Zanardi's F1 test times. Any thoughts?
5...@my-dejanews.com
he has just jumped back into an F1 car. I think he will be pretty good but
the car will be a third or fourth row car in 1999. If he is faster than
Ralf, he will be a pretty good driver.
James Hunt was very high on Alex when Alex was in F2 or Formula Ford. The
British F1 journalists also felt Alex had a lot of talent. His performance
in the dying Lotus is not a fair comparision. He may not be a Schumi beater
but he may be as good as the rest.
The other great Italian hope, Fisico, was faster than Ralf in many races.
Although Giancarlo's fitness probably contributed to his fading at the end.
Third Italian hope, Jarno Trulli, is as fast as Panis and Olivier is
underrated in my book. I was hoping Jarno would get a shot at a better team
for 1999 but he is stuck at Prost. Maybe Barnard will help in 1999.
Frank
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Art Iverson
5...@my-dejanews.com wrote in article <6utrtl$vp8$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> I read where Alex was fifth in testing at Barcelona. Not too bad considering
> he has just jumped back into an F1 car. I think he will be pretty good but
> the car will be a third or fourth row car in 1999. If he is faster than
> Ralf, he will be a pretty good driver.
Zanardi's Tuesday lap time was outstanding.
Only 2 tenths slower than Montoya. JPMontoya has been testing the
Williams for months and has often been as quick as JV and HHF.
Zanardi hasn't driven an F1 car for 4 years, and is unfamiliar
with semi-automatic gearbox and left foot braking. He did a
great job.
Regarding the 3 Italian hopefuls, AZ, GF and JT:
I believe that they are collectively better than Alboreto, Patrese
and deAngelis. That was 15 years ago when these 3 represented
Italy's F1 hopes.
We fans of Italian drivers have much to be happy about.
PS: In the long run, Trulli may be the best of the 3.....
Art Iverson
Lakes
Magnussen. He was unbeatable in F3 a few years ago. He was "a dyslexic dog"
in Macau coming from the pits to a win in F3 on a tough circuit.
Is F1 daunting or just different?
Tony
5...@my-dejanews.com <5...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
<6utrtl$vp8$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>I read where Alex was fifth in testing at Barcelona. Not too bad
considering
>he has just jumped back into an F1 car. I think he will be pretty good but
>the car will be a third or fourth row car in 1999. If he is faster than
>Ralf, he will be a pretty good driver.
>
Sys Admin
posting.
Oh well, can't be helped.
Alan
Christine Johnston
> 5...@my-dejanews.com wrote in article <6utrtl$vp8$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> > I read where Alex was fifth in testing at Barcelona. Not too bad
> considering > he has just jumped back into an F1 car. I think he will be
> pretty good but > the car will be a third or fourth row car in 1999. If
> he is faster than > Ralf, he will be a pretty good driver.
>
> Zanardi's Tuesday lap time was outstanding. Only 2 tenths slower than
> Montoya. JPMontoya has been testing the Williams for months and has often
> been as quick as JV and HHF. Zanardi hasn't driven an F1 car for 4 years,
> and is unfamiliar with semi-automatic gearbox and left foot braking. He
> did a great job.
Reading the guff in the GdS I rather got the impression that Williams
didn't have an awful lot of fuel in the car. Apparently a heavy car
with the groovy tyres can be a bit of a handful and they didn't want him
spinning off all the time whilst acclimatising himself to the FW20's
systems and left foot braking as he only had 2 days.
Speaking of left foot braking..... it sort of reminds me of when HHF
arrived at Williams. They insisted he LFB'd too as JV does and this
would mean it would be easier for them to set up the spare car (nice to
know where the driver is in the pecking order at Williams) and as Ralf
LFBs they want AZ too as well. But HHF had been brought up LFBing and
it still took him quite a while to get back into the swing of it well
into the 97 season. According to his interview in the GdS Zanardi has
never LFB'd. I'm just wondering if he'll flex some control at Williams
over this. It's obviously not necessary - Hill's Jordan is a two pedal
car with a hand clutch but he RFB's after he switched back from LFBing
mid season (due to the wonderfully technical reason that his big foot
was hitting off the steering column).
Ford Prefect
The author: chr...@dircon.co.yuk (Christine Johnston);
The message.....
>Speaking of left foot braking..... it sort of reminds me of when HHF
>arrived at Williams. They insisted he LFB'd too as JV does and this
>would mean it would be easier for them to set up the spare car (nice to
>know where the driver is in the pecking order at Williams) and as Ralf
>LFBs they want AZ too as well. But HHF had been brought up LFBing and
>it still took him quite a while to get back into the swing of it well
>into the 97 season. According to his interview in the GdS Zanardi has
>never LFB'd. I'm just wondering if he'll flex some control at Williams
>over this. It's obviously not necessary - Hill's Jordan is a two pedal
>car with a hand clutch but he RFB's after he switched back from LFBing
>mid season (due to the wonderfully technical reason that his big foot
>was hitting off the steering column).
Big foot? Does he walk around in circles?
David Betts
Christine Johnston wrote
>Speaking of left foot braking..... it sort of reminds me of when HHF
>arrived at Williams. They insisted he LFB'd too as JV does and this
>would mean it would be easier for them to set up the spare car (nice to
>know where the driver is in the pecking order at Williams) and as Ralf
>LFBs they want AZ too as well. But HHF had been brought up LFBing and
>it still took him quite a while to get back into the swing of it well
>into the 97 season. According to his interview in the GdS Zanardi has
>never LFB'd. I'm just wondering if he'll flex some control at Williams
>over this. It's obviously not necessary - Hill's Jordan is a two pedal
>car with a hand clutch but he RFB's after he switched back from LFBing
>mid season (due to the wonderfully technical reason that his big foot
>was hitting off the steering column).
Fascinating. Damon did become convinced that left-foot-braking is the
fastest way, though, didn't he? That's why he spent such a long time trying
to make it work for him. I would have though that the potential gain is
marginal and its better to stick with what works for you. - big feet or
not.
Very different from racing, but I always left-foot-brake when driving an
auto. It sort of seems logical with two pedals, so I taught myself. It
takes a little while to learn to modulate your braking - about five miles,
I would have thought.
David Betts
'When the flag drops, the bullshit stops'
neander...@hotmail.com
to...@fidramay.demon.co.uk.you-know-what-to-do (Ford Prefect) wrote:
> The date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 19:46:49 +0000;
> The author: chr...@dircon.co.yuk (Christine Johnston);
> The message.....
>
>
Og here. Og hope peo-ple stop talk 'Big Foot'. Og try take ho-li-day in
for-est try get a-way from all. No mat-ter were Og go, many cam-per start
shout point ca-me-ra Og. Og think, more noise big ci-ty.
Og re-turn to-pic. Og much glad Za-nar-di come F1. Og see F1 Mic-hael
Schu-ma-cher smash many car. Og see Champ Car Za-nar-di smash many
car. Og see F1 race both Za-nar-di, Schu-ma-cher same time, Og fi-nal-ly
know who best smash car! Og not a-ble wait.
Sadly Mistaken
drivers to brake with their right foot is two-fold:
1) There is never a good reason to have the throttle pedal and the brake
pedal depressed at the same time.
2) There are MANY good reasons NOT to have the throttle pedal and the brake
pedal depressed at the same time. (In panic situations, the untrained
(relatively) would likely step on both pedals as hard as they could).
3) (I know I said 2) Some drivers tend to drive with their left foot
resting on the brake pedal which leaves the brake lights on continuously
(dangerous) and prematurely wears out the brakes.
SM
David Betts <David...@email.msn.com> wrote in article
<#FKGYad79GA.215@upnetnews05>...
Jason Berkan
<Sadly_M...@potato.mindless.com> wrote:
>As I understand it, the reason that it is common to teach regular everyday
>drivers to brake with their right foot is two-fold:
>
>1) There is never a good reason to have the throttle pedal and the brake
>pedal depressed at the same time.
>
>2) There are MANY good reasons NOT to have the throttle pedal and the brake
>pedal depressed at the same time. (In panic situations, the untrained
>(relatively) would likely step on both pedals as hard as they could).
>
>3) (I know I said 2) Some drivers tend to drive with their left foot
>resting on the brake pedal which leaves the brake lights on continuously
>(dangerous) and prematurely wears out the brakes.
4) You need a foot to work the clutch.
Jason Berkan
Transaction Master
Nope, you still have your left foot. You just have "dancing feet" with
both feet working a couple of petals apiece. Not two left feet, happy
feet. In car video of a driver using left foot braking and needing a
clutch is fun to watch. Hans Stuck driver a 4WD drive car in rally has
both feet doing something all the time. Even the in car of a friend doing
a lap in a sports car around Sears Point was amusing.
Jason Berkan
Happy feet indeed. I had to do this once with my old Chevette. The
timing belt had slipped so it wouldn't idle. Had to keep my foot on
the gas.
To stop: Put in clutch with left foot (right still on gas). Put car
in neutral. Put left foot on brake (right *still* on gas) until car
stopped.
Thank God it was only six blocks!
Jason Berkan
Sylvan Smyth
>Nope, you still have your left foot. You just have "dancing feet" with
>both feet working a couple of petals apiece. Not two left feet, happy
>feet. In car video of a driver using left foot braking and needing a
>clutch is fun to watch. Hans Stuck driver a 4WD drive car in rally has
>both feet doing something all the time.
Wasn't the best "foot"age of Walter Rohrl in an '80's Audi rally car?
Sylvan Smyth
Victoria, BC, Canada
syl...@islandnet.com
Christine Johnston
> Fascinating. Damon did become convinced that left-foot-braking is the
> fastest way, though, didn't he? That's why he spent such a long time trying
> to make it work for him. I would have though that the potential gain is
> marginal and its better to stick with what works for you. - big feet or
> not.
I'm not sure he thought it was faster but he did think it was heavy on
the brakes - it's interesting that at Monza he didn't have a brake
problem despite much hard racing and many others who just trundled
around did. And also with Jordan having so many problems early season
he didn't have time to footle (heh heh) around when they needed digging
out of a hole fast. Maybe Zanardi is just experimenting as well. With
the usual November testing moratorium he's not going to have a lot of
time to practice it prior to Oz 99.
Jacques Steiner
>As I understand it, the reason that it is common to teach regular everyday
>drivers to brake with their right foot is two-fold:
>1) There is never a good reason to have the throttle pedal and the brake
>pedal depressed at the same time.
Actually, there are two excellent reasons to do so. The first involves the
technique known as heel-and-toe, whereby the accelerator is blipped to
maintain engine revolutions when downshifting during deceleration. This
technique of course is used with manual transmissions.
There is another rather interesting technique, that of using left foot
braking to effectively alter the brake bias in front wheel drive cars,
combatting understeer. When the brake and accelerator are used
simultaneously in a turn, the front wheel brakes are obviously overpowered
by the power coming from the transmission, but the rear wheels do try to
slow in relation to the car's movement, causing the slip angle of the rear
tires to increase. In effect, the rear slides out, pointing the car more
into the turn. Careful balance of the brake and accelerator in turns can
allow the car to be adjusted to almost any attitude up to the point where
the tires lose their grip entirely. The penalty of the technique comes in
the reduction of available grip, and also in increased brake wear. It
should be noted that this trick can also be used to balance the steering of
some understeer-biased four-wheel drive cars.
Although many drivers of cars with manual transmissions know what
heel-and-toe is, relatively few make use of it, and very few drivers
attempt to use their brakes to balance front-drive understeer. Since I
believe that any expertise in car control is a potential active safety
measure, I believe the driving schools of the world have much to answer for
that these techniques are not more widely known and practiced. If I had my
way, every young driver would be sent to road racing and rally schools in
addition to receiving the regular instruction. Not only would we produce
much better drivers, we would also do wonders for the talent pool of the
sport.
>2) There are MANY good reasons NOT to have the throttle pedal and the brake
>pedal depressed at the same time. (In panic situations, the untrained
>(relatively) would likely step on both pedals as hard as they could).
>3) (I know I said 2) Some drivers tend to drive with their left foot
>resting on the brake pedal which leaves the brake lights on continuously
>(dangerous) and prematurely wears out the brakes.
These latter two reasons apply mostly to idiot drivers, and are probably a
good case for not granting them a license in the first place. Drivers of
cars with manual transmissions should certainly learn how to heel-and-toe,
drivers of front-wheel drive cars should certainly learn how to adjust
steering balance with left-foot braking, and drivers of cars equipped with
automatic transmissions should certainly learn to place their feet properly
so as neither to be confused when braking nor to ride their brakes by
mistake.
There is _one_ good argument for right-foot braking in two-pedal road cars,
and that is that the left foot should be placed firmly against the
floorboard to brace the body when conducting emergency manoeuvers.
Personally, I feel such to be the job of the seats and seat belts, and for
this reason, always make sure that my cars are adequately equipped
(supportive side bolsters, properly functioning seat belts) in these areas.
I prefer to use each foot as it's needed. Driving is a complicated and
dangerous art. Take it for granted and you will die.
Regards,
Jacques Steiner
Remove ".bs" before replying. Supprimez «.bs» avant de répondre.
Racing colors + rasf1 humor: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/8750/
Eric Tabarly (1932-1998) RIP
Buzz
Jacques Steiner wrote in message
<36172e2d...@news.club-internet.fr>...
/snipped rather a lot/
I prefer to get myself out of those nasty understeering situations by
flooring the throttle and applying some lock in my front wheel drive race
car. Seems to work better than even thinking about the brakes in that kind
of situation. Normally, in a corner, you should have a reasonable amount of
throttle on, and the brake bias is going to be front heavy aswell in a front
wheel drive car. All I seem to be able to achieve by braking and giving it
some throttle at the same time is to get my brakes hotter (which is fine on
the warm up lap). Just taking my foot off the accelerator during a corner
achieves the transformation to oversteer, which allows me to steer the car
round the corner using only the throttle, which seems to be the technique I
think is missing in a lot of modern drivers, but not one I would insist on
for passing the road driving test. If you need to use the brakes aswell to
get this effect, then my opinion is your car is set up wrong. But if that's
the way you want to drive, go for it.
Jim Price
Jacques Steiner
>/snipped rather a lot/
>I prefer to get myself out of those nasty understeering situations by
>flooring the throttle and applying some lock in my front wheel drive race
>car. Seems to work better than even thinking about the brakes in that kind
>of situation. Normally, in a corner, you should have a reasonable amount of
>throttle on, and the brake bias is going to be front heavy aswell in a front
>wheel drive car. All I seem to be able to achieve by braking and giving it
>some throttle at the same time is to get my brakes hotter (which is fine on
>the warm up lap).
It's a technique rarely used in circuit racing, but rather more common in
rally. We were speaking of street driving however.
>Just taking my foot off the accelerator during a corner
>achieves the transformation to oversteer, which allows me to steer the car
>round the corner using only the throttle, which seems to be the technique I
>think is missing in a lot of modern drivers, but not one I would insist on
>for passing the road driving test.
I disagree. Car control is at least as important as knowing the traffic
signs. Lane control, of course, is another infamously neglected discipline.
The sins of those who set licensing standards are manifold.
>If you need to use the brakes aswell to
>get this effect, then my opinion is your car is set up wrong.
Except under ideal circumstances (i.e. when the car is perfectly set up for
the isolated conditions of a single closed-course race track), no car can
be set up to perform as desired under every unforeseeable condition. Since
emergencies are mostly unforeseeable, it helps to know _all_ of the ways to
exploit the abilities of a given car.
>But if that's
>the way you want to drive, go for it.
I don't believe I said anywhere in my post that adjusting steering balance
via left-foot braking is appropriate under all conditions. It did seem to
me to be an appropriate addition to the discussion of pressing the brake
and loud pedals at the same time. It's just another technique, and, in some
situations, a useful one. A good driver should have as many tricks up his
sleeve as possible. Rare is the driver of more than ten years experience
who hasn't faced potential death behind the wheel at least once
Andrea Cocchiglia
: If I had my
: way, every young driver would be sent to road racing and rally schools in
: addition to receiving the regular instruction.
I've often thought the same thing but...
Here in Oz, some insurance companies offer discounts to drivers who
complete an `advanced' driving course. However, one of the big insurers,
NRMA, has just released a statement claiming that such courses do not
improve the `crash statistics' of said drivers because they tend to
take more risks in the belief that they have the skill to handle it (I
thought that having `the skill' was the whole point of the course!). A
survey of racing/rally drivers showed a slight increase in their `crash
statistics' as compared to other drivers.
Yes, the statements are a bit vague and woolly - hopefully someone
has the data on exactly what was surveyed. Personally I could accept
that a `trained' driver might be less likely to be involved in, say, a
rear-ender at the traffic lights but is much more likely to lose it by,
say, trying a handbrake turn on a mountain hairpin. In F1 over the years,
we have seen that as safety measures increase, drivers take more risks;
in playgrounds the same effect has been observed.
Perhaps the NRMA's study is skewed by the fact that since an `advanced'
course is volountary, such courses attract a large proportion of Didier
Auriol wannabees than the lower risk Joe Commuters.
Andrea Cocchiglia
Australia has plenty of culture. I wonder how they did it....
Yoghurt. - ahbou
School of Comp. Sci. & Soft. Eng., Monash University, Melbourne, Australia
Jacques Steiner
>Jacques Steiner <arrac...@geocities.bs.com> wrote:
>: If I had my
>: way, every young driver would be sent to road racing and rally schools in
>: addition to receiving the regular instruction.
>I've often thought the same thing but...
<snip insurance statistics>
>Perhaps the NRMA's study is skewed by the fact that since an `advanced'
>course is volountary, such courses attract a large proportion of Didier
>Auriol wannabees than the lower risk Joe Commuters.
There is that, of course, but I feel, perhaps harshly, that it is better to
put the knowledge into the hands of everyone, knowing some may be burned
(though, since I favor harder licensing standards in general, I think fewer
would be burned in total), so as to protect the interests of those who have
the wits to handle the knowledge but would remain otherwise ignorant. I
have looked into this a bit, and I have yet to see statistics that indicate
to me that the danger to third parties (i.e. other than the driver
responsible for the accident) is so great as to counter the effect it would
have on reasonable drivers (i.e. ones not playing rally-driver on the
public highway). There is a similar case with antilock brakes; most people
don't know how to use them and end up lengthening their braking distance in
a panic stop [1]. To convince me that ABS should be discouraged, one would
have to present me with statistics showing a dramatic increase in
fatalities to passengers and third parties. It would be impossible to
convince me that ABS should be banned entirely, though at least one radical
group in the USA has already proposed this.
[1] the best studies of this come from the USA, which isn't famous for the
quality of its driving population, so you may want to take the whole issue
with a grain of salt.
Maximum
>
>Actually, there are two excellent reasons to do so. The first involves the
>technique known as heel-and-toe, whereby the accelerator is blipped to
>maintain engine revolutions when downshifting during deceleration. This
>technique of course is used with manual transmissions.
Given the massive improvement in manual transmissions and car braking
systems in recent years I thought that the habit of heel and toe had
been largly dropped, certainly when braking on the absolute limit in a
rear wheel drive road car adding extra braking to the rear wheels by
agressive downshifting makes the rear end decididly uncomfortable.
regards
--
Maximum Bob
Mark Sempers
>
>>As I understand it, the reason that it is common to teach regular everyday
>>drivers to brake with their right foot is two-fold:
>
>>1) There is never a good reason to have the throttle pedal and the brake
>>pedal depressed at the same time.
>
>technique known as heel-and-toe, whereby the accelerator is blipped to
>maintain engine revolutions when downshifting during deceleration. This
>technique of course is used with manual transmissions.
>
>braking to effectively alter the brake bias in front wheel drive cars,
>combatting understeer. When the brake and accelerator are used
>simultaneously in a turn, the front wheel brakes are obviously overpowered
>by the power coming from the transmission, but the rear wheels do try to
>slow in relation to the car's movement, causing the slip angle of the rear
>tires to increase. In effect, the rear slides out, pointing the car more
>into the turn. Careful balance of the brake and accelerator in turns can
>allow the car to be adjusted to almost any attitude up to the point where
>the tires lose their grip entirely. The penalty of the technique comes in
>the reduction of available grip, and also in increased brake wear. It
>should be noted that this trick can also be used to balance the steering of
>some understeer-biased four-wheel drive cars.
>
Another oft-forgotten use of left foot braking is with forced induction cars
(turbos) you get the gearshifting done, then get the left foot on the brake
and bring power on much earlier in the corner than you normaly would, using
the brake to avoid accelarating before it's appropriate letting boost build,
then you let the power in by reducing the brake for a lag-free exit.
I personally left foot brake occasionaly (mainly when I'm in a hurry), heel
and toe all the time, and learned to double declutch with my old car
(knackered gearbox made it required), One thing I found is that it took a
bit of practice to develop the required sensetivity in the left foot - being
used to operating the clutch it worked in a fairly digital mode. I also had
a couple of interesting moments where I 'forgot' my left foot was covering
the brakes, and changed gear... seems to take an age to work out why
planting your left foot caused everything to lock up :-) Just a matter of
breaking the programming.
- Mark (who is currently driving a (borrowed) Saab turbo. hence the lag bit
above!)
Jacques Steiner
>Given the massive improvement in manual transmissions and car braking
>systems in recent years I thought that the habit of heel and toe had
>been largly dropped, certainly when braking on the absolute limit in a
>rear wheel drive road car adding extra braking to the rear wheels by
>agressive downshifting makes the rear end decididly uncomfortable.
If you're referring to gear braking, then yes, brake improvements have
rendered it obsolete in most situations on the road. However, once one gets
off the brake and full on the loud pedal, it helps to have the gears and
engine revs in the right place (and matched) rather than having the engine
try to claw back up from idle. Heel-and-toe is the art of sustaining revs
while the clutch is in and the brakes are on. Heel-and-toe _has_ largely
been dropped, but out of the ignorance of the general driving population,
not for some lack of utility.
Jason Berkan
(Jacques Steiner) wrote:
<snip>
>There is a similar case with antilock brakes; most people
>don't know how to use them and end up lengthening their braking distance in
>a panic stop [1]. To convince me that ABS should be discouraged, one would
>have to present me with statistics showing a dramatic increase in
>fatalities to passengers and third parties. It would be impossible to
>convince me that ABS should be banned entirely, though at least one radical
>group in the USA has already proposed this.
>
>[1] the best studies of this come from the USA, which isn't famous for the
>quality of its driving population, so you may want to take the whole issue
>with a grain of salt.
I actually have another problem with ABS. Here in Saskatchewan, the
highways can get pretty awful during winter storms. People with brand
new cars with ABS, feel that they can drive through anything and head
out on the highway, even though you can't see more than a kilometer
ahead. (And the roads are covered in ice.)
I shudder to think how my insurance premiums are going up because
these people put their brand new cars in the ditch.
Jason Berkan
Ferdinand Trauttmansdorff
>Given the massive improvement in manual transmissions and car braking
>systems in recent years I thought that the habit of heel and toe had
>been largly dropped, certainly when braking on the absolute limit in a
>rear wheel drive road car adding extra braking to the rear wheels by
You're mixing too many things together here.
Yes, nowadays engine braking is not usually required as braking
systems are typically powerful enough to handle any eventuality.
And yes, engine braking with "aggressive" downshifting can create
uncomfortable situations.
That said, skillful application of engine braking can be very useful
for fine control. But most importantly, skillful "non-aggressive"
heel and toe downshifting when "aggressively" braking gives you the
big benefit of always being in the proper gear when you are finished
braking and need to get back on the throttle.
-Ferdinand-
Ferdinand Trauttmansdorff
>There is another rather interesting technique, that of using left foot
>braking to effectively alter the brake bias in front wheel drive cars,
>combatting understeer. When the brake and accelerator are used
>simultaneously in a turn, the front wheel brakes are obviously overpowered
>by the power coming from the transmission, but the rear wheels do try to
>slow in relation to the car's movement, causing the slip angle of the rear
>tires to increase. In effect, the rear slides out, pointing the car more
>into the turn. Careful balance of the brake and accelerator in turns can
>allow the car to be adjusted to almost any attitude up to the point where
>the tires lose their grip entirely. The penalty of the technique comes in
>the reduction of available grip, and also in increased brake wear. It
>should be noted that this trick can also be used to balance the steering of
>some understeer-biased four-wheel drive cars.
The key is "Careful" balance of the brake and accelerator.
I grew up driving rear-drive cars and ice-raced a Datsun 510 for
several years. Rear-drive just seems to make a whole lot more sense.
The car can be pointed with throttle all the way through the turn. A
precise drift angle can be maintained just by modulating the throttle
with very small steering inputs. You should never need to turn the
wheel anymore than a few degrees to either side. The car is steered
entirely with the throttle. You come drifting out of the corner
already pointing down the next straight, on the power all the way.
Then I switched to a front-wheel-drive VW Rabbit and HATED it. I had
to learn how to drive all over again. That damn thing just wanted to
go straight, ALL the time, no matter what I tried. Come to a corner,
turn the wheel, it goes straight. Come to a corner, turn the wheel,
hit the gas, it goes straight. Come to a corner, turn the wheel, let
off the gas, it goes straight. Sheesh!
Then a kind friend gave me some lessons on what to do with the brakes.
The key with front-drive cars is to NEVER to break traction with the
drive wheels because the steering is the first thing that disappears.
On ice, that means NEVER suddenly lifting-off, or suddenly applying
too much throttle. Instead you have to steer with the brake pedal.
And if you get too far sideways, and have enough traction available,
you can apply a little MORE throttle to pull the car straight again.
That's all COMPLETELY backwards from what I was used to doing in my
rear-drive car and it really hurt my head trying to concentrate on all
these crucial details. I spent a lot of time digging my car out of
snowbanks before getting the hang of it.
Ultimately front-wheel drive is quicker than rear-drive on ice because
of the engine weight over the drive wheels providing more traction.
But don't let anyone try to convince you it's any easier to drive!
-Ferdinand-
Ferdinand Trauttmansdorff
>> If I had my way, every young driver would be sent to road racing
>> and rally schools in addition to receiving the regular instruction.
Right on!
Andrea Cocchiglia replied:
>I've often thought the same thing but...
>
>.. one of the big insurers, NRMA, has just released a statement claiming
>that such courses do not improve the `crash statistics' of said drivers
>because they tend to take more risks in the belief that they have the
>skill to handle it (I thought that having `the skill' was the whole
>point of the course!).
That works the other way around too. Here in Canada, they must have
used the same statistics to prove that *less* training makes safer
drivers. To get my licence (many years ago), I only had to know how
to parallel park and how to use my turn signals when changing lanes.
A couple of years ago, a psychology professor here in Canada named
Gerald Wilde, published a book titled "Target Risk".
Wilde's theory is that a person will feel comfortable only below a
particular level of perceived risk. He cites the example of using a
step ladder. Give someone a wobbly unsafe step ladder and he will
only climb so high. But give the same person a stable safe ladder and
he will climb much higher. The question is, which scenario is
actually safer?
Professor Wilde's book stirred up a lot of controversy here because he
claimed that, due to the "Target Risk" principle, advances in vehicle
safety have not actually improved overall safety levels. People feel
safer, so they simply drive faster.
If you can keep your blood from boiling while reading it, this really
is a very interesting book. The complete text is available on-line at
the Ph.D professor's website at:
<http://psyc.queensu.ca/faculty/wilde/wilde.html>.
Jim Unger created a funny "Herman" cartoon that perfectly illustrates
the "Target Risk" principle. See it at:
<http://www.globalserve.net/~trauttf/herman.htm>
-Ferdinand-
Jacques Steiner
>(Jacques Steiner) wrote:
><snip>
>>There is a similar case with antilock brakes; most people
>>don't know how to use them and end up lengthening their braking distance in
>>[1] the best studies of this come from the USA, which isn't famous for the
>>quality of its driving population, so you may want to take the whole issue
>>with a grain of salt.
>I actually have another problem with ABS. Here in Saskatchewan, the
>highways can get pretty awful during winter storms. People with brand
>new cars with ABS, feel that they can drive through anything and head
>out on the highway, even though you can't see more than a kilometer
>ahead. (And the roads are covered in ice.)
There's also the problem of loosely packed snow or sand, on(in?) which a
car can stop more quickly with locked wheels, which allow drifts to build
up in front of the tires (we've all seen the f1 cars do this in the gravel
traps). ABS equipped cars used to come with an on/off switch. Some still
do, but it has become rare. That's a shame.
Jacques Steiner
<snip discussion of how greater perceived safety can lead to more
accidents>
>Gerald Wilde, published a book titled "Target Risk".
<snip>
><http://psyc.queensu.ca/faculty/wilde/wilde.html>.
>Jim Unger created a funny "Herman" cartoon that perfectly illustrates
>the "Target Risk" principle. See it at:
><http://www.globalserve.net/~trauttf/herman.htm>
LOL! I think I've seen another version of this with just the single spike.
There was an American sci-fi author (Larry Niven?) who proposed eliminating
traffic accidents simply by executing everyone involved in one, regardless
of who was responsible. Very soon (in theory), you would create _very_
careful and defensive drivers. An American columnist proposed replacing
airbags with guns, so when you had a big crash, you would be shot dead.
Same principle. I can't say I'd go very far down that path, but I admit the
problem (i.e., no blood boiling on this end). We have to find the best
possible solutions, and I think a very high level of driver training
coupled to very tough licensing standards would be much better than what we
(of any country) have today.
Maximum
>Maximum Bob wrote:
>>Given the massive improvement in manual transmissions and car braking
>>systems in recent years I thought that the habit of heel and toe had
>>been largly dropped,
> certainly when braking on the absolute limit in a
>>rear wheel drive road car adding extra braking to the rear wheels by
>>aggressive downshifting makes the rear end decididly uncomfortable.
>
>You're mixing too many things together here.
Yes in retrospect I should have separated the two points as above.
>
>Yes, nowadays engine braking is not usually required as braking
>systems are typically powerful enough to handle any eventuality.
Certainly for road use...as a point of interest the blurb for the new
911 (996) quotes the braking system as being 4 times more powerfull than
the engine (=1200bhp!).
>
>And yes, engine braking with "aggressive" downshifting can create
>uncomfortable situations.
That I presume should read "braking with "agressive downshifting..."
the point being that the extra braking provided by the engine has the
effect of increasing the brake bias to the rear.
>
>That said, skillful application of engine braking can be very useful
>for fine control. But most importantly, skillful "non-aggressive"
>heel and toe downshifting when "aggressively" braking gives you the
>big benefit of always being in the proper gear when you are finished
>braking and need to get back on the throttle.
>
If the point of the discussion is whether new drivers should be taught
the technique of heel and toe, then I remain unconvimced that a
technique developed to overcome gearbox deficiencies of a bygone era is
of much use to Joe Public swanning around in his modern car with all the
facilities that it gives him (ABS brakes, responsive engine with a wide
torque band etc).
regards
--
Maximum Bob
Buzz
Jacques Steiner wrote in message <361807c7...@news.club-internet.fr>...
>It's a technique rarely used in circuit racing, but rather more common in
>rally. We were speaking of street driving however.
Just trying to head back to topic. WRT street driving, this is surely nearer
to circuit racing than rallying, except in those unfortunate areas of the
world where the streets aren't tarmaced. The difficulty with a three pedal
layout of this technique is also enhanced by the attempt to transition from
a heel and toe foot position going into the corner, with the right foot on
the break, to a left foot on the brake stance, and maintaining smoothness at
the same time. I understand the rally drivers who use the technique don't
actually bother with the clutch much, so its not a problem for them.
>>Just taking my foot off the accelerator during a corner
>>achieves the transformation to oversteer, which allows me to steer the car
>>round the corner using only the throttle, which seems to be the technique
I
>>think is missing in a lot of modern drivers, but not one I would insist on
>>for passing the road driving test.
>
>I disagree.
Excuse me, but are you saying that you would fail people on their driving
tests if they couldn't do this? (NB thats a straight question, no negativity
meant). It would certainly solve the traffic congestion problem, but the
costs would rocket for the few thousand drivers with the skills to get on
the road legally in a few years time! And they would moan so badly about
those of us who didn't have to pass such a ridiculous test. I think the test
should be there for people to pass by demonstrating that they can drive
safely when they chose to. If they chose not to, it won't matter what level
of skill they have, they will be a menace.
Jim Price
Andrea Cocchiglia
: There's also the problem of loosely packed snow or sand, on(in?) which a
: car can stop more quickly with locked wheels, which allow drifts to build
: up in front of the tires (we've all seen the f1 cars do this in the gravel
: traps).
Indeedy: At a 4wd training course I watched one lady climb a steep muddy
hill in her new Mitsuwhatsit Pajero, stomp on the brakes as instructed and
roll slowly back down the hill. About half way down, she was instructed
to jump on the brakes, lock the wheels and use the built up mud to
stop. However, her abs equipped vehicle decided that locking the wheels
was a no-no so she ended up simply rolling all the way back down the hill.
: There was an American sci-fi author (Larry Niven?) who proposed eliminating
: traffic accidents simply by executing everyone involved in one, regardless
: of who was responsible.
I believe that Saudi Arabian law says that if you're involved in an accident,
it is your fault because if you had not been in that spot, the accident would
not have happenned. I don't know how much truth there is in that but it
does make some sort of sense :-)
Andrea Cocchiglia
Jacques Steiner
>Jacques Steiner wrote
>Just trying to head back to topic. WRT street driving, this is surely nearer
>to circuit racing than rallying, except in those unfortunate areas of the
>world where the streets aren't tarmaced.
Rallying more than road racing, but I think you would be surprised at how
many places (in any country) have road conditions (at least at some times)
bad enough to warrant such techniques (on occasion).
>The difficulty with a three pedal
>layout of this technique is also enhanced by the attempt to transition from
>a heel and toe foot position going into the corner, with the right foot on
>the break, to a left foot on the brake stance, and maintaining smoothness at
>the same time. I understand the rally drivers who use the technique don't
>actually bother with the clutch much, so its not a problem for them.
Yeah, I should have mentioned that it's easier without the clutch! FWIW, my
daily-driver (four-wheel drive) had a dog-box when I bought it (used). I
eventually restored the box to the original spec.
>>>Just taking my foot off the accelerator during a corner
>>>achieves the transformation to oversteer, which allows me to steer the car
>>>round the corner using only the throttle, which seems to be the technique
>I
>>>think is missing in a lot of modern drivers, but not one I would insist on
>>>for passing the road driving test.
>>I disagree.
>Excuse me, but are you saying that you would fail people on their driving
>tests if they couldn't do this? (NB thats a straight question, no negativity
>meant).
Yes, I would.
>It would certainly solve the traffic congestion problem, but the
>costs would rocket for the few thousand drivers with the skills to get on
>the road legally in a few years time! And they would moan so badly about
>those of us who didn't have to pass such a ridiculous test.
I would require everyone to take a drivers' test every few years. Just
about every country can look to another country and be horrified at the
cost of drivers' instruction and licensing. Here in France, a typical
driver will spend about $4,000 US getting his license. Much of that money
is wasted by a hyper-inneicient system of schools, but I think the
economies of the developed countries (and I am an economist - not that that
makes me a particular expert on driving lessons ;-) ) could handle $5 or
even $6,000 US school and test without too much difficulty. That's only one
side of the coin; the other is the incredible cost of bad drivers, which
has never (IMO) been properly calculated.
>I think the test
>should be there for people to pass by demonstrating that they can drive
>safely when they chose to. If they chose not to, it won't matter what level
>of skill they have, they will be a menace.
That's a statement I think we can all agree to, yet it doesn't negate my
argument for more extensive training. Well, we each have our opinions. I'm
well aware that most people find mine on this issue to be somewhat
draconian.
Paul B
<a...@ElectricMonk.dgs.monash.edu.au> writes
>
>I believe that Saudi Arabian law says that if you're involved in an accident,
>it is your fault because if you had not been in that spot, the accident would
>not have happenned. I don't know how much truth there is in that but it
>does make some sort of sense :-)
>
although many of us who work/worked there believed it to be so.
When there is a non-injurious accident the rights and wrongs are weighed
on the spot by the traffic police, who decide who is at fault. The
guilty party is then carted off to the nearest nick, and held there
while the injured party gets estimates for repair of the damage caused
to his property. These are presented to the chief cop in the police
station concerned, and the guilty party has to pay in full then and
there. If he can't he is held in prison until he, or his relatives, or
his employer come up with the cash.
This happened to me once. A Somali trucker driving a bloody great
Mercedes truck rear-ended me at some traffic lights in Jeddah. He was
carted away, and I had to spend the rest of the night driving round the
repair shops to get 3 written quotes, present them at the cop shop, and
wait while the payment was sorted out. A real pain!
In accidents where injury or death result it's a lot more serious, and
you start getting into the field of blood money. When I left Jeddah
there was a Filipino in gaol who had been there for 3 years because his
family couldn't and his emplyer wouldn't come up with the blood money,
which was in the region of 300,000 Riyals. His friends had to make up
meals for him, as he was only being fed basic prison fare which is
pretty dire.
--
Paul B
Note: reply to thund...@larkhall.co.uk if replying by Email.
A complete history of F1, including drivers, cars and circuits, can be found at
http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/index1.htm
Mark Sempers
Maximum wrote in message ...
>In article Jacques Steiner writes
>>
>>technique known as heel-and-toe, whereby the accelerator is blipped to
>>maintain engine revolutions when downshifting during deceleration. This
>>technique of course is used with manual transmissions.
>
>systems in recent years I thought that the habit of heel and toe had
>rear wheel drive road car adding extra braking to the rear wheels by
>regards
>--
>Maximum Bob
As I use it, that's the reason for heel and toe-ing, you use the accelerator
to bring the engine up to speed during the shift, so as not to use the
roadwheels to do the same job through the clutch, consequently avoiding the
extra braking on the rear (or front in my case) wheels.
- Mark.
Mark Sempers
Maximum wrote in message ...
>>Maximum Bob wrote:
[major snipping]
>If the point of the discussion is whether new drivers should be taught
>the technique of heel and toe, then I remain unconvimced that a
>technique developed to overcome gearbox deficiencies of a bygone era is
>of much use to Joe Public swanning around in his modern car with all the
>facilities that it gives him (ABS brakes, responsive engine with a wide
>torque band etc).
>regards
>--
>Maximum Bob
One thing still going for it in that case is smoothness, too many people
just bring the clutch back in, standing the car on it's nose. As for what
new drivers should learn, IMHO a session on a skid pan ought to be
compulsory. You are taught to conduct a car, not to drive it - How many
accidents are caused by lack of appreciation of bad conditions, how they
affect stopping distances, etc. I have seen many accidents where non-ABS
cars have simply locked up and slid into the nearest thing where if they
hadn't just closed their eyes and stamped on the middle pedal, they could
have steered round it. Ditto, ABS seems to inspire a god-complex, a large
number of drivers seem to overlook the fact that it only stops the car
locking up and can't help them if there's no grip. I wonder how many
accidents start as 'moments' that are recoverable...
- Mark.
srin...@my-dejanews.com
> [major snipping]
I was wondering: How do you you heel-and-toe in a normal street/sports car. I
have tried it in my Datsun 280Z and Mitsubishi Precis and I almost twisted my
foot trying to reach the accelerator or at least it is a major strain. It
seems like the pedals are too far apart. Could someone please explain if
there is any difference in the pedal spacing between a street car and a race
prepared car. Thanks.
-Sri
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Dick
wrote:
Hmmm, scary stuff! I guess this goes to show that it's worth checking
out the local laws before visiting foreign parts. I've never had any
sympathy for anyone thrown into jail after being caught drug smuggling
in Thailand, for example - if you break the laws of a country that you
visit, you must be prepared to accept the (often draconian)
consequences of your actions. But to be jailed as a result of a
non-injurous traffic accident does seem a bit harsh.
Is there any right of appeal if you believe that you have been wrongly
accused of being the guilty party in the accident? Having said that, I
guess that argueing with the police in Saudi Arabia is probably not a
good idea:-)
--
Dick
Doug Farrow
arrac...@geocities.bs.com (Jacques Steiner) wrote:
>It's a technique rarely used in circuit racing, but rather more common in
>rally. We were speaking of street driving however.
I first learned of this circa 1975 when Pat Bedard got a first hand lesson
in the value of this technique at the C&D Challenge race from Saab factory
driver Stig Bloomquist and wrote an article about it. Like you said, I
always considered it one item in a bag of tricks rather than something to
be used all the time.
As to teaching this in driver's ed, great idea but I'm not holding my
breath waiting for it to happen. Frankly, I'd be tickled pink if drivers ed
here (the States) included any real driving skills - braking, skid
correction etc etc, the real basics. I know my kids (currently 4 and 6) are
going to learn this stuff one way or the other.
____________________________________________________________________________
Doug Farrow Corporate IP Counsel
douglas_...@nospam.graco.com Graco Inc.
Minneapolis MN USA
____________________________________________________________________________
Mark Sempers
Hehe. Yep, the major difference between road cars and race cars tends to be
that the pedals are crammed much closer together, usually, they also all sit
at about the same level. Many road cars I've driven have the accelerator
pedal a lot closer to the floor than the brake, and quite a gap away -
presumably to stop you getting the accelerator when you stamp on the brake.
It is usually possible to heel and toe these, actually using your toe on the
brake and heel on the accelerator, rather than the more normal of flipping
the accelerator. with the right edge of your foot. My current mount is a
saab - one of the reasons I like them is the pedal layout is very conducive
to heel and toe-ing.
- Mark.
Jasper
> >
> >I was wondering: How do you you heel-and-toe in a normal street/sports car.
> I
> >have tried it in my Datsun 280Z and Mitsubishi Precis and I almost twisted
> my
> >foot trying to reach the accelerator or at least it is a major strain. It
> >seems like the pedals are too far apart. Could someone please explain if
> >there is any difference in the pedal spacing between a street car and a
> race
> >prepared car. Thanks.
Try heeling and toeing in a VW! Floor mounted pedals! Pain in the ass!
(I guess it's the same in a proper 911, too).
Then again, I'm quite tall, and find that I have to have my knees well
apart (to fit the wheel in), so h&t is quite awkward anyway.
Jasper
Maximum
>snip, not even sure who wrote this.
>> >
>> >I was wondering: How do you you heel-and-toe in a normal street/sports car.
>> I
>> >have tried it in my Datsun 280Z and Mitsubishi Precis and I almost twisted
>> my
>> >foot trying to reach the accelerator or at least it is a major strain. It
>> >seems like the pedals are too far apart. Could someone please explain if
>> >there is any difference in the pedal spacing between a street car and a
>> race
>> >prepared car. Thanks.
>
>Try heeling and toeing in a VW! Floor mounted pedals! Pain in the ass!
>(I guess it's the same in a proper 911, too).
>
involved!
regards
--
Maximum Bob
Jacques Steiner
>Yep, the major difference between road cars and race cars tends to be
>that the pedals are crammed much closer together, usually, they also all sit
>at about the same level. Many road cars I've driven have the accelerator
>pedal a lot closer to the floor than the brake, and quite a gap away -
>presumably to stop you getting the accelerator when you stamp on the brake.
>It is usually possible to heel and toe these, actually using your toe on the
>brake and heel on the accelerator,
I _hate_ having to do this, but it seems quite common these days for road
car pedals to be designed this way.
>rather than the more normal of flipping
>the accelerator. with the right edge of your foot.
This sort of problem can often be remedied, if only by attaching blocks to
the faces of the pedals, a modification I've had to perform more than a few
times. Sometimes the pedals themselves can be adjusted or, if necessary,
replaced. Not always a cheap operation to perform, but usually worth every
penny, pfennig, peso, or centime.
Dillon Pyron
> In article <6vbkev$90r$1...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au>, Andrea Cocchiglia
> <a...@ElectricMonk.dgs.monash.edu.au> writes
> >
> >I believe that Saudi Arabian law says that if you're involved in an accident,
> >it is your fault because if you had not been in that spot, the accident would
> >not have happenned. I don't know how much truth there is in that but it
> >does make some sort of sense :-)
> >
> Saudi law is based on the Sharia. Basically the rumour isn't true,
> although many of us who work/worked there believed it to be so.
>
> When there is a non-injurious accident the rights and wrongs are weighed
> on the spot by the traffic police, who decide who is at fault. The
> guilty party is then carted off to the nearest nick, and held there
> while the injured party gets estimates for repair of the damage caused
> to his property. These are presented to the chief cop in the police
> station concerned, and the guilty party has to pay in full then and
> there. If he can't he is held in prison until he, or his relatives, or
> his employer come up with the cash.
In Mexico, auto accidents are ALWAYS a criminal matter, with both parties being
treated rather harshly until the courts settle things. As a result, you will
frequently see the "at fault" party throwing money at the other, and both drive
away, "mas rapido". In heavy metro areas such as Mexico City, sheetmetal
pounders are big business.
And personal injury lawyers non-existant.
--
dillon pyron
dillon...@amd.com
Homer Simpson's most important contribuition?
DOH!
Jacques Steiner
>arrac...@geocities.bs.com (Jacques Steiner) wrote:
>>It's a technique rarely used in circuit racing, but rather more common in
>>rally. We were speaking of street driving however.
>I first learned of this circa 1975 when Pat Bedard got a first hand lesson
>in the value of this technique at the C&D Challenge race from Saab factory
>driver Stig Bloomquist and wrote an article about it. Like you said, I
>always considered it one item in a bag of tricks rather than something to
>be used all the time.
Oddly enough (the coincidence in timing with this thread seemed apt), the
Honda salesman who rode shotgun when I tested several Hondas at the motor
show this week was terrified that I would drive an auto box with two feet
(I had to switch to one to appease him) and repeated the old saw about
there being no reason to push both pedals at once, which, quite apart from
the excellent reasons for doing so under the circumstances we've already
discussed in this thread, of course also ignores the much faster brake
reaction times you can get with two feet. The guy at Citroën, on the other
hand, complemented me on my two-foot posture and remarked that he found
such attentiveness reassuring, since many (his thoughts here) people who
test automatics (in Europe) are essentially lazy and inattentive drivers.
>As to teaching this in driver's ed, great idea but I'm not holding my
>breath waiting for it to happen.
Nor am I, but I speak of ideals which I know will never come to pass.
>Frankly, I'd be tickled pink if drivers ed
>here (the States) included any real driving skills - braking, skid
>correction etc etc, the real basics. I know my kids (currently 4 and 6) are
>going to learn this stuff one way or the other.
As will mine. I plan to start them on karts fairly young. If they don't
want to race, I won't make them, but I do want them to have enough practice
to have a clear idea of car control before they ever sit behind the wheel
of a real automobile.
BTW, I have no karting experience myself, having always viewed them as toys
(and having grown up with a vintage F Ford in the family), nor am I an
expert on CVTs, so I left your question in the other thread unanswered in
the hopes that someone who knows more will take it up. I read a great deal
about the Honda and DAF CVTs a few years back, but unfortunately not enough
to recall much beyond their basic function. It's quite likely you are right
and/or I am wrong.
Mark Sempers
Doug Farrow wrote in message ...
>In article <361807c7...@news.club-internet.fr>,
>arrac...@geocities.bs.com (Jacques Steiner) wrote:
>
>>It's a technique rarely used in circuit racing, but rather more common in
>>rally. We were speaking of street driving however.
>
>I first learned of this circa 1975 when Pat Bedard got a first hand lesson
>in the value of this technique at the C&D Challenge race from Saab factory
>driver Stig Bloomquist and wrote an article about it. Like you said, I
>always considered it one item in a bag of tricks rather than something to
>be used all the time.
>
>here (the States) included any real driving skills - braking, skid
>correction etc etc, the real basics. I know my kids (currently 4 and 6) are
>going to learn this stuff one way or the other.
>
>
>
_
>Doug Farrow Corporate IP Counsel
>douglas_...@nospam.graco.com Graco Inc.
> Minneapolis MN USA
>___________________________________________________________________________
_
>
Are we talking about heel-and-toe or left foot braking here, AIUI both are
used extensively in circuit racing. Heel-and-toe is more common in lower
formulae that don't have semi-auto / clutchless boxes, it help stop you
locking the rears under braking. Left foot braking is used in F1 (and
presumably other formulae) to save the time it takes to physicaly move your
right foot, and to enable 'throttle steering' of the car on the way into
corners - See http://www.nlc.net.au/~gruer/brakes/balance/balance.html
in particular : "If the driver applies power to the rear axle, however, the
braking effort on the rear tyres is reduced and the car becomes stable.
Adjusting the power gives him a means of controlling the
understeer/oversteer during the entry phase to the corner. This is something
he is used to, steering the car on the throttle, even if the sense is
reversed: more power causes understeer- less power, oversteer."
Regards,
- Mark.
Philip Hill
> <snip>
>
> BTW, I have no karting experience myself, having always viewed them as toys
> Regards,
>
> Jacques Steiner
>
> Remove ".bs" before replying. Supprimez «.bs» avant de répondre.
> Racing colors + rasf1 humor: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/8750/
> Eric Tabarly (1932-1998) RIP
Jaques, Have you ever seen the 250cc Karts, I went to a race at Brands
Hatch a while ago - a real eye opener!! These karts use full race 2
stroke engines and hit 150mph+ Faster round Brands than a lot of *real*
racing cars - sequential 'boxes all round discs etc. More like tiny F1
cars than 'go-carts'. Check them out - definitely NOT toys
Dillon Pyron
> Jacques Steiner <arrac...@geocities.bs.com> wrote:
> : There's also the problem of loosely packed snow or sand, on(in?) which a
> : car can stop more quickly with locked wheels, which allow drifts to build
> : up in front of the tires (we've all seen the f1 cars do this in the gravel
> : traps).
>
> Indeedy: At a 4wd training course I watched one lady climb a steep muddy
> hill in her new Mitsuwhatsit Pajero, stomp on the brakes as instructed and
> roll slowly back down the hill. About half way down, she was instructed
> to jump on the brakes, lock the wheels and use the built up mud to
> stop. However, her abs equipped vehicle decided that locking the wheels
> was a no-no so she ended up simply rolling all the way back down the hill.
Sorry, I just had image of that, with an astonished instructor and students
standing around howling. :-)
>
> : There was an American sci-fi author (Larry Niven?) who proposed eliminating
> : traffic accidents simply by executing everyone involved in one, regardless
> : of who was responsible.
In Niven's sf world, jaywalking was also a capital offense. The idea was to fill
the organ banks.
>
> I believe that Saudi Arabian law says that if you're involved in an accident,
> it is your fault because if you had not been in that spot, the accident would
> not have happenned. I don't know how much truth there is in that but it
> does make some sort of sense :-)
>
> Andrea Cocchiglia
> School of Comp. Sci. & Soft. Eng., Monash University, Melbourne, Australia
>
--
slowcarfasterbike
<mark_s...@mentorg.com> wrote:
>Are we talking about heel-and-toe or left foot braking here, AIUI both are
>used extensively in circuit racing.
Actually it is quite common in Autocross here in the states,
especially with Front Wheel Drive vehicles.
>Heel-and-toe is more common in lower
>formulae that don't have semi-auto / clutchless boxes, it help stop you
>locking the rears under braking. Left foot braking is used in F1 (and
>presumably other formulae) to save the time it takes to physicaly move your
>right foot, and to enable 'throttle steering' of the car on the way into
>corners - See http://www.nlc.net.au/~gruer/brakes/balance/balance.html
>
>in particular : "If the driver applies power to the rear axle, however, the
>braking effort on the rear tyres is reduced and the car becomes stable.
>Adjusting the power gives him a means of controlling the
>understeer/oversteer during the entry phase to the corner. This is something
>he is used to, steering the car on the throttle, even if the sense is
>reversed: more power causes understeer- less power, oversteer."
>
We use it to control understeer and induce a little oversteer,
particularly in stock FWD vehicles. For the same technical reasons
you mention, you keep the throttle foot on the throttle and apply
power through the turn. By braking with the left foot, you can cause
the rear tires to slide first, inducing oversteer in a car that
otherwise would *never* oversteer.
It works really well in my VW Passat. Not so well in my Miata (MX-5)
>Regards,
>- Mark.
>
-ratboy
Slowcarfasterbike
aka stuar...@geocities.com
93 Passat GLX, 93 Mazda Miata
DoD #2057 (Denizens of Doom)
VPOG #1 (Volkswagen Passat Owners Group)
AAAAA #147 (American Association Against Acronym Abuse
Said by a Volvo driver recently: "Driving Lessons?...
why waste money when the car practically drives itself!
Dillon Pyron
In Texas (at least), there are a great number of people who don't know how to
drive in slippery conditions (best method: don't :-). But they take out their
4WD vehicle and find that they can get started with no problem. Unfortunately,
getting started is frequently the least of their problems.
There's definitely an attitude that comes from having the equipment. Or thinking
you do.
But I'm sure "the girls" would agree on this last point. :-)
Jacques Steiner
>Jacques Steiner wrote:
>> <snip>
>> BTW, I have no karting experience myself, having always viewed them as toys
>><snip>
>Jaques, Have you ever seen the 250cc Karts, I went to a race at Brands
>Hatch a while ago - a real eye opener!! These karts use full race 2
>stroke engines and hit 150mph+ Faster round Brands than a lot of *real*
>racing cars - sequential 'boxes all round discs etc. More like tiny F1
>cars than 'go-carts'. Check them out - definitely NOT toys
Oh yeah, I know. I should have said that the reason I never _got_ any
karting experience was that for a long time, I thought they were just toys.
I quite agree, tantalizing machines indeed. I never meant to imply they
weren't, just that that was my opinion at the time when I would have been
driving them. Though I suppose I could always start now.
Apologies if this appears twice. I got cut off in the midst of posting the
last time. My ISP seems to be slowly committing suicide, leaving its
clients with few services of any reliability.
Jacques Steiner
>> : There was an American sci-fi author (Larry Niven?) who proposed eliminating
>> : traffic accidents simply by executing everyone involved in one, regardless
>> : of who was responsible.
>In Niven's sf world, jaywalking was also a capital offense. The idea was to fill
>the organ banks.
I think the traffic accident bit was just part of an essay musing on
capital punishment. I remember the organ banks though, and the jaywalking
death penalty. Have you read about the arm transplant that was recently
performed? I don't know if the arm has started to work or not (or even
whether or not it was rejected). Blood, livers, kidneys, etc.; now limbs as
well. Can the "Patchwork Girl" be far off? I doubt it personally, but one
never knows.
Glenys Williams
(Jacques Steiner) wrote:
>Can the "Patchwork Girl" be far off? I doubt it personally, but one
>never knows.
I think we won't get to Patchwork Girl; there, she was put back
together with bits from other people. In Niven's world, even the
smallest offences became punishable by death because they had the
technology for organ transplants, thus extending life, but no ready
supply of bits to stick on other people.
*We*, in this brave new world, now have cloning! So we can grow our
own organs.
Glenys, who is not quite in the twentieth century.
----
We don't need less roads, we need less pavements.
Put pop.onwe and my real first name in the relevant places
Mark Sempers
Buzz wrote in message <3617f...@newsread1.dircon.co.uk>...
>
>Jacques Steiner wrote in message
>/snipped rather a lot/
>I prefer to get myself out of those nasty understeering situations by
>flooring the throttle and applying some lock in my front wheel drive race
>car. Seems to work better than even thinking about the brakes in that kind
>of situation. Normally, in a corner, you should have a reasonable amount of
>throttle on, and the brake bias is going to be front heavy aswell in a
front
>wheel drive car. All I seem to be able to achieve by braking and giving it
>some throttle at the same time is to get my brakes hotter (which is fine on
>the warm up lap). Just taking my foot off the accelerator during a corner
>achieves the transformation to oversteer, which allows me to steer the car
>round the corner using only the throttle, which seems to be the technique I
>think is missing in a lot of modern drivers, but not one I would insist on
>get this effect, then my opinion is your car is set up wrong. But if that's
>the way you want to drive, go for it.
>
>Jim Price
Yep, but (in a racing context) keeping your foot in and braking against it
leaves the car with a net accelaration rather than the deceleration found if
you lift off. Therefore you're faster out of the corner. Also, if winding on
more lock and stamping on the power turns it in, you're nowhere near the
limit of the front end grip. More power = less lateral grip from the tyres
providing that traction. Fundamental physics.
- Mark.
>
>
Mark Sempers
slowcarfasterbike wrote in message <361cd34b.9232914@news>...
Sorry, should've made it clear, that was with ref to the circuit racing bit.
Natch' it works the other way around on front wheel drive.
>
>It works really well in my VW Passat. Not so well in my Miata (MX-5)
Erm, I always thought the MX-5 was RWD?????
Regards,
- Mark.
Paulus Snoeren
>There's also the problem of loosely packed snow or sand, on(in?) which a
>car can stop more quickly with locked wheels, which allow drifts to build
>up in front of the tires (we've all seen the f1 cars do this in the gravel
>do, but it has become rare. That's a shame.
>
Well it is for that matter that the F355 challenger ABS warning lights are
been reversed.
An a control switch is standard, with optional switch at the steering wheel
Corporal Punishment
a left foot braker this gives better cornering speeds which shows in the
McLaren
Maximum wrote in message ...
>In article Ferdinand Trauttmansdorff writes
>>Maximum Bob wrote:
>>>systems in recent years I thought that the habit of heel and toe had
>>>been largly dropped,
>> certainly when braking on the absolute limit in a
>>>rear wheel drive road car adding extra braking to the rear wheels by
>>
>>You're mixing too many things together here.
>
>Yes in retrospect I should have separated the two points as above.
>>
>>Yes, nowadays engine braking is not usually required as braking
>>systems are typically powerful enough to handle any eventuality.
>
>Certainly for road use...as a point of interest the blurb for the new
>911 (996) quotes the braking system as being 4 times more powerfull than
>the engine (=1200bhp!).
>>
>>And yes, engine braking with "aggressive" downshifting can create
>>uncomfortable situations.
>
>That I presume should read "braking with "agressive downshifting..."
>the point being that the extra braking provided by the engine has the
>effect of increasing the brake bias to the rear.
>>
>>That said, skillful application of engine braking can be very useful
>>for fine control. But most importantly, skillful "non-aggressive"
>>heel and toe downshifting when "aggressively" braking gives you the
>>big benefit of always being in the proper gear when you are finished
>>braking and need to get back on the throttle.
Paulus Snoeren
Mark Sempers wrote in message <6vfa8m$4...@newsgw.mentorg.com>...
>>
>>> [major snipping]
>>
>>I was wondering: How do you you heel-and-toe in a normal street/sports
car.
>I
>>have tried it in my Datsun 280Z and Mitsubishi Precis and I almost twisted
>my
and it used to be regulated by the safety boards, REMEMBER Ohhh I stepped on
the accelorator, i was braking then the bang I crashed
Paulus Snoeren
>>the "Target Risk" principle. See it at:
>><http://www.globalserve.net/~trauttf/herman.htm>
>
>LOL! I think I've seen another version of this with just the single spike.
>There was an American sci-fi author (Larry Niven?) who proposed eliminating
>traffic accidents simply by executing everyone involved in one, regardless
>careful and defensive drivers. An American columnist proposed replacing
>airbags with guns, so when you had a big crash, you would be shot dead.
>Same principle. I can't say I'd go very far down that path, but I admit the
>problem (i.e., no blood boiling on this end). We have to find the best
>possible solutions, and I think a very high level of driver training
>coupled to very tough licensing standards would be much better than what we
>(of any country) have today.
In china you go to a real school, almost like a camp for three months, they
teach you everything, from changing sparkplugs to wheels and safety, but yet
this does not seem to work; there are still people been killed on the road.
However they imposed severe punischment and what happened, statistics are
down.
Dab
Jacques Steiner wrote in message
eliminating
>>> : traffic accidents simply by executing everyone involved in one,
regardless
>>> : of who was responsible.
>
to fill
>>the organ banks.
>
>I think the traffic accident bit was just part of an essay musing on
>capital punishment. I remember the organ banks though, and the jaywalking
>death penalty. Have you read about the arm transplant that was recently
>performed? I don't know if the arm has started to work or not (or even
>whether or not it was rejected). Blood, livers, kidneys, etc.; now limbs as
>well.
Nerves are the problem, the actual mechanics/blood supply/joints issue is
pretty much dealt with.
Dab
Jacques Steiner
>Jacques Steiner wrote in message
>>Have you read about the arm transplant that was recently
>>performed? I don't know if the arm has started to work or not (or even
>>whether or not it was rejected). Blood, livers, kidneys, etc.; now limbs as
>>well.
>Nerves are the problem, the actual mechanics/blood supply/joints issue is
>pretty much dealt with.
That was my impression, but you'll know a lot more about the subject. So
you're just the man to tell us: did they get the arm to work or not? (Or is
it too early to tell?) There was much fanfare on the wire services when
they sewed the thing on, but I haven't heard anything since.
BTW, I've been talking to the Lotus dealers again: two month wait for Elise
delivery in France, maybe less if I buy in Belgium.
Dab
Jacques Steiner wrote in message <36215ab5...@news.club-internet.fr>...
>"Dab" <bu...@haidresser.enterprise-plc.com> wrote:
>>Jacques Steiner wrote in message
>
>>>Have you read about the arm transplant that was recently
>>>performed? I don't know if the arm has started to work or not (or even
>>>whether or not it was rejected). Blood, livers, kidneys, etc.; now limbs
as
>>>well.
>
>>Nerves are the problem, the actual mechanics/blood supply/joints issue is
>>pretty much dealt with.
>
>That was my impression, but you'll know a lot more about the subject. So
>you're just the man to tell us: did they get the arm to work or not? (Or is
>it too early to tell?) There was much fanfare on the wire services when
>they sewed the thing on, but I haven't heard anything since.
I confess, I've been in Poland for a while, and I have a pile of magazines
to read now I'm back.- I don't know. I don't think expectation was for
anything other than very basic mobility, and then only after further
operations- a bit at a time, as the old song goes. No new concert
violinists will result from this technology for a while yet.... We are
years away from that kind of subtlety, I fear.
I recall seeing a piece in 'GP' about research uusing a re-sealable
vessel, kind of "Attach a nerve a day" hahaha. ah dear. mustn't laugh.
Of course, all this pales into insignificance when compared to the greatest
achievement of medical science- grafting a rectum onto a computer- Chris
Hankey.
>BTW, I've been talking to the Lotus dealers again: two month wait for Elise
>delivery in France, maybe less if I buy in Belgium.
You are very lucky- still over a year in the UK (but less than 2 months for
me! yippee!)
In 6 months, it will be the most numerous lotus ever built...!
regards, and glad to see you're still here,
Dab
Jacques Steiner
>Jacques Steiner wrote:
>I don't think expectation was for
>anything other than very basic mobility, and then only after further
>operations- a bit at a time, as the old song goes. No new concert
>violinists will result from this technology for a while yet.... We are
>years away from that kind of subtlety, I fear.
Still, even "basic mobility has got to be some sort of good news.
>>BTW, I've been talking to the Lotus dealers again: two month wait for Elise
>>delivery in France, maybe less if I buy in Belgium.
>You are very lucky- still over a year in the UK (but less than 2 months for
>me! yippee!)
The return of the license or the arrival of a second Elise?
>In 6 months, it will be the most numerous lotus ever built...!
I had though to wait to buy until the used examples had started to
depreciate significantly in value, which I assume will happen in two to
four years if the company survives (and I'm still a bit anxious on that
point). Now I'm beginning to think about buying new, since the wait (which
always annoys me) is down to two months for lhd cars here on the Continent.
I might as well enjoy the car now, and if the residuals start to look grim,
I can dump it on the market early and pick up another one used at a keeper
price a year or two later. If they _don't_ depreciate (i.e. if the company
fails next month), then I might as well buy now as ever. Sounds great,
doesn't it? Self-delusion is a wonderful state of mind.
>regards, and glad to see you're still here,
Likewise to you. Some of us had begun to wonder . . .
Dab
Jacques Steiner wrote in message
>"Dab" <bu...@haidresser.enterprise-plc.com> wrote:
>>Jacques Steiner wrote:
>
>>I don't think expectation was for
>>anything other than very basic mobility, and then only after further
>>operations- a bit at a time, as the old song goes. No new concert
>>violinists will result from this technology for a while yet.... We are
>>years away from that kind of subtlety, I fear.
>
>Still, even "basic mobility has got to be some sort of good news.
Having had a peek at acouple of articles, we are talking "very" basic.
but yes, it is progress.- and it was still "in situ" after 5 days, with no
sign of trouble, last I read .
>
>>>BTW, I've been talking to the Lotus dealers again: two month wait for
Elise
>>>delivery in France, maybe less if I buy in Belgium.
>
>>You are very lucky- still over a year in the UK (but less than 2 months
for
>>me! yippee!)
>
>The return of the license or the arrival of a second Elise?
Both. I'm going to supercharge this one. 0-100 kph in about 8.5, and only
another 20 KG. !
>
>>In 6 months, it will be the most numerous lotus ever built...!
>
>I had though to wait to buy until the used examples had started to
>depreciate significantly in value, which I assume will happen in two to
>four years if the company survives (and I'm still a bit anxious on that
>point).
The company *will* survive, no question about it.
Now I'm beginning to think about buying new, since the wait (which
>always annoys me) is down to two months for lhd cars here on the Continent.
>I might as well enjoy the car now, and if the residuals start to look grim,
>I can dump it on the market early and pick up another one used at a keeper
>price a year or two later. If they _don't_ depreciate (i.e. if the company
>fails next month), then I might as well buy now as ever. Sounds great,
>doesn't it? Self-delusion is a wonderful state of mind.
I don't think they will *ever* depreciate like a "normal" car- only if they
fall apart in ten years or so- Look at M100 elans- going now for the same
money as ever, and they last very well, too- as long as they are run every
couple of days.
Put your money down, Jacques- the car is so delicate, so capable, you will
fall in love, and won't even entertain the idea of selling it on.
>
>>regards, and glad to see you're still here,
>
>Likewise to you. Some of us had begun to wonder . . .
...and hope , no doubt. ;-))
Dab
Jacques Steiner
>Jacques Steiner wrote in message<lines slightly reformatted for clarity>
>>>>BTW, I've been talking to the Lotus dealers again: two
>>>>month wait for Elise delivery in France, maybe less if I
>>>>buy in Belgium.
>>>You are very lucky- still over a year in the UK (but less
>>>than 2 months for me! yippee!)
>>The return of the license or the arrival of a second Elise?
>Both.
Are you going to keep them both? In street trim, or maybe build a track car
or a hill-climber out of one?
>I'm going to supercharge this one. 0-100 kph in about 8.5,
Surely a misprint? Was that "mph" or "4.5" or something?
>and only
>another 20 KG. !
What sort of power will you have? I've been looking at supercharged VVCs
(in the neighborhood of 200-210 bhp). If I had one installed, I might have
to register the car abroad (maybe Belgium), since the Service des Mines
here makes things very difficult when you go about swapping engines and
adding forced induction. That shouldn't overpower the chassis, seeing as
the Sport engine puts out 190.
>>I had though to wait to buy until the used examples had started to
>>depreciate significantly in value, which I assume will happen in two to
>>four years if the company survives (and I'm still a bit anxious on that
>>point).
>The company *will* survive, no question about it.
Do you know something I don't? Last I heard they were laying off engineers
right and left, which 1) cripples their ability to offer the engineering
services which provide the bulk of their revenue, and 2) bodes ill for the
development of the future models with which Lotus hopes to turn a
reasonable profit (the profit margin on the Elise is said to be fairly
small). Proton is in trouble, as are all of the SE Asian companies to which
Proton had hoped to shop Lotus' services; several analysts have been
forecasting the imminent sale of Lotus, the question being whether or not
anyone would want the marginal car-building arm, or would just want to
salvage what remains of the engineering concern. As I say, I'm still
anxious about the survival of the company.
>Put your money down, Jacques- the car is so delicate, so capable, you will
>fall in love, and won't even entertain the idea of selling it on.
I'm already in love. I would only sell on to get another example later at a
windfall price (I'm greedy - I want as many sportscars as I can afford). I
spent a week with one last year and have driven several since, on the road
and at the track (mega-fun). I've got a few questions, however, if you've
time to answer them; we can take it to e-mail if you'd like, but if so,
you'll have to mail me first.
1) Have you had any stability problems when pushing hard, specifically
instances of excessive tail-happiness? The only version I've driven all the
way to the limit was a track car with a lowered suspension and big slicks
(though I haven't yet driven the Sport motored versions). I've heard
reports of occasional 348/205GTI style tail-loops, and I'd really not like
to experience that sort of problem on the road.
2) Do you think the car would react well to a slight lowering and
stiffening job on the road (i.e. would the ride degrade excessively?)? I
haven't yet had the chance to drive anything but the stock setup on the
street; while it seems a very good thing, I was greatly taken by the extra
body control on the lowered track car I drove, and I'd like to see how much
of that I could work into a road car. It seems that such a light car could
stand a slightly sterner suspension, but the last thing I want to do is
loosen my fillings on the cobblestones.
3) Have you any experience with the plexiglass headlamp covers? They are
homologated in France, but two of the dealers I've talked to told me that
they'd never sold a car with the covers, and that they discourage their
installation because of fogging problems.
>>>regards, and glad to see you're still here,
>>Likewise to you. Some of us had begun to wonder . . .
>...and hope , no doubt. ;-))
Naturally.
Regards,
Dab
Jacques Steiner wrote in message <36229172...@news.club->
>>>The return of the license or the arrival of a second Elise?
>
>>Both.
>
>Are you going to keep them both? In street trim, or maybe build a track car
>or a hill-climber out of one?
I sold the first one in June. It had a tuned VVC engine - 165 bhp. red line
at 8,000 - fantastic... Also had a set of racing tyres/wheels-, but the
suspension unchanged.
>
>>I'm going to supercharge this one. 0-100 kph in about 8.5,
>
>Surely a misprint? Was that "mph" or "4.5" or something?
It was of course "MPH" D'oh! sorry/.
>
>>and only
>>another 20 KG. !
>
>What sort of power will you have? I've been looking at supercharged VVCs
>(in the neighborhood of 200-210 bhp). If I had one installed, I might have
>to register the car abroad (maybe Belgium), since the Service des Mines
>here makes things very difficult when you go about swapping engines and
>adding forced induction. That shouldn't overpower the chassis, seeing as
>the Sport engine puts out 190.
yes- you're spot-on, as ever. about 210 bhp from the supercharger, but the
torque is over 200 ft/lbs, too- The sport engine actually gives a little
over 200 bhp- I know of a chap who has had his on a dyno, and it gives 198
at the wheels! - but no bootspace at all...
>
>>>I had though to wait to buy until the used examples had started to
>>>depreciate significantly in value, which I assume will happen in two to
>>>four years if the company survives (and I'm still a bit anxious on that
>>>point).
>
>>The company *will* survive, no question about it.
>
>Do you know something I don't? Last I heard they were laying off engineers
>right and left, which 1) cripples their ability to offer the engineering
>services which provide the bulk of their revenue, and 2) bodes ill for the
>development of the future models with which Lotus hopes to turn a
>reasonable profit (the profit margin on the Elise is said to be fairly
>small). Proton is in trouble, as are all of the SE Asian companies to which
>Proton had hoped to shop Lotus' services; several analysts have been
>forecasting the imminent sale of Lotus, the question being whether or not
>anyone would want the marginal car-building arm, or would just want to
>salvage what remains of the engineering concern. As I say, I'm still
>anxious about the survival of the company.
I know some folks that are very close to the factory, as *they* say. If it
weren't for Artioli, the whole thing would have been sold already. The
engineering and chassis development side *still* has a lot of work on the
books. The elise is becoming more profitable every month, too, . The
development work for the Vauxhall/opel astra/whatever is worth over $40
million . This is the fiorst time for years that the car side has looked
solid. Toyota were interested in a buy-out.
I could even see a certain German company buying the company, for the
extruded aluminium technology alone.
>
>>Put your money down, Jacques- the car is so delicate, so capable, you
will
>>fall in love, and won't even entertain the idea of selling it on.
>
>I'm already in love. I would only sell on to get another example later at a
>windfall price (I'm greedy - I want as many sportscars as I can afford). I
>spent a week with one last year and have driven several since, on the road
>and at the track (mega-fun). I've got a few questions, however, if you've
>time to answer them; we can take it to e-mail if you'd like, but if so,
>you'll have to mail me first.
er, OK- but that *is* a real mail address!
>
>1) Have you had any stability problems when pushing hard, specifically
>instances of excessive tail-happiness? The only version I've driven all the
>way to the limit was a track car with a lowered suspension and big slicks
>(though I haven't yet driven the Sport motored versions). I've heard
>reports of occasional 348/205GTI style tail-loops, and I'd really not like
>to experience that sort of problem on the road.
The earlier models had a tendency to break away at high speeds o sweeping
corners- not nice. It didn't happen to me, but has happened tom people of
my acquaintance. Not nice, but catchable. This has been addressed by
different tyres, and slight mods to the suspension.
The limits on -road are such that I genuinely think only a suicidal person
would reach them- bear in mind that this car has 205 tyres (or225) at the
rear , yet weighs 680 KG. a lot of grip.
Then again, it isn't a lunatic-high speed machine. Even with 200 bhp, I
would have it geared to a maximum of about 140.
>
>2) Do you think the car would react well to a slight lowering and
>stiffening job on the road (i.e. would the ride degrade excessively?)? I
>haven't yet had the chance to drive anything but the stock setup on the
>street; while it seems a very good thing, I was greatly taken by the extra
>body control on the lowered track car I drove, and I'd like to see how much
>of that I could work into a road car. It seems that such a light car could
>stand a slightly sterner suspension, but the last thing I want to do is
>loosen my fillings on the cobblestones.
The track cars I've driven certainly have less roll, but in terms of
roadcar/everyday use compromise- I think I'll trust the Lotus engineers.
When I asked my dealer about the relatively soft suspension- he said It is
*meant* to roll a little , it aids the four-wheel drift. !!! [that is so
delectable.]
>
>3) Have you any experience with the plexiglass headlamp covers? They are
>homologated in France, but two of the dealers I've talked to told me that
>they'd never sold a car with the covers, and that they discourage their
>installation because of fogging problems.
This has alegedly been fixed now- though the clamshell is (incredibly
enough) different with them fitted. Aerodynamically it makes next to no
difference, and I personally prefer the looks without the covers. I would
recommend armorcote, or a similar anti stonechip film on the front clamshell
and "bonnet" though.
Dab
Jacques Steiner
>Jacques Steiner wrote
>The sport engine actually gives a little
>over 200 bhp- I know of a chap who has had his on a dyno, and it gives 198
>at the wheels! - but no bootspace at all...
Apart from the homologation difficulties with the Sport engine, that
eensy-teensy boot still might come in handy, and I would loathe be rid of
it. It was certainly a consideration in looking into superchargers. What
model are you planning to fit (I've seen several proposed)?
>I know some folks that are very close to the factory, as *they* say. If it
>weren't for Artioli, the whole thing would have been sold already. The
>engineering and chassis development side *still* has a lot of work on the
>books. The elise is becoming more profitable every month, too, . The
>development work for the Vauxhall/opel astra/whatever is worth over $40
>million . This is the fiorst time for years that the car side has looked
>solid.
Good news indeed if all true.
>Toyota were interested in a buy-out.
And have been for ten years, as best as I can tell.
>I could even see a certain German company buying the company, for the
>extruded aluminium technology alone.
If you're speaking of Audi, I doubt it, since they already have a
partnership with Alcoa; Lotus, like Renault, went with Hydro Aluminium (or
Aluminum?) of Norway.
>er, OK- but that *is* a real mail address!
Now how was I supposed to know that after you "cried wolf" for months
changing your "address" and handle every third day??!!! Glad to know it
though. Welcome to the Wonderful World of Spam®. ;-)
>The earlier models had a tendency to break away at high speeds o sweeping
>corners- not nice. It didn't happen to me, but has happened tom people of
>my acquaintance. Not nice, but catchable. This has been addressed by
>different tyres, and slight mods to the suspension.
I think it was partially a question of some imperfect parts bending and
allowing ultra-large rear toe-out, but some people seemed to be reporting
the problem with undamaged cars. I'm glad to hear it's been fixed.
>The limits on -road are such that I genuinely think only a suicidal person
>would reach them- bear in mind that this car has 205 tyres (or225) at the
>rear , yet weighs 680 KG. a lot of grip.
True enough.
>The track cars I've driven certainly have less roll, but in terms of
>roadcar/everyday use compromise- I think I'll trust the Lotus engineers.
I trust no one! ;-)
>When I asked my dealer about the relatively soft suspension- he said It is
>*meant* to roll a little , it aids the four-wheel drift. !!! [that is so
>delectable.]
Very, very true. Well, I'll just have to buy and live with the car for a
while and then decide whether to leave it as is or to play around with the
settings.
<about fogging headlamp covers>
>This has alegedly been fixed now- though the clamshell is (incredibly
>enough) different with them fitted.
Oh dear. So I guess if you decide you don't like them, you're SOL.
>Aerodynamically it makes next to no
>difference, and I personally prefer the looks without the covers.
I prefer the looks with the covers, just as I prefer the nose of the Mk. I
E-types to their latter day brethren.
>I would
>recommend armorcote, or a similar anti stonechip film on the front clamshell
>and "bonnet" though.
Thanks for the answers and advice. I'm definitely _very_ interested. I
think I'll go rent another one for a week or two, and if the rental agent
can't pry the keys out of my hand afterwards, I'll know it's True Love.
Jacques Steiner
>"Dab" <bu...@haidresser.enterprise-plc.com> wrote:
>>I could even see a certain German company buying the company, for the
>>extruded aluminium technology alone.
>If you're speaking of Audi, I doubt it, since they already have a
>partnership with Alcoa;
Or was that Alcan? I forget which. One of the ones in N. America anyway.
>Lotus, like Renault, went with Hydro Aluminium (or
>Aluminum?) of Norway.
Regards,
Vegarus
Jacques Steiner kirjoitti viestissä
<36229172...@news.club-internet.fr>...
...snip
>I'm already in love. I would only sell on to get another example later at a
>windfall price (I'm greedy - I want as many sportscars as I can afford).
<envious sigh> How many sportscars do you actually have?
regards Jamo
a proud owner of 1969 Triumph <cough COUGH>herald<cough> ;o)
>Jacques Steiner
Mark Sadler
<lines slightly reformatted for clarity>
>>>>BTW, I've been talking to the Lotus dealers again: two
>>>>month wait for Elise delivery in France, maybe less if I
>>>>buy in Belgium.
>>>You are very lucky- still over a year in the UK (but less
>>>than 2 months for me! yippee!)
I've got to wait until June...Boo..
>2) Do you think the car would react well to a slight lowering and
>stiffening job on the road (i.e. would the ride degrade excessively?)?
I was thinking the same thing. The standard suspension seems abit
too soft, of course it may be tricky to tweak it just right, I expect
I'll be forced to do alot of laps round Goodwood or something...
Waiting,
Mark
Jacques Steiner
>Jacques Steiner kirjoitti viestissä
>>I would only sell on to get another example later at a
>>windfall price (I'm greedy - I want as many sportscars as I can afford).
><envious sigh> How many sportscars do you actually have?
Do you mean ones that run? ;-) At the moment not so many. Here in Paris,
a Fiat 124 Spider, a Fiat X1/9 (my "new" toy), and my lovely old
three-abreast Matra Murena which I finally restored to running order the
weekend-before-last. None especially noted for its devastating performance.
In fact, my Mini can eat them all alive, as can several of my more
quotidian cars. The real thoroughbreds were all sold or stolen some time
ago. :-(
>regards Jamo
>a proud owner of 1969 Triumph <cough COUGH>herald<cough> ;o)
Saloon, coupé, or drop-head?
Dab
Jacques Steiner wrote in message <3622cf6...@news.club-internet.fr>...
>>over 200 bhp- I know of a chap who has had his on a dyno, and it gives 198
>>at the wheels! - but no bootspace at all...
>
>eensy-teensy boot still might come in handy, and I would loathe be rid of
>it. It was certainly a consideration in looking into superchargers. What
>model are you planning to fit (I've seen several proposed)?
Whatever Turbo Technics finally decide on- it is *still* not ready- they've
been promising me (and others) a final spec for months- june, then august,
now October...
Regarding the boot- I did a "Round Britain" in my First Elise, Two weeks,
4,500 miles- The boot takes a reasonably sized bag. As I am sure you're
aware.
>
>Good news indeed if all true.
Artioli is the problem, as ever- he wants to be on the board.
>
>>Toyota were interested in a buy-out.
>
>And have been for ten years, as best as I can tell.
Well- they came within a whisker of buying in the early 80s , then lost
interest for a while- but Lotus have done a remarkable amount of chassis
development work for them.
>
>>I could even see a certain German company buying the company, for the
>>extruded aluminium technology alone.
>
>If you're speaking of Audi, I doubt it, since they already have a
>partnership with Alcoa; Lotus, like Renault, went with Hydro Aluminium (or
>Aluminum?) of Norway.
I was thinking of BMW.
>
>>er, OK- but that *is* a real mail address!
>
>Now how was I supposed to know that after you "cried wolf" for months
>changing your "address" and handle every third day??!!! Glad to know it
>though. Welcome to the Wonderful World of Spam®. ;-)
I have "powerful" filters!
>
>I think it was partially a question of some imperfect parts bending and
>allowing ultra-large rear toe-out, but some people seemed to be reporting
>the problem with undamaged cars. I'm glad to hear it's been fixed.
There was a problem with a bolt working loose on very early cars, but the
actual problem on high-speed sweeping corners has been eradicated- though
it slows the car down on the track, harder to get oversteer.
>
>>The limits on -road are such that I genuinely think only a suicidal person
>>would reach them- bear in mind that this car has 205 tyres (or225) at the
>>rear , yet weighs 680 KG. a lot of grip.
>
>True enough.
>
>>The track cars I've driven certainly have less roll, but in terms of
>>roadcar/everyday use compromise- I think I'll trust the Lotus engineers.
>
>I trust no one! ;-)
hahhahahaha. Scarey bananas in the wet, or a lot of fun , depending on
where you are / how quickly you *need* to get to your destination.
>
>>When I asked my dealer about the relatively soft suspension- he said It is
>>*meant* to roll a little , it aids the four-wheel drift. !!! [that is so
>>delectable.]
>
>Very, very true. Well, I'll just have to buy and live with the car for a
>while and then decide whether to leave it as is or to play around with the
>settings.
>
><about fogging headlamp covers>
>
>>This has alegedly been fixed now- though the clamshell is (incredibly
>>enough) different with them fitted.
>
>Oh dear. So I guess if you decide you don't like them, you're SOL.
yup.
>
>Thanks for the answers and advice. I'm definitely _very_ interested. I
>think I'll go rent another one for a week or two, and if the rental agent
>can't pry the keys out of my hand afterwards, I'll know it's True Love.
...and of course- it *looks* a million dollars, too.
Dab
Dab
Mark Sadler wrote in message <36234BF6...@guildford.ericsson.se>...
><lines slightly reformatted for clarity>
>
>>>>>BTW, I've been talking to the Lotus dealers again: two
>>>>>month wait for Elise delivery in France, maybe less if I
>>>>>buy in Belgium.
>
>>>>You are very lucky- still over a year in the UK (but less
>>>>than 2 months for me! yippee!)
>
>I've got to wait until June...Boo..
Mark- be prepared for it to arrive earlier than promised- they are working
3 shifts at Hethel...
>
>>2) Do you think the car would react well to a slight lowering and
>>stiffening job on the road (i.e. would the ride degrade excessively?)?
>
>
>I was thinking the same thing. The standard suspension seems abit
>too soft, of course it may be tricky to tweak it just right, I expect
>I'll be forced to do alot of laps round Goodwood or something...
gentlemen- Lotus suspensions have always been soft- the subtlety is all in
the damping. Take the Excel as an example, not the quickest of cars in a
straight line, but by god it can handle- and on roads of a
less-than-perfect surface, will walk away from more stiffly suspended cars
with *far* more power.
In the elise, the standard suspension is why so many pundits adored the car-
It handles magnificently, but the suspension makes it driveable on a daily
basis.
Mark- you going to Goodwood in November, Club 96 ? I have a guest drive in
a Sport Elise lined up...
Dab - now with *real* e-mail address...
Vegarus
Jacques Steiner kirjoitti viestissä
<362377c1...@news.club-internet.fr>...
>"Vegarus" <jarmo.h...@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
>
>><envious sigh> How many sportscars do you actually have?
>
>Do you mean ones that run? ;-) At the moment not so many. Here in Paris,
>a Fiat 124 Spider, a Fiat X1/9 (my "new" toy), and my lovely old
>three-abreast Matra Murena which I finally restored to running order the
>weekend-before-last. None especially noted for its devastating performance.
Aaargh... If those are your toys I hardly dare to ask what is a *real* car
in your eyes.. Well, at least you ain't got any TRs <relieved sigh>.. ;o)
>In fact, my Mini can eat them all alive, as can several of my more
>quotidian cars. The real thoroughbreds were all sold or stolen some time
>ago. :-(
As a rally enthusiast there is always a place for Mini in my heart.
>>a proud owner of 1969 Triumph <cough COUGH>herald<cough> ;o)
>Saloon, coupé, or drop-head?
Presently drophead, but it is originally a saloon (I still have the roof
left). One of the advantages of Herald is that you can make that kind of
modification pretty easily. Actually I get a lot of fun out of it. People
usually think that it is a lot older than it really is (and indeed, Triumph
Herald was designed by Giovanni Michelotti at the end of 1950s) and I've had
many delightful moments when they try to guess its age.
>Jacques Steiner
Jamo
Paul B
<jarmo.h...@kolumbus.fi> writes
>>>a proud owner of 1969 Triumph <cough COUGH>herald<cough> ;o)
>
>>Saloon, coupé, or drop-head?
>
>Presently drophead, but it is originally a saloon (I still have the roof
>left). One of the advantages of Herald is that you can make that kind of
>modification pretty easily. Actually I get a lot of fun out of it. People
>usually think that it is a lot older than it really is (and indeed, Triumph
>Herald was designed by Giovanni Michelotti at the end of 1950s) and I've had
>many delightful moments when they try to guess its age.
>
>>Jacques Steiner
>
>Jamo
>
--
Paul B
Note: reply to thund...@larkhall.co.uk if replying by Email.
A complete history of F1, including drivers, cars and circuits, can be found at
http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/index1.htm
David Betts
>Presently drophead, but it is originally a saloon (I still have the roof
>left). One of the advantages of Herald is that you can make that kind of
>modification pretty easily. Actually I get a lot of fun out of it. People
>usually think that it is a lot older than it really is (and indeed,
Triumph
>Herald was designed by Giovanni Michelotti at the end of 1950s) and I've
had
>many delightful moments when they try to guess its age.
One of the great advantages of the Herald's anachronistic (even at the
time) separate chassis.
It should, of course, have been of monocoque construction. But the
only people with the capacity to have made it (Pressed Steel I think)
were owned by BMC and Triumph didn't want to put themselves in their
hands. That's why they went with the separate chassis and small,
detachable panels which could be made by anybody.
The spin off was the capability to make the car as a saloon,
convertible and coupe - then to use the same chassis for the
Spitfire/GT6....serendipitous.
David Betts
"Give me Goodwood on a summer's day and you can keep the rest of the
world" - Roy Salvadori
Vegarus
Paul B kirjoitti viestissä <1dj5fNA2...@larkhall.co.uk>...
>In article <701fvr$9ti$1...@news.kolumbus.fi>, Vegarus
><jarmo.h...@kolumbus.fi> writes
>>>>a proud owner of 1969 Triumph <cough COUGH>herald<cough> ;o)
>>
>>>Saloon, coupé, or drop-head?
>>
>>left). One of the advantages of Herald is that you can make that kind of
>>modification pretty easily.
>>
>>
>>Jamo
>>
>Next project - drop a Vitesse engine into it :-)
I know, I know: that old drophead could really use those 2 extra cylinders,
but having Lucas (sorry, I try to avoid four-letter words in the future)
electrical system it could use some electricity too, at least now and
then...
>Paul B
Jamo
Vegarus
David Betts kirjoitti viestissä <701uje$87q$4...@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>The spin off was the capability to make the car as a saloon,
>convertible and coupe - then to use the same chassis for the
>Spitfire/GT6....serendipitous.
I think it was Pasteur who said that "luck favours prepared minds". It would
be interesting to find out what role serendipity has had in automotive or
motorsport industry...
>David Betts
Jamo
Jacques Steiner
>>><envious sigh> How many sportscars do you actually have?
>>Do you mean ones that run? ;-) <snip>
>Well, at least you ain't got any TRs <relieved sigh>.. ;o)
Well, I hate to ruin your day, but I also have a brace of TR-6s: a parts
car and another awaiting bodywork (rust) repair, a replacement rear-end,
and an engine overhaul (with the parts mostly from the other car). So
there. ;-) But they don't really count unless they run, and neither car
is in France anyway (which is mostly why the work hasn't been done yet).
>As a rally enthusiast there is always a place for Mini in my heart.
A place in my heart, and one in my garage, too. Until the day I die or get
run down by a lorry in one, which amounts to the same thing. In the latter
instance, the steering column would quite literally find a place in my
heart. ;-)
>>>a proud owner of 1969 Triumph <cough COUGH>herald<cough> ;o)
>People
>usually think that it is a lot older than it really is (and indeed, Triumph
>Herald was designed by Giovanni Michelotti at the end of 1950s) and I've had
>many delightful moments when they try to guess its age.
Do you get classic car exemption from road tax where you live? I understand
the Labour parliament in Britain dropped the 25-year roll-over now.
Philistines.
Jacques Steiner
>gentlemen- Lotus suspensions have always been soft- the subtlety is all in
>the damping. <snip>
>In the elise, the standard suspension is why so many pundits adored the car-
>It handles magnificently, but the suspension makes it driveable on a daily
>basis.
Yes, yes, I quite agree. However, I own several non-sporting cars in which
to luxuriate when I want supreme comfort, so I might still be willing to
give up a (small) bit of ride comfort for a bit less roll and weight
transfer and a lower c.o.g. It's always a trade-off, or almost always.
As to body roll: the Citroën Xantia Activa has always had awesome grip for
a front-drive sedan by virtue of the active anti-roll system (originally
developed by Lotus). Problem was, you had to accept a ride that was just
too hard to be reasonable in a family sedan (I'm told it was less to do
with the inherent bias of the Activa system than with an overestimation of
what the clients would want). I've driven the latest versions though, and
they are much improved. Now if they would just give us thirty more
horsepower in the V6 . . . It has to be said though that the car is a bit
spooky close to the limits; it's harder to notice that you're approaching
them since the horizon stays at the same angle. It can be a bit dangerous
to push hard on the road.
Jacques Steiner
>Paul B kirjoitti viestissä <1dj5fNA2...@larkhall.co.uk>...
<of a 1969 Triumph (a real Triumph, Paul ;-) ) Herald>
>>Next project - drop a Vitesse engine into it :-)
>I know, I know: that old drophead could really use those 2 extra cylinders,
>but having Lucas (sorry, I try to avoid four-letter words in the future)
>electrical system it could use some electricity too, at least now and
>then...
Ah, Lucas: all hail the Prince of Darkness. When I first saw Scott Adams'
character Phil, the Prince of Insufficient Light ("I darn you to Heck!!"),
the thought came instantly that it was a damned shame he hadn't been named
Lucas. Then I decided that while Lucas headlamps were woefully inadequate,
the original "Prince of Darkness" tag was surely more accurate given the
total electrical failures we, the disciples of ancient British wisdom, have
all experienced.
John D. Owen
> >>
> >>
> >>Presently drophead, but it is originally a saloon (I still have the roof
> >>left). One of the advantages of Herald is that you can make that kind of
> >>modification pretty easily.
> >>>Jacques Steiner
> >>Jamo
> >>
>
> I know, I know: that old drophead could really use those 2 extra cylinders,
> but having Lucas (sorry, I try to avoid four-letter words in the future)
> electrical system it could use some electricity too, at least now and
> then...
With the old Prince of Darkness electrical system, occasional
electricity is about all you'd get. There must be a treatise for
someone in the cross-correlation between the death of the British
motor industry (as an independent entity, at least) and the use of
Messrs Charles Lucas and Co's electrical equipment.
Mind you, I have to say that talk of Triumph Heralds as having an
'advantage' breaks me up entirely. I well remember a friend of mine
having a Herald Vitesse. All was well until I followed him aboard
another car once when he was pushing it along a bit. After watching
the way the swing axles worked, and the way the tyres tucked under, I
was very leery of getting in the car with him again! Life is too short
and precious to be risked in such a way, and with the Vitesse the only
main 'advantage' was you arrived at the accident that much faster.
Same used to happen with Spitfires, of course, which was why I stuck
with Spridgets -- safer handling, and much more sporting in character.
Same bloody Lucas electrics, though.
JDO
James Robson
o/d, 2nd '79 1500 o/d) not from bad lights but from the fact that they were
mounted vertically and picked up all the shit/spray/salt/etc from the roads.
I regularly had to stop and clean the bloody things. That said, car
manufacturers haven't learned, my VW Golf has the same problem (or is it
that I haven't learned?).
Jamie
Jacques Steiner wrote in message
<3624bcdd...@news.club-internet.fr>...
>"Vegarus" <jarmo.h...@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
>>Paul B kirjoitti viestissä <1dj5fNA2...@larkhall.co.uk>...
>
><of a 1969 Triumph (a real Triumph, Paul ;-) ) Herald>
>
>>>Next project - drop a Vitesse engine into it :-)
>
>>I know, I know: that old drophead could really use those 2 extra
cylinders,
>>but having Lucas (sorry, I try to avoid four-letter words in the future)
>>electrical system it could use some electricity too, at least now and
>>then...
>
James Robson
John D. Owen wrote in message <3624C7...@open.ac.uk>...
[snip lots of bits]
> Mind you, I have to say that talk of Triumph Heralds as having an
> 'advantage' breaks me up entirely. I well remember a friend of mine
> having a Herald Vitesse. All was well until I followed him aboard
> another car once when he was pushing it along a bit. After watching
> the way the swing axles worked, and the way the tyres tucked under, I
> was very leery of getting in the car with him again! Life is too short
> and precious to be risked in such a way, and with the Vitesse the only
> main 'advantage' was you arrived at the accident that much faster.
> Same used to happen with Spitfires, of course, which was why I stuck
> with Spridgets -- safer handling, and much more sporting in character.
> Same bloody Lucas electrics, though.
>
> JDO
Its swings and roundabouts, MG vs Triumph. We Triumph owners had the ability
to replace a chassis, you MG owners had the ability to collapse in the
middle. The swing axles, tho', was great fun. Oh the times I had terrifying
passengers on sharp corners (roundabouts were the best) in my Mk III Spit.
They took all the fun away with the 1500 (and the Mk IV as well maybe) by
the simple trick of letting the centre on the transverse spring slide as the
body shifted to the side. Prior to that the centre of the spring had been
attached to the body.
Ah, those were the days... (take this as a "don't have kids if you want to
enjoy your aging rag-top" type of post)
Jamie
Vegarus
Jacques Steiner kirjoitti viestissä
<3624b568...@news.club-internet.fr>...
>Well, I hate to ruin your day, but I also have a brace of TR-6s: a parts
>car and another awaiting bodywork (rust) repair, a replacement rear-end,
>and an engine overhaul (with the parts mostly from the other car). So
>there. ;-) (snip...)
Can you believe that in the 1970s TR6 was described as "the last of the
dinosaurs" and "a real rugged monster". At least that is what Graham Robson
wrote in his Triumph bible. This reminds me a Triumph-expert I met couple of
years ago. He started to complain how TR3s are so difficult to drive. I even
think he used the word 'horrible'. Somehow he couldn't understand why I
found his remarks so hilarious... Well, I forgave him because he drove the
finest Stag I've seen. ;o)
>Do you get classic car exemption from road tax where you live? I understand
>the Labour parliament in Britain dropped the 25-year roll-over now.
>Philistines.
Yes, we have a *similar* system (I suppose the way these kind of
arrangements are put into practice varies a lot in Europe), but there are
still lots of people who think that all old cars belong to the scrap yard.
:o(
>Jacques Steiner
Jamo
Paul B
Robson <ja...@indexsystems.nospam.co.uk> writes
4 was one of the last of the 1300's, and had overdrive. A very pretty
car, handled reasonably well, although I did lose it in a big way one
time. Made me go out and buy an SAH rear spring, which made the rear
geometry rather more stable. The trouble was, when they tucked under it
was very sudden, and likely to catch you unawares.
Had 3 TR's, too. A 4, a 3A, and an early 6. The 3a was the most fun, but
the 6 was the fastest and, strangely, the most admired. Pretty reliable,
too, if you changed the filters regularly.
Good cars, sadly missed :-)
Paul B
<arrac...@geocities.bs.com> writes
>
>Do you get classic car exemption from road tax where you live? I understand
>the Labour parliament in Britain dropped the 25-year roll-over now.
>Philistines.
>
at the 25-year mark.
James Robson
job which had a company car (C reg Golf GTI). I did not lose touch with it
tho' as I sold it to a friend (who swine that he is) left it outside to rot.
I eventually offered to garage it for him when he let the MOT lapse and 18
months later he sold what was left to someone who swore that he would
restore it...
Several years later, my first son arrived and we needed a second car so I
bought a 1500 overdrive. (The rationale being that if all three of us wanted
to go out then we could take the four seater (at the time a Volvo 360 GLT
(yeuch!) - the company car having gone the same way as the comapny) but if
any two of us wanted to go out we had our choice (mind you Stewart, my son,
did not have a lot of say in the matter). Then son #2 came along and I had
to get rid of this one too. So I bought a Golf GTI. The beauty of the
Spitfires was that I bought the first one for £800.00 and sold it for
£1000.00, the second bought for £2000.00 and sold for £2000.00, so cost of
ownership was low.
That said I did spend about £2000.00 on the 1500 in the two years I kept
it - new piston rings, exhausts (sporty type), manifold, filters, etc.
Jamie
Paul B wrote in message ...
[snip lots of bits]
>I had 3 Spitfires (MkI, III, and 4), all of which were great fun. The Mk
>4 was one of the last of the 1300's, and had overdrive. A very pretty
>car, handled reasonably well, although I did lose it in a big way one
>time. Made me go out and buy an SAH rear spring, which made the rear
>geometry rather more stable. The trouble was, when they tucked under it
>was very sudden, and likely to catch you unawares.
>
>Had 3 TR's, too. A 4, a 3A, and an early 6. The 3a was the most fun, but
>the 6 was the fastest and, strangely, the most admired. Pretty reliable,
>too, if you changed the filters regularly.
>
>Good cars, sadly missed :-)
Peter Scoular
>Had 3 TR's, too. A 4, a 3A, and an early 6. The 3a was the most fun, but
>the 6 was the fastest and, strangely, the most admired. Pretty reliable,
>too, if you changed the filters regularly.
>
strong...I once hit a tractor with one at high speed 60-70mph and rolled
it into a 30ft ditch,(it was night, he was drunk, in the middle of the
road with no lights, I got the blame but then this was in Italy and the
other bloke knew the police chief!). I was OK and the TR6 wasn`t in too
bad shape considering the impact...the tractor was reduced to pieces and
the other bloke ended up in hospital.
As regards reliability IIRC the main problems were always with the fuel
injection, in particular with the fuel pump which used to overheat and
vapourise the fuel making hot restarts a nightmare. A popular fix was to
route the fuel through a copper pipe coiled round the pump to keep it
cool.
>Good cars, sadly missed :-)
That they were.
regards
--
Peter :-)
Keep the faith.
David Betts
>The beauty of the
>Spitfires was that I bought the first one for £800.00 and sold it for
>£1000.00, the second bought for £2000.00 and sold for £2000.00, so cost of
>ownership was low.
>
>That said I did spend about £2000.00 on the 1500 in the two years I kept
>it - new piston rings, exhausts (sporty type), manifold, filters, etc.
Bought my GT6 for £1000 and sold it seven years later for £1000 - and only
spent £800 on top of routine servicing in that time, including an engine
rebuild. Only sold it because Sarah grew out of the baby seat we had bolted
in the back. Wish I could have afforded to keep it.
David Betts
>Jacques Steiner writes
>>
>>Do you get classic car exemption from road tax where you live? I
understand
>>the Labour parliament in Britain dropped the 25-year roll-over now.
>>Philistines.
>>
>Don't think that's true. Cars and 'bikes are still becoming tax-exempt
>at the 25-year mark.
Sorry, but Jacques is right, Paul. A fixed cut-off point was applied at the
last budget.
Paul B
<David...@email.msn.com> writes
>Paul B wrote
>>Jacques Steiner writes
>>>
>>>Do you get classic car exemption from road tax where you live? I
>understand
>>>the Labour parliament in Britain dropped the 25-year roll-over now.
>>>Philistines.
>>>
>>Don't think that's true. Cars and 'bikes are still becoming tax-exempt
>>at the 25-year mark.
>
>Sorry, but Jacques is right, Paul. A fixed cut-off point was applied at the
>last budget.
>
John D. Owen
> >Its swings and roundabouts, MG vs Triumph. We Triumph owners had the ability
> >to replace a chassis, you MG owners had the ability to collapse in the
> >middle. The swing axles, tho', was great fun. Oh the times I had terrifying
> >passengers on sharp corners (roundabouts were the best) in my Mk III Spit.
> >They took all the fun away with the 1500 (and the Mk IV as well maybe) by
> >the simple trick of letting the centre on the transverse spring slide as the
> >body shifted to the side. Prior to that the centre of the spring had been
> >attached to the body.
Ah yes, the Spitfire's 'entertaining' handling, always did love to
razz Spitdire owners about that. I always found the Spridgets just
that wee bit quicker and more controllable, and that certainly seemed
to hold true for racing too. Back when I bought my first MG Midget,
John Brittan was the man in British sportscar racing, doing amazing
things with Spridgets on the racetrack, so I made a bee-line for
Barnet and bought a car off him. Scared the bejeezus out of me when
Brittan demonstrated it for me, taking roundabouts along the A1 in
four wheel drifts, with me looking at the exit points out of the side
windows as they approached. By heck those little cars were chuckable!
I 'graduated' to a Lotus Europa after a Midget and a Sprite. Kept that
for four years in an intense love/hate relationship -- loved the way
it looked, went, etc, hated the way it fell apart with monotonous
regularity. Just about everything went wrong apart from the engine (it
was Renault-engined S2, fortunately -- hate to think what the
Lotus-engined S3s were like). Exploding radiators, cracking chassis,
fuel tank leaks, rusting rear suspension arms, front suspension
replacements, and universal joints by the dozen! The final straw came
when the front suspension collapsed (again!) on the way back from my
father-in-law's funeral. I switched to modern saloons, and have
manfully resisted the temptation to buy a sports job as a second car
ever since. There's only so much grief that four wheels can give you.
I don't mind admitting though that I cried quietly to myself when the
mug (er, make that enthusiast) who bought it took the Lotus away.
Never felt the same way about a car again, and that's twenty years
ago, so I probably never will (unless the Lottery comes up bigtime).
JDO
David Betts
>Back when I bought my first MG Midget,
>John Brittan was the man in British sportscar racing, doing amazing
>things with Spridgets on the racetrack, so I made a bee-line for
>Barnet and bought a car off him. Scared the bejeezus out of me when
>Brittan demonstrated it for me, taking roundabouts along the A1 in
>four wheel drifts, with me looking at the exit points out of the side
>windows as they approached. By heck those little cars were chuckable!
Bought my Sprite from him. A series III (equivalent to a series II Midget)
so wind- up windows, half-elliptics and bigger main bearings. BRG with
proper steel wheels rather than the flexible wires that were available for
poseurs. Lovely little car. Was only saying to Ann the other day that of
all the cars we have ever sold that is the one I would most like to have
back.
Dab
bay to work on the engine!!!
Dab
Jacques Steiner
>Can you believe that in the 1970s TR6 was described as "the last of the
>dinosaurs" and "a real rugged monster". At least that is what Graham Robson
>wrote in his Triumph bible.
Well they are pretty heavy for their size (and body on frame construction
in 1968 _does_ sort of qualify a sportscar as a dinosaur), the
semi-trailing arm rear suspension's a bit clunky (though much better than
the swing-axels of the Herald-based cars), and the engine isn't the
greatest of its genre (though not bad for 2.5 liters), but the package on
the whole makes for quite nice rag top, a civilized and reasonably sporty
tourer. I would never argue that the TR6 is a world-class sportscar, but
it's reasonably swift for its type, and with modern parts you really can
wring a lot more power out of that old straight six than the original 140
or so bhp. Mind, I've never driven one that was properly sorted; they
always seem to have one problem or another. Yet another of my projects; I
expect to have one of the cars on the road by 2015. ;-)
>This reminds me a Triumph-expert I met couple of
>years ago. He started to complain how TR3s are so difficult to drive. I even
>think he used the word 'horrible'.
Not the greatest, surely, but quite reasonable for the time. The TR3A is
probably my favorite from TR2-3 series; the TR5 (more stylish and a bit
lighter than the TR6, but the same engine) is probably my favorite from the
TR4-6 series.
>Somehow he couldn't understand why I
>found his remarks so hilarious... Well, I forgave him because he drove the
>finest Stag I've seen. ;o)
Ah, the Stag. Wholly unique; half mad. If you wanted one, there was nothing
else in the world that would please you.
Paul B
<bu...@haidresser.enterprise-plc.com> writes
>The best thing about spitfires is the way you can stand *in* the engine
>bay to work on the engine!!!
>
--
Paul (the artist formerly known as paul B)
James Robson
at the clutch you have to take the gearbox out throgh the car and of course
there is absolutly no way that bell housing is going to fit back through the
bulkhead when you are finished...
Jamie
Paul B wrote in message <0+IKrAAb...@larkhall.co.uk>...
Vegarus
Jacques Steiner kirjoitti viestissä:
> (...snip) the TR5 (more stylish and a bit lighter than the TR6, but the
same engine) is probably my favorite from the TR4-6 series.
And it is quite rare too. If my memory serves me right Triumph built less
than 3000 TR5s. Actually they made 'about' the same number of each of those
famous Roadsters in the 1940s. I've never seen one, but I've never visited
Jersey either ;o) (Those British policemen must earn a lot. I remember
another one driving vintage Jaguar in Oxford... Well, at least there is a
good reason to watch TV ;o)
>Ah, the Stag. Wholly unique; half mad. If you wanted one, there was nothing
>else in the world that would please you.
Heh, heh...funny thing is that I've read with great interest how several
people on this ng have had Triumph sportscar(s), but so far I haven't seen
any *good* reasons why they have given up their cars ;o)
>Jacques Steiner
Jamo
Paul B
<jarmo.h...@kolumbus.fi> writes
>
>
>Heh, heh...funny thing is that I've read with great interest how several
>people on this ng have had Triumph sportscar(s), but so far I haven't seen
>any *good* reasons why they have given up their cars ;o)
>
1. Spitfire 4 Mk 1 212DPW part exchanged for a Mk 3
2. Spitfire 4 mk 3 SHY819G sold to finance my first ever new car
which was:
3. Spitfire mk 4 1300 KOV101L Sold when daughter got to need her own
seat
4. TR4 911LDT Rusted away, sold when it got too
expensiveto keep rebuilding
5. TR3A 1818MK This one was a beaut. I had it several
years, then broke the crankshaft while
racing a Reliant Scimitar. It sat in
my drive awaiting rebuilding for 6
months, then someone came by and made
me an offer I couldn't refuse.
6. TR6 UTR693H Ran it up until 1984, then it was left
in my garage while I worked in Saudi
Arabia. The two-year initial contract
kept getting extended, in the end I sold
it as it was deteriorating rapidly.
I've also owned:
MGA1600 drophead Very pretty, but gutless, rust-prone,
and expensive to maintain.
Austin Healey Sprite Mk 2 Small, rust-prone, didn't like it at all
Elva Courier Lovely car, wish I'd kept it.
Marlin Roadster Hybrid Aluminium/GF kitcar, with Triumph front
suspension, Alfa Romeo 2000 twincam
engine & 5-speed gearbox. Lovely, fast,
charismatic car with terrific
roadholding, 0-60 time 6.5 seconds. I
had this for 4 years, then sold it to a
mate to finance my 'bike.
Sweet memories!
--
Paul
James Robson
Vegarus wrote in message <707agq$j73$1...@news.kolumbus.fi>...
>Heh, heh...funny thing is that I've read with great interest how several
>people on this ng have had Triumph sportscar(s), but so far I haven't seen
>any *good* reasons why they have given up their cars ;o)
>
1st Spitfire went because I got a company car and couldn't justify a 2nd
car. 2nd Spitfire was a second car some years later and went because I got a
second kid instead (I needed at least three seats - and yes I did
investigate the possibilities of fitting a kiddie seat on the parcel shelf
bit between and behind the seats).
Jamie