Coulthard & National Anthem
anderson
The Australian Grand Prix podium scene refired a certain musing that I
haven't thought about for a while - when will the Scots sports people
start insisting that something *decent* is played as their National
Anthem when they are on the podium? Let's face it, God Save The Queen
must be the most lame and uninspiring anthem about - a dodgy waltz
beat doesn't seem much reward for winning a gruelling sporting event.
:-)
The F1 Drivers Championship is an individual competition so you'd
think that Coulthard, representing his country, would have insisted on
something more nationalistic, eg. Scotland the Brave or Flower of
Scotland as they do in international rugby matches. Come to think of
it, are there any other sports events at which the Scots play Flower
of Scotland? Maybe if we started winning more events this issue would
be resolved more quickly :-)
I suppose the problem is that the Scots don't have an "official"
national anthem, but Flower of Scotland seems to be the closest thing
to one at present.
I'm not saying this as a Scot who wants an independent country or a
local parliament etc., but *purely* from the viewpoint that Scotland
is a country with very patriotic sports followers and that we should
have a national anthem of our own played when a Scot wins an
individual sporting event or when a team representing Scotland win.
Maybe we should get in contact with David Coulthard and ask him his
views on this subject - after all it's likely that only successful
sports people like himself can change the current status.
Any comments?
Ritchie Anderson
ande...@qatar.net.qa
Craig Cockburn
Ann an sgriobhainn <332399f9...@news.qatar.net.qa>, sgriobh
anderson <?@?>
>The F1 Drivers Championship is an individual competition so you'd
>think that Coulthard, representing his country, would have insisted on
>something more nationalistic, eg. Scotland the Brave or Flower of
>Scotland as they do in international rugby matches. Come to think of
>it, are there any other sports events at which the Scots play Flower
>of Scotland? Maybe if we started winning more events this issue would
>be resolved more quickly :-)
>
Flower of Scotland is played at Scottish international rugby matches and
I think at football matches and at the Commonwealth games.
--
Craig Cockburn ("coburn"), Du\n E/ideann, Alba. (Edinburgh, Scotland)
http://www.scot.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: cr...@scot.demon.co.uk
Sgri\obh thugam 'sa Gha\idhlig ma 'se do thoil e.
Craig Lister
I totally agree with Mr Ritchie here. However, what is the body
that we
have to write to to ask for a change? And I think Flower of Scotland would
be really great! And then to add a bit, can't he have SCO next to his
name, instead of GBR? Okay, he's racing for Britain, but I'm sure he'd
prefer to have the SCO next to his name too. If not, then why doesn't he
have a bit of Red on his helmet to make it more into a union jack??
: I suppose the problem is that the Scots don't have an "official"
: national anthem, but Flower of Scotland seems to be the closest thing
: to one at present.
: I'm not saying this as a Scot who wants an independent country or a
: local parliament etc., but *purely* from the viewpoint that Scotland
: is a country with very patriotic sports followers and that we should
: have a national anthem of our own played when a Scot wins an
: individual sporting event or when a team representing Scotland win.
: Any comments?
Jim Reid
anderson writes:
> The Australian Grand Prix podium scene refired a certain musing that I
> haven't thought about for a while - when will the Scots sports people
> start insisting that something *decent* is played as their National
> Anthem when they are on the podium? Let's face it, God Save The Queen
> must be the most lame and uninspiring anthem about - a dodgy waltz
> beat doesn't seem much reward for winning a gruelling sporting event.
> :-)
I presume you're talking about that dirge "Flower of Scotland"?
> The F1 Drivers Championship is an individual competition so you'd
> think that Coulthard, representing his country, would have insisted on
> something more nationalistic, eg. Scotland the Brave or Flower of
> Scotland as they do in international rugby matches.
Oh dear. "Scotland the Brave" is crap. It should have died along with
Andy Stewart and the White Heather Club. "Flower of Scotland" is just
awful. Its only saving grace is it can't be played on the bagpipes.
If you read the words for the song, you'll see it's a *lament* for the
loss of the Scottish nation. Hardly appropriate for a national anthem
even if it was a decent tune.
> Maybe we should get in contact with David Coulthard and ask him his
> views on this subject - after all it's likely that only successful
> sports people like himself can change the current status.
Ah yes, the famously patriotic Scot who lives as a tax exile. Just
like Jackie Stewart or Sean Connery.
Hakan Schang
In article <332399f9...@news.qatar.net.qa>, anderson writes:
> The Australian Grand Prix podium scene refired a certain musing that I
> haven't thought about for a while - when will the Scots sports people
> start insisting that something *decent* is played as their National
> Anthem when they are on the podium? Let's face it, God Save The Queen
> must be the most lame and uninspiring anthem about - a dodgy waltz
> beat doesn't seem much reward for winning a gruelling sporting event.
> :-)
>
>
> I'm not saying this as a Scot who wants an independent country or a
> local parliament etc., but *purely* from the viewpoint that Scotland
> is a country with very patriotic sports followers and that we should
> have a national anthem of our own played when a Scot wins an
> individual sporting event or when a team representing Scotland win.
>
> Maybe we should get in contact with David Coulthard and ask him his
> views on this subject - after all it's likely that only successful
> sports people like himself can change the current status.
>
> Any comments?
Since when is Scotland an independent country??? That would be the only
reason for them to play anything other than "God save the Queen".
I'm very surpriced at this special treatment of the Brittish "substates"
(sorry, don't know any good word for them). In football for instance,
why do England, Scotland, Wales have separate national teams?? That
would be kind of equal to USA having about 50 (sorry, don't know exactly
the right number of states) separate teams, one for each state...
No, the UK is one independent state consisting of a number of provinces,
so play the "God save the Queen" for any winner from the UK!
FORZA!
/HS
--
________________________ _
___ Hakan Schang | _ _
|_o_| sch...@ts.umu.se |-| |_| |': |': '_| |': |
__[]=(_)=[]____http://www.ts.umu.se/~schang____ _|_ |_, | | |_| | | ____
Alan K Duff
Speaking as a Scot, God save the Queen is incredibly dull, boring, and
anti-Scottish. Flower of Scotland is the obvious replacement.
James V. Silverton
Alan K Duff (fp...@dial.pipex.com) wrote:
: Speaking as a Scot, God save the Queen is incredibly dull, boring, and
: anti-Scottish. Flower of Scotland is the obvious replacement.
I have mentioned this before but it might interest some posters that both
Beethoven and Haydn admired the tune of "God save the King" and the
Austrian national anthem was written by Haydn because it was felt that
Austria needed a comparable song. As "My country 'tis of thee", it nearly
became the US anthem!
There were some remarkably anti-scottish lyrics in the original version
(something about Marshal Wade taming rebellious Scots). These of course
referred to the Highland supporters of Charles Edward and were dropped in
the nineteenth century once the English had got over their well deserved
fright!
The anti-catholic words ("frustrate their popish tricks") were modified by order
of George V.
I must admit that I am glad that it now is a matter of indifference personally
which anthem Scotland might choose but I think that "Flower of Scotland" is
hopelessly banal in comparison with "Scots wha hae...." or "Scotland the
Brave".
--
-- James V. Silverton j...@helix.nih.gov
301-496-1515 (OFFICE) 301-402-3404 (FAX)
NHLBI/LBC, 10/7N-307, 10 CENTER DR MSC 1676, BETHESDA MD 20892-1676
Craig Cockburn
Ann an sgriobhainn <33244D...@dial.pipex.com>, sgriobh Alan K Duff
<fp...@dial.pipex.com>
>Speaking as a Scot, God save the Queen is incredibly dull, boring, and
>anti-Scottish. Flower of Scotland is the obvious replacement.
I'd prefer Freedom come all ye
Dillon Pyron
Alan K Duff wrote:
>
> Speaking as a Scot, God save the Queen is incredibly dull, boring, and
> anti-Scottish. Flower of Scotland is the obvious replacement.
There has been a small move to make "My Country, 'Tis of Thee" the
national anthem of the US. Talk about a boring melody :-)
--
dillon pyron
dillon...@amd.com
PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031
And next time, use a bigger needle
Graeme Weston-Lewis
anderson wrote:
>
> The Australian Grand Prix podium scene refired a certain musing that I
> haven't thought about for a while - when will the Scots sports people
> start insisting that something *decent* is played as their National
> Anthem when they are on the podium? Let's face it, God Save The Queen
> must be the most lame and uninspiring anthem about
Not to mention the verse that says "crush the rebelious Scots" !!!!
<"Flower of Scotland" suggestion snipped out of respect for my Scottish
dignity>
>
> Any comments?
Wot about "Scotland the Brave" - I particularly liked the 5 minute
version they played at the Commonwealth games a few years back :)
--
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Graeme Weston-Lewis Symbios Logic |
| e-mail: graeme.we...@symbios.com |
| snail mail: 2001 Danfield Court, Fort Collins, CO 80525 |
| voice: (970) 226 9629 Fax: (970) 226 9686 |
| "If its got more than 2 wheels - it ain't fast enough" |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
Ian Stewart
On 10 Mar 1997 09:49:05 GMT, vl...@venus.ctech.ac.za (Craig Lister)
wrote:
>I totally agree with Mr Ritchie here. ..................... but I'm sure he'd prefer
> to have the SCO next to his name too. If not, then why doesn't he
>have a bit of Red on his helmet to make it more into a union jack??
>
I wonder if it's only a matter of time, and a few more wins, before he
adopts the tartan helmet band as used by his predecessors,
the late Jim Clark and Jackie Stewart.
Steve Howie
In soc.culture.scottish Craig Lister <vl...@venus.ctech.ac.za> wrote:
:I totally agree with Mr Ritchie here. However, what is the body
:that we
:have to write to to ask for a change? And I think Flower of Scotland would
:be really great! And then to add a bit, can't he have SCO next to his
:prefer to have the SCO next to his name too. If not, then why doesn't he
:have a bit of Red on his helmet to make it more into a union jack??
Good point. In the recent INDY Car race in Miami, the Scottish racer with
the Italian name (forget), was presented as coming from Scotland by the
ABC commentary team. Quite astounding. So there is hope yet :)
Scotty
=======================================================
Steve Howie email: sho...@uoguelph.ca
Netnews and Listserv Admin fax: (519) 763-6143
University of Guelph phone: (519) 824-4120 x2556
If it's not Scottish its CRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPP
=======================================================
Anselm Lingnau
In article <33244D...@dial.pipex.com>,
Alan K Duff <ak....@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
> Speaking as a Scot, God save the Queen is incredibly dull, boring, and
> anti-Scottish. Flower of Scotland is the obvious replacement.
Sheesh. Is this the Great Flower of Scotland Debate all over again?
There are so many *good* songs around (say, Freedom Come All Ye, or, if
you're keen on the flora, White Rose of Scotland) that there's no reason
one should go for a funereal piece whose most important point-in-favour
is that the rugby supporters can sort-of remember the *tune* even in an
advanced state of intoxication. As for the *words*, well, there you are.
Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau ......................... lin...@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de
Their tanks will rust. Our songs will last. --- Mikis Theodorakis
Bob Boakes
Hakan Schang wrote:
>
> No, the UK is one independent state consisting of a number of provinces,
> so play the "God save the Queen" for any winner from the UK!
>
flamethrower, not by me I hasten to add but there are 5 million people
around me rushing to the nearest flame thrower shop.
On this topic Coulthard said " I didn't know whether to sing "Flower of
Scotland" or "Scotland the Brave"
but then I realised I was with a largely English team so I thought I'd
better not."
Strange you'd think he'd know the team wouldn't mind what he sang.
Micheil Rob Mac Phàdruig
Anselm Lingnau <lin...@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de> wrote:
>In article <33244D...@dial.pipex.com>,
>Alan K Duff <ak....@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>> Speaking as a Scot, God save the Queen is incredibly dull, boring, and
>> anti-Scottish. Flower of Scotland is the obvious replacement.
>Sheesh. Is this the Great Flower of Scotland Debate all over again?
>There are so many *good* songs around (say, Freedom Come All Ye, or, if
>you're keen on the flora, White Rose of Scotland) that there's no reason
>one should go for a funereal piece whose most important point-in-favour
>is that the rugby supporters can sort-of remember the *tune* even in an
>advanced state of intoxication. As for the *words*, well, there you are.
>Anselm
Hear, hear! It's a dreary song at best - we have much better in our
repertoire.
Měcheil Rob MacPhŕdruig
Drůidh:duine-uasal
Jim Reid
era...@eraj.ericsson.se (Hakan Schang) writes:
> No, the UK is one independent state consisting of a number of provinces,
> so play the "God save the Queen" for any winner from the UK!
You clearly don't know what you are talking about. The only province
in the UK is Northern Ireland. The UK consists of that province and
three *nations*: Scotland, Wales and England. For Scots in particular,
the UK national anthem is highly offensive and objectionable. It has a
verse which wants "rebellious Scots" crushed and God to save the
monarch. The tune dates from ~250 years ago, when the Scots last
fought to install a Scottish king on the throne.
It's a bit like the Swedish national anthem saying "Long live Sweden,
but let's wipe out anyone who works for Ericsson".
Jim Reid
Alan K Duff <fp...@dial.pipex.com> writes:
> Speaking as a Scot, God save the Queen is incredibly dull, boring, and
> anti-Scottish. Flower of Scotland is the obvious replacement.
Come off it! Study the words. Listen to the tune. It's a *lament* for
the loss of Scottish independence. Why people think this would be a
good choice for a national anthem - it's an utterly crap tune too - is
beyond me.
Hakan Schang
In article <332530...@gcal.ac.uk>, Bob Boakes <R.Bo...@gcal.ac.uk> writes:
> Hakan Schang wrote:
> >
> > No, the UK is one independent state consisting of a number of provinces,
> > so play the "God save the Queen" for any winner from the UK!
> >
> flamethrower, not by me I hasten to add but there are 5 million people
> around me rushing to the nearest flame thrower shop.
Yup, I know the risks. But I just can't understand the special treatment of
the UK provinces, and there are many others with me on that, I'm sure.
To quote another contributor to this ng;
"Go ahead and flame me, my pants are Nomex"
Lucy Laws
In article <5g3g1n$5...@newstoo.ericsson.se>, era...@eraj.ericsson.se says...
>
>In article <332530...@gcal.ac.uk>, Bob Boakes <R.Bo...@gcal.ac.uk>
writes:
>> Hakan Schang wrote:
>> >
>> > No, the UK is one independent state consisting of a number of provinces,
>> > so play the "God save the Queen" for any winner from the UK!
>> >
>> This guy is obviously setting out to be flamed, with a real
>> flamethrower, not by me I hasten to add but there are 5 million people
>> around me rushing to the nearest flame thrower shop.
>
>Yup, I know the risks. But I just can't understand the special treatment of
>the UK provinces, and there are many others with me on that, I'm sure.
>
>To quote another contributor to this ng;
>
> "Go ahead and flame me, my pants are Nomex"
>
I'm not going to flame you for not understanding the complexities of
British/UKish history! But if you are really interested in discussing this
topic can I suggest you take it to uk.misc or a similar ng?
I don't think most users of this ng are all that bothered about what
the precise details of England/Ireland/Scotland/Wales and their relative
national anthems are!
Lucy
__________________________________________________
Opinions expressed are my own and not my employers
anderson
On 10 Mar 1997 15:27:36 +0100, Jim Reid <j...@pc37.mpn.cp.philips.com>
wrote:
>anderson writes:
>
>I presume you're talking about that dirge "Flower of Scotland"?
>
>Oh dear. "Scotland the Brave" is crap. It should have died along with
>Andy Stewart and the White Heather Club. "Flower of Scotland" is just
>awful. Its only saving grace is it can't be played on the bagpipes.
>If you read the words for the song, you'll see it's a *lament* for the
>loss of the Scottish nation. Hardly appropriate for a national anthem
>even if it was a decent tune.
I personally agree with you that Flower of Scotland and Scotland the
Brave are *not* good songs and I would be against using either as a
national anthem - I merely cited them as examples of what is being
used at present in the absence of something official.
>Ah yes, the famously patriotic Scot who lives as a tax exile. Just
>like Jackie Stewart or Sean Connery.
So the national anthem of Monaco should be played when Coulthard (and
most of the other G.P. drivers for that matter) win a race?
In any case, I think the point of having a national anthem is so that
the population of a country can come together, celebrate and feel good
with a sense of pride about their country's culture and history, even
if it's only for a few minutes - some old-fashioned good, clean,
honest fun.
I have no idea what the process of getting an official national anthem
involves - I'd hope a "Scotovision" contest isn't the answer <g>
Ritchie
anderson
On 10 Mar 1997 17:11:00 GMT, era...@eraj.ericsson.se (Hakan Schang)
wrote:
>Since when is Scotland an independent country??? That would be the only
>reason for them to play anything other than "God save the Queen".
>
>I'm very surpriced at this special treatment of the Brittish "substates"
>(sorry, don't know any good word for them). In football for instance,
>why do England, Scotland, Wales have separate national teams?? That
>would be kind of equal to USA having about 50 (sorry, don't know exactly
>the right number of states) separate teams, one for each state...
>
>No, the UK is one independent state consisting of a number of provinces,
An all too common misconception - Scotland is a country which formed a
union with England and Wales in 1707 and subsequently Northern Ireland
to become the current day United Kingdom - Scotland still retains it's
own legal and educational systems which are distinct from the rest of
the UK's. The components of the union did not cease being countries
after it was formed, hence the national teams.
>so play the "God save the Queen" for any winner from the UK!
For the same reason that the Swedes would sing the European Union's
anthem if one existed?
Ritchie
Hakan Schang
In article <x7k9neb...@pc37.mpn.cp.philips.com>, Jim Reid <j...@pc37.mpn.cp.philips.com> writes:
> era...@eraj.ericsson.se (Hakan Schang) writes:
>
> > No, the UK is one independent state consisting of a number of provinces,
>
> in the UK is Northern Ireland. The UK consists of that province and
> three *nations*: Scotland, Wales and England. For Scots in particular,
> the UK national anthem is highly offensive and objectionable. It has a
> verse which wants "rebellious Scots" crushed and God to save the
> monarch. The tune dates from ~250 years ago, when the Scots last
> fought to install a Scottish king on the throne.
Ok, so I might be wrong on the actuall term for it, but Scotland,
Wales and England are not independent nations are they??
If they aren't independent, why should they then have separate
national anthems?
> It's a bit like the Swedish national anthem saying "Long live Sweden,
> but let's wipe out anyone who works for Ericsson".
Oohh, you're picking on my employer are you??? ;-) No seriously, what do you mean?
That it's like if the Swedish national anthem _would_ have said "Long live Sweden,
but let's wipe out anyone who works for Ericsson"??
Please explain!
Hakan Schang
In article <5g3j4c$n...@romeo.logica.co.uk>, La...@logica.com (Lucy Laws) writes:
>
> I'm not going to flame you for not understanding the complexities of
> British/UKish history!
Thanks! ;-) It's a bit complex, isn't it?
> But if you are really interested in discussing this
> topic can I suggest you take it to uk.misc or a similar ng?
Ok, I understand you point. Not that I'm gonna continue it much further here in
rasf1, but I wouldn't stand a chance defending my opinions on this in a ng
with only Brittish readers...
> I don't think most users of this ng are all that bothered about what
> the precise details of England/Ireland/Scotland/Wales and their relative
> national anthems are!
Agreed, I'm not interested in it either. I was interested in why
Scotland, England, Wales sometimes are being treated as independent
countries.
N.I. Clark
>
> No, the UK is one independent state consisting of a number of provinces,
> so play the "God save the Queen" for any winner from the UK!
>
>
> /HS
>
NO NO NO NO. ignoramous The U.K. is the one independant state consisting
of different COUNTRIES. Each with thier own national flags and identities,
"god save the queen " is the british national anthem and should be used
when britain ( british lions for example) win something why should
Scotland, Wales or England play the british anthem when britain isn't
playing?
Niall
Michael Wade
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91-941213.970311140856.8647C-
100...@aidan.ncl.ac.uk>, "N.I. Clark" <N.I....@ncl.ac.uk> writes
>>
>>
>NO NO NO NO. ignoramous The U.K. is the one independant state consisting
>of different COUNTRIES. Each with thier own national flags and identities,
>"god save the queen " is the british national anthem and should be used
>when britain ( british lions for example) win something why should
>Scotland, Wales or England play the british anthem when britain isn't
>playing?
>
>Niall
An example from another sport arose recently - football.
The English and Scottish leagues are separate and were both founded in
the 19th century. Aside from the fact that anyone with a passing
acquaintance of the UK realises they are separate countries, the fact
that they have always been separate leagues gives rise to the fact that
each fields its own national side.
Recently there was speculation that Glasgow Celtic wished to join the
English league. This is unlikley to happen. If it did, according to a
debate on BBC Radio, football's world governing body FIFA would step in
and say "Well, since you are now running a league which incorporates
English and Scottish clubs, you must now field a single British side."
What is curious however is that three Welsh clubs already play in the
English League (and one English club in the Scottish league). Although
there is also a league of Wales, made up of semi-professinal and amateur
sides, logically one would expect FIFA to insist on a combined Anglo-
Welsh side. Why do they not?
I also note that Bobby Robson, sometime manager of England, was of the
opinion that no manager in his right mind would ever take charge of a
combined British side. "You'ld get dog's abuse" said Sir Bobby.
--
Michael Wade
Hakan Schang
In article <33255543...@news.qatar.net.qa>, anderson writes:
-snip-
>
> An all too common misconception - Scotland is a country which formed a
> union with England and Wales in 1707 and subsequently Northern Ireland
> to become the current day United Kingdom - Scotland still retains it's
> own legal and educational systems which are distinct from the rest of
> the UK's. The components of the union did not cease being countries
> after it was formed, hence the national teams.
>
>
> anthem if one existed?
>
> Ritchie
Ok, maybe I'm starting to get it.
BTW, doesn't a EU anthem exist? I think I recollect that Beethoven's
symphony no.9 is regarded as an official EU anthem. Am I wrong?
Natalie Mayer
Hakan Schang wrote:
> Ok, so I might be wrong on the actuall term for it, but Scotland,
> Wales and England are not independent nations are they??
A nation is a unified group of people, whereas a state is a political
unit. Or something like that. (I was only half awake in Geog. that
day...)
NM
--
Natalie Mayer: 18 and still not quite sane - nma...@rohan.sdsu.edu
Delusion has moved. Point your browser to
http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/home/nmayer/
Save money on your music, don't use instruments.
Graham P. McDermott
In article <Rjv+7LAp...@mwade.demon.co.uk<,
Michael Wade <cel...@mwade.demon.co.uk< wrote:
<In article <Pine.SOL.3.91-941213.970311140856.8647C-
<100...@aidan.ncl.ac.uk>, "N.I. Clark" <N.I....@ncl.ac.uk> writes
<>>
<>>
<>NO NO NO NO. ignoramous The U.K. is the one independant state consisting
<>of different COUNTRIES. Each with thier own national flags and identities,
<>"god save the queen " is the british national anthem and should be used
<>when britain ( british lions for example) win something why should
<>Scotland, Wales or England play the british anthem when britain isn't
<>playing?
<>
<>Niall
<
<An example from another sport arose recently - football.
<
<The English and Scottish leagues are separate and were both founded in
<the 19th century. Aside from the fact that anyone with a passing
<acquaintance of the UK realises they are separate countries, the fact
<that they have always been separate leagues gives rise to the fact that
<each fields its own national side.
<
<Recently there was speculation that Glasgow Celtic wished to join the
<English league. This is unlikley to happen. If it did, according to a
<debate on BBC Radio, football's world governing body FIFA would step in
<and say "Well, since you are now running a league which incorporates
<English and Scottish clubs, you must now field a single British side."
Isn't there already a side that plays in Scotland that is from England?
I think its Berwick Rangers?
<What is curious however is that three Welsh clubs already play in the
<English League (and one English club in the Scottish league). Although
<there is also a league of Wales, made up of semi-professinal and amateur
<sides, logically one would expect FIFA to insist on a combined Anglo-
<Welsh side. Why do they not?
<
There is all sorts of other peculiarities. I mean is there a league in
some of the island states or the smaller countries? (The Faeroes, or that
little country, whose name escapes me, but they scored in 10 or 11 seconds
against Ingerrland)
GMcD.
--
Graham McDermott gm...@lucent.com +44-1666-832497
Lucent Technologies gm...@bell-labs.com
The views expressed here do not necessarily match those of Lucent Technologies
Huw Morris
Michael Wade wrote:
> The English and Scottish leagues are separate and were both founded in
> the 19th century. Aside from the fact that anyone with a passing
> acquaintance of the UK realises they are separate countries, the fact
> that they have always been separate leagues gives rise to the fact that
> each fields its own national side.
I'm British (half English, half Welsh) and I would dispute your description
of England and Scotland as seperate _countries_. Since the 1701 union
the country has been the United Kingdom. England, Scotland, Wales and
Northern Ireland are the four provinces of the United Kingdom.
The Basque area of Spain is not a "country", neither were Croatia, Serbia,
Slovenia, Macedonia and Montenegro before the breakup of Yugoslavia. (OK
so Serbia and Montenegro still aren't seperate countries.)
The fact that there are seperate leagues is a bit of a red herring. It's
the fact that there are seperate FA's which that the reason England
and Scotland field seperate teams.
> Recently there was speculation that Glasgow Celtic wished to join the
> English league. This is unlikley to happen. If it did, according to a
> debate on BBC Radio, football's world governing body FIFA would step in
> and say "Well, since you are now running a league which incorporates
> English and Scottish clubs, you must now field a single British side."
I wouldn't be too quick to rule it out. Within 5 years, it's my opinion
that there will either be a European League or a British League. The latter
option _might_ cause the formation of a British FA, but not necessarily.
The Benelux countries have also looked at the idea of merging their leagues
to improve the standard.
If there was a European League, would Europe have to have field one
unified team? I doubt it.
> What is curious however is that three Welsh clubs already play in the
> English League (and one English club in the Scottish league). Although
> there is also a league of Wales, made up of semi-professinal and amateur
> sides, logically one would expect FIFA to insist on a combined Anglo-
> Welsh side. Why do they not?
The reason the Welsh FA set up the League of Wales, and the reason they
forced all semi-professional clubs in Wales below Conference level to join,
was the prospect of losing their seperate national identity. I think it
would have been very difficult to force the professional clubs to move,
as they would surely sue the Welsh FA for having gone bust! I think Merthyr
were allowed to stay in the English pyramid because they were within
one level of professional status - and even then they were given a deadline
(5 years?) to reach division three.
Remember that it's the Champions of the League of Wales that get to
compete in the UEFA Cup/Champions Cup (whichever it is in any particular
year). The only reason Cardiff City et al are allowed to compete in the
FA Cup is because the Welsh FA have a reciprocal arrangement with the FA,
whereby some English teams take part in the Welsh Cup.
> I also note that Bobby Robson, sometime manager of England, was of the
> opinion that no manager in his right mind would ever take charge of a
> combined British side. "You'ld get dog's abuse" said Sir Bobby.
He's right there. The best manager would be Scot, having to pick 11
Englishmen. Look at the politics of the British Lions.
Huw
--
Remember, as they say in Korea: h...@custard.bnsc.rl.ac.uk
"A dog is not just for Christmas.
With a bit of luck you'll have WBA web page:
some left over for Boxing Day too." http://www.gold.net/users/cp78
Steve Howie
:> Maybe we should get in contact with David Coulthard and ask him his
:> views on this subject - after all it's likely that only successful
:> sports people like himself can change the current status.
:Ah yes, the famously patriotic Scot who lives as a tax exile. Just
:like Jackie Stewart or Sean Connery.
There's a difference between being "famously patriotic" and being taxed at
90-95% in the UK by those bloodsuckers in Westminster :)
Christine Johnston
Jim Reid <j...@pc37.mpn.cp.philips.com> wrote:
> You clearly don't know what you are talking about. The only province
> in the UK is Northern Ireland. The UK consists of that province and
> three *nations*: Scotland, Wales and England. For Scots in particular,
> the UK national anthem is highly offensive and objectionable. It has a
> verse which wants "rebellious Scots" crushed and God to save the
> monarch. The tune dates from ~250 years ago, when the Scots last
> fought to install a Scottish king on the throne.
>
> It's a bit like the Swedish national anthem saying "Long live Sweden,
> but let's wipe out anyone who works for Ericsson".
And its not as if the English didn't rip off 'Grand Dieu sauvez le Roi'
from the French anyway. Written for Louis XIV who sensibly couldn't
stand it. Scotland the Brave at least clips along at a good pace.
Michael Wade
In article <5g3vbs$15...@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>, Huw Morris
<h...@custard.bnsc.rl.ac.uk> writes
>
>I'm British (half English, half Welsh) and I would dispute your description
>of England and Scotland as seperate _countries_.
I'm posting from soc.culture.scottish and I know better.
>
>The fact that there are seperate leagues is a bit of a red herring. It's
>the fact that there are seperate FA's which that the reason England
>and Scotland field seperate teams.
You're right. You've answered my question.
>
>> Recently there was speculation that Glasgow Celtic wished to join the
>> English league. This is unlikley to happen. If it did, according to a
>> debate on BBC Radio, football's world governing body FIFA would step in
>> and say "Well, since you are now running a league which incorporates
>> English and Scottish clubs, you must now field a single British side."
>
>I wouldn't be too quick to rule it out. Within 5 years, it's my opinion
>that there will either be a European League
Probably.
>or a British League. The latter
>option _might_ cause the formation of a British FA,
I doubt it. These are the two oldest FAs in the world and there's a lot
of traditionalists about. More importantly, Celtic and Rangers make a
lot of money out of their superiority in Scotland. They achieve immense
incomes from season ticket sales, and then top up their revenues by
guaranteed returns from European qualification. They might not be so
fortunate in league competiton with English clubs, and that 'might' will
make them think very hard before accepting a British league.
>
>> I also note that Bobby Robson, sometime manager of England, was of the
>> opinion that no manager in his right mind would ever take charge of a
>> combined British side. "You'ld get dog's abuse" said Sir Bobby.
>
>He's right there. The best manager would be Scot, having to pick 11
>Englishmen. Look at the politics of the British Lions.
>
I nominate Jim Duffy, currently manager of Hibs.
You forgot Giggs, by the way. He'd get a game. And Darren Jackson.
--
Mike
R. Boakes
In article <m6ZQ$eAE5H...@scot.demon.co.uk>, Craig says...
>>anti-Scottish. Flower of Scotland is the obvious replacement.
>
>--
Bob (:-
Paul Crankshaw
James V. Silverton <j...@helix.nih.gov> wrote:
>
> I have mentioned this before but it might interest some posters that both
> Beethoven and Haydn admired the tune of "God save the King" and the
> Austrian national anthem was written by Haydn because it was felt that
> Austria needed a comparable song. As "My country 'tis of thee", it nearly
> became the US anthem!
>
Nothing to do with David Coulthard - but it was a great victory.
Why is the Liechtenstein's National Anthem sung to the tune of "God Save
the Queen" ?
PC
Robin Massart
Michael Wade wrote:
>
> >...Within 5 years, it's my opinion
> >that there will either be a European League
>
> Probably.
>
> >or a British League. The latter
> >option _might_ cause the formation of a British FA,
>
> I doubt it. These are the two oldest FAs in the world and there's a lot
> of traditionalists about. More importantly, Celtic and Rangers make a
> lot of money out of their superiority in Scotland. They achieve immense
> incomes from season ticket sales, and then top up their revenues by
> guaranteed returns from European qualification. They might not be so
> fortunate in league competiton with English clubs, and that 'might' will
> make them think very hard before accepting a British league.
Whilst Celtic and Rangers may make a fair bit of money out of being top
of the scotish league each year, I don't think it is a huge amount. The
problem these two clubs is that they have no competition in Scotland and
so when they have to compete in Europe they simply don't have a chance.
When's the last time a scotish team got past the group stages in the
champions league? I think both clubs would much rather compete in the
english league, to face some good competition. This way they could
build a descent team and maybe get somewhere in Europe. BTW Ajax were
also playing with this idea a couple of years ago but gave up.
Robin
Kulvinder Singh Matharu
On 11 Mar 1997 03:30:26 GMT, Steve Howie
<sho...@ccshst01.cs.uoguelph.ca> wrote:
>In soc.culture.scottish Craig Lister <vl...@venus.ctech.ac.za> wrote:
[snip]
>
>Good point. In the recent INDY Car race in Miami, the Scottish racer with
>the Italian name (forget), was presented as coming from Scotland by the
>ABC commentary team. Quite astounding. So there is hope yet :)
[snip]
I think his name is Dario Franchitti. His helmet design seemed
identical to Coulthard's (blue helmet with the with cross).
--
Kulvinder Singh Matharu
E-mail : KSMa...@iee.org
Jack Campin
Alan K Duff <fp...@dial.pipex.com> writes:
> Speaking as a Scot, God save the Queen is incredibly dull, boring,
> and anti-Scottish. Flower of Scotland is the obvious replacement.
...being incredibly dull, boring, and anti-English?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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T/L, 2 Haddington Place, Edinburgh EH7 4AE, Scotland (+44) 131 556 5272
--------------------- Save Scunthorpe from Censorship ---------------------
Donald Kerr
>I'm British (half English, half Welsh) and I would dispute your description
>of England and Scotland as seperate _countries_.
You would probably say that Scotland was part of England. I am
Scottish and I can tell you that it IS a different country.
To keep on topic, the country with the best drivers! :)
--
Bye for now,
Donald (Kerr), Glasgow, Scotland.
don...@zetnet.co.uk .oOo. http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/kerr/
Web Page Design & Administration .oOo. Custom Applications Written
Paul S Winalski
anderson wrote:
>
> The Australian Grand Prix podium scene refired a certain musing that I
> haven't thought about for a while - when will the Scots sports people
> start insisting that something *decent* is played as their National
> Anthem when they are on the podium? Let's face it, God Save The Queen
> must be the most lame and uninspiring anthem about - a dodgy waltz
> beat doesn't seem much reward for winning a gruelling sporting event.
> :-)
The podium procedure is laid out in excruciating detail in
Appendix III to the F1 Sporting Regulations. The anthems that
are played are the national anthems of the ASNs in which the
winning driver and constructor are registered. In the case
of Coulthard and McLaren, that's the UK, whose ASN is the
RAC. As far as the FIA is concerned, Scotland is a part of
the UK and thus the UK national anthem, God Save the Queen,
must be played. If the Scots don't like this, they'll have
to petition the FIA for separate representation.
--PSW
Nick Smart
Well the FIA won't even let Colin McRae have the Scottish flag on the
side of the car, but they let DC get away with it. I think DC should
whistle through the English national anthem, that would be better,
though he used to say in interviews he was British and not a "hairy
arsed highlander". As for being patriotic you don't have to still live
there. As long as you acknowledge it as home.
Nick
Thomas Gmuer
Hakan Schang <era...@eraj.ericsson.se> wrote:
> Agreed, I'm not interested in it either. I was interested in why
> Scotland, England, Wales sometimes are being treated as independent
> countries.
In the case of Football (where you refered to earlier in this thread) it
has two major reasons. Football was invented on the Isle. Even if there
is a italian village and China proclaiming they have, but Football as we
know it today is from the United Kingdom. Late in the last century each
(former independent province) started it's own Football League and is
running a seperate Championship ever since. This is the reason why the
FIFA still allows them to participate because they are independent (at
least in Football).
Enough off topic talking (and certainly my first and last cross-posting
to "soc.culture.scottish")
Thomas
--
Disclaimer: The Football I am speaking of is in some countrys also known
as Soccer.
Lynn L McIntyre
Steve Howie (sho...@ccshst01.cs.uoguelph.ca) wrote:
: Good point. In the recent INDY Car race in Miami, the Scottish racer with
: the Italian name (forget), was presented as coming from Scotland by the
: ABC commentary team. Quite astounding. So there is hope yet :)
Ah, that would be Dario McFranchitti. Do his parents run a fish and chip
shop in Largs by any chance?!?!!?
Lynn McIntyre
Christopher Bruce
Huw Morris wrote:
>
> Michael Wade wrote:
>
> I'm British (half English, half Welsh) and I would dispute your description
> the country has been the United Kingdom. England, Scotland, Wales and
> Northern Ireland are the four provinces of the United Kingdom.
Scotland was a Kingdom in its own right for 700 years. A clearly
recognisable "Country".
It is still a country today despite the union!
Coultard is a Scot and it would be ok to wave the cross of St.Andrew but
he races under the auspices of Great Britain and therefore it is right
an proper that the "National anthem", and here in lies part of the
problem.
"God save the Queen/King" is the English Nation's anthem which has been
adopted by the other countries!
A Nation is, I suppose, both a country and a collection of countries,
so it works anyway.
Well done David Coultard!
Chris
--
CCCc H H RRRRr II sSSSSs mailto:br...@lts.sel.alcatel.de
cC H___H R r II S____ or Christop...@compuserve.com
cC H H RRRR II s I still miss my wife,
CCCc H H R R II sSSSS but my aim is getting better!
Kevin McLaughlin
Jack Campin (ja...@purr.demon.co.uk) wrote:
:
: > Speaking as a Scot, God save the Queen is incredibly dull, boring,
: > and anti-Scottish. Flower of Scotland is the obvious replacement.
:
: ...being incredibly dull, boring, and anti-English?
so whats the problem then?
Steven Glenister
Anselm Lingnau <lin...@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de> writes:
>In article <33244D...@dial.pipex.com>,
>Alan K Duff <ak....@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>> Speaking as a Scot, God save the Queen is incredibly dull, boring, and
>> anti-Scottish. Flower of Scotland is the obvious replacement.
>Sheesh. Is this the Great Flower of Scotland Debate all over again?
>There are so many *good* songs around (say, Freedom Come All Ye, or, if
How about Park Life by blur. It's catchy, contemporary and everyone
can sing along and do a funny walk!
Actually I don't disagree that GSTQ is dead boring, but what on earth
makes someone say "let's change it for Flower of Scotland" ? Do you
really think that's EVERY going to happen ? Wait until next season
when you may well have devolution, then you can raise the Scottish
flag and play what ever you want
Huw Morris
Christopher Bruce wrote:
> "God save the Queen/King" is the English Nation's anthem which has been
> adopted by the other countries!
I think it's the other way round - the England football team should not
be using GSTQ, as it's the British anthem, not the English one. I'd much
rather have Land of Hope and Glory, or Jerusalem.
> A Nation is, I suppose, both a country and a collection of countries,
> so it works anyway.
Which is the source of the confusion.
Antti Kuosmanen
anderson wrote:
: On 10 Mar 1997 17:11:00 GMT, era...@eraj.ericsson.se (Hakan Schang)
: wrote:
: >I'm very surpriced at this special treatment of the Brittish "substates"
: >(sorry, don't know any good word for them). In football for instance,
: >why do England, Scotland, Wales have separate national teams?? That
: >would be kind of equal to USA having about 50 (sorry, don't know exactly
: >the right number of states) separate teams, one for each state...
: >
: >No, the UK is one independent state consisting of a number of provinces,
:
: An all too common misconception - Scotland is a country which formed a
: union with England and Wales in 1707 and subsequently Northern Ireland
: to become the current day United Kingdom - Scotland still retains it's
: own legal and educational systems which are distinct from the rest of
: the UK's. The components of the union did not cease being countries
: after it was formed, hence the national teams.
I'm getting sick of the Brits who think their country is the only one made
out of bits and pieces. If all the European countries with 'states'
equivalent to the British ones(Lapland, Bayern.. etc) would have their
own (say) football teams, there'd be about 200 teams from Europe entering
the World Cup.
Notice how the sports that aren't of British origin only have Great Britain
entering and now England, Wales, etc.
: Ritchie
Antti Kuosmanen
Jim Reid
Steve Howie <sho...@ccshst01.cs.uoguelph.ca> writes:
> :Ah yes, the famously patriotic Scot who lives as a tax exile. Just
> :like Jackie Stewart or Sean Connery.
>
> There's a difference between being "famously patriotic" and being taxed at
> 90-95% in the UK by those bloodsuckers in Westminster :)
The top rate of income tax in the UK is 40%. For the above people,
they'd pay nothing like that in tax if they lived in the UK because
they can afford to hire accountants and tax avoidance experts. So, why
do these patriots choose not to live in their homeland or even have a
house there?
N.I. Clark
On 11 Mar 1997, Jim Reid wrote:
> Alan K Duff <fp...@dial.pipex.com> writes:
>
> > Speaking as a Scot, God save the Queen is incredibly dull, boring, and
> > anti-Scottish. Flower of Scotland is the obvious replacement.
>
> Come off it! Study the words. Listen to the tune. It's a *lament* for
> the loss of Scottish independence. Why people think this would be a
> good choice for a national anthem - it's an utterly crap tune too - is
> beyond me.
>
"those days are past now and in the past they must remain"
I'd say oh flower of Scotland is far more about stopping
living in the past whilst making sure we don't forget about it.
damned good idea! As for the tune I like it, but music is about personal
taste and you can't plaese all of the people all of the time.
Niall
N.I. Clark
On 11 Mar 1997, Hakan Schang wrote:
> Ok, so I might be wrong on the actuall term for it, but Scotland,
> Wales and England are not independent nations are they??
> If they aren't independent, why should they then have separate
> national anthems?
>
In that case all members of the E.U. are no longer independent nations
There is an E.U. parliment, legal system and courts and a flag we can all
wrap ourselves in. The same reasoning behind all of the E.U. countries
retaining their national anthems/flags/identities can be used to explain
Scotland and Englands retention of these as well.By the way Scotland has
a seperate (dare i say independant) legal system, church, education system
(which is organised entirely differently to englands) and for a bonus
OUR water is still a publicly owned whereas Englands is privately owned,
because Westminster couldn't do it:)
Niall
N.I. Clark
On 11 Mar 1997, Huw Morris wrote:
>
> I'm British (half English, half Welsh) and I would dispute your description
> of England and Scotland as seperate _countries_. Since the 1701 union
> the country has been the United Kingdom. England, Scotland, Wales and
> Northern Ireland are the four provinces of the United Kingdom.
er don't you mean the union of 1707?
>The Basque area of Spain is not a "country", neither were Croatia, Serbia,
> Slovenia, Macedonia and Montenegro before the breakup of Yugoslavia. (OK
> so Serbia and Montenegro still aren't seperate countries.)
That's because the basque area of spain was kinda taken over by the spanish,
where as England and Scotland formed a union for mutual benefit.
> The Benelux countries have also looked at the idea of merging their leagues
> to improve the standard.
Do the Dutch really need to improve that much??
Niall
hagg...@moo.u.gwelf
In soc.culture.scottish Lynn L McIntyre <lmci...@uoguelph.ca> wrote:
:Steve Howie (sho...@ccshst01.cs.uoguelph.ca) wrote:
Dunno about that :) BTW his three letter acronym was SCO when the camera
covered the starting grid.
--
Hakan Schang
In article <5g3vbs$15...@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>, h...@custard.bnsc.rl.ac.uk (Huw Morris) writes:
> Michael Wade wrote:
> > The English and Scottish leagues are separate and were both founded in
> > the 19th century. Aside from the fact that anyone with a passing
> > acquaintance of the UK realises they are separate countries, the fact
> > that they have always been separate leagues gives rise to the fact that
> > each fields its own national side.
>
> of England and Scotland as seperate _countries_. Since the 1701 union
> the country has been the United Kingdom. England, Scotland, Wales and
> Northern Ireland are the four provinces of the United Kingdom.
>
> Slovenia, Macedonia and Montenegro before the breakup of Yugoslavia. (OK
> so Serbia and Montenegro still aren't seperate countries.)
>
It's quite interesting to see that the Brittish people don't have uniform
view of this topic. How can you then expect people from other countries (such
as myself) to have a clear view of this??
Due to my respect for those who like to read about F1 in this ng, this is my
last posting regarding the dispute about Scotland being an independent country.
(which I kind of started this time...)
FORZA!
/HS
P.S.
If you like to reply, send me an email and don't reply in this ng.
D.S.
--
________________________ _
___ Hakan Schang | _ _
|_o_| sch...@ts.umu.se |-| |_| |': |': '_| |': |
__[]=(_)=[]____http://www.ts.umu.se/~schang____ _|_ |_, | | |_| | | ____
Bob Boakes
Jim Reid wrote:
> Come off it! Study the words. Listen to the tune. It's a *lament* for
> the loss of Scottish independence. Why people think this would be a
> good choice for a national anthem - it's an utterly crap tune too - is
> beyond me.
a kind of watered down commercialised version of the proper tune. You're
quite right about it being a lament. It was originally recorded as a
slow lament in a vaguely folk-baroque style.
Bob
Dustin Christmann
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91-941213.97...@aidan.ncl.ac.uk>,
Well, if you've ever seen the Dutch League apart from Ajax, PSV, and
Feyenoord, or the Belgian League apart from Anderlecht, then you'd have
to say that they do.
--
Thanx, = "Sacred cows make the best hamburger."
Dustin Christmann = -- Mark Twain
==========================================================================
Unofficial Dallas Burn Fan Web Site: http://www.anet-dfw.com/~dustin/burn/
Simon Cossar
The thing I don't understand (being English) is when a Englishman wins
in F1 he wave a Union Jack which represents England, Scotland, Wales and
Northern Ireland, but when a Scot wins he waves the Scottish flag. It
seems Scotland don't want to be part of the UK.
(Helmets is another example - Coulthard has a Scottish flag on his, I've
never seen an English driver use the English flag)
--
Simon Cossar
Donald Kerr
> Dunno about that :) BTW his three letter acronym was SCO when the camera
> covered the starting grid.
Thank god someone finally noticed that Scotland exists and is not a
part of England. Notice the flag on Coulthard's car and the flag on
his waist belt ... Scottish Saltire!
c...@btinternet.com
era...@eraj.ericsson.se (Hakan Schang) wrote:
>Agreed, I'm not interested in it either. I was interested in why
>Scotland, England, Wales sometimes are being treated as independent
>countries.
Well, one could obviously suggest that the Union between Scotland on
the one hand and England/Wales on the other exists only on account of
an international treaty. this is quite like some other Unions (like
the German one, or indeed the American one which of course exists only
by right of conquest of those states which used aremed force to deny
the rights of other states).
It's a pity that people from outside the UK don't understand that the
Union is a treaty artifact - but we can't really blame you for that,
their are many people in Britain who don't realise that the Union with
Scotland is by international treaty (unlike the union of England and
Wales which was by conquest) and you can't really have an
international treaty unless you have two separate nations to have it
between.
c...@btinternet.com
Jim Reid <j...@pc37.mpn.cp.philips.com> wrote:
>Alan K Duff <fp...@dial.pipex.com> writes:
>> Speaking as a Scot, God save the Queen is incredibly dull, boring, and
>> anti-Scottish. Flower of Scotland is the obvious replacement.
>Come off it! Study the words. Listen to the tune. It's a *lament* for
>the loss of Scottish independence. Why people think this would be a
>good choice for a national anthem - it's an utterly crap tune too - is
>beyond me.
You got it in one! Flower of Scotland is totally wrong for our
national anthem.
Actually, it's always puzzled me why we should need a new one.
Why should we want to replace Foghnan na h-Alba?
Mike_Rollins
Dillon Pyron wrote:
>
> Alan K Duff wrote:
> >
> > Speaking as a Scot, God save the Queen is incredibly dull, boring,
> > and
> > anti-Scottish. Flower of Scotland is the obvious replacement.
>
> national anthem of the US. Talk about a boring melody :-)
>
> --
> dillon pyron
> dillon...@amd.com
>
> PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031
> And next time, use a bigger needle
I hope not, I like our anthems tune which comes from an war of 1812
era drinking song called "To Anacreon In Heaven". The only way you can
sing the Star Spangled Banner and even hope to hit the notes is when
half bombed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Rollins e-mail: rol...@optilink.dsccc.com
Member of Technical Staff
DSC Corp. Tel: 707.792.7206
1420 McDowell Blvd. No. Fax: 707.792.7807
Petaluma, CA. WWW:
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Gauton
anderson wrote:
>
God STQ comments deleted
>
> The F1 Drivers Championship is an individual competition so you'd
> think that Coulthard, representing his country, would have insisted on
> something more nationalistic, eg. Scotland the Brave or Flower of
> Scotland as they do in international rugby matches. Come to think of
> it, are there any other sports events at which the Scots play Flower
> of Scotland? Maybe if we started winning more events this issue would
> be resolved more quickly :-)
>
They now play it at football matches too.
When Coulthard was at Williams he had an argument with FW, as he wanted
a saltire displayed on the car, and I seem to remember that having won
over FW, the FIA overruled it as Scotland does not have official status
for entry into the championship. That status is only applied to Great
Britain.
Anyway, Colin Montgomerie and Steven Hendry are pretty victorious on the
world scene. Not to mention Colin McRae. (-:
--
AG
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Gauton | Tel +44 141-548-2686
EEE Department, Signal Processing Division| Fax +44 141-552-2487
The University of Strathclyde, | E-Mail
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#include <standard.disclaimer>
Roger Virgo
From the mouth of David Coulthard himself, "I've no problem with the national
anthem that was played after my AGP victory, I admire the royal family and
what they stand for"
from the Melbourne Sun newspaper.
Roger and out...
Davids opinions are his own and in no way should be read as my own.
--
Roger Virgo Information Systems Division
Email: r...@BarwonWater.Vic.Gov.Au Barwon Water
Phone: +61 52 262597 61-67 Ryrie St Geelong
Fax: +61 52 218236 Victoria 3220 Australia
J York
anderson wrote:
>The Australian Grand Prix podium scene refired a certain musing that I
>haven't thought about for a while - when will the Scots sports people
>start insisting that something *decent* is played as their National
>Anthem when they are on the podium? Let's face it, God Save The Queen
>must be the most lame and uninspiring anthem about - a dodgy waltz
>beat doesn't seem much reward for winning a gruelling sporting event.
>:-)
>
>SNIP
>
>Any comments?
>
>Ritchie Anderson
>ande...@qatar.net.qa
If I may quote the late Michael Flanders from "At the drop of another
hat"..
"You have to be very careful how you distinguish between England and
Britain. If it's something good - it's 'another triumph for Great
Britain'. If it isn't - it's 'England loses again..'". <g>
--
Jeff.
je...@jakfield.u-net.com
... Reality is an uncomfortable condition
brought about by low blood alcohol level...
Lynn L McIntyre
Kulvinder Singh Matharu (KSma...@iee.org) wrote:
: I think his name is Dario Franchitti. His helmet design seemed
: identical to Coulthard's (blue helmet with the with cross).
Almost identical -- he also has the Italian flag around his helmet.
Lynn McIntyre
Lynn L McIntyre
So, can I pop over tomorrow and pick up some of that mealie pudding your
Aunt Senga makes? :)
Lynn
Bob Boakes
Simon Cossar wrote:
>
> The thing I don't understand (being English) is when a Englishman wins
> in F1 he wave a Union Jack which represents England, Scotland, Wales and
> Northern Ireland, but when a Scot wins he waves the Scottish flag. It
> seems Scotland don't want to be part of the UK.
>
Got it in one.
Well if we're going to be precise then it's not all that clear what
proportion of Scots wish to be in the UK, we'll doubtless have a better
idea after the election and subsequent referendum.
When it comes to sport however I don't think there's much doubt, Most
Scots would prefer it if English sportsmen stuck to their own flag etc
and Scots to theirs.
Bob
Angus MacCulloch
Hakan Schang wrote:
>
> In article <33255543...@news.qatar.net.qa>, anderson writes:
> > For the same reason that the Swedes would sing the European Union's
> > anthem if one existed?
> BTW, doesn't a EU anthem exist? I think I recollect that Beethoven's
> symphony no.9 is regarded as an official EU anthem. Am I wrong?
'Ode to Joy' is the EU anthem and is used when a anthem is required.
Angus.
--
**********************************************************
* Angus D. MacCulloch Faculty of Law *
* Tel: +44 (0)161 275 3582 University of Manchester *
* Fax: +44 (0)161 275 3579 Manchester M13 9PL *
**********************************************************
George Macdonald
Hmmm, I guess you *just* have to have the last word! (as well as the
first) ;-)
Rgds, George
Roy Gordon Culley
In article <5g77d0$e...@neon.btinternet.com>,
c...@btinternet.com writes:
> You got it in one! Flower of Scotland is totally wrong for our
> national anthem.
How about 'The Welly Boot Song' by you know who :-)
--
Roy G. Culley, Unix Systems Administrator, EMail: rcu...@tell.ascom.ch
Ascom Hasler AG, Abt NXDI6, Belpstrasse 37, Tel: +41 31 999 35 34
CH 3000 Bern 14, Switzerland. Fax: +41 31 999 24 78
Huw Morris
George Macdonald wrote:
> Hmmm, I guess you *just* have to have the last word! (as well as the
> first) ;-)
He didn't have the last word - you did! No hang on, I did...
hagg...@moo.u.gwelf
In soc.culture.scottish Jim Reid <j...@pc37.mpn.cp.philips.com> wrote:
:Steve Howie <sho...@ccshst01.cs.uoguelph.ca> writes:
Well, you tell me ...
Hakan Schang
> Hmmm, I guess you *just* have to have the last word! (as well as the
> first) ;-)
>
> Rgds, George
No, I'll let you have this one. ...oops! ;-)
FORZA!
/HS
Hakan Schang
In article <5g98dd$14...@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>, h...@custard.bnsc.rl.ac.uk (Huw Morris) writes:
> George Macdonald wrote:
> > Hmmm, I guess you *just* have to have the last word! (as well as the
> > first) ;-)
>
>
> Huw
>
Nope. I did, again! ;-)
(let's stop this silly thread here ok? ;-) )
Lianne Macdonald
On 11 Mar 1997 03:30:26 GMT, Steve Howie
<sho...@ccshst01.cs.uoguelph.ca> wrote:
>Good point. In the recent INDY Car race in Miami, the Scottish racer with
>the Italian name (forget), was presented as coming from Scotland by the
>ABC commentary team. Quite astounding. So there is hope yet :)
>
Dario Franchetti (yes I know we've already got this, but you all spelt
it wrong) :-)
Hey, I didn't realise that Americans actually knew Scotland existed as
anything other than a part of England, so there must be a small
glimmer of hope!
Back to the main topic-
F1 is really a team effort, the cars importance is at least 50%, even
Shumacer wouldn't get far in a Lola. Coulthard's car is run by a
German engine and the teams base is in England, so it could be unfair
of us to use a Scottish anthem, although the winning constructor gets
their national anthem played too........so I've just rubbished my own
argument!!!
Gavin Thomas
I've been following this thread for a while now, and I reckon I've come
up with a comprimise (sp?). Why not, when a 'British' driver wins, they
play God save the Queen (despite it being a damn boring tune :-) ), but
instead of flying the Union Flag behind him, use the drivers 'national'
flag, i.e if David Coulthard (or any other scot) wins use St. Andrews
cross, if one of the English drivers win, use St. Georges cross. In the
unlikely event of there ever being a Welsh F1 driver (shame really, cos
then I'd have a driver to support), use the Welsh flag (that's the one
with the red dragon on a green and white backgound for anybody not from
the UK). I don't know what you'd do about Ireland/Northern Ireland. I'm
not going to get drawn into Irish politics.
Of course you could reverse all that, and have the Union Flag flying and
use different national anthems for the different drivers (of course
English drivers would then have to use some other anthem, cos I don't
think that it's right that they use God Save the Queen, when that's the
BRITISH/UK (i.e England AND Scotland AND Wales AND Northern Ireland)
National Anthem. )
Of course, this is all a load of rubbish, since it ain't going to happen!
Gavin
Lachie Macquarie
In article <33274909...@news.u-net.com>, J York <jeff@jakfield.u-
net.com> writes
>If I may quote the late Michael Flanders from "At the drop of another
>hat"..
>
>"You have to be very careful how you distinguish between England and
>Britain. If it's something good - it's 'another triumph for Great
>Britain'. If it isn't - it's 'England loses again..'". <g>
>
>--
>Jeff.
>je...@jakfield.u-net.com
>
>... Reality is an uncomfortable condition
> brought about by low blood alcohol level...
F&S got it wrong. A Scot does anything of any note he/she is Brit,
fighting at fitbaa' SCOTTISH. Where as a fine English person doing good
would be Engerlish, but trashing tents in Sweden, throwing steel bars at
the Irish, British fans. The trouble is the small nation big nation
syndrome, take Aus/NZ USA/CAN. It is not your fault as the "English" but
I can tell you it is bloody annoying that unless it shortbread, whisky,
cloning etc that we are fogotten. I could go on but it is not fair to
bother all big important nation people. I'll be quiet noo. Sorry I said
anything.
Another thing if you did not mean what I was disagreeing about, you may
not be even big nation. Please accept my humblest.
--
Loosely Macquarie
Colin Rosenthal
On Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:43:44 GMT, Lianne Macdonald <Lianne.M...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>Hey, I didn't realise that Americans actually knew Scotland existed as
>anything other than a part of England, so there must be a small
>glimmer of hope!
A rather high percentage seem to think it's a part of Ireland.
--
Colin Rosenthal
High Altitude Observatory
Boulder, Colorado
rose...@hao.ucar.edu
Alan Sleight
In article <4CI15DAZ...@cmcuk.demon.co.uk>, Simon Cossar
<si...@cmcuk.demon.co.uk> writes
>The thing I don't understand (being English) is when a Englishman wins
>in F1 he wave a Union Jack which represents England, Scotland, Wales and
>Northern Ireland, but when a Scot wins he waves the Scottish flag. It
>seems Scotland don't want to be part of the UK.
>
>never seen an English driver use the English flag)
>
Does this mean you have never seen Nigel Mansell's Helmet ?
Best regards
Big Al
--
Alan Sleight "It is a wise child that knows it's Father"
01772 862747
al...@asleight.demon.co.uk
Michael Swift
In article <33286B...@man.ac.uk>, Angus MacCulloch
<angus.d.m...@man.ac.uk> writes
>'Ode to Joy' is the EU anthem and is used when a anthem is required.
>
>Angus.
>--
Joy and the E.U. now that is a joke, surely it's the Runaway (Gravy)
Train.
Mike
--
Michael Swift "What's so unpleasant about being drunk?"
Kirkheaton "You ask a glass of water."
Yorkshire Douglas Adams..THHGttG
George Macdonald
Huw Morris wrote:
>
> George Macdonald wrote:
> > Hmmm, I guess you *just* have to have the last word! (as well as the
> > first) ;-)
>
> He didn't have the last word - you did! No hang on, I did...
>
> Huw
Hmmm, ehhhh, but I didn't *say* that I had to have it. Back to you...
or whoever.
Rgds, George
Tom Ridge
Alan K Duff wrote:
>
> Speaking as a Scot, God save the Queen is incredibly dull, boring, and
> anti-Scottish. Flower of Scotland is the obvious replacement.
The National Anthem may be dull; it may bore you to death; you may not
like the words, the tune, the rythm, the sentiments or the people who
sing it, stand up for it, like it...blah. But to say that it is "anti
Scottish" is just ridiculous. For it to be anti-Scottish surely it would
have to contain words like "Scottish people are rubbish" or "let's
invade Scotland".
Just a thought.
Tom
Gavin Thomas
Alan Sleight wrote:
>
> In article <4CI15DAZ...@cmcuk.demon.co.uk>, Simon Cossar
> <si...@cmcuk.demon.co.uk> writes
> >The thing I don't understand (being English) is when a Englishman wins
> >in F1 he wave a Union Jack which represents England, Scotland, Wales and
> >Northern Ireland, but when a Scot wins he waves the Scottish flag. It
> >seems Scotland don't want to be part of the UK.
> >
> >(Helmets is another example - Coulthard has a Scottish flag on his, I've
> >never seen an English driver use the English flag)
> >
> Simon,
> Does this mean you have never seen Nigel Mansell's Helmet ?
WRONG!. Nigel Mansell's helmet had the Union Flag on it, NOT St. Georges
Cross flag.
Union Flag = UK/Britain whatever you want to call it (I'm not going to
start another thread expalining the difference between UK, GB Britain
etc. )
St. Georges Cross (the red cross on white background, No not the Red
Cross :-) ) = England.
Sorry for being totally pedantic,
Gavin (from Wales, which is part of the UK, but not England)
hagg...@moo.u.gwelf
In soc.culture.scottish Simon Cossar <si...@cmcuk.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:The thing I don't understand (being English) is when a Englishman wins
:in F1 he wave a Union Jack which represents England, Scotland, Wales and
:Northern Ireland, but when a Scot wins he waves the Scottish flag. It
:seems Scotland don't want to be part of the UK.
Ah you noticed that, Simon? :)
hagg...@moo.u.gwelf
In soc.culture.scottish J York <je...@jakfield.u-net.com> wrote:
:anderson wrote:
:>The Australian Grand Prix podium scene refired a certain musing that I
:>haven't thought about for a while - when will the Scots sports people
:>start insisting that something *decent* is played as their National
:>Anthem when they are on the podium? Let's face it, God Save The Queen
:>must be the most lame and uninspiring anthem about - a dodgy waltz
:>beat doesn't seem much reward for winning a gruelling sporting event.
:"You have to be very careful how you distinguish between England and
:Britain. If it's something good - it's 'another triumph for Great
:Britain'. If it isn't - it's 'England loses again..'". <g>
I thought it was the other way around? :)
Nick
Alan Sleight wrote:
>
> In article <4CI15DAZ...@cmcuk.demon.co.uk>, Simon Cossar
> <si...@cmcuk.demon.co.uk> writes
> >in F1 he wave a Union Jack which represents England, Scotland, Wales and
> >Northern Ireland, but when a Scot wins he waves the Scottish flag. It
> >seems Scotland don't want to be part of the UK.
> >
> >never seen an English driver use the English flag)
> >
> Simon,
> Does this mean you have never seen Nigel Mansell's Helmet ?
>
>
> Big Al
> --
> Alan Sleight "It is a wise child that knows it's Father"
> 01772 862747
> al...@asleight.demon.co.uk
Nigel has the UNION FLAG on his helmet , Not the English cross.
Bruce Munro
In article <3327C0...@gcal.ac.uk>, Bob Boakes <R.Bo...@gcal.ac.uk> wrote:
>Simon Cossar wrote:
>Well if we're going to be precise then it's not all that clear what
>proportion of Scots wish to be in the UK, we'll doubtless have a better
>idea after the election and subsequent referendum.
>When it comes to sport however I don't think there's much doubt, Most
>Scots would prefer it if English sportsmen stuck to their own flag etc
>and Scots to theirs.
Well, thankfully things seem to be going this way. I know it's a bit
of a bugbear with Scots that England football supporters use the Union
Flag an awful lot, rather than the Cross of St. George. However, at
the Euro '96 games it was noticeable that the number of CoSG had increased
greatly, so it may be that the message has finally reached them.
--
Bruce Munro. <bocm...@nortel.ca>
"The game is about glory. It is about doing things in style, with a
flourish, about going out and beating the other lot, not waiting for
them to die of boredom." - Danny Blanchflower
Lianne Macdonald
>The thing I don't understand (being English) is when a Englishman wins
>in F1 he wave a Union Jack which represents England, Scotland, Wales and
>Northern Ireland, but when a Scot wins he waves the Scottish flag. It
>seems Scotland don't want to be part of the UK.
>
>(Helmets is another example - Coulthard has a Scottish flag on his, I've
>never seen an English driver use the English flag)
So when all the English fans at wembley were waving their Union Jacks
during Euro 96, they were supporting GB? I think not.
Have you ever seen a Scottish, Welsh or Irish football fan waving the
UJ at a match, no......
The reason the English use the Union Jack is because, with typical
arrogance, they see it as England firstly, and GB second, which is why
we use our own flags, NOT the flag of the union.
Lianne.M...@btinternet.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Partick Thistle - ~
~ The Great Glasgow ~
~ Alternative ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul Crankshaw
Alan Sleight <Al...@asleight.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4CI15DAZ...@cmcuk.demon.co.uk>, Simon Cossar
> <si...@cmcuk.demon.co.uk> writes
> >The thing I don't understand (being English) is when a Englishman wins
> >in F1 he wave a Union Jack which represents England, Scotland, Wales and
> >Northern Ireland, but when a Scot wins he waves the Scottish flag.
>
Could it be that whereas Scots realise they are Scottish, English people
appear to think that "English" and "British" are terms which are
inter-changeable. How else do you explain the waving of the British
flag at English football matches?
>>It seems Scotland don't want to be part of the UK.
> >
Could be.
Michael Swift
In article <ZOR5+CAE...@asleight.demon.co.uk>, Alan Sleight
<Al...@asleight.demon.co.uk> writes
>>
>Simon,
> Does this mean you have never seen Nigel Mansell's Helmet ?
>
>Best regards
>
>Big Al
>--
cross on white, even the England footy team use the Union Flag colours.
Simon Cossar
In article <ZOR5+CAE...@asleight.demon.co.uk>, Alan Sleight
<Al...@asleight.demon.co.uk> writes
>Simon,
> Does this mean you have never seen Nigel Mansell's Helmet ?
>
>Best regards
>
>Big Al
Are you sure Mansells helmet wasn't represtenting the Union Jack?
--
Simon
Frank Doberman
Craig Cockburn wrote:
>
> Ann an sgriobhainn <33244D...@dial.pipex.com>, sgriobh Alan K Duff
> <fp...@dial.pipex.com>
> >Speaking as a Scot, God save the Queen is incredibly dull, boring, and
> >anti-Scottish. Flower of Scotland is the obvious replacement.
>
Nahh - what you *really*, *really* want is "Scotland for Ever". Can't
understand why this is never used for Scottish sporting occasions...
---------
Big Frank
CaptGrimes
Tom Ridge writes....
>Alan K Duff wrote:
>
> Speaking as a Scot, God save the Queen is incredibly dull, boring, and
> anti-Scottish. Flower of Scotland is the obvious replacement.
<<The National Anthem may be dull; it may bore you to death; you may not
like the words, the tune, the rythm, the sentiments or the people who
sing it, stand up for it, like it...blah. But to say that it is "anti
Scottish" is just ridiculous. For it to be anti-Scottish surely it would
have to contain words like "Scottish people are rubbish" or "let's
invade Scotland". >>
Oh, but it is anti-Scottish.
Check out this verse that was added to the National Anthem in 1740 in
honour of Marshal George Wade who led the army of occupation following the
Stuart rebellion.
God grant that Marshal Wade
My by thy mighty aid
Victory Bring.
May he sedition crush
And like a torrent rush
Rebellious Scots to crush
God save the King.
Anti Scottish? I THINK SO!
Grimes
Charles Ellson
> Alan K Duff wrote:
> >
> > Speaking as a Scot, God save the Queen is incredibly dull, boring, and
> > anti-Scottish. Flower of Scotland is the obvious replacement.
>
> The National Anthem may be dull; it may bore you to death; you may not
> like the words, the tune, the rythm, the sentiments or the people who
> sing it, stand up for it, like it...blah. But to say that it is "anti
> Scottish" is just ridiculous. For it to be anti-Scottish surely it would
> have to contain words like "Scottish people are rubbish" or "let's
> invade Scotland".
>
You missed:
"Lord grant that Marshall Wade,
Shall with thy mighty aid,
Victory bring,
May he sedition hush,
Down like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the king"
--
_______
+---------------------------------------------------+ |\\ //|
| Charles Ellson E-mail cha...@ellson.demon.co.uk | | \\ // |
+---------------------------------------------------+ | > < |
| // \\ |
Alba gu brath |//___\\|
Ian Johnston
Charles Ellson (Cha...@ellson.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: "Lord grant that Marshall Wade,
: Shall with thy mighty aid,
: Victory bring,
: May he sedition hush,
: Down like a torrent rush,
: Rebellious Scots to crush,
: God save the king"
And how long is it since that verse was part of the anthem? Anyway, if we're
going to be picky, it could be taken as referring only to those Scots who
were rebels. And of course, most - though by no means all - of the people
who wanted to destroy what small element of democracy there was in Britain
and replace it with a royal line with a track record in corrupt an totalitarian
government were indeed Scots.
But my main point is that the verse was included very briefly a couple of
hundred years ago. It is quite irrelevant to the anthem today (which is
still an unpleasant dirge imho).
Ian
Craig Cockburn
Ann an sgriobhainn <33285C...@cc.uab.es>, sgriobh Tom Ridge
<ii...@cc.uab.es>
>Alan K Duff wrote:
>>
>> Speaking as a Scot, God save the Queen is incredibly dull, boring, and
>> anti-Scottish. Flower of Scotland is the obvious replacement.
>
>The National Anthem may be dull; it may bore you to death; you may not
>like the words, the tune, the rythm, the sentiments or the people who
>sing it, stand up for it, like it...blah. But to say that it is "anti
>Scottish" is just ridiculous. For it to be anti-Scottish surely it would
>have to contain words like "Scottish people are rubbish" or "let's
>invade Scotland".
>
--
Craig Cockburn ("coburn"), Du\n E/ideann, Alba. (Edinburgh, Scotland)
http://www.scot.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: cr...@scot.demon.co.uk
Sgri\obh thugam 'sa Gha\idhlig ma 'se do thoil e.
Zegab
captg...@aol.com (CaptGrimes) wrote:
>Tom Ridge writes....
>>Alan K Duff wrote:
>> Speaking as a Scot, God save the Queen is incredibly dull, boring, and
>> anti-Scottish. Flower of Scotland is the obvious replacement.
><<The National Anthem may be dull; it may bore you to death; you may not
>like the words, the tune, the rythm, the sentiments or the people who
>sing it, stand up for it, like it...blah. But to say that it is "anti
>Scottish" is just ridiculous. For it to be anti-Scottish surely it would
>have to contain words like "Scottish people are rubbish" or "let's
>invade Scotland". >>
>Oh, but it is anti-Scottish.
>Check out this verse that was added to the National Anthem in 1740 in
>honour of Marshal George Wade who led the army of occupation following the
>Stuart rebellion.
>God grant that Marshal Wade
>My by thy mighty aid
>Victory Bring.
>May he sedition crush
>And like a torrent rush
>Rebellious Scots to crush
>God save the King.
>Anti Scottish? I THINK SO!
Well, now I shink sho too
Zegab
Alan Sleight
In article <332913...@pix.za>, Nick <ni...@pix.za> writes
>
>You obviously Don't know what the "English" flag looks like ,cause
>Nigel has the UNION FLAG on his helmet , Not the English cross.
It's a long time to the next race,and i am feeling slightly
pedantic so here goes.The union flag is the national flag of the United
Kingdom and is made up of the Red Cross of St George and White Saltaire
cross of St Andrew surmounted by the Red Saltaire cross of St Patrick
and retaining the blue ground of banner of St Andrew (what happened to
Wales ? and i do not mean The Arms Park) So technically Nigel has the
cross of St George on there somewhere. ;-) O.K i give in i'm clutching
at straws,with 300-400 posts a night to read i tend to skip through them
too fast and i missed Simon's point,i apologise and will donate UK 5.00
to Comic relief as way of repentance.
best regards
Andrew Watson
Donald Kerr <don...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in article
<199703112...@zetnet.co.uk>...
> >I'm British (half English, half Welsh) and I would dispute your
description
> >of England and Scotland as seperate _countries_.
>
> You would probably say that Scotland was part of England. I am
> Scottish and I can tell you that it IS a different country.
Every Scot I've ever met who wants to get one over on us poor Englanders
says ( whilst normally drunk ) :-
" Remember Bannockburn ! "
To which I reply
" Remember Culloden ! "
But I love them anyhow, Sutherland, Bettyhill, Ben Loyal, Loch Eribol
... the most fantastic countryside on earth .. even the local police get
pissed and drive you home from the pub. And if you're not being beaten up
by Glaswegian fishermen ( including your wife ) and the midges don't get
you then it's Heaven on Earth .. fucking marvellous.
Andy
Lianne Macdonald
On 13 Mar 1997 20:09:06 GMT, rose...@asp.hao.ucar.edu (Colin
Rosenthal) wrote:
>>Hey, I didn't realise that Americans actually knew Scotland existed as
>>anything other than a part of England, so there must be a small
>>glimmer of hope!
>
>A rather high percentage seem to think it's a part of Ireland.
>
>--
>Colin Rosenthal
>High Altitude Observatory
>Boulder, Colorado
>rose...@hao.ucar.edu
Hmmm....I wonder if the Scottish Tourist Board realise this.
"Excuse me, but can I be you for a while?" - Tori Amos
======================================================
Lianne.M...@btinternet.com
J York
Lianne.M...@btinternet.com (Lianne Macdonald) wrote:
>
>Have you ever seen a Scottish, Welsh or Irish football fan waving the
>UJ at a match, no......
>The reason the English use the Union Jack is because, with typical
>arrogance, they see it as England firstly, and GB second, which is why
>we use our own flags, NOT the flag of the union.
>Lianne.M...@btinternet.com
Remember, you are talking about football here. It's not arrogance on
the part of English fans - it's sheer bloody ignorance.