can't think of its name. After coming off the banked section
the cars would stay on the left-hand side of pit straight and go off towards
the lesmo section. The next time they entered pit straight (via that curve)
they would be on the right of pit straight which lead onto the banked
section.
Btw, I don't *know* any of this. My interest in this was sparked by the
same movie when I saw it about 10 years ago.
Any corrections welcome.
- Michael
Alan F. Perry
>Last night I saw an old movie (Grand Prix wth James Garner),
>which must be set around 1970. The last race in that
>movie was held at Monza, which had little in common with
>the track I know from the last 10 years or more. It had
>at least one overpass and a HUGE banked turn. When did
>they stop running there?
Actually, Monza, for the most part, seems like it hasn't changed in centuries.
The circuit has changed and they don't run on the banking anymore, but it is
all still there. I walked on the banking in 1991. The Monza race program
has both circuits on it, but I don't have the program. I think they show
that map in the movie. There is a lighted display, I think, on the tower at
the end of the pits. The current circuit is basically "L" shaped and the
banking is an oval. The piece of road that they have in common is the front
straight.
--
Alan F. Perry
Internet Lotus Cars Mailing List
esp...@netcom.com
Idealogically Impaired
>In article 1...@news1.digex.net, rshi...@access3.digex.net (Rich Shipley) writes:
>>Peter Burke (Pbu...@doit.wisc.edu) wrote:
>>: Last night I saw an old movie (Grand Prix wth James Garner),
>>: which must be set around 1970. The last race in that
>>: movie was held at Monza, which had little in common with
>>: the track I know from the last 10 years or more. It had
>>: at least one overpass and a HUGE banked turn. When did
>>: they stop running there? Also: does anyone have a GIF
>>: of the old track layout? This thing looked fascinating!
>>They probably stopped due to the type of accident depicted in the movie.
>>Also, that is definitely the best movie about auto racing ever made (IMHO
>>of course).
I beleive F1 did stop using the banking after an accident but it was it 1961.
Taffy von Trips lost his life there. (Teamate of Phil Hill who clinched his
championship at this race. Spooky connection to Mario Andretti and Ronnie
Peterson.)
For the wreck in the movie at Monza, director John Frankenheimer kept
asking one of the driver (I think Phil Hill) what kind of accident would
throw a car over the guard rail. The driver kept saying that no accident
would. Finally John got him to say that well maybe if something large,
like exhaust pipes, fell off a car and you ran over it, it might. So thats
how they wrote the wreck.
BTW, no "blue screen" or simaler techniques were used when filming. When
you see James Garner driving at speed amongst a gaggle of F1 cars, he
really is.
Michael Stucker | stu...@sugar-land.anadrill.slb.com
Anadrill Schlumberger | You don't want to know Anadrill's opinion.
Sugar Land, Texas | Schumacher, Mi.Andretti, D.Waltrip, Nannini
----------------------------------------------------------------------
OUR EVENING DRESS CODE HAS BEEN TEMPORARILY SUSPENDED IN HONOR OF OUR
FRIENDS IN THE MEDIA --sign in the Port-au-Prince Holiday Inn
Ray Foster
Rich Shipley <rshi...@access3.digex.net> wrote:
>
>They probably stopped due to the type of accident depicted in the movie.
>Also, that is definitely the best movie about auto racing ever made (IMHO
>of course).
If anyone happens to have the movie on tape, and you want a good laugh,
look at the Monza "accident" in slow motion. While it looks real enough
at full speed, you'll notice something that defies the laws of physics in
slo-mo! Stunts weren't quite so slick in 1966 as they are now (of course,
they wouldn't have expected people to be able to look at them in slo-mo
either).
By the way, my understanding is that they stopped using the oval because
over the years the surface became very rough (as mentioned by one of the
drivers in the movie). Apparently the banking is not built on earth
embankments (as all high-banked ovals in the US are) but rather is supported
by concrete pilings which have settled over the years, making the surface
above them very rough and uneven. The last time F1 used the oval was 1961.
One of my favorite things about the movie is that some of the real drivers
from that period have cameos: Graham Hill, Jo Bonner, Phil Hill, and Dan
Gurney are some who come to mind.
rwf
--
Raymond W. Foster Internet: fos...@indiana.edu
Indiana University, Bloomington IN USA
Paul S. Winalski
In article <342888$g...@news.doit.wisc.edu>, Peter Burke
<Pbu...@doit.wisc.edu> writes:
The Monza track in 1950 looked much like it does today, except without all
the chicanes. In the early 1950s, the track was extended to 10km total
length by essentially overlaying an oval track on the road track. The oval
consisted of two very high-banked concrete curves connected by two long
straights. The first straight is the start/finish straight. The entrance
to the new banked track was just pass the start of the Curva Grande, and the
banked track rejoined the road course where the Parabolica turns onto the
the main straight. The back straight of the oval passes over the road course
portion by bridges.
A full lap at Monza in this configuration worked like this: Down the front
straight, you keep to the right, turning onto the Curva Grande, through the
Lesmo bends, down the Rettilineo Centro (which is so called because it is a
straight piece of road located between the start/finish straight and the
back straight of the oval track), then around the Parabolica. So far, all is
as it is today (modulo chicanes). Coming off the Parabolica, you keep left
and go straight on past the start of the Curva Grande. This brings you to
the first banked curve, then the back straight, then the second banked curve,
then back onto the front straight. A full lap thus traverses the start/finish
straight twice.
The problem with this track layout is that the banked curves were very rough
on tires and therefore very dangerous. There were numerous problems with
high-speed blow-outs and treads lifting. The 10km configuration was used
off and on during the 1950s, then Wolfgang von Trips lost his life due to a
tire failure on the banking, and the 10km track was never used again for F1.
There were some sports car races held using the banking in the 1960s, and an
IndyCar exhibition race that used only the oval part of the course. I think
the last race using the banked part of the track was held in 1967.
--PSW
MENielsen
stu...@ASLVX1.SUGAR-LAND.ANADRILL.SLB.COM (Idealogically Impaired)
writes:
>BTW, no "blue screen" or simaler techniques were used when filming.
>When
>you see James Garner driving at speed amongst a gaggle of F1 cars, he
>really is.
Probably not all the time. Grand Prix was an MGM film made in 1966 and, in
extreme close-ups, used some of the same rear projection effects used in
another film made by MGM the next year....2001.
Jim Carr
when I was an impressionable youth. Right at the age where the cars
were just barely more interesting than Ursula Undressed.
In article <3453fh$4...@sndsu1.sinet.slb.com>
stu...@ASLVX1.SUGAR-LAND.ANADRILL.SLB.COM writes:
>
>BTW, no "blue screen" or simaler techniques were used when filming. When
>you see James Garner driving at speed amongst a gaggle of F1 cars, he
>really is.
Popular Mechanics had an article about how they did some of the stunts,
in particular about how they launched some of the cars -- both the
Monza accident and the Monaco one.
I also was lucky enough to see another movie (forget what it was, it was
in the mid 60s) being filmed at Indianapolis. Huge camera on the back of
a Corvette doing the shooting. In that case it looked like "at speed" was
maybe 90 mph, not much more.
--
James A. Carr <j...@scri.fsu.edu> | Raw data, like raw sewage,
http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~jac | requires some processing before
Supercomputer Computations Res. Inst. | it can be spread around. The
Florida State, Tallahassee FL 32306 | opposite is true of theories.
MENielsen
(MENielsen) writes:
By the way, if you are going to do a full lap of the entire Monza course,
including the banking, you will want to keep LEFT on the straight to enter
the Curva Grande and you will need to keep RIGHT coming off Parabolica and
down the straight to enter the banking. Cross-overs are only used in slot
car racing :-)
Martin Burtt
Here is a rough sketch of the Monza circuit with the banking.
Lesmo
/~~~~~\
| \ _________________
| \ / \
| X \
| / \ Vialone \
| | \____________ |
| | \ |
| | \Para |
| \ | /
Grande \ \ / /
\________\_____________/____/
|
Start
If you start on the left hand side of the track you do the modern GP
circuit and when you exit the Parabolica you are then on the right hand
side of the track. The oval then exits the pit straight on the right. When
you complete the oval you are on the left hand side of the pit straight.
Cheers,
martin
--
Martin Burtt | "I didn't think I'd like it here at all
av...@FreeNet.Carleton.Ca | But, I swear, I swear I'm on the verge"
Dept. of Earth Sciences |
University of Ottawa | -The Tragically Hip
Ray Foster
Paul S. Winalski <wina...@gemcil.enet.dec.com> wrote:
>
>The problem with this track layout is that the banked curves were very rough
>on tires and therefore very dangerous. There were numerous problems with
>high-speed blow-outs and treads lifting. The 10km configuration was used
>off and on during the 1950s, then Wolfgang von Trips lost his life due to a
>tire failure on the banking, and the 10km track was never used again for F1.
My memory is a bit fuzzy, but didn't the von Tripps accident happen in the
Parabolica? I seem to remember that about a dozen spectators were also
killed when the car went into a spectator area.
>There were some sports car races held using the banking in the 1960s, and an
>IndyCar exhibition race that used only the oval part of the course. I think
>the last race using the banked part of the track was held in 1967.
And the winner of that last race to use the oval (some kind of sports car
race) was none other than David Hobbs. I remember that being mentioned
during an ESPN broadcast of the Italian GP, back when Hobbs was still
doing F1 for ESPN.
Idealogically Impaired
No, no, no. In an interview in Sportcar International from 1992, director
John Frankenheimer said that no rear projection was used. All of the stars
were sent to racing school so they could drive the racecars (although I
doubt at anywhere near top speed). One of the stars, forget whom, just
couldn't cut it because he had only learned to drive street cars a couple
of months earlier. A stunt man had to do his driving.
Paul S. Winalski
In article <CvIFF...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>,
fos...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (Ray Foster) writes:
|>
|>My memory is a bit fuzzy, but didn't the von Tripps accident happen in the
|>Parabolica? I seem to remember that about a dozen spectators were also
|>killed when the car went into a spectator area.
You may be right. I also got the track layout wrong--the way I described it,
the Curva Grande turned off from the pit straight before the banking. It's
the other way around.
Anyway, even if nobody was killed on the banked track, there were several
vary scary moments, and there were continual criticisms of the safety of that
part of the track. One year, all the British teams boycotted the race rather
than run their cars there, because they thought it so unsafe.
Those were the days of skinny tires and no aerodynamic aids. It would be
interesting to renovate the Monza oval, using modern construction techniques
(to smooth out all the bumps they used to complain about), and run the modern
cars there. If not F1, then maybe IndyCars.
--PSW
Peter Burke
From: Paul S. Winalski, wina...@gemcil.enet.dec.com
Date: 2 Sep 1994 18:47:49 GMT
In article <347s0l$t...@jac.zko.dec.com> Paul S. Winalski,
wina...@gemcil.enet.dec.com writes:
>
>Those were the days of skinny tires and no aerodynamic aids. It would be
>interesting to renovate the Monza oval, using modern construction
techniques
>(to smooth out all the bumps they used to complain about), and run the
modern
>cars there. If not F1, then maybe IndyCars.
"Interesting" for sure: those banks are at least 30 degrees, if not 45!
That
means that they would really go flat out al the time! Low downforce setup
and let her rip! I can see the fastest ovaal of the planet suddenly being
in Italy not in Michigan (or is it still Talladega?)
Peter
Gaetano Liberatore
In article <345eth$o...@ds8.scri.fsu.edu>, j...@ds8.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr) writes:
|>Great movie. I remember it well since my dad took me to see it back
|>when I was an impressionable youth. Right at the age where the cars
|>were just barely more interesting than Ursula Undressed.
|>
|>In article <3453fh$4...@sndsu1.sinet.slb.com>
|>stu...@ASLVX1.SUGAR-LAND.ANADRILL.SLB.COM writes:
|>>
|>>BTW, no "blue screen" or simaler techniques were used when filming. When
|>>you see James Garner driving at speed amongst a gaggle of F1 cars, he
|>>really is.
|>
|>Popular Mechanics had an article about how they did some of the stunts,
|>in particular about how they launched some of the cars -- both the
|>Monza accident and the Monaco one.
|>
|>I also was lucky enough to see another movie (forget what it was, it was
|>in the mid 60s) being filmed at Indianapolis. Huge camera on the back of
|>a Corvette doing the shooting. In that case it looked like "at speed" was
|>maybe 90 mph, not much more.
The actual on-track racing action for Grand Prix was filmed with the use of
a Ford GT-40 ... something that could almost keep up with an F1 car, yet
have enough room for a camera and was relatively cheap.
For the film Le Mans another GT-40 was used. This car has an interesting
history in itself. It started out as Mirage M1/10003, but when that project
was canned, it was converted to GT40P/1074 ... the first of the Gulf spec
"lightweight" GT-40's. For the filming of Le Mans, the roof was chopped off.
It has since been restored to it's original GT-40 spec and is now for sale.
Check Hemmings Motor News for the ad. I don't remember if any price was listed,
but if you have to ask ... you can't afford it. ;-)
Jim Carr
|>
|>I also was lucky enough to see another movie (forget what it was, it was
|>in the mid 60s) being filmed at Indianapolis. Huge camera on the back of
|>a Corvette doing the shooting. In that case it looked like "at speed" was
|>maybe 90 mph, not much more.
In article <1994Sep6.1...@dmi.stevens-tech.edu>
gae...@dmi.stevens-tech.edu (Gaetano Liberatore) writes:
>
>The actual on-track racing action for Grand Prix was filmed with the use of
>a Ford GT-40 ... something that could almost keep up with an F1 car, yet
>have enough room for a camera and was relatively cheap.
It could have been a GT-40 that I saw, since I am relying on a very
old visual memory. Most of the car was buried under camera mounts
and people, and I was paying more attention to the cars they were
filming than the one doing the filming.
MATTPETE
few chapters. Just to be nit-pivky, I believe (I'm not running downstairs
to check) it was a Lola T-70, or is a T-70 a tank? R&T (or C&D) had an
article during the past year or so on the filming of Grand Prix.
Robert Small
Pete Fenelon <pe...@minster.york.ac.uk> wrote:
>In article <34l15p$1...@ds8.scri.fsu.edu> Jim Carr wrote:
>; In article <345eth$o...@ds8.scri.fsu.edu>, I wrote:
>; |>
>; |>I also was lucky enough to see another movie (forget what it was, it was
>; |>in the mid 60s) being filmed at Indianapolis. Huge camera on the back of
>; |>a Corvette doing the shooting. In that case it looked like "at speed" was
>; |>maybe 90 mph, not much more.
>
>; In article <1994Sep6.1...@dmi.stevens-tech.edu>
>; gae...@dmi.stevens-tech.edu (Gaetano Liberatore) writes:
>; >
>; >The actual on-track racing action for Grand Prix was filmed with the use of
>; >a Ford GT-40 ... something that could almost keep up with an F1 car, yet
>; >have enough room for a camera and was relatively cheap.
>
>; It could have been a GT-40 that I saw, since I am relying on a very
>; old visual memory. Most of the car was buried under camera mounts
>; and people, and I was paying more attention to the cars they were
>; filming than the one doing the filming.
>
>spaceframe Oldsmobile-powered M3 single seaters was used for some of the
>camera work on Grand Prix -- Phil Hill drove one around at the back of
>the field at Spa, certainly. Several of the ``F1'' cars were old Lotus F3s
>with fake bodywork, I think.
>
>pete
>--
>Peter Fenelon - Research Associate - High Integrity Systems Engineering Group,
>Dept. of Computer Science, University of York, York, YO1 5DD +44 (0)904 433388
>pe...@minster.york.ac.uk WWWpage http://dcpu1.cs.york.ac.uk:6666/pete/pete.html
According to McLaren The Grand Prix, Can-Am & Indy Cars by Doug Nye,
pages 86-88, the M3 was a production special intended for hillclimb and
sprint use. The name derives from Bruce's insistence that "You can take
the suspension of the sports car - whoosh - knock-up a chassis and - bonk
- there's the car".
Patsy Burt had the first car, with 4.0 litre Traco-Olds engine and ZF
gearbox. The other two went to Swiss hill-climber Dr Harry Zweifel and to
MGM for a high-speed camera car for 'Grand Prix'.
Bob
55668-Bruun
Robert Small <r...@melbpc.org.au> wrote:
[snip]
>According to McLaren The Grand Prix, Can-Am & Indy Cars by Doug Nye...
[snip]
Anybody have an idea where I could find a copy of this book? It's now out
of print, and I've been looking for it for a couple of years. (I used to
see copies of it all the time and figured there was no rush to buy it, but
then it disappeared.)
Even better, does anyone know whether Nye plans an updated edition? I've
got to believe there's a good market for it, and the complete history of
McLaren Cars has obviously yet to be written.
I'd be very happy to get my hands on a copy if anyone has one they'll part
with. Do you ever see it at EWA, Eric?
- Steve Bruun
Idealogically Impaired
>In article <CwyJE...@nntpa.cb.att.com> 55668-Bruun wrote:
>; Even better, does anyone know whether Nye plans an updated edition? I've
>; got to believe there's a good market for it, and the complete history of
>; McLaren Cars has obviously yet to be written.
>I believe Doug Nye has been unwell (this may be part of the reason his BRM
>book was late, but I think it was mostly Doug's perfectionism). However,
>updating the McLaren book to cover 1988-94 would be really useful (at
>present it stops with the announcement that Senna and Prost had signed for
>88 with Honda engines...)
I would also like to see this book updated, but with more effort given to
the section on the Can-Am cars. And a color picture of each Can-Am car.
Great book on their F1 cars, but quite lacking in Can-Am detail.
Michael Stucker | stu...@sugar-land.anadrill.slb.com
Anadrill Schlumberger | You don't want to know Anadrill's opinion.
Sugar Land, Texas | Schumacher, Mi.Andretti, D.Waltrip, Nannini
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Football contains the worst things about America, violence punctuated
by committee meetings." -- George Will
ewam...@delphi.com
>I'd be very happy to get my hands on a copy if anyone has one they'll part
>with. Do you ever see it at EWA, Eric?
stock a few weeks ago - because it is in our latest catalog and we never list
items even temporarily out of stock. I will have to check physical stock
tomorrow (Tues) and will let you know if we still have some. The latest
edition was published 1988, 322 pps.
I will also enquire about a new edition.
eric waiter EWA 800 EWA 4454 ewam...@delphi.com
ewam...@delphi.com
>>I'd be very happy to get my hands on a copy if anyone has one they'll part
>>with. Do you ever see it at EWA, Eric?
few copies in stock of the 1988 edition. will e-mail you price and
ordering details.
There is no news of a new edition yet.
rec.autos.sport.f1
; I would also like to see this book updated, but with more effort given to
; the section on the Can-Am cars. And a color picture of each Can-Am car.
; Great book on their F1 cars, but quite lacking in Can-Am detail.
Yes, but you must remember that it's basically an F1 book -- the others
in the series cover Ferrari's GP cars, Brabham's GP cars, and
March's GP and Indycars -- coming from the Autocourse stable there's a
lot of emphasis on F1. The Can-Am and Gp.7 stuff is very important in the
development of the company, but as an overall fraction of what McLaren
have done, it's relatively small...
However, if there's a good comprehensive book on Can-Am I'd love to get hold
of a copy! -- can any of our US readers recommend one?
*** Disappointing book warning -- Bruce Grant-Braham's history of Lotus
in F1 is very bland, nowhere near as good as his recent book on Williams. ***
pete
--
Peter Fenelon - Research Associate - High Integrity Systems Engineering Group,
Dept. of Computer Science, University of York, York, YO1 5DD (+44 1904 433388)
Idealogically Impaired
>However, if there's a good comprehensive book on Can-Am I'd love to get hold
>of a copy! -- can any of our US readers recommend one?
Carl Ludvigsen wrote a book about the Can-Am back in 1970. The book is
now out of print and the last time I saw a copy listed for sale (a few
months ago) it cost about $150.
Pete Lyons has written (or is writing) a book but it has not been published
yet. Vintage Motorsport magazine is publishing a series of articles on
the Can-Am, written by Lyons. I assume that they are basically the contents
of the forthcoming book. Two articles have been published with four to go.
Along with the historical article, there are photos and a review of restored
Can-Am cars in each issue while this series is running.
Michael Stucker | stu...@sugar-land.anadrill.slb.com
Anadrill Schlumberger | You don't want to know Anadrill's opinion.
Sugar Land, Texas | Schumacher, Mi.Andretti, D.Waltrip, Nannini
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Football embodies the worst things about America, violence punctuated
George Allegrezza
In article <36vl60$o...@sndsu1.sinet.slb.com>,
stu...@aslvx1.sugar-land.anadrill.slb.com (Idealogically Impaired)
writes:
>Pete Lyons has written (or is writing) a book but it has not been published
>yet. Vintage Motorsport magazine is publishing a series of articles on
>the Can-Am, written by Lyons. I assume that they are basically the contents
>of the forthcoming book. Two articles have been published with four to go.
>Along with the historical article, there are photos and a review of restored
>Can-Am cars in each issue while this series is running.
Lyons did a superb four-part series on Chapparal in VM last year, filled with
details on the development of the cars, Chevrolet R&D involvement, and a
reasonably sophisticated aerodynamic anaysis, plus many quotes from people like
Hall, Weiz, and van Valkenburg. Perhaps this amterial wiull make it into the
Can-Am book as well.
--
George Allegrezza |
Digital Equipment Corporation | I'm just a storm drain on the information
Littleton MA USA | highway.
alleg...@tnpubs.enet.dec.com |