Tracy Roketta - a warning!
Kim Andrews
Tracy is currently packing her bags to return to Canada. Any moment
now she will burst, once more, upon the poor innocents of RASF1.
At this point, she assures me, she will be "irritatingly pedantic" as
she trawls her way through the back-log of the last two week's posts.
This, presumably, will be just noticeably different from the usual
RASF1 practice of trolling her way through....
Tracy has asked me to post this warning. Consider yourselves told.
Kimbo
Formula One Cartoon Archive
Home to the RAS.F1 t-shirt
http://www.foca.co.uk
k...@foca.co.uk
Tom Cosgrave
Kim Andrews wrote in message
<3561fffb...@news.powernet.co.uk>...
>Tracy is currently packing her bags to return to
Canada. Any moment
>now she will burst, once more, upon the poor innocents
of RASF1.
Tell her to suck a twiglet ;-)
Tom
--
Tom Cosgrave tpc@REMOVE_THIS.indigo.ie
The F1 Test Site :-
http://cbr.cls.com.au/f1test/f1test.html
Support Sarah and the RASF1 car in BOSS in 1998 :-
http://www.sarah.org/sarah/rasf1
Ian Thomas
Tom Cosgrave wrote:
>
> Kim Andrews wrote in message
> <3561fffb...@news.powernet.co.uk>...
> >Tracy is currently packing her bags to return to
> Canada. Any moment
> >now she will burst, once more, upon the poor innocents
> of RASF1.
>
> Tell her to suck a twiglet ;-)
>
Don't they go all limp when you do that? :-)
--
<http://freespace.virgin.net/ian.thomas1> (Updated 28th April)
Ian 'Ziggy' Thomas - Stratford, London, England - The suns out ([:])
Emma
Thomas you'd better head back to the barn, if you're not there she'll
get very angry... :-)
--
Emma
"Having being asked the meaning of life, the Zen master stood up, placed
his sandal on his head and walked away."
Frankie Goes to Hollywood - Relax, Single Cover
Thomas Gmuer
Kim Andrews <k...@foca.co.uk> wrote:
> Tracy is currently packing her bags to return to Canada. Any moment
> now she will burst, once more, upon the poor innocents of RASF1.
Ohh no, first thing she will say is "back to the barn Thomas, NOW!":-)
But too late: the fridge is empty, the flowers got no water at all, the
grass is higher than ever and I forgot to tape Coronation Street. The
only thing she will like is that there is most definetly no more snow in
her driveway!
Welcome back home, honey!
Thomas
--
* Remove "aly" from domain to answer *
Irwin Sabath
k...@foca.co.uk (Kim Andrews) wrote:
>Tracy is currently packing her bags to return to Canada. Any moment
>now she will burst, once more, upon the poor innocents of RASF1.
>
>At this point, she assures me, she will be "irritatingly pedantic" as
>she trawls her way through the back-log of the last two week's posts.
>This, presumably, will be just noticeably different from the usual
>RASF1 practice of trolling her way through....
>
>Tracy has asked me to post this warning. Consider yourselves told.<
Consider this:
About a week ago, Tracy goes on "vacation"
" " " " MJF "vanishes."
Yesterday, MJF returns to RASF1
" Tracy's imminent return is announced by Kim.
Coincidence?
You be the judge..
--
Irwin
t.i.n.s.t.a.a.f.l.
(Helping victims of conventional wisdom)
Ian Thomas
Ah the smell of freshly made rumours, don't you just love it? :-)
Kim Andrews
>Irwin Sabath wrote:
>>
>> k...@foca.co.uk (Kim Andrews) wrote:
>>
>> >Tracy is currently packing her bags to return to Canada. Any moment
>> >now she will burst, once more, upon the poor innocents of RASF1.
>> >
>> >At this point, she assures me, she will be "irritatingly pedantic" as
>> >she trawls her way through the back-log of the last two week's posts.
>> >This, presumably, will be just noticeably different from the usual
>> >RASF1 practice of trolling her way through....
>> >
>> >Tracy has asked me to post this warning. Consider yourselves told.<
>>
>> Consider this:
>>
>> About a week ago, Tracy goes on "vacation"
>> " " " " MJF "vanishes."
>>
>> Yesterday, MJF returns to RASF1
>> " Tracy's imminent return is announced by Kim.
>>
>> Coincidence?
>>
>> You be the judge..
>>
>
>Ah the smell of freshly made rumours, don't you just love it? :-)
Absolutely! I'll back up the highest bidder.
Tom Cosgrave
Irwin Sabath wrote in message
>About a week ago, Tracy goes on "vacation"
> " " " " MJF "vanishes."
>
>Yesterday, MJF returns to RASF1
> " Tracy's imminent return is announced
by Kim.
>
>Coincidence?
>
>You be the judge..
Sorry Irwin :-) When I met Tracy Sunday, there was no
mark, or marks ;-) in sight :-)
Tracy Roketta
>>Tracy is currently packing her bags to return to
>Canada. Any moment
>>now she will burst, once more, upon the poor innocents
>of RASF1.
>
>
>Tell her to suck a twiglet ;-)
I looked for them...couldn't find any...at least...not any that I'd
tell you guys about...;-)
--
Tracy
http://www-fhs.mcmaster.ca/biomed/staff/tracyshp.htm
"Ironically of course, last year Alesi couldn't be persuaded to
come in at all by Benetton. This time Hakkinen is coming in
willy nilly."
James Allen, Australian Grand Prix, 1998.
Tracy Roketta
On Wed, 20 May 1998 18:49:51 GMT, k...@foca.co.uk (Kim Andrews) wrote:
>>> >Tracy is currently packing her bags to return to Canada. Any moment
>>> >now she will burst, once more, upon the poor innocents of RASF1.
>>> >
>>> >At this point, she assures me, she will be "irritatingly pedantic" as
>>> >she trawls her way through the back-log of the last two week's posts.
>>> >This, presumably, will be just noticeably different from the usual
>>> >RASF1 practice of trolling her way through....
>>> >
>>> >Tracy has asked me to post this warning. Consider yourselves told.<
>>>
>>> Consider this:
>>>
>>> About a week ago, Tracy goes on "vacation"
>>> " " " " MJF "vanishes."
>>>
>>> Yesterday, MJF returns to RASF1
>>> " Tracy's imminent return is announced by Kim.
>>>
>>> Coincidence?
>>>
>>> You be the judge..
>>>
>>
>>Ah the smell of freshly made rumours, don't you just love it? :-)
>
>Absolutely! I'll back up the highest bidder.
Some friend you are!!!
Tracy Roketta
On Wed, 20 May 1998 16:05:48 GMT, ins...@airmail.net (Irwin Sabath)
wrote:
>>Tracy is currently packing her bags to return to Canada. Any moment
>>now she will burst, once more, upon the poor innocents of RASF1.
>>
>>At this point, she assures me, she will be "irritatingly pedantic" as
>>she trawls her way through the back-log of the last two week's posts.
>>This, presumably, will be just noticeably different from the usual
>>RASF1 practice of trolling her way through....
>>
>>Tracy has asked me to post this warning. Consider yourselves told.
I did think about this and posting an infuriatingly huge amount of AOL
replies...but when I downloaded almost 4300 messages I said "piss on
it" and this is the extent you're getting.
>Consider this:
>
>About a week ago, Tracy goes on "vacation"
> " " " " MJF "vanishes."
>
>Yesterday, MJF returns to RASF1
> " Tracy's imminent return is announced by Kim.
>
>Coincidence?
>
>You be the judge..
I hardly think so!!!
Tracy Roketta
On Wed, 20 May 1998 15:01:13 +0200, tho...@misterbyte.italy (Thomas
Gmuer) wrote:
>> Tracy is currently packing her bags to return to Canada. Any moment
>> now she will burst, once more, upon the poor innocents of RASF1.
>
>Ohh no, first thing she will say is "back to the barn Thomas, NOW!":-)
>But too late: the fridge is empty, the flowers got no water at all, the
>grass is higher than ever and I forgot to tape Coronation Street. The
>only thing she will like is that there is most definetly no more snow in
>her driveway!
>
>Welcome back home, honey!
Thank you Thomas...wish I could say I'm happy to be home but I'm
not...
Tracy Roketta
>> >Tracy is currently packing her bags to return to
>> Canada. Any moment
>> >now she will burst, once more, upon the poor innocents
>> of RASF1.
>>
>> Tell her to suck a twiglet ;-)
>>
>
>Don't they go all limp when you do that? :-)
All depends on the twiglet's stamina. I don't know what your
experience is Ian...
Tom Cosgrave
Tracy Roketta wrote:
>
> On Wed, 20 May 1998 09:56:48 -0700, Ian Thomas
> <thoma...@jpmorgan.com> wrote:
> >Don't they go all limp when you do that? :-)
>
> All depends on the twiglet's stamina. I don't know what your
> experience is Ian...
Probably doesn't go hard at all ;-)
Tom
--
Tom Cosgrave
To...@teamsoft.ie.remove
All opinions expressed are mine.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like
and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
-Bilbo Baggins, The Lord of The Rings, Vol.I
Sarah Kavanagh Sports
Dear Rasf1,
I have been reading the various posts over the last few days and would like
to address some of the points raised .
Clearly the post requiring most attention was John mc Goldrick who was
knowledgeable enough to assert that:
a. Sarah had the benefit of a race fix by the organisers
b. She has ample budget but is still unable to get a drive in Japan
c. The BOSS drivers are all crap
d. Sarah is part of an RTE TV fraternity which gets her her publicity
e. There are many more talented drivers in Ireland more deserving than Sarah
Well we all know that the Tyrrell overtook under yellows and that is that.
He got a stop / go which was agreed would be the way any penalties would be
administered before the race rather than exclusions and appeals that go on
all night. Unfortunately for Rob Gray he was unsighted by a marshalls van
and for the sake of safety had to go by or risk locking up and hitting the
thing, he had to go by Sarah. The fault for his penalty goes 100% to the
marshalling which was very sub-standard on the day.
Sarah's budget is very very small, if it weren't the Jordan would be up and
running. We are not in a position to throw money at it like we wish we
could. A lot of time is spent saving a few pounds here and there. The
question of Sarah racing in Japan is a simple one, until their half way
point the dates clash except for Suzuka which was too early for us to commit
to while getting the BOSS going. If Sarah wanted to drive in japan she could
have done so with no less than 5 teams. Although you might not want to
acknowledge it, Japanese teams know the circumstances of her arrival in
Japan and subsequent races and realise that she is faster than at least the
second half of the grid out of the box, and with the same testing as
everyone else they know that she would be very much at the pointy end of the
grid.
Because of this she has had invites from 5 teams to drive for them. At this
stage all those drives are gone but many drivers are on part budget and
there will be seats available soon. What you must take into account is that
even with a free-ish drive it costs between £10-15K per race just to turn
up. The Japanese have all sorts of registration fees, compulsory insurances
and special charges that each driver must pay. It costs the same to do a
BOSS race in the Reynard F3000 as to turn up for a free drive in Japan.
On the subject of the BOSS drivers. Nobody has seemed to bother to look into
the records of some of these drivers or look at what they are really doing.
Take Tony Worswick, he has built his Jordan 194 himself to full 1994 spec,
he is at least 40 and has more trophies for all sorts of motor racing wins
than half the current F1 grid. He had a problem with his car at Mondello and
had to go back to the UK on Saturday night for bits. He got no sleep (or
very little) before the race and still delighted the crowds and was bloody
quick.
Most of the current F1 drivers save for Irvine, Schumacher and Hakkinen
would be too scared to drive around a circuit like Mondello Park which is
unsuitable and dangerous for an F1 car in all respects. 'Safety' would be
the cited reason but 'scared' would be the real one.
In my opinion a guy like Tony (as an example) not only deserves major credit
for his achievements but has more talent in his arse than half the current
F1 grid of spoiled nancy boys.
If you speak with Engine developments or Nicholson McLaren (Judd V10 &
Cosworth AC builders) they will tell you that the data that's coming out of
the engines is absolutley no different than 'real' F1 or F3000. Anybody that
was at Mondello Park will surely agree that some of these guys are really
pushing these cars.
I despair when I read rasf1 slagging off the BOSS as something like 'not
real racing'. Forgive me but you are being media led. I guarantee you that
if we put Juan Pablo Montoya, Ricardo Zonta and Gonzalo Rodrigues in a race
suddenly Autosport would move the reports to the front and you would be
reading articles like ' BOSS F1 'B' - the way to the top'. At this point the
BOSS would be more in vogue and 'voila' suddenly it's great.
Clearly the way to the top in F1 is to drive an F1 car? Is it not obvious
that with the current growth of the BOSS series it is only a matter of time
before more drivers cotton on the what we are trying to achieve with Sarah
and come looking for F1 car experience? Bear in mind that Sarah's F3000 from
95 is the 'real' F3000 and is a clear 2secs quicker around Snett than the
current F3000. No F3000 driver is taking any experience from the current
setup other than track knowledge into F1. To make matters worse, the F1 team
managers are still in shock at how far away from F1 they have managed to
make the current F3000. Hopefully the new 1999 car might get some downforce!
Then you might see the drivers being able to step into F1 without 20 years
of a test programme.
Sarah is not part of an RTE fraternity. Sarah gets PR coverage because we
work hard at getting it. She has no family or other money so any budget
comes from sponsorship or rasf1. I'm afraid when this is the case you must
work very hard indeed to give them value and hence the PR. The underlying
tone from McGoldrick is of resentment over this, what he needs to know is
that he couldn't possibly resent it any more than we do, it is the only
thing that goes towards destroying an otherwise brilliant sport.
Whether there are other drivers in Ireland more deserving than SArah is a
matter for debate. There are certainly more exerienced drivers and maybe
quicker drivers but none have got what it takes to go all the way. The main
requirement is hunger, wanting to do it so badly that the sacrifices are
endured without question. I'm speaking from some experience here because I
have represented a couple of irish drivers, one as recently as 1995 who was
widely acknowledged as being the best driver for years, and still could be.
But if you can't get your driver out of bed in the morning, or they turn up
to sponsors meetings unshaven and grubby, or can't help gettting sucked into
a drinks party the night before a race - you're on to nothing, a waste of
time for all.
Getting into F1 is such a combination of factors these days. Of course if
you are exceptionally quick like a Schu or Senna you are welcomed with open
arms. But clearly few are so all the other factors come into play, are you
fit, are you good looking, are you a decent pedaller, have you got potential
the team can develop, do you understand the car, can you help them with
sponsorship, does Bernie like you, does the media like you? These are some
of the factors that apply to the non-exceptional. Coulthard, Hill, Irvine,
Frentzen, Berger, Herbert, Alesi are some who all belong to this group.
Perhaps Wurz, and Fischicella are better, we'll have to see.
I have known many drivers whose driving talent alone should have got them
into F1, Jeremy Cotterhill, Warren Hughes, Kelvin Burt, Allan McNish, Jamie
Spence etc. But these guys are racing in National championships because they
were not exceptional and they were missing some of the crucial factors
above.
In my opinion Sarah Kavanagh has a more than good shot of making the grade
in F1. I think this because she does a very very good job based on very
little experience and is prepared to make 110% effort right across the
board. She has the will and determination that it takes unlike some more
talented drivers I have worked with. I think at this point Sarah has driven
about 25 car races in total most of those in Class B F.Ford, F. Opel and
class B Formula Vauxhall. As of today she has done 7 F3000 races and 2
tests. This makes her just a baby in motor racing terms. Most drivers get to
do this sort of mileage in pre-season testing in a single year.
This is what makes her very interesting, and shows the potential in her
given some sort of decent scenario. It is this lack of experience that
catches the interest of the motor racing world. Until you have done it, or
worked in a team that's done it, you cannot have any idea of what it takes
to drive the 95D Reynard. You have to be there to see the data, the holes in
the driver's hands and the incredible G that these old supercars produce.
Fortunately people in F1 today know exactly what Sarah is achieving and I
feel aggrieved at having to spell this out to members of the group who
profess to have in depth knowledge of the sport and yet have none other than
a blinkered view of what they think they know about F1.
I read with boredom the posts on that whole topic on spatial awareness. Of
course this is the second time around for those reading the posts last year.
I still have all the posts of the original 'women in F1' thread.
I don't know or care whether women do or don't have better or worse spatial
awareness than men. I do imagine though that there's something to it because
only recently Sarah has stopped getting lost wherever she goes, and so do
all my female friends and relations - but that could be a dumb gene in our
family! But before you go off saying 'I told you so' I would have to say
that I fail to see how it applies to motor racing. It's circuit racing not
orienteering and I'm sure that last weekend Sarah didn't find remembering
the ten corners too taxing, or their location in the universe too difficult
to find. The most difficult track she has raced on is Suzuka and I don't
remember her losing her way there either.
As regards fitness and strength, that's old hat now, forget about it.
Anybody can train up to be fit and strong enough to drive these cars. Don't
believe all you read, compared to being a real athlete in the Olympic sense
they are all fat, unfit and good for nothing - even the best F1 driver.
Driving a racing car today is still the same as it always was, you have to
be able to brake, accelerate and steer. Concentration skills and bravery
makes the difference between a good driver and a great driver. A bad driver
will be the one who still can't manage the accelerate brake and steer bit,
especially if he's expected to do more than one at the same time.
I am delighted that so many people jump to Sarah's defence. To be fair she
doesn't deserve the big critique she has been getting from some in the
group. She's a nice kid who works very hard and suffers at the hands of
begrudgers unneccessarily. John McGoldrick is fairly typical of some of the
Irish Motor racing crowd full shite and 'I beat her 5 times in F. Opel', 'I
used to be quicker than her in karting' and of course the latest 'the race
was fixed for Sarah' and so on. Thankfully they're a dying breed and if John
has any sense he'll get off the boat before it sinks and he's the only one
left on board.
I am sorry to say that I am not going to bother showing Sarah the post-race
posts from the group. I have a very happy and confident driver at this point
and she doesn't need the brain damage from shite like this. I don't see a
queue of drivers and teams wanting to welcome the members of the group into
their operation with open arms or inviting them to their hospitality etc.
Don't think we're in it for the money either, I can't remember when the last
donation came in and given the cynicism of so many of the members I won't be
bothering to ask.
If rasf1 were a real commercial sponsor of Sarah's I would be telling them
that it was good while it lasted but clearly it's time we went our separate
ways. It appears that support for Sarah is 50/50 and it may well be time to
forget about it as a concept, and change it to an individual basis. This is
something that the group can decide for itself, I really couldn't care less,
I'm in the racing business not the talking business and there's work to be
done.
This is something that cropped up before and we were convinced that it was
only a minority and to continue, I really don't see why. As a group rasf1 is
not behind Sarah while certainly some of it's members are, it is those
members we should be having the relationship with and then we wouldn't have
to deal with the crap that those siitting on the fence come out with. I am
fed up with reading the negative posts, fed up of the Nordic racing team
that HAS to change the subject in the middle of a positive thread on Sarah,
fed up of 'she should drive touring cars', 'BOSS is crap', faxing our email
newletter to F1 teams, I could go on, and even better I could quote 100's of
insults that nobody could avoid taking personally, all focused on Sarah, a
racing driver trying harder than most who has never done anyone harm.
Being involved with Sarah was an oportunity to get the newsgroup as close as
possible to actually doing it, rather than just taking about it all the
time. It brought members of the group together in bars and at circuits, it
showed that many in the group were prepared to back a chance to make
history, it gave Sarah moral and financial support at times when £20 was the
difference between eating and not. It was a good thing.
We thought that the Jordan would excite the group, but instead all it did
was invite a slagging for not having it ready and demands for explanations,
we thought the group might help bridge some of the gap in the finances but
instead it sits on the fence waiting with smug journalist-like expressions
all over it.
We really really value the input and effort of all those in the group who
have helped in so many ways and these people have over time become our
friends and allies- these we do not want to lose and are always welcome at
any track in the world where we are racing.
It's make your mind up time.
Mike Magan
Tracy Roketta
On Thu, 21 May 1998 13:53:15 +0100, Tom Cosgrave
<t...@teamsoft.ie.remove> wrote:
>> >Don't they go all limp when you do that? :-)
>>
>> All depends on the twiglet's stamina. I don't know what your
>> experience is Ian...
>
>Probably doesn't go hard at all ;-)
You are a naughty, naughty, naughty boy.
Mark J. Frusciante
tra...@icom.ca (Tracy Roketta) wrote:
->On Wed, 20 May 1998 16:05:48 GMT, ins...@airmail.net (Irwin Sabath) wrote:
[...]
->I did think about this and posting an infuriatingly huge amount of AOL
->replies...but when I downloaded almost 4300 messages I said "piss on
->it" and this is the extent you're getting.
I got 7893...
->>Consider this:
->>About a week ago, Tracy goes on "vacation"
->> " " " " MJF "vanishes."
->>
->>Yesterday, MJF returns to RASF1
->> " Tracy's imminent return is announced by Kim.
->>
->>Coincidence?
->>You be the judge..
->I hardly think so!!!
I *beg* to differ.
(Yeah, I know: "So, what's your point?")
->Tracy
->http://www-fhs.mcmaster.ca/biomed/staff/tracyshp.htm
->"Ironically of course, last year Alesi couldn't be persuaded to
->come in at all by Benetton. This time Hakkinen is coming in
->willy nilly."
->James Allen, Australian Grand Prix, 1998.
Mark
F1 Racing Page http://www.pipeline.com/~opus/racing.htm
Home of the RASF1 autobiographies.
Tom Cosgrave
I'm behind Sarah - I don't really care about the logo.
Tom
Ian Thomas
Tracy Roketta wrote:
>
> On Thu, 21 May 1998 13:53:15 +0100, Tom Cosgrave
> <t...@teamsoft.ie.remove> wrote:
>
> >> >Don't they go all limp when you do that? :-)
> >>
> >> All depends on the twiglet's stamina. I don't know what your
> >> experience is Ian...
> >
> >Probably doesn't go hard at all ;-)
>
> You are a naughty, naughty, naughty boy.
He needs a really good spanking Tracy, ;-)
Ian Thomas
Sarah has my support and has gained an extra fan in the shape of my
wife. She had a good race at Brands and gave us somebody to cheer for.
Mike made my daughter and I welcome in Sarah's pit and I am just sad
that I could not stay in the company of the team and the RASF1ers who
were there at the time.
It would be sad to see the link between RASF1 and Sarah severed but I
totally understand Mike's views.
It's a pity there are people who are more willing to shoot people down
than to give their support.
Good luck Sarah, see you at Silverstone. :-)
niko Solitander
Well, I can understand that Mr Magan is a bit cynical and has a rather
angry tone in his writing after all the things Sarah has to withstand
from non-fans. But I must say that refering to half the current F1 grid
as "nancy boys"? It doesn't really do the trick for me, and it takes
away much credibility in my eyes. I'm not going to trash what he wrote
in anyway, he made good sense at places.
But I will still cheer her on, although I thought about it twice after
reading what he wrote.
I was left with a feeling of confusion, but hey, that's just me.
niko
Nikodemus Solitander
e-mail:niko.so...@pp.inet.fi
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Lucy Laws
Sarah Kavanagh Sports <@tinet.ie> wrote in article
<6k19q8$ld...@kirk.tinet.ie>...
>
> Dear Rasf1,
>
-snip-
That was a totally understandable defense of Sarah and what she is trying
to achieve. I sincerely hope that rasf1 can continue to support her but I
will understand if the relationship is severed.
It certainly won't stop me going to the races though - many of us had (and
still have) great pleasure in supporting and following Sarah's progress.
Long may it continue ;-)
See you at Thruxton (if not Silverstone) and thankyou Mike/Sarah for giving
us the opportunity to get involved and not just spout off a load of
ill-informed bollocks about racing all the time!
Lucy
<still no sig!>
Mark J. Frusciante
Ian Thomas <thoma...@jpmorgan.com> wrote:
->Sarah has my support and has gained an extra fan in the shape of my
->wife.
Which begs the question: What's the shape of your wife ?
("Pictures, they'll want pictures...")
Mark J. Frusciante
niko Solitander <Pade...@personal.eunet.fi> wrote:
->Well, I can understand that Mr Magan is a bit cynical and has a rather
->angry tone in his writing after all the things Sarah has to withstand
->from non-fans. But I must say that refering to half the current F1 grid
->as "nancy boys"? It doesn't really do the trick for me, and it takes
->away much credibility in my eyes. I'm not going to trash what he wrote
->in anyway, he made good sense at places.
Not exactly Dale Carnegie...
->But I will still cheer her on, although I thought about it twice after
->reading what he wrote.
-> I was left with a feeling of confusion, but hey, that's just me.
The worst PR I've ever read: Who's in charge over there, Al Haig ?
Sarah Kavanagh Sports
niko Solitander wrote in message <3564D7...@personal.eunet.fi>...
>Well, I can understand that Mr Magan is a bit cynical and has a rather
>angry tone in his writing after all the things Sarah has to withstand
>from non-fans. But I must say that refering to half the current F1 grid
>as "nancy boys"? It doesn't really do the trick for me, and it takes
>away much credibility in my eyes. I'm not going to trash what he wrote
>in anyway, he made good sense at places.
>But I will still cheer her on, although I thought about it twice after
>reading what he wrote.
> I was left with a feeling of confusion, but hey, that's just me.
>
It is perhaps the Irish in me that makes me use expressions like this! Given
my defence of Sarah driving her BOSS car you can easily imagine me defending
any F1 driver also, including the less than gifted. The context was in
comparison with Tony Worswick who's a big hairy lad, a 'mans man' and
compared to our current crop of svelte drivers he looks like Grizzly Adams
and they look like hairdressers.
But it was only a joke..really
Mike
Thomas Gmuer
"Sarah Kavanagh Sports" <@tinet.ie> wrote:
> Dear Rasf1,
>
> I have been reading the various posts over the last few days and would like
> to address some of the points raised .
It's about time!
I am not commenting on McGoldricks dumb comments or the race at
Mondello. But I have some problems with your (Mike Magan not Sarah) post
and your behaviour in general:
> Because of this she has had invites from 5 teams to drive for them.
This sounds like the usual bullshit Huub Rothengatter tells about Jos.
The result is the same, both have no seat in a professional
championship. There is absolutely no excuse for not driving in Japan,
especially when there have been offers.
Altough BOSS drivers certainly are not bad, the BOSS series is not - and
never will - be anything else than a hobby series for elderly race cars.
Everything else is wishful thinking.
> Clearly the way to the top in F1 is to drive an F1 car?
No, exactly 0% of the current line-up have driven a F1 car in a race
before they have been hired by a team. Instead they *have been* in
series like F3, F3000 or FNippon.
> In my opinion Sarah Kavanagh has a more than good shot of making the grade
> in F1.
I myself would prefer if your thinking would be something like "making
the grade in a lower formula and then we look out for F1". But hearing
you talk about F1 everytime, and seeing that she never competed a full
season anywhere shows me that something stinks.
> I am sorry to say that I am not going to bother showing Sarah the post-race
> posts from the group. I have a very happy and confident driver at this point
> and she doesn't need the brain damage from shite like this.
You maybe should, and maybe show her your own post you sent in "her"
name. It would maybe open her eyes a bit about you.
> If rasf1 were a real commercial sponsor of Sarah's I would be telling them
> that it was good while it lasted but clearly it's time we went our separate
> ways.
Again, you could be from the Verstappen-Clan. Critics are most definetly
not welcomed, nor is any serious discussion possible about it.
> I'm in the racing business not the talking business and there's work to be
> done.
You might be in that business, but your success so far show that you'd
better start selling Hoovers. It seems that most of the sponsorship
deals have not been anything than an eyewash. The disappointed hopes of
fans (at rasf1 and maybe elsewhere) is another topic you should think
about. How many promises have been broken so far? How many announced
races been cancelled? How many T-Shirts delivered?
And if you would be as good in that business as you think, you would at
least have got the most crucial thing right. But the Car is still not
ready to race!
And you, Mike, as Sarah's Manager and friend are responsible for it.
Sarah Kavanagh Sports
Thomas Gmuer wrote in message <1d9e2zc.19qhmuuskve2wN@[195.120.199.250]>...
>"Sarah Kavanagh Sports" <@tinet.ie> wrote:
>
>> Dear Rasf1,
>>
>> I have been reading the various posts over the last few days and would
like
>> to address some of the points raised .
>
>It's about time!
>
>I am not commenting on McGoldricks dumb comments or the race at
>Mondello. But I have some problems with your (Mike Magan not Sarah) post
>and your behaviour in general:
>
>> Because of this she has had invites from 5 teams to drive for them.
>
>This sounds like the usual bullshit Huub Rothengatter tells about Jos.
>The result is the same, both have no seat in a professional
>championship. There is absolutely no excuse for not driving in Japan,
>especially when there have been offers.
I explained this I thought more than adequately, but I'll have another go.
To race in japan you still have to have a lot of money, free drive or
otherwise. This amounts to the same as you need to do a BOSS race. Sarah is
neither japanese nor rich and therefore her sponsors are always going to be
either English or Irish. those sponsors are not particularly interested in
japan or the benefit of sarah racing there.
Therefore it's nigh on impossible to raise funds to race in a championship
on the other side of the world without your own bankroller sponsor, japanese
sponsors or a rich daddy. So that's our excuse and unless you're in a
position to pay Sarah's expenses to race in japan and have offered to do so
you have no business criticising anyone for not being there.
>
>Altough BOSS drivers certainly are not bad, the BOSS series is not - and
>never will - be anything else than a hobby series for elderly race cars.
>Everything else is wishful thinking.
Elderly or not, mileage in the car is the key to success. It does not matter
that someone else is in it for a hobby or not. If Sarah gets miles and
experience under her belt on her own in a field - then it's worth doing.
>
>> Clearly the way to the top in F1 is to drive an F1 car?
>
>No, exactly 0% of the current line-up have driven a F1 car in a race
>before they have been hired by a team. Instead they *have been* in
>series like F3, F3000 or FNippon.
>
It's the first-timers that make history. There have never been comtemporary
F1 cars ready to go before the BOSS. If it were not for people like you
Sarah would not have to take the step of having experience in an F1 car to
be certain she can perform when the opportunity arises. Because you and
those like you will be waiting for her to fail with glee, and because she is
a woman, she can't afford to fail when the opportunity arises. Is that a
fair situation?
>> In my opinion Sarah Kavanagh has a more than good shot of making the
grade
>> in F1.
>
>I myself would prefer if your thinking would be something like "making
>the grade in a lower formula and then we look out for F1". But hearing
>you talk about F1 everytime, and seeing that she never competed a full
>season anywhere shows me that something stinks.
>
Such is modern racing. Any formula racing these days has to have a place in
relation to F1, the public (as evidenced by the lack of a
rec.autos.sport.f3000 newsgroup) is not interested in anything else. Every
driver from F.Ford upwards has to sell themselves on an ambition to get into
F1. These days the budget for vauxhall Junior is more than companies are
willing to pay for zero spectacle (compared to F1), zero TV and zero public
interest. Ok there's some but not £130K's worth.
>> I am sorry to say that I am not going to bother showing Sarah the
post-race
>> posts from the group. I have a very happy and confident driver at this
point
>> and she doesn't need the brain damage from shite like this.
>
>You maybe should, and maybe show her your own post you sent in "her"
>name. It would maybe open her eyes a bit about you.
First of all it was not in her name, and secondly she would be very
disapointed if I did not defend her exactly as I have.
>
>> If rasf1 were a real commercial sponsor of Sarah's I would be telling
them
>> that it was good while it lasted but clearly it's time we went our
separate
>> ways.
>
>Again, you could be from the Verstappen-Clan. Critics are most definetly
>not welcomed, nor is any serious discussion possible about it.
Look, Sarah is critiqued every day of the week. That does not mean we have
to run around tying ourselves in knots about it. Does it help ...no. Is it
constructive...no. If it were constructive you've got our full attention and
a guarantee that it would be acted on.
I would also like to point out that your personal assault is not what I
would call serious discussion.
>
>> I'm in the racing business not the talking business and there's work to
be
>> done.
>
>You might be in that business, but your success so far show that you'd
>better start selling Hoovers. It seems that most of the sponsorship
>deals have not been anything than an eyewash. The disappointed hopes of
>fans (at rasf1 and maybe elsewhere) is another topic you should think
>about. How many promises have been broken so far? How many announced
>races been cancelled? How many T-Shirts delivered?
I'm not sure what you mean by this. I don't think that there are many people
in rasf1 who at this point believe that this operation survives on a wing
and a prayer, and cancelled races are one of the handicaps of not having a
rich Dad. As for T-shirts, well I thought that people were happy enough to
go along with the flow and wait for new ones to be produced, and I admit to
not giving them our full attention.
Have you any idea at all how much money racing costs? Have you any idea that
it all has to be raised, every penny of it? I don't care how much you earn
Thomas, but I can guarantee that we have spent more on gearboxes this year
than you earn in a year. If I am wrong then it's because you have a big
inheritance. Eyewash does not make the wheels go round and even you will
have to admit that they've been going around pretty well this year.
>
>And if you would be as good in that business as you think, you would at
>least have got the most crucial thing right. But the Car is still not
>ready to race!
Big deal, I don't see you offering your services to help. What gives you the
right to rant on about this? Sarah has no full time staff. I and 3 others
work when we can to help her and if what we achieve is less than perfect
then so be it. Sod off and get on Frank Williams case and ask him a few
questions about HIS car, you have just as much right.
>
>And you, Mike, as Sarah's Manager and friend are responsible for it.
Yea, because I have failed to find half a million pounds for her this year
to appease you. Until I get your offer of spending 2-3 days per week working
for Sarah or another driver free of charge raising their sponsorship with
success, I do not consider you qualified to comment. I am not Sarah's
manager, I am her friend and helper and what I am responsible for is the
fact that she is out racing at all.
Mike Magan
Jacques Steiner
>I have been reading the various posts over the last few days and would like
>to address some of the points raised .
I too have read them, and in the interest of nipping the bud of
incipient censorship, as well as in reaction to the extreme
belligerence of your post, I am responding. It seems from the
evidence of the past few days that any criticism or even rational
discussion on the topic of the endeavors of Sarah Kavanagh is to
be publicly reviled at every turn and even censored where
possible through misquotation and pointy-fingered black-listing.
This newsgroup is starting to remind me of the McCarthy hearings.
First, I will say that I have never posted a word of support for
Ms. Kavanagh, nor a word of critique. I do not intend to do so
until I have had the opportunity of seeing her race on more than
one occasion. Perhaps not even then. I am not in the habit of
judging drivers from the stands, far less from television. It is
my fervent hope however, that Ms. Kavanagh _will_ make it to
Formula One if she truly has what it takes to be one of the best
drivers in the world. I hope this for all drivers, however,
whatever their sex, nationality, religion, Vietnam-Veteren
status, etc. It seems to me that this should be the sentiment of
every spectator who loves the sport. Do not take this post as in
any way being an attempt to discourage or belittle Ms. Kavanagh.
I do not wish in any way to defend any particular posts or
posters, but I do feel it necessary to speak out against the
budding tendency to automatically heap ridicule upon any poster
so gauche as to question the Party Line.
Further, I am quite annoyed by the patronizing and bigoted tone
of this particular post, which seems to me a less than perfect
example of thinking before typing, not to mention a poor
reflection on "Sarah Kavanagh Sports," the first two words of
which title one hopes had little to do with the judgement of the
poster.
>Clearly the post requiring most attention was <JS's snip> who was
>knowledgeable enough to assert that:
Here on Usenet, we consider it fair game to snipe at each other's
opinions, but you shouldn't need to be told that it is
_extremely_ unwise of an official representative of Ms. Kavanagh
to single out an individual for posting what is, after all, his
own opinion.
>Well we all know that the Tyrrell overtook under yellows and that is that.
If I am not mistaken, the poster in question retracted this
accusation after being corrected.
>Most of the current F1 drivers save for Irvine, Schumacher and Hakkinen
>would be too scared to drive around a circuit like Mondello Park which is
>unsuitable and dangerous for an F1 car in all respects. 'Safety' would be
>the cited reason but 'scared' would be the real one.
Seeing that Formula One drivers (Senna included) were not afraid
to drive '94-spec cars at Imola after Roland Ratzenburger's
death, I find your assertion here highly dubious.
>In my opinion a guy like Tony (as an example) not only deserves major credit
>for his achievements but has more talent in his arse than half the current
>F1 grid of spoiled nancy boys.
Calling the Formula One grid spoiled nancy boys hardly does you
credit, nor does it do credit to your driver.
>I despair when I read rasf1 slagging off the BOSS as something like 'not
>real racing'. Forgive me but you are being media led. I guarantee you that
>if we put Juan Pablo Montoya, Ricardo Zonta and Gonzalo Rodrigues in a race
>suddenly Autosport would move the reports to the front and you would be
>reading articles like ' BOSS F1 'B' - the way to the top'. At this point the
>BOSS would be more in vogue and 'voila' suddenly it's great.
If Juan Pablo Montoya and Ricardo Zonta moved to BOSS along with
all the others, you would have F3000 budgets and drivers in used
F1 and F3000 cars. West Competition would try to price everyone
else out of the paddock. Soheil Ayari would be very fast in
qualifying and practice but would crash the Durango car out on
lap five. One presumes the drivers currently running in BOSS
would find somewhere else to run.
But it might be useful to remember that JP Montoya and R Zonta
are _not_ in BOSS right now. So what was your point?
>Clearly the way to the top in F1 is to drive an F1 car?
No one else seems to have thought so. That's not to say it can't
be done. More power to your driver if she can, but . . .
>Is it not obvious
>that with the current growth of the BOSS series it is only a matter of time
>before more drivers cotton on the what we are trying to achieve with Sarah
>and come looking for F1 car experience?
. . . are rasf1 posters to be persecuted for doubting?
>The underlying
>tone from <JS's snip - same name as last time> is of resentment over this, what he needs to know is
>that he couldn't possibly resent it any more than we do, it is the only
>thing that goes towards destroying an otherwise brilliant sport.
Again, it is _extremely_ unwise for an official representative of
your driver to single out an individual poster for abuse,
especially of the speculative "he must just be jealous" sort.
>But if you can't get your driver out of bed in the morning, or they turn up
>to sponsors meetings unshaven and grubby, or can't help gettting sucked into
>a drinks party the night before a race - you're on to nothing, a waste of
>time for all.
And what should we say of drivers whose promoters slag off all
and sundry in a fit of pique?
>Fortunately people in F1 today know exactly what Sarah is achieving and I
>feel aggrieved at having to spell this out to members of the group who
>profess to have in depth knowledge of the sport and yet have none other than
>a blinkered view of what they think they know about F1.
You do not _have_ to spell out anything. You choose to. And you
choose to do so to people whose opinions you have no means of
judging. At least one poster with considerable experience both as
a racer and a manufacturer has expressed similar opinions as to
the competitiveness of the BOSS series as those that you
criticize above.
>I read with boredom the posts on that whole topic on spatial awareness. Of
>course this is the second time around for those reading the posts last year.
>I still have all the posts of the original 'women in F1' thread.
Funny. You don't sound bored. I have no interest in defending any
theories regarding the relative
physical/mental/emotinal/hormonal/dietary/etc. performance of men
and women, since I have neither the experience nor the data to
tackle the subject. I am willing to recognize however that the
originator of the subject in question did present reasoning and
circumstantial evidence for his comment which was not even spoken
to, much less answered, by any of his critics. If you have an
argument with the man's thesis, speak to it. It's also worth
noting that the same poster acknowledged that extreme cases
cannot be judged by the norm.
>I am delighted that so many people jump to Sarah's defence. To be fair she
>doesn't deserve the big critique she has been getting from some in the
>group.
This group is in the habit of critiquing the best drivers in the
world . . .
>She's a nice kid
. . . some of whom are nice (and some not) . . .
>who works very hard
. . . all of whom work very hard . . .
>and suffers at the hands of
>begrudgers unneccessarily.
. . .and all of whom suffer unnecessarily at the hands of
begrudgers. It sounds as though Ms. Kavanagh is merely feeling a
(very) weak version of what she would face in F1, whatever her
sex, color, or creed.
><JS's snip - the same name three times, sheesh> is fairly typical of some of the
>Irish Motor racing crowd full shite and 'I beat her 5 times in F. Opel', 'I
>used to be quicker than her in karting' and of course the latest 'the race
>was fixed for Sarah' and so on. Thankfully they're a dying breed and if <JS's snip - fourth time the charm?>
>has any sense he'll get off the boat before it sinks and he's the only one
>left on board.
Do you assume that all critics of your driver are jealous of
her/you? Do you expect nothing but fawning praise for one whom
you admit is but a fledgling driver?
>I am sorry to say that I am not going to bother showing Sarah the post-race
>posts from the group.
If she makes it to F1 and gets slagged off in Bild, will you
refuse to let her walk down a street in Germany for fear she will
see a press agent? Please don't take this group to task for
opinions (for and against your driver) far better informed than
you will read in the tabloids, even if most of them (but only the
ones you disagree with, perhaps?) are not up to your exalted
standards.
>I have a very happy and confident driver at this point
More power to her. No one here wants her to fail if she really
has what it takes.
>I don't see a
>queue of drivers and teams wanting to welcome the members of the group into
>their operation with open arms or inviting them to their hospitality etc.
I don't see a whole queue of rasf1ers waiting to welcome your
belligerence with open arms or inviting you to patronize them
either, but then I don't live in Britain and haven't had the
choice of whether or not to attend your races.
>Don't think we're in it for the money either, I can't remember when the last
>donation came in and given the cynicism of so many of the members I won't be
>bothering to ask.
Please don't. Given the discourtesy of your post, I think it
would be unwise.
>If rasf1 were a real commercial sponsor of Sarah's I would be telling them
>that it was good while it lasted but clearly it's time we went our separate
>ways. It appears that support for Sarah is 50/50 and it may well be time to
>forget about it as a concept, and change it to an individual basis. This is
>something that the group can decide for itself, I really couldn't care less,
>I'm in the racing business not the talking business and there's work to be
>done.
You should understand that the group rasf1 does not exist as a
single entity. The lurking to posting ratio is enormous (and
unknown), and such is the number of regular posters on this group
that only a relatively small portion of them has ever been
involved in the sponsorship program anyway. If you wish to
alienate your benefactors solely because the thought hadn't
crossed your mind before that they might not be representative of
the entire newsgroup, that is entirely your choice. The group can
decide nothing for itself. It never did decide to support Sarah
K. Some of the members of the group did. Am I alone in thinking
that you might owe them some gratitude?
>This is something that cropped up before and we were convinced that it was
>only a minority and to continue, I really don't see why. As a group rasf1 is
>not behind Sarah while certainly some of it's members are, it is those
>members we should be having the relationship with and then we wouldn't have
>to deal with the crap that those siitting on the fence come out with.
Are you really in the position of having so many complete
strangers walk up to you and offer you money (however little it
may be) that you feel comfortable slagging off an entire
newsgroup? If so, you are the only racing team I've ever heard of
in that enviable position. The only situation that even comes
close, in my experience, is the ras.nascar sponsorship program,
which has run for a lot longer than the rasf1 Sarah K. gig has.
And please tell us, do you expect us to stop expressing our
opinions if you pack up camp and leave? Or will you simply bury
your head in the sand and pretend we don't exist.
>I am
>fed up with reading the negative posts, fed up of the Nordic racing team
>that HAS to change the subject in the middle of a positive thread on Sarah,
If you are referring to Doc Knutsen of Cheek Racing Cars, kindly
go soak your head.
>fed up of 'she should drive touring cars', 'BOSS is crap', faxing our email
>newletter to F1 teams, I could go on, and even better I could quote 100's of
>insults that nobody could avoid taking personally, all focused on Sarah, a
>racing driver trying harder than most who has never done anyone harm.
I could quote people on this new group saying that Senna
committed suicide, that Jacques Villeneuve should be killed, that
any number of drivers are Nazis, homosexuals (not that there's
anything wrong with _that_!), or even (shock! horror!) spoiled
nancy boys. Free speech is often ugly; often you get what you pay
for. If you seek out a relationship with an open forum, as you
have, you should be prepared for what gets bared. If you were
attempting to defend yourself instead of someone else, I would be
tempted to tell you, "What goes around, comes around."
>Being involved with Sarah was an oportunity to get the newsgroup as close as
>possible to actually doing it, rather than just taking about it all the
>time. It brought members of the group together in bars and at circuits, it
>showed that many in the group were prepared to back a chance to make
>history, it gave Sarah moral and financial support at times when £20 was the
>difference between eating and not. It was a good thing.
The members of the group who benefited would seem to be those who
supported you financially and morally. Why are you griping at
them? As to the rest, what claim do you have on them?
>We thought that the Jordan would excite the group, but instead all it did
>was invite a slagging for not having it ready and demands for explanations,
>we thought the group might help bridge some of the gap in the finances but
>instead it sits on the fence waiting with smug journalist-like expressions
>all over it.
Is it now illegal to be curious as to the delay of a promised
piece of machinery? We are mostly petrolheads here, you know.
Many of us are awaiting the latest evolutions of our favorite F1
cars with impatience. Is this a sin against Ferrari, Prost,
Williams, etc.? Where can we confess?
>It's make your mind up time.
It sounds as though it's time for you to make up _your_ mind. And
if you decide to take a hike, be sure the door doesn't hit you in
the ass on the way out.
Lest anyone have read this far without getting my point, let me
reiterate that I have never posted a single criticism of Sarah
Kavanagh as a driver, nor a single word of support, and I won't
either, until and unless I have seen her in action myself.
Probably not even then. I believe that it is foolish to try to
judge a driver from the sidelines. Thus, I presume I am not
guilty of Number One in Mr. Magan's book of Cardinal Sins.
Let me conclude by repeating that my only motives in posting this
are to stop the climate of automatic vitriol that I have seen
rain upon the head of any Sarah K./Woman Driver-doubter and to
respond to Mr. Magan's officiousness in taking the innocent
readers of this great newsgroup to task. If I've burned a few
rasf1 bridges in the process, so be it. They're only built of
electrons anyway.
>Mike Magan
Jacques Steiner
Remove the .bs before replying.
Supprimez «.bs» avant de repondre.
hmmm
>Let me conclude by repeating that my only motives in posting this
>are to stop the climate of automatic vitriol that I have seen
>rain upon the head of any Sarah K./Woman Driver-doubter and to
>respond to Mr. Magan's officiousness in taking the innocent
>readers of this great newsgroup to task. If I've burned a few
>rasf1 bridges in the process, so be it. They're only built of
>electrons anyway.
>
Great post Jacques.
Roy
TimO...@ibm.netnospam
>I am sorry to say that I am not going to bother showing Sarah the post-race
>posts from the group. I have a very happy and confident driver at this point
>and she doesn't need the brain damage from shite like this. I don't see a
>queue of drivers and teams wanting to welcome the members of the group into
>their operation with open arms or inviting them to their hospitality etc.
>Don't think we're in it for the money either, I can't remember when the last
>donation came in and given the cynicism of so many of the members I won't be
>bothering to ask.
>
>If rasf1 were a real commercial sponsor of Sarah's I would be telling them
>that it was good while it lasted but clearly it's time we went our separate
>ways. It appears that support for Sarah is 50/50 and it may well be time to
>forget about it as a concept, and change it to an individual basis. This is
>something that the group can decide for itself, I really couldn't care less,
>I'm in the racing business not the talking business and there's work to be
>done.
>As a group rasf1 is not behind Sarah
You cannot expect rasf1 as a group to be behind Sarah and to
support her. You have to remember that rasf1 is a public forum
made up of many, many people. Some are active participants,
and many others just lurk. Things are always changing.
Sarah certainly has her fans and supporters in here, but there
are and always will be those who do not like her and/or what
she is trying to do, and those who are just indifferent about the
whole thing. I doubt that she is loosing any support, however.
If you want a group of people to support her, or something that
can be looked upon as a single entity, one should be formed.
Something like an Official Fan Club. A group of people that want to
follow Sarah's career and "adventure", a group that supports Sarah
financially with single or multiple donations, that maybe support her
in some other way, and those that just want to cheer her on. A group
of people who, when they do critize, give constructive critizism.
Rasf1 as a whole is and never will be such a thing.
>fed up with reading the negative posts, fed up of the Nordic racing team
>that HAS to change the subject in the middle of a positive thread on Sarah,
>fed up of 'she should drive touring cars', 'BOSS is crap', faxing our email
>newletter to F1 teams, I could go on, and even better I could quote 100's of
>insults that nobody could avoid taking personally, all focused on Sarah, a
>racing driver trying harder than most who has never done anyone harm.
On USENET, people will act in ways and say things that they would not
in real life. Still, there will always be criticism, nonsense or
constructive. There will always be those who do not like her and who
do not want her to succeed. No matter whether we are talking about a
USENET newsgroup or real life, whether she is a man or a women,
whether she is white, black, or hispanic, whether she is in F1, BOSS,
F3000, or any other series. Most drivers, whether they are in a top
series or a lower formula, whether they are Jos or Senna, will receive
criticism, no matter how invalid or valid.
>Being involved with Sarah was an oportunity to get the newsgroup as close as
>possible to actually doing it, rather than just taking about it all the
>time. It brought members of the group together in bars and at circuits, it
>showed that many in the group were prepared to back a chance to make
>history, it gave Sarah moral and financial support at times when £20 was the
>difference between eating and not. It was a good thing.
..and it can continue to be a good thing. The group, though, has to be
a group of her supporters, and not a group as in "newsgroup."
>It's make your mind up time.
Those who dislike her and her efforts will probably continue to do so,
those who are indifferent will probably continue to do so, and those
who support here will probably continue to do so.
As I said, if you want there to be a group (not as in "newsgroup")
that her fans and supporters can belong to, and which can be looked
upon as one entity, then one needs to be formed by her fans and
supporters. Something like an official fan club. A newsgroup or any
other public forum is not the right place.
Cheers,
Tim
Paul Martin
In article <35658d1e...@news.alt.net>, hmmm <ro...@iol.ie> wrote:
>Great post Jacques.
What he said.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Better men fared thus before thee"
Paul Martin, Nuffield College, Oxford, OX1 1NF [01865] (2)78965
paul....@nuffield.ox.ac.uk http://users.ox.ac.uk/~jo95017
BANNED!
Having read this, and no offence to Mr Magan, I think perhaps the services
of a professional P.R. agency should be sought. (In return for some free
advertising space and tickets to races,obviously).
dab
niko Solitander
Sarah Kavanagh Sports wrote:
> It is perhaps the Irish in me that makes me use expressions like this! <snip>
Mmmm, perhaps that, or perhaps the anger the fact that the driver you
represent seem to be the only driver outside la creme de la creme of
racing who is the object of some mystic witch hunt executed by
frustrated, male, middle-aged motorsport fans. You know better than me
the answer to why the whole post you wrote took the tone it did. To me
it sounded like somekind of prosecution against all RASF1ers. Perhaps it
sounded to me this way because I'm Finnish.
What for me is the main issue in the whole Sarah Kavanagh trashing is
the fact that Sarah Kavanagh is _not_ in F1 or CART, but still she has
to take the heat as she was right there on the top. Yes, if you can't
stand the heat get out of the kitchen, but shouldn't you be in there
first?
This is what I feel is sad, and worse, what will be next? now we're
picking on a woman who does BOSS racing and has an F1 ambition, we tell
her she shouldn't have a F1 ambition. And what's on the agenda tomorrow?
We pick and trash on a 14 year old karter who has a F1 ambition, tell
him he should forget about it because he doesn't have the talent?
Why wait for them to come to F1 when we can rate them before they are
even there? Look at your hot-shoe Wurz, who some have already seen as a
coming World Champion, he was nothing outside F1. BMX champion, being
his biggest merit. He was shite in ITC, barely mediocre at most. He was
great in F1. What I, in my infantile like naivity, would like to see, is
that we spare on the heat and trashing until we have something to judge
them from. Something real.
But maybe the logic behind giving a driver the trashing, worthy a true
F1 star, long before he/she arrives, is that if we can support a driver
outside F1 we can also give them a box on the ear before they even walk
into the kitchen.
Maybe it's just me, finding this all a bit strange, being a sorry
Finnish bastard & all, who doesn't really know that much about F1,
perhaps I haven't undertood what motorsport or RASF1 is truly about.
niko Solitander
...and yes, before someone so promptly will point out about the holy
code of usenet=everyone can say what they feel, express their innermost
thoughts, desires and hatereds, I feel they are perfectly welcome to do
so as long as they know why they are doing it.
And frankly, if the usenet code book or whatever this holy bible of
ultimate net wisdom is called, says that you don't really need a motive
for what you say or write, then I can tell you where you can stuff that
code of the rightful usenet behaviour.
Irwin Sabath
Cheap shot.
you have absolutely no basis for claiming Thomas will take pleasure in
Sarah's failure.
Totally uncalled for.
--
Irwin
t.i.n.s.t.a.a.f.l.
(Helping victims of conventional wisdom)
Irwin Sabath
jo9...@sable.ox.ac.uk (Paul Martin) wrote:
>In article <35658d1e...@news.alt.net>, hmmm <ro...@iol.ie> wrote:
>>Great post Jacques. <
Indeed.
>
>What he said.
Adam Shaikh
It seems to me that Sarah Kavanagh Sports needs to remember that this is a
public newsgroup, not a Sarah Kavanagh supporters group. She certainly gets
a lot less abuse than most of the F1 drivers - look at the vitriol posted
about drivers like Schumacher, Hill etc. It is not a condition of entry to
enter an F1 newsgroup that we all love a particular driver.
I have to say that I don't really know anything about Sarah, the only
contact is a number of posts on the newsgroup and a brief visit to her
website when I first found out about it. If she really has what it takes to
be an F1 driver, good for her. If she makes it, I will cheer her all the
way, not because she is a woman, but because she is an F1 driver who I will
have heard of from the start of her career.
I find it odd that you take such a negative and angry tone with members of
the newsgroup who dare to criticize your driver - many people will defend
their driver, but most will not do it under an official banner, they will
use their name instead. If you use an official name, then we must assume
you speak for Sarah and, judging from the number of supporters she has in
this newsgroup, she has bitten the hand that feeds her. If you are speaking
for yourself, don't drag Sarah down into your bitter and twisted world, you
are damaging her reputation enough as it is.
It would be interesting to see what your attitude would be if Pepsi were
looking at sponsoring the car and pointed out that they didn't think that
Sarah was all that great. Would you tell them to get knotted? The people
from this group who make donations should be applauded by you. I have read
many posts from Sarah supporters. Are you going to tell them they are no
longer welcome because some people on the newsgroup don't like her?
Sarah should also read negative publicity about herself. You can't wrap
someone in cotton wool to this extent without removing some of the natural
resistance that people have to this sort of thing. She is going to hear bad
things about herself anyway, so don't pretend that it isn't happening. Let
her read it and then go and prove them wrong by being a better racing driver
than they believe.
Even the simple act of not sending out t shirts sends a message of "I don't
give a shit about the fans" message. Its not your top priority? You have a
legal obligation to supply someone with something they have bought and paid
for. The fact that some people are not up in arms about it speaks volumes
for the level of support they wish to give to Sarah. Even if the tone of
your mails justified, the targets seem to be the wrong people. The
individuals who have supported you should be thanked, the ones that don't
should be won over, not slagged off. As someone else mentioned, you must be
in an astonishing position if you can afford to discard thousands of fans
and potentially thousands of pounds worth of sponsorship (who knows, one of
these F1 fans might be in a position to properly sponsor Sarah and give her
the money she needs...) by telling most of us to basically fuck off and die.
Being a person that has just finished writing a computer game that featured
heavily in several newsgroups, I found myself, and several colleagues, the
victim of several posters abuse none of which I responded to with venom and
the "you are all bastards" mentality. It's a fact of life, if you do
something, someone else will try and knock it down. The kind of post that
you write is more likely to encourage anti Sarah feelings than pro ones.
--
Adam
ad...@tdv.com
www.starshiptitanic.com
Ian Thomas
Mark J. Frusciante wrote:
>
> Ian Thomas <thoma...@jpmorgan.com> wrote:
> ->Sarah has my support and has gained an extra fan in the shape of my
> ->wife.
>
> Which begs the question: What's the shape of your wife ?
>
> ("Pictures, they'll want pictures...")
Of my wife?
'Oi, Godzilla, somebody wants a picture of you!'
Thomas Gmuer
"Sarah Kavanagh Sports" <@tinet.ie> wrote:
> I explained this I thought more than adequately, but I'll have another go.
> To race in japan you still have to have a lot of money, free drive or
> otherwise. This amounts to the same as you need to do a BOSS race. Sarah is
> neither japanese nor rich and therefore her sponsors are always going to be
> either English or Irish. those sponsors are not particularly interested in
> japan or the benefit of sarah racing there.
Looks to me like we have a general problem with understanding each
other:-) I know that Japan is not cheap or "free", but if you get the
chance to race there in a competitive team then I see absolutely no
reason why you have to bother with BOSS. Concentrate your efforts on one
thing. On the one thing that *can* help to gain respect in the world of
motorsport.
> Therefore it's nigh on impossible to raise funds to race in a championship
> on the other side of the world without your own bankroller sponsor, japanese
> sponsors or a rich daddy. So that's our excuse and unless you're in a
> position to pay Sarah's expenses to race in japan and have offered to do so
> you have no business criticising anyone for not being there.
I maybe could pay her but I wouldn't. When Lucy came up with the subject
of Sarah I have been willing to donate and help. Because I could not
find any real or serious information on the website I requested more
info by e-mail. Never got it. I can understand now why so many "real"
sponsorships never worked out.
All I hear and see is F1, F1, F1, but she is still far away from there
and her efforts should less be on dreaming of F1, but racing wherever
she can.
> Elderly or not, mileage in the car is the key to success. It does not matter
> that someone else is in it for a hobby or not. If Sarah gets miles and
> experience under her belt on her own in a field - then it's worth doing.
Another point I insisted in one of last years threads. Instead of
wasting any money in a higher series she should maybe take the money and
get her a ride in Formula Ford. I know that it is almost impossible to
get sponsorship for it, but it is cheap, she can drive and practice a
lot, she gets competitive material and she can show there that she has
what it needs to get my (or anyone elses) support.
As long as she hasn't even done one of the basics in this sport it
certainly is false to build up hopes of her, her supporters or sponsors
that she will ever reach the pinnacle.
> It's the first-timers that make history.
C'mon! She would make enough history even by going the "usual" way.
> Because you and those like you will be waiting for her to fail with glee,
> and because she is a woman, she can't afford to fail when the opportunity
> arises. Is that a fair situation?
First thanks to Irwin for defending me. I would really like to see when
Sarah or any other woman could make it. Even if just to proof some
idiots on this newsgroup or on racetracks around the world wrong.
The way she did it until now will never bring her there, no matter if
she is good or not. Your way of attracting sponsors and media interest
however, is exactly what people want to see in a Lady driver. A exotic
bimbo, a colorful extension maybe, but certainly not a serious
contender. And I would like to see her kicking asses!
> First of all it was not in her name, and secondly she would be very
> disapointed if I did not defend her exactly as I have.
If you post under the name of "Sarah Kavanagh Sports" and not your own,
it was in her name.
> Have you any idea at all how much money racing costs? Have you any idea that
> it all has to be raised, every penny of it? I don't care how much you earn
> Thomas, but I can guarantee that we have spent more on gearboxes this year
> than you earn in a year.
Again, the point is not what I earn (but thanks for worrying) or what a
gearbox for a Jordan costs. If you would take all that money (and if we
speak of my income it would be enough) you spent for gearboxes then
Sarah could easily drive a full season in F Vauxhall, the Open Fortuna
series in Spain or maybe Formula Palmer. All of those races are on
Eurosport, it would certainly please sponsors more.
> If I am wrong then it's because you have a big
> inheritance. Eyewash does not make the wheels go round and even you will
> have to admit that they've been going around pretty well this year.
I beg you pardon? What is "pretty well"? Half of the year is over and
thus far she only competed in two races!
> Big deal, I don't see you offering your services to help. What gives you the
> right to rant on about this? Sarah has no full time staff. I and 3 others
> work when we can to help her and if what we achieve is less than perfect
> then so be it. Sod off and get on Frank Williams case and ask him a few
> questions about HIS car, you have just as much right.
I did, thanks. When I met Frank Williams first, he was in position like
you. He never knew if he could afford the next meal. But the man had his
goal and he went straight in that direction. He fully deserves (and has)
my respect for what he achieved.
It is not easy to reach F1. By changing your and Sarah's direction every
other week, you'll never find it!
Paul B
In article <3565B6...@jpmorgan.com>, Ian Thomas
<thoma...@jpmorgan.com> writes
>Mark J. Frusciante wrote:
>>
>> Ian Thomas <thoma...@jpmorgan.com> wrote:
>> ->Sarah has my support and has gained an extra fan in the shape of my
>> ->wife.
>>
>> Which begs the question: What's the shape of your wife ?
>>
>> ("Pictures, they'll want pictures...")
>
>Of my wife?
>
>'Oi, Godzilla, somebody wants a picture of you!'
>
>
>:-)
>
this ng ;-)
--
Paul B
Note: reply to pa...@larkhall.co.uk if replying by Email
A complete history of F1, including drivers, cars and circuits, can be found at
http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/index1.htm
Tom Cosgrave
Thomas Gmuer wrote:
> Looks to me like we have a general problem with understanding each
> other:-) I know that Japan is not cheap or "free", but if you get the
> chance to race there in a competitive team then I see absolutely no
> reason why you have to bother with BOSS. Concentrate your efforts on one
> thing. On the one thing that *can* help to gain respect in the world of
> motorsport.
Not enough budget for a season.
Travel, accomodation, all sorts of fees plus the drive.
> I maybe could pay her but I wouldn't. When Lucy came up with the subject
> of Sarah I have been willing to donate and help. Because I could not
> find any real or serious information on the website I requested more
> info by e-mail. Never got it. I can understand now why so many "real"
> sponsorships never worked out.
The site is for PR purposes Thomas -
there was *plenty* of serious talk from Mike in rasf1 last year -
go to Dejanews and find the posts. Go to "Power Search" and find "Mike
Magan".
> All I hear and see is F1, F1, F1, but she is still far away from there
> and her efforts should less be on dreaming of F1, but racing wherever
> she can.
It's PR. It's already been said they plan on going to Formula Nippon
before they go anywhere near Fornula One. Look at Mikes posts last
year.
> Another point I insisted in one of last years threads. Instead of
> wasting any money in a higher series she should maybe take the money and
> get her a ride in Formula Ford. I know that it is almost impossible to
> get sponsorship for it, but it is cheap, she can drive and practice a
> lot, she gets competitive material and she can show there that she has
> what it needs to get my (or anyone elses) support.
F.Ford?? Thomas, having seen her race I can tell you right now she is
far, far, far beyond F.Ford.
Fighting off a fully works TyrellF1 backed 1995 Tyrell in a 1995 F3000
Reynard is no small feat, yet she accomplished it.
I was very impressed and so were the crowd watching near me.
At Brands she was all over the back of her team mates gearbox in a (more
or less) identical car.
Her overtakling manoeuver was over-ambitious, and it didn't pay off in
the end.
But who got anywhere in F1 not taking a risk??
> As long as she hasn't even done one of the basics in this sport it
> certainly is false to build up hopes of her, her supporters or sponsors
> that she will ever reach the pinnacle.
She has done the basics Thomas. F.Ford, F.Opel, British F2 and Nippon
(albeit not very successfully!).
Trust me - she can drive a high powered car - I've seen her do it, and
do it well!!!!
> > It's the first-timers that make history.
>
> C'mon! She would make enough history even by going the "usual" way.
She can't get in. You are clearly not aware of the amount of
difficulty she has trying.
I've heard and seen it myself - people in the sport screaming "stupid
fucking woman" and people
saying she is "muck". People calling her an idiot and saying she is
crap.
I have seen her myself race - she is really very good.
> The way she did it until now will never bring her there, no matter if
> she is good or not. Your way of attracting sponsors and media interest
> however, is exactly what people want to see in a Lady driver. A exotic
> bimbo, a colorful extension maybe, but certainly not a serious
> contender. And I would like to see her kicking asses!
Well she's been on national TV here, in newspapers, in magazines here.
I'd say Mike is doing a pretty okay job - but I'm not a PR expert - and
I know you aren't either!
> If you post under the name of "Sarah Kavanagh Sports" and not your own,
> it was in her name.
He's right here - change yer name Mike!!!
> Again, the point is not what I earn (but thanks for worrying) or what a
> gearbox for a Jordan costs. If you would take all that money (and if we
> speak of my income it would be enough) you spent for gearboxes then
> Sarah could easily drive a full season in F Vauxhall, the Open Fortuna
> series in Spain or maybe Formula Palmer. All of those races are on
> Eurosport, it would certainly please sponsors more.
Palmer looks like a joke so far. She is far superior to F.Vauxhall.
I don't know anythign about Fortuna.
Sarah is well able for doing F.Atlantic, Indylights (IMO),
International F3000 or Nippon.
> I beg you pardon? What is "pretty well"? Half of the year is over and
> thus far she only competed in two races!
The season started April 13th Thomas.
F1 starts in March. Nippon started about 5 weeks back.
So the first quarter of the year isn't spent racing.
> It is not easy to reach F1. By changing your and Sarah's direction every
> other week, you'll never find it!
As far as I know - they secured the Jordan last year,with the plan of
going on to Japan if possible.
I think they are doing pretty well so far Thomas.
One win in 2 races, and fastest lap both times in her class.
So they have pretty much been going in the same direction all along.
Tom
--
Tom Cosgrave
To...@teamsoft.ie.remove
All opinions expressed are mine.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like
and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
-Bilbo Baggins, The Lord of The Rings, Vol.I
Ian Thomas
Paul B wrote:
>
> In article <3565B6...@jpmorgan.com>, Ian Thomas
> <thoma...@jpmorgan.com> writes
> >Mark J. Frusciante wrote:
> >>
> >> Ian Thomas <thoma...@jpmorgan.com> wrote:
> >> ->Sarah has my support and has gained an extra fan in the shape of my
> >> ->wife.
> >>
> >> Which begs the question: What's the shape of your wife ?
> >>
> >> ("Pictures, they'll want pictures...")
> >
> >Of my wife?
> >
> >'Oi, Godzilla, somebody wants a picture of you!'
> >
> >
> >:-)
> >
> Very brave, Ian. Of course, I bet 'er indoors won't get a chance to read
> this ng ;-)
The trouble is she may meet some other posters at a BOSS race and I am
sure they would enlighten her. :-(
Tony Hughes
In article <356555A0...@teamsoft.ie.remove>, Tom Cosgrave
<t...@teamsoft.ie.remove> writes in reply to someone else:
>> Again, the point is not what I earn (but thanks for worrying) or what a
>> gearbox for a Jordan costs. If you would take all that money (and if we
>> speak of my income it would be enough) you spent for gearboxes then
>> Sarah could easily drive a full season in F Vauxhall, the Open Fortuna
>> series in Spain or maybe Formula Palmer. All of those races are on
>> Eurosport, it would certainly please sponsors more.
>
>Palmer looks like a joke so far. She is far superior to F.Vauxhall.
>I don't know anythign about Fortuna.
>Sarah is well able for doing F.Atlantic, Indylights (IMO),
>International F3000 or Nippon.
>
Tom
Firstly let me say I don't want to get involved in this discussion about
Sarah at all, but I am intrigued as to why you say that Formula Palmer
looks like a joke.
I am asking this as a relative newcomer to motorsport outside of F1,
having been interested really only in F1 before a year or so ago.
Therefore I have no knowledge of the calibre of drivers in FPA or
whether the series has the potential to be taken seriously or not. Am I
right in thinking that the FPA series winner will be given an F3000
drive? If so then surely that would put it (assuming the driver than
'makes the grade' in F3000) in the chain of formulae which ultimately
lead into F1.
Regards
--------------------------------------------------------
Tony Hughes a...@dwad.feck.demon.co.uk Sheffield UK
Remove feck from email address to reply
I'm going mad with the hunger!
--------------------------------------------------------
Tom Cosgrave
The first round was declared non championship.
The first shakedown of the car was late.
Maybe iot'll shape up in time, but so far it doesn't really look very
good!
Tony Hughes
In article <356568DF...@teamsoft.ie.remove>, Tom Cosgrave
<t...@teamsoft.ie.remove> writes
>The first round was declared non championship.
Only fair to the drivers after they had only had two days with the cars
before that.
>The first shakedown of the car was late.
It was. Doesn't make it a bad car though.
>Maybe iot'll shape up in time, but so far it doesn't really look very
>good!
Even though the race they had was non-championship, it was still a good
competitive race. I enjoyed watching it anyway and at the end of the day
thats what matters isn't it?
You still haven't said why you think its a joke in terms of the validity
of the series as a step up to other things such as f3000 and beyond- I'm
talking about the actual racing and the level of skill needed to race in
the series, Is it the performance of the cars? quality of the drivers?
what?
Thomas Gmuer
Tom Cosgrave <t...@teamsoft.ie.remove> wrote:
> Not enough budget for a season.
> Travel, accomodation, all sorts of fees plus the drive.
My point is that travelling to Japan is expensive and that is the reason
why most European drivers stay there for the whole season. The media
attention she got there last year (according to her site) could probably
been used to find local sponsors there. I have to say that I don't know
enough about how it works in Japan, but this would work in Europe or
America. Sarah posted once that it needs 600,000 to 1.5 million dollars
for a season there. If she has been offered a free ride, the travel and
fees are peanuts compared to that and can be found!
> The site is for PR purposes Thomas -
Does PR excludes serious informations? Only if you have nothing to show!
> there was *plenty* of serious talk from Mike in rasf1 last year -
> go to Dejanews and find the posts. Go to "Power Search" and find "Mike
> Magan".
Did it and the first I found was:
******
From: Mike magan <mi...@irsrace.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Babes in F1
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 20:47:41 +0000
How do you feel about a babe driving in F1? You are invited to meet a
candidate at
http://www.irsrace.demon.co.uk
******
Is that serious???
> It's PR. It's already been said they plan on going to Formula Nippon
> before they go anywhere near Fornula One. Look at Mikes posts last
> year.
I don't have to look for them. If you cannot afford it, it is just the
wrong platform to waste your time, money and hopes for failing to do it.
I believe you that she is beyond FFord, but as long as she can't make it
to a higher class...
And again, there is no proof that she really "has it" as she never
competed in *any* racing series on this planet for a full season apart
from 1995 (?) Formula Opel. All her website reports about that year is
"was expected to support the number one driver and the team's ambition".
> She has done the basics Thomas. F.Ford, F.Opel, British F2 and Nippon
> (albeit not very successfully!).
No she hasn't! She shortly stopped by in each of them jumping up and
down and left. Basics is something to me where she would stay in one
series up to the point where she mastered it!
> Trust me - she can drive a high powered car - I've seen her do it, and
> do it well!!!!
I trust you, but we both are not team owners or sponsors and she has to
convince them. I never slagged her of or even doubted her talent. All I
am saying is that she never even gets a chance to proof that she could
do it as long as she (and Mike) are continuing that way.
> Well she's been on national TV here, in newspapers, in magazines here.
> I'd say Mike is doing a pretty okay job - but I'm not a PR expert - and
> I know you aren't either!
I am not, thats right. I see and read many stuff about Verstappen and
Sarah here at rasf1 and both have devoted Fans - but no sponsors. Why
this? In Verstappens case it is his management. And I am sorry to say, I
see some parallel developments here...
> The season started April 13th Thomas.
> F1 starts in March. Nippon started about 5 weeks back.
> So the first quarter of the year isn't spent racing.
You know what I am talking of, do you? The first quarter should be spent
for fixing cars and getting sponsors, the second and third quarter
should be racing, racing and racing, while the last quarter is
party/relaxing/planning time. In a few days we have June and nothing is
done!
> I think they are doing pretty well so far Thomas.
When it comes to pure racing then I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Tom Cosgrave
Tony Hughes wrote:
<SNIP>
I'll admit to not knowing much about the sries, but if the shakedowns
are late and the first round is declared non-championship, it doesn't
look very good.
I think maybe the organization is a bit awry tight now??
Like I say, it will probablt change and improve, but right now it
doesn't look like any great shakes.
Tom Cosgrave
Thomas Gmuer wrote:
>If she has been offered a free ride, the travel and
> fees are peanuts compared to that and can be found!
I don't think it was a freebie - they said if she had the money they
would take her.
> Is that serious???
You leave out the rest of the posts Thomas!
> I don't have to look for them. If you cannot afford it, it is just the
> wrong platform to waste your time, money and hopes for failing to do it.
> I believe you that she is beyond FFord, but as long as she can't make it
> to a higher class...
IN Nippon, her car was shite. Yet she finished a race, against all
expectations.
The fact she got to Nippon at all, would indicate to me that something
was being done right!
> And again, there is no proof that she really "has it" as she never
> competed in *any* racing series on this planet for a full season apart
> from 1995 (?) Formula Opel. All her website reports about that year is
> "was expected to support the number one driver and the team's ambition".
After seeing her race, I think she "has it".
> No she hasn't! She shortly stopped by in each of them jumping up and
> down and left. Basics is something to me where she would stay in one
> series up to the point where she mastered it!
She seems to have mastered her Reynard okay Thomas,
who cares now about what happened a couple of years back??
So she's going against the traditional way - big deal!!!
> I am not, thats right. I see and read many stuff about Verstappen and
> Sarah here at rasf1 and both have devoted Fans - but no sponsors. Why
> this? In Verstappens case it is his management. And I am sorry to say, I
> see some parallel developments here...
I don't. sarah is more talented IMHO :-)
He went up to F3 and then F1 by the way - no Nippon or F3000 for him!
> You know what I am talking of, do you? The first quarter should be spent
> for fixing cars and getting sponsors, the second and third quarter
> should be racing, racing and racing, while the last quarter is
> party/relaxing/planning time. In a few days we have June and nothing is
> done!
They accquired sponsorship Thomas - look at the sites frontpage.
Not as much as they might have liked, but they tried!!!
> When it comes to pure racing then I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Thankfully, we agree on something :-)
So if she can win in a Reynard, surely it doesn't matter about before?
Only about what comes next?
Irwin Sabath
Ian Thomas <thoma...@jpmorgan.com> wrote:
>Mark J. Frusciante wrote:
>>
>> Ian Thomas <thoma...@jpmorgan.com> wrote:
>> ->Sarah has my support and has gained an extra fan in the shape of my
>> ->wife.
>>
>> Which begs the question: What's the shape of your wife ?
>>
>> ("Pictures, they'll want pictures...")
>
>Of my wife?
>
>'Oi, Godzilla, somebody wants a picture of you!'<
Be cautious there, buddy.
"Size Matters," according to the Godzilla promos here.
No mention of quality
Thomas Gmuer
Tom Cosgrave <t...@teamsoft.ie.remove> wrote:
> I don't think it was a freebie - they said if she had the money they
> would take her.
As I understood Mike it was free for her to drive, but she had to pay
her expenses. I can be wrong with that one. But he also wrote "...which
was too early for us to commit to while getting the BOSS going." And
that is my concern. They put so many efforts in a hobbyist series and
don't commit themself to professional racing. I know of a dozen drivers
who would do everything to take such an opportunity!
> You leave out the rest of the posts Thomas!
To be honest I crawled through a few hundred posts and found mostly
bullshit. Not from Mike in particular, but also a lot of dumb replys. I
don't have to tell you that:-)
But the attitude of the mail I re-posted is bad enough! And that from
someone who calls himself her friend.
> IN Nippon, her car was shite. Yet she finished a race, against all
> expectations.
> The fact she got to Nippon at all, would indicate to me that something
> was being done right!
If your goal is to get a lousy and uncompetitive car, just to add
another series to your C.V. then it has been done right. If this have
been an attempt to attract sponsors and secure her a *real* ride, then
we both know the result. Unfortunately!
> After seeing her race, I think she "has it".
Yes, and you are not getting tired to tell us:-)
From all the stuff I've seen here from so many people I respect, you
must be right. But she still has to proof it in the real world.
> She seems to have mastered her Reynard okay Thomas,
> who cares now about what happened a couple of years back??
> So she's going against the traditional way - big deal!!!
So did Jos and Ralf. They came too early into the big game, without
knowing the rules and without the necessary experience. Both failed, and
we have to see wether Trulli can make it. There is absolutely nothing
that can match true race experience. And if you cannot afford it, then
get it in FFord, but get it!
> I don't. sarah is more talented IMHO :-)
> He went up to F3 and then F1 by the way - no Nippon or F3000 for him!
Joke, isn't it, Tom? I respect your enthusiasm, but you can't call her 3
(?) outings and one race finish in a two year old car "F Nippon
experience"...
> They accquired sponsorship Thomas - look at the sites frontpage.
> Not as much as they might have liked, but they tried!!!
I am just wondering why all the big deals have fallen through? But when
sponsor request or enquiries have been handled in the same way as my
request, or the T-Shirt orders, then it is no surprise to me.
> So if she can win in a Reynard, surely it doesn't matter about before?
> Only about what comes next?
You are infected by the Sarah virus:-) Don't start talking about "next",
first do the "here and now" properly! One win in her class is nice, but
in 8 days there is the next race...
Mark J. Frusciante
ins...@airmail.net (Irwin Sabath) wrote:
->"Sarah Kavanagh Sports" <@tinet.ie> wrote:
->>>> Clearly the way to the top in F1 is to drive an F1 car?
->>>
->>>No, exactly 0% of the current line-up have driven a F1 car in a race
->>>before they have been hired by a team. Instead they *have been* in
->>>series like F3, F3000 or FNippon.
I simply don't know: How many drivers *have* gone from BOSS to F1,
versus how many have gone from FNippon, etc., to F1 ?
Isn't the former sort of like going from vintage Can-Am racing to LeMans
?
->>It's the first-timers that make history. There have never been comtemporary
->>F1 cars ready to go before the BOSS. If it were not for people like you
->>Sarah would not have to take the step of having experience in an F1 car to
->>be certain she can perform when the opportunity arises.<
Huh ?
We are somehow preventing someone from taking one of five proffered
rides in a known development series, freebies even, and forcing that
person to instead spend their afternoons with the gentried class at
leisure, so that when Jos doesn't get the call, again, they can step in
?
I haven't even had a drink yet and that makes no sense...
->> Because you and those like you will be waiting for her to fail with glee,<
I waiting for *Jacques* to fail, with glee; thus far it's been a very
mirthfilled season.
->Cheap shot.
->you have absolutely no basis for claiming Thomas will take pleasure in
->Sarah's failure.
->Totally uncalled for.
Seems to be getting a bit Nixonian over there...
Mark
F1 Racing Page http://www.pipeline.com/~opus/racing.htm
Home of the RASF1 autobiographies.
David Greene
On Thu, 21 May 1998 18:42:45 +0200, tho...@misterbyte.italy (Thomas Gmuer)
wrote:
[snipped lots]
Thomas, I agree with just about everything you wrote.
>I myself would prefer if your thinking would be something like "making
>the grade in a lower formula and then we look out for F1". But hearing
>you talk about F1 everytime, and seeing that she never competed a full
>season anywhere shows me that something stinks.
In my opinion Sarah needs a good C.V.
Mr Magan seems to be looking for shortcuts, wasting time going round in circles
only to end up with excuses. F1 drivers not only have to prove they can drive,
they have to prove they know how to win. You have to earn the right to compete
at higher levels, and the only way to do that is to win at a lower level.
If Sarah is any bloody good, then take her to a lower Formula (Vauxhall, Ford,
Palmer) dominate it and win just about every race plus the championship.
After that then achieve the next goal.. and the next.. until her next goal is
winning an F1 race. Let every achievement be a spring board to the next one,
its never easy, but its the only way. There are no shortcuts only differing
speeds of progression.
Getting sponsership is the hardest thing, but its even harder when you can't
show results and demonstrate you can get the job done.
Sorry for my rant, but I would like to see Sarah reach F1..
Tom Cosgrave
Thomas Gmuer wrote:
>One win in her class is nice, but
> in 8 days there is the next race...
That, to me is what I meant as "next" :-)
I'm standing by Sarah - I think she can go to Nippon.
Mark J. Frusciante
Ian Thomas <thoma...@jpmorgan.com> wrote:
->Mark J. Frusciante wrote:
->> Ian Thomas <thoma...@jpmorgan.com> wrote:
->> ->Sarah has my support and has gained an extra fan in the shape of my wife.
->> Which begs the question: What's the shape of your wife ?
->> ("Pictures, they'll want pictures...")
->
->Of my wife?
->'Oi, Godzilla, somebody wants a picture of you!'
Couch *that* comfortable, is it?
BANNED!
Ian Thomas wrote in message <3565C9...@jpmorgan.com>...
>> >
>> >'Oi, Godzilla, somebody wants a picture of you!'
, I bet 'er indoors won't get a chance to read
>> this ng ;-)
>
>The trouble is she may meet some other posters at a BOSS race and I am
>sure they would enlighten her. :-(
Those that don't FWD the offending post to her direct!
dab
still smarting...
Sarah Kavanagh Sports
Dear rasf1,
A few things I would like to add in response to some of the various posts.
But first - we are skipping Silverstone to concentrate on the Jordan. So
there will not be a Sarah racing there.
First and foremost is the fact the my posts are sent from Sarah Kavanagh
Sports because I have been using a new Outlook '98 and after a full three
days of
looking, I still can't find where you can change the identity from. So if
someone would be so kind to tell this idiot where it is........grateful is
not the word.
Anyway I'm sure that those that know me will also know that I am capable of
argueing with all of you about anything at any time, preferably motor
racing, and one of my most joyful experiences is doing that in a pub over a
few beers. It doesn't mean that I have to fall out with anyone over it.
Nor am I overly sensitive to criticism from rasf1 about Sarah or anything we
are trying to do or achieve. Do not think that I believe what we do to be
perfect, all I know is that we are doing our best and so is Sarah. What I am
sensitive to is being lamblasted by people on circumstances they have not
bothered to check.
I'm going to try to explain the Sarah thing again and focus on why Sarah
moves up the formulae and the other things that came up.
With moving up and up you must believe me when I say that this is the worst
aspect of her career, so there's no argument there. Please believe me when I
say that we wish it was not the case.
Unfortunately it comes down to sponsorship and finding it for a woman. No
I'm not falling back on that hoary old chestnut..it's actually true. If you
accept that it's nigh on impossible to find money in the commercial world
for any driver in the formative classes, put your hand on your heart and put
yourself in the position of a marketing director. There has never really
been a successful woman driver before (in the true sense) and you are
expected to believe that this is the one that it's worth spending £50K plus
on in a championship with zero profile? And believe she's going to go all
the way? I doubt you'll get your cheque book out?
Sarah (and any other woman) has to prove herself first. She has to show
she's able for the boys at the top level before she really should be ready
for it. Then at least you can get some excitement going from the proximity
to F1 and the actual chance that she might really be up to the job.
We have raced (with success I might add) as part of the TOCA package in
Formula Ford and Vauxhall in 92 and 95, and I can assure you no sponsor
wants to see their car race at 10.30 in the morning before the crowds have
arrived and at 5.00pm when they've left after the Touring cars.
So the value that you give your sponsor has to be away from the circuit and
on TV and in print. Show me a journalist that's interested in anything other
than F1 and Touring Cars. Even Autosport these days puts the mega-important
F. Ford and V.J. series coverage on the back pages.
We have failed to raise decent money on anything other than the F3000 car
and Jordan . We did get some in '94 and '95 for Opel/Vauxhall but you are
stuck with doing a poor job for them because you can't get any sodding
coverage, and so very few renew. The are not in it to support the driver and
go all the way, because they don't believe the woman can go all the way. In
'95 Amanda whittaker and Kirsten Kolby raced Vauxhall too and they are now
gone out of the sport having tried time and time again to raise money and
gain experience in lower formulae.
Sarah however took to her step up to F3000 in British F2 like a duck to
water and in her first race after 30 laps testing was getting a 4th behind
Maasen, Rees, Rodriguez and someone else before the car went on fire. She
qualified 1.4 off pole.
She is bloody quick in these cars and if you exlored the messy circumstances
of Japan you would see that she would have no problem going quick there
either. So the steps up have been there for a reason, believe me, we wish
she could just go through it like everyone else and do the ladder properly
but it's a rich mans sport, and only they can afford to pay their way
through it.
On the subject of Japan. I said in another post that it's impossible (for
me) to raise sponsorship in japan. Sarah had no choice at the end of 1997
but to return to Ireland to seek funds. We have been moderately successful
but it does mean that we have to race somewhere that the sponsors and their
guests can go to the races and get a direct PR benefit within their market.
A free-ish drive in Japan would have cost Sarah between £60 - £80K for the
season, at least. That would be the best you can get. In the early 90's
Japan was going through the bubble economy and drivers were being paid huge
sums just to turn up. Those days are over and now almost everyone pays
something except the drivers who are in Aguri Suzuki's (Funai Super Aguri)
team and maybe one or two others. In this case (the best on offer) Sarah
would have to pay £3K per race and £3K per test plus all her own travel and
accomodation expenses. Multiply that x 10 and you have £60K plus the rest.
Now that might not be much but it's a lot to take out of Ireland on the
basis I described above. At the time those type of drives were available we
were nowhere near ready to stump up. Not that we were sitting on our arses,
but it just wasn't available just then.
Over time I'm sure you'll accept that I'm being truthful when I say that
japan is a major priority. The only chance of having money for japan is to
oversell the F3000 or the Jordan locally and spend the excess on that. So
far so good in that respect it's not going too bad.
That leads me to Sarah's future and where we intend going with it. I've done
this on the group before but many might not have seen it.
The plan is: ....Keep racing anything right now, whether F3000 or Jordan,
preferably Jordan because it raises more sponsorship and builds profile . Do
the 5 or 6 races in Nippon, hopefully beginning with the Sugo test on June
24th. Aim towards a full drive in Nippon with a top team for next season
along with some basic development work for EJ (running in boxes, testing
wings, learning as much as poss) which will happen should she go well in the
193.
So at the end of 1999 she would hopefully have had a very competitive season
in Nippon along with practical experience in an F1 car doing donkey work and
who knows from there.
If she is any way quick at all, then she is interesting enough for bernie to
make an effort to find a seat for her, preferably with a mid field team.
You must take into account that she is very unique and there are not many
women out there driving F3000 cars! Not may have achieved what she has with
such a small amount of mileage. So she has a lot going for her from a racing
point of view even though the group would not give her much credit for it.
This is finally where being a woman might be some sort of advantage, it
might take some pressure off her and maybe give her a chance where a guy
with equal form might be told to get lost. Unfair in isolation but after the
crap she's been through she'll have more than deserved the break should it
come.
Most of the criticisms have been levelled at the subject matter above but
it's important to take the financial circumstances into account. I can't
work full time on Sarah, nor can anyone else who helps her. We do it because
we are racing people who believe she can go all the way. I'm not really her
manager either, more like an assistant - there is no financial arrangement
between us nor anyone else.
I am genuinely sorry to see the end of the relationship with rasf1 but even
the majority in the group who have posted and emailed their support
acknowledge that we do not need the negativity. A simple search by any
sponsors on the web now will turn up such bad press from a few that it's
really not worth it. A few of our sponsors are in the computer business and
it will hurt believe me.
Don't think for a moment that we are not grateful, we hope to remain friends
of those in rasf1 whose contact we have come into and supported us through
thick and thin, and will be seeing these people for many years at tracks
around the world.
We will be setting up some sort of alternative club or something so if you
are interested in being a part of that as an individual maybe you could sent
me a note to mi...@sarah.org
In the meantime I hope that those who have brought about these events are
happy to have achieved something and that it has made the world a brighter
and happier place.
Best regards on my last post
Mike Magan
Thomas Gmuer
David Greene <dav...@zip.com.au> wrote:
> [snipped lots]
>
> Thomas, I agree with just about everything you wrote.
[snipped myself]
Thanks. I can only return it!
Tom Cosgrave
Hope all the bashers and cynics are happy now.
Forza Sarah.
Tom
--
Tom Cosgrave tomco...@hotmail.com
The F1 Test Site :-
http://cbr.cls.com.au/f1test/f1test.html
Support Sarah and the RASF1 car in BOSS in 1998 :-
http://www.sarah.org/sarah/rasf1
Jacques Steiner
>I am capable of
>argueing with all of you about anything at any time, preferably motor
>racing, and one of my most joyful experiences is doing that in a pub over a
>few beers. It doesn't mean that I have to fall out with anyone over it.
Arguing with your mates under the influence of alcohol is one
thing. Insulting the knowledge, opinions, and judgement of total
strangers is quite another. Especially when you lack the grace to
apologize. Hot tempers are forgiven here, but only if you say
"Please." An explanation is not an apology.
>There has never really
>been a successful woman driver before (in the true sense)
Michele Mouton. In the true sense.
>Show me a journalist that's interested in anything other
>than F1 and Touring Cars.
The journalists of Auto-Hebdo, Sport Auto, and Echappement, to
name just three publications in France. The reporters of the
mass-market television shows Turbo (M6) and Auto-Moto (TF1). Most
motor racing journalists that I have encountered have been
vitally interested in the development and deployment of new
talent. That's not to say that the casual fan bothers to read
very many of their articles about the minor series. Most small
series won't even get air time, excepting the occasional
highlight clip. Such is the nature of the sport. Rail against
that nature if it makes you feel better, but slagging off the
journalists is rather short-sighted. Have you tried cultivating
any journalists? Or is your temper too short?
>I am genuinely sorry to see the end of the relationship with rasf1
So you've made up your mind then?
>A simple search by any
>sponsors on the web now will turn up such bad press from a few that it's
>really not worth it. A few of our sponsors are in the computer business and
>it will hurt believe me.
A simple web search by the sponsors of any competitive driver in
a front-line series will turn up an astonishing array of the
manifold forms of negativity. It's only going to get worse. But
Usenet isn't the web anyway; most sponsors probably don't know
that rasf1 exists. If they did, they would no doubt be impressed
by the support of the numerous posters who include pro-Sarah
Kavanagh lines in their sig. files.
>Best regards on my last post
So you really have made up your mind? Strange that I thought
support for Sarah K. in this group was unnaturally strong under
the circumstances.
>Mike Magan
Good luck to Ms. Kavanagh on finding the sponsors and successes
she deserves, whatever they may be. May her potential sponsors
never do a Deja News search on one Mike Magan, Esq.
Jacques Steiner
Remove the .bs before replying.
Supprimez «.bs» avant de repondre.
Tom Cosgrave
Jacques Steiner <arrac...@geocities.bs.com> wrote in article
<3566026a...@news.club-internet.fr>...
>Have you tried cultivating
>any journalists?
Actually , yes he and Sarah have - Declan Quigley is a friend of Sarah and
Mike's he is the pitlane reporter for Irish F1 TV as well. he is well known
in Irish F1 circles.
> So you've made up your mind then?
Yes, after most of the Sarah supporting rasf1 told him it might be better.
I can't believe it - our newsgroup sponsoring a real racing car, and lots
of the regulars of you fuck away the opportunity. You will never have the
chance again, I'm certain.
> So you really have made up your mind? Strange that I thought
> support for Sarah K. in this group was unnaturally strong under
> the circumstances.
Some memebers are very defensive about her, I'm one.
> Good luck to Ms. Kavanagh on finding the sponsors and successes
> she deserves, whatever they may be. May her potential sponsors
> never do a Deja News search on one Mike Magan, Esq.
Go and shite - you don't even know the man. i do. he's a very nice guy and
he kills himself working for her for free. His own personal time. I'm sure
there would be lots of other things he would rather do.
You bitch about her, saying her manager is shit etc etc. Could you do it
better????
I haven't seen you making even a small financial contribution to support
sarah (You wish her luck, so I assume you support her), so do you really
have the right to complain?? At least I have thrown in what little I can,
and will throw in more.
Ty Klein
In article <6k4bk3$vb...@kirk.tinet.ie>, "Sarah Kavanagh Sports"
<@tinet.ie> wrote:
> Dear rasf1,
>
> A few things I would like to add in response to some of the various posts.
>
> But first - we are skipping Silverstone to concentrate on the Jordan. So
> there will not be a Sarah racing there.
>
(snip)
> I'm going to try to explain the Sarah thing again and focus on why Sarah
> moves up the formulae and the other things that came up.
>
> With moving up and up you must believe me when I say that this is the worst
> aspect of her career, so there's no argument there. Please believe me when I
> say that we wish it was not the case.
>
> Unfortunately it comes down to sponsorship and finding it for a woman. No
> I'm not falling back on that hoary old chestnut..it's actually true. If you
> accept that it's nigh on impossible to find money in the commercial world
> for any driver in the formative classes, put your hand on your heart and put
> yourself in the position of a marketing director.
(snip some more)
> Sarah (and any other woman) has to prove herself first. She has to show
> she's able for the boys at the top level before she really should be ready
> for it. Then at least you can get some excitement going from the proximity
> to F1 and the actual chance that she might really be up to the job.
If she really wants to prove herself why not concentrate on one
series,instead of jumping around from race to race? Put all your time into
only one series and totally dominate it,then move up from there. As it
stands now,what exactly does Sarah have to show potential sponsors?
Nothing but a few decent (if somewhat inconsistent) finishes in a
hodge-podge of different racing series.
A much better way to progress towards F1 would be to enter into a driver
development series like Barber Dodge. <http://www.skipbarber.com/pro.htm>
If she is truely as good as say,then she won't have problem dominating the
series and moving up,with much of her expenses already paid. When or if
Sarah is competitive in a series like Indy lites,toyota atlantic etc. then
she will have much less trouble finding sponsorship for F-Nippon,Cart or
F1. I believe there is also a similar program available in Canada.
> Mike Magan
--
Ty Klein
Thomas Gmuer
Tom Cosgrave <tomco...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> You bitch about her, saying her manager is shit etc etc. Could you do it
> better????
It's no big thing to have T-Shirts done for example... But we are now
reaching the point where I will leave the discussion again. Jacques made
some very good points and all he gets is dumb remarks from you. I can
understand your emotions at the moment and I am sure you have the grace
to apologize. It is simply not possible to talk about the matter here
and it wasn't in most of the earlier threads.
> I haven't seen you making even a small financial contribution to support
> sarah (You wish her luck, so I assume you support her), so do you really
> have the right to complain?? At least I have thrown in what little I can,
> and will throw in more.
As I pointed out, I am not willing to pay even a single Lire without
knowing what it will be used for. I am sure that Jacques' support and
good wishes are honest and not all the support has to be measured in
cash. I myself pay for my webserver and there is some stuff like Lucy's
BOSS ramblings or Kim Andrews brilliant post-race interviews with Sarah
along with many great pictures. At this very moment exactly 435 of "my"
visitors have jumped directly from Pitlane to www.sarah.org. This is one
kind of support and I won't change that, even after Mr Magan's personal
attacks because I still think Sarah is worth it!
Tom Cosgrave
Thomas Gmuer <tho...@misterbyte.italy> wrote in article
> It's no big thing to have T-Shirts done for example... But we are now
> reaching the point where I will leave the discussion again. Jacques made
> some very good points and all he gets is dumb remarks from you. I can
> understand your emotions at the moment and I am sure you have the grace
> to apologize. It is simply not possible to talk about the matter here
> and it wasn't in most of the earlier threads.
Yes I'm pissed half the group couldn't take a risk. Sorry if I'm sounding
grumpy.
It was cool to support a racing car, a unique opportunity, but people have
failed to realise that.
The t-shirts will get done. I don't think Mike and Sarah are in the
business of screwing people.
Why don't you bitch to Jordan GP/Mastercard about their fanclub? I have
heard numerous reports of them not delivering on time.
> As I pointed out, I am not willing to pay even a single Lire without
> knowing what it will be used for.
It will be used for gym fees for Sarah. Food, etc etc. Little things.
Jacques Steiner
On 22 May 1998 23:15:44 GMT, "Tom Cosgrave"
<tomco...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Jacques Steiner <arrac...@geocities.bs.com> wrote in article
><3566026a...@news.club-internet.fr>...
>> So you've made up your mind then?
>
>Yes, after most of the Sarah supporting rasf1 told him it might be better.
>I can't believe it - our newsgroup sponsoring a real racing car, and lots
>of the regulars of you fuck away the opportunity. You will never have the
>chance again, I'm certain.
Living outside of the British isles and having no contact with
the BOSS series, I have not elected to financially support Ms.
Kavanagh. If you refer to that as "fuck[ing] away the
opportunity," that is your prerogative. But I have never
displayed the least hostility to Ms. Kavanagh or her supporters
on this newsgroup, only to Mr. Magan, who decided to take all and
sundry to task for the (perceived) sins of the few. As to the
chance of sponsoring a real racing car, I have done so,
privately, in the past (Mexican Rally Championship) and may well
do so again in the future. Your criticism, in my case, is
unwarranted.
>> So you really have made up your mind? Strange that I thought
>> support for Sarah K. in this group was unnaturally strong under
>> the circumstances.
>
>Some memebers are very defensive about her, I'm one.
Yes, that is exactly what I meant. Sarah K. has many supporters
on this group and only the occasional detractor. So I am
surprised that so many seem to feel that she is being persecuted.
Compared to Schumacher (Nazi!!) or Villeneuve (Blond midget!!),
she is deified by this newsgroup. More power to her. I hate
seeing a driver trashed by people who don't know him or her
personally.
>> Good luck to Ms. Kavanagh on finding the sponsors and successes
>> she deserves, whatever they may be. May her potential sponsors
>> never do a Deja News search on one Mike Magan, Esq.
>
>Go and shite - you don't even know the man. i do. he's a very nice guy and
>he kills himself working for her for free. His own personal time. I'm sure
>there would be lots of other things he would rather do.
I don't need to know the man to know that the attitude that he
has exposed on this newsgroup in the past two days would do
serious damage to Ms. Kavanagh if seen by the eyes of a potential
sponsor. Surely even the most devoted supporter can see that.
>You bitch about her, saying her manager is shit etc etc.
Did I? Reread my postings. All I said was that the man was
needlessly offensive. I also pointed out the holes in a few of
the blanket statements he made. I am not one to criticize that
about which I know little.
>Could you do it
>better????
I could certainly refrain from insulting a newsgroup in the name
of the driver I represented, yes. As to the other facets of the
job, I have no comment: it was not the career I chose.
>I haven't seen you making even a small financial contribution to support
>sarah (You wish her luck, so I assume you support her), so do you really
>have the right to complain??
I have not contributed money to Ms. Kavanagh. I do not know her,
and I have never seen her race. I wish her luck as I wish luck to
all aspiring drivers, that they may reach with the least possible
hinderance the level to which their talent corresponds. I make no
comment on what that level is. If Ms. Kavanagh has the makings of
one of the world's best drivers, then I will be delighted to see
her in formula one in years hence.
Do have a right to complain when someone takes the newsgroup to
task, myself included? Certainly more right than you have to take
me to task for things I never said.
>At least I have thrown in what little I can,
>and will throw in more.
It behooves you that you give such support to your driver. I have
no quarrel with you Mr. Cosgrave. I would hope that if you reread
my posts carefully, you would have no quarrel with me.
>Tom
Regards,
Jacques Steiner
On Sat, 23 May 1998 03:08:21 +0200, tho...@misterbyte.italy
(Thomas Gmuer) wrote:
>But we are now
>reaching the point where I will leave the discussion again.
Mr. Gmuer, please don't drop out of the discussion. Little enough
gets said as it is. I have been saddened by the increasing
efforts of often well-meaning and intelligent people in this
newsgroup to make rational discourse on some subjects impossible.
I rarely post, but I guess the camel's back is broken this time.
>Jacques made
>some very good points and all he gets is dumb remarks from you.
Thank you for coming to my defense.
>It is simply not possible to talk about the matter here
>and it wasn't in most of the earlier threads.
This is my fear. But we can't just give up, can we? I don't have
much to say about the subject of this or the other threads, but
if no discussion is to be allowed, there's not much point in
having an unmoderated group, is there?
> I myself pay for my webserver and there is some stuff like Lucy's
>BOSS ramblings or Kim Andrews brilliant post-race interviews with Sarah
>along with many great pictures. At this very moment exactly 435 of "my"
>visitors have jumped directly from Pitlane to www.sarah.org. This is one
>kind of support and I won't change that, even after Mr Magan's personal
>attacks because I still think Sarah is worth it!
This is worthy of you, all the more so given the bizarreness of
Mr. Magan's attack on your support of Ms. Kavanagh.
Congratulations on having a cool head. They get pretty rare
around here sometimes.
Best regards,
Thomas Gmuer
Jacques Steiner <arrac...@geocities.bs.com> wrote:
> Mr. Gmuer, please don't drop out of the discussion.
You can call me Thomas - if you like:-)
My problem is that many people I respect on this NG, like Lucy, Kim,
Tom, Jon and more are supporting Sarah. They met her and Mike in private
and on races. They have seen her drive and they certainly know more
about her than I do. And they all are very positive about her.
I can just point out on what I think is wrong with her career and
manager (or friend?) and this may sound like I would bash Sarah as a
driver or human being.
I would really like to see her make her way into Formula 1 as a driver
and she would get every support from me if she would take it seriously.
But the least thing I'd like to see is another Giavanna Amati attempt of
a good-looking bimbo who only makes it because she's a woman and will
get a lot of attention. I don't think it would help female racers
getting the respect they deserve. And this is what I think Mike Magan is
doing with her and it can be seen and read in his posts and on almost
every page on her website. There is little talking of her as a race
driver, but as a potential marketing tool because Sarah is female.
Another things saddens me: we have lots of people on rasf1 who had (and
still have) great hopes in Sarah but get disappointed one time after the
other. They simply do not deserve this.
I wrote enough about getting the Jordan ready and even if I can say now
that I have been right (after they cancelled Silverstone) - it does
*not* make me feel good. Neither can I understand why she not simply
takes the F3000 again to keep her chances in the championship alive.
BANNED!
Tom Cosgrave wrote in message <01bd85d7$66914060>
>Go and shite - you don't even know the man. i do. he's a very nice guy and
>he kills himself working for her for free. His own personal time. I'm sure
>there would be lots of other things he would rather do.
>You bitch about her, saying her manager is shit etc etc. Could you do it
>better????
>I haven't seen you making even a small financial contribution to support
>sarah (You wish her luck, so I assume you support her), so do you really
>have the right to complain?? At least I have thrown in what little I can,
>and will throw in more.
Surely the issue here is not whether Sarah K. is competent enough to drive
in F1- as argued long and loud on the group- there are any number of
drivers in various formulae that could be *competitive*... The issue is
whether her driving in the BOSS series is a red herring with regard to her
progressing to F1. I personally feel that the money would be better
spent in F3000 or more or less *any* less eclectic racing series.
Why does this group always seem to degenerate into name-calling at the
moment?
dab
Sarah Kavanagh Sports
This is the kind of post that I can get a grip on and makes a lot of sense.
It highlights the fact that it is very difficult indeed to carry out a
discussion in writing and that although we have been at each others throats
we may actually agree in almost all respects. I made a jokey remark in reply
to Jacques that these arguments can be great fun but almost certainly better
off being face to face over a few nice drinks - but he didn't quite get the
joke.
Thomas wrote:
>My problem is that many people I respect on this NG, like Lucy, Kim,
>Tom, Jon and more are supporting Sarah. They met her and Mike in private
>and on races. They have seen her drive and they certainly know more
>about her than I do. And they all are very positive about her.
>
>I can just point out on what I think is wrong with her career and
>manager (or friend?) and this may sound like I would bash Sarah as a
>driver or human being.
>
>I would really like to see her make her way into Formula 1 as a driver
>and she would get every support from me if she would take it seriously.
>But the least thing I'd like to see is another Giavanna Amati attempt of
>a good-looking bimbo who only makes it because she's a woman and will
>get a lot of attention. I don't think it would help female racers
>getting the respect they deserve. And this is what I think Mike Magan is
>doing with her and it can be seen and read in his posts and on almost
>every page on her website.
There's probably not a lot of point in going over history, but I do have to
say in my defence that a lot of the very early posts to the group were not
made by me. We have had various people working with us over the years giving
their time to help, but in all that time I have always been the one with the
PC. And for a fact the 'Babe in F1' that you referred to was posted by a
well meaning teenage relation of Sarah's who at the time had just discovered
the net and rasf1.
There is little talking of her as a race
>driver, but as a potential marketing tool because Sarah is female.
>
I have to assure you that Sarah is very very serious about this. I have
represented other drivers and to be frank I haven't yet met another that's
got her committment. She desperately wants to be a racing driver first and a
woman second. I hope that others on the group who have met her will back me
up on this. whether it's on the physical side or doing stupid photo shoots
for sponsors, she is fully committed to anything that pushes her along and
makes her quicker in the car.
I hope that others that have met Sarah and I and read Sarah's interviews
will back me up on this - that the woman angle is detested by all of us.
What we are stuck with though is convincing people that a woman can do the
job if given the correct training like everyone else.
The web page is an entirely different proposition from rasf1. The web page
is there very much as a public front door and I have often seperated rasf1
from this where the real world of motor racing is more clearly understood.
This is why the whole tone of the rasf1 section was different entirely from
the public site, even to the point of having Jon Petersson look after the
rasf1 section completely and entirely with full control over it's contents.
This convincing is a job which has to be done. Sarah comes up against the
most regular personal and gender assaults that I have ever experienced
anyone getting and the universal opinion that a woman can't do the job has
to be changed before she will ever get the opportunity for her to prove it
so, at a lower level than F1.
Amati is an interesting point because she seems to actually have been a
useful pilot, but in recent years I have come across people who have worked
with her and almost universally they say she was not committed enough and
wouldn't do the testing or the training etc. It is also said that Denis
Nursey at Brabham at the time saw Giovanna as a cash cow on the woman
ticket, something we know will never succeed alone without track success.
Taking the female in a man's world angle is useful only for those sponsors
who have an vested interest in women and to get publicity in unusual areas.
It also serves to drive female interest in the sport to an extent which
benefits everybody and opens up sponosrship opportunities for all drivers
from consumer brands.
What we all know, and I stress that I entirely agree with you, is that that
angle has no real place in real motor racing. We all know that that a
drivers merit is based on their track performance, and that alone. If Sarah
were to burst onto the F1 scene as a test driver tomorrow, you can be
guaranteed that there would initially be major excitment on the woman
ticket, and then disappointment as people realise that she is not yet up to
the job and lose interest faster than a tourists wallet in Columbia.
We must achieve a critical mass of opinion that a woman can possibly go all
the way before it is possible to find funding to pay for the less than
glamorous steps she must then take to achieve it.
This is why EJ (for what it's worth) is helping Sarah. He wants her to know
what she's doing as a racing driver. He's absolutley dying for her to be
quick. If bernie had one wish for F1, he would probably wish for a woman
driver who can put the car in the frist three rows of the grid and finish in
the points. But we know that withoutthe speed you're ona iding to nothing.
To achieve this that woman has to find herself able to compete at the sharp
end of F.Nippon. Not BOSS, not British F3000, not GT's, it must be the real
thing. Anything that the BOSS does for Sarah is limited to getting
experience in the Jordan, something that might give her the edge if the
opportunity to drive an F1 car in anger arose.
I am pleased to say that the web page works in this regard to an extent.
Various press around the world use it as a basis for coverage of Sarah and
gives them an angle. At the level she's racing at now there's no angle. If
it were you or me racing in the BOSS we would have very little coverage.
>Another things saddens me: we have lots of people on rasf1 who had (and
>still have) great hopes in Sarah but get disappointed one time after the
>other. They simply do not deserve this.
>
Again I agree with you - it is very unfortunate. But this is real racing
warts and all. If Sarah were a well funded driver it's likely we would all
be too busy testing in Jerez to put any effort at all into rasf1 and the
relationship wouldn't have existed in the first place.
Since the group are mainly into F1 I doubt that the disappointments are that
great though. Surely Sarah is a mere folly for those that are interested? If
that is not the case, well we are truly sorry. I can assure you though, that
dealing with Sarah's disappointment when things go awry is not an easy job.
Devastation is the word I would use and it's a difficult thing to take
responsibility for.
>I wrote enough about getting the Jordan ready and even if I can say now
>that I have been right (after they cancelled Silverstone) - it does
>*not* make me feel good. Neither can I understand why she not simply
>takes the F3000 again to keep her chances in the championship alive.
>
Here's the catch again. The Reynard now needs an engine change which means
making a comittment to Nicholson McLaren of £25,000, not immediatley but if
we put in a fresh engine they want to know that the mileage on it will be
used over the season and we have to make that committment.
It seems that all the UK and Irish drivers are having the same problems,
witness Jonny Kane at the moment - and he is substantially better off than
Sarah, yet he has had to miss Monaco! Those that have the money to do what
they want from our part of the world don;t seem to have any talent - as it
was ever so.
At this point I refer to your earlier posts and you will see that we agree
yet again. We do not consider winning the F3000 section of the BOSS to be
of any use in furthering Sarah' s long term career. Expecially when we have
a Jordan that's waiting for it's engine and a series in Japan that's worth
spending money on, and quite frankly the drivers in boss in F3000 are not
much opposition. We're working very hard with a team to make a debut in
japan for the Sugo test in june.
By the time Silverstone is finished we would have spent £15,000 on the car
and the engine miles, and a further £5,000 on insurance and hospitality. So
when faced with the choice of getting that engine into the Jordan along with
a couple of the other bits we're missing or doing Silverstone in the F3000 -
there's really no competition. Not only do we think this but it also seems
to be the majority opinion from most of rasf1 as well.
But then you never know, Sarah made the decision herself but already I can
see her getting antsy and thinking about Silverstone. She will find it hard
to miss it. Don't be too surprised to see another post saying it's on again
:-).
Mike Magan ( Still can't find the Identity tag)
Tom Cosgrave
Sarah Kavanagh Sports <@tinet.ie> wrote in message
>I hope that others that have met Sarah and I and read Sarah's interviews
>will back me up on this - that the woman angle is detested by all of us.
>What we are stuck with though is convincing people that a woman can do the
>job if given the correct training like everyone else.
Absolutely. She is extremely determined to do whatever it takes to get
places.
She will go to sponsor functions, do interviews, be polite to people
annoying her at a race meet, or whatever.
In the car she is also very ruthless, completely closing down on her
teammate at Brands Hatch and totally dominating him at Mondello.
Sarah would much rather be worrying about being a racing driver than being a
girl.
>This convincing is a job which has to be done. Sarah comes up against the
>most regular personal and gender assaults that I have ever experienced
>anyone getting and the universal opinion that a woman can't do the job has
>to be changed before she will ever get the opportunity for her to prove it
>so, at a lower level than F1.
Seen it happen. At races, from people in the sport, to the crowd watching to
ex-rivals who are bitter.
>Since the group are mainly into F1 I doubt that the disappointments are
that
>great though.
They are for me, actually! :-)
>It seems that all the UK and Irish drivers are having the same problems,
>witness Jonny Kane at the moment - and he is substantially better off than
>Sarah, yet he has had to miss Monaco! Those that have the money to do what
>they want from our part of the world don;t seem to have any talent - as it
>was ever so.
Yes I saw that - looks like he has had it with Redman & Bright :-(
Good luck with the Nippon team :-)
Tell Sarah to stay cool too :-)
Tom
--
Tom Cosgrave tomco...@hotmail.com
The F1 Test Site :-
http://cbr.cls.com.au/f1test/f1test.html
Support Sarah Kavanagh in BOSS in 1998 :-
http://www.sarah.org/
Ian Thomas
She hasn't got an Email address. :-)
>
> dab
>
> still smarting...
Counting down the days yet mate?
--
<http://freespace.virgin.net/ian.thomas1> (Updated 28th April)
Ian 'Ziggy' Thomas - Stratford, London, England - The suns out ([:])
*BANNED!*
Ian Thomas wrote in message <356DE8...@jpmorgan.com>...
>>
>> dab
>>
>> still smarting...
>
>Counting down the days yet mate?
I can't count *that* high, Ian! *sigh*
dab
Ian Thomas
Funnily enough since your little incident I have thought about what I
would do if I lost my licence. I have decided that life at a slower pace
is better than public transport anyday.
I still have a blast now and again but only on roads that are camera
free. :-)
Paul B
In article <357309...@hotmail.com>, Ian Thomas
<iant...@hotmail.com> writes
>*BANNED!* wrote:
>>
>> Ian Thomas wrote in message <356DE8...@jpmorgan.com>...
>> >>
>> >> dab
>> >>
>> >> still smarting...
>> >
>> >Counting down the days yet mate?
>>
>> I can't count *that* high, Ian! *sigh*
>>
>
>Funnily enough since your little incident I have thought about what I
>would do if I lost my licence. I have decided that life at a slower pace
>is better than public transport anyday.
>
>I still have a blast now and again but only on roads that are camera
>free. :-)
>
lightspeed for any protracted period of time..... if you do, I believe
you change into a flat-cap riding a CZ, with an MGB in the garage ;-)
--
Paul B
Note: reply to pa...@larkhall.co.uk if replying by Email
No-one here gets out alive - Jim Morrison
Ian Thomas
Paul B wrote:
>
> In article <357309...@hotmail.com>, Ian Thomas
> <iant...@hotmail.com> writes
> >*BANNED!* wrote:
> >>
> >> Ian Thomas wrote in message <356DE8...@jpmorgan.com>...
> >> >>
> >> >> dab
> >> >>
> >> >> still smarting...
> >> >
> >> >Counting down the days yet mate?
> >>
> >> I can't count *that* high, Ian! *sigh*
> >>
> >
> >Funnily enough since your little incident I have thought about what I
> >would do if I lost my licence. I have decided that life at a slower pace
> >is better than public transport anyday.
> >
> >I still have a blast now and again but only on roads that are camera
> >free. :-)
> >
> I didn't think it was possible to drive a Speed Triple at less than
> lightspeed for any protracted period of time..... if you do, I believe
> you change into a flat-cap riding a CZ, with an MGB in the garage ;-)
The problem with 80mph is that everything passes you and it takes a huge
amount of self will to stop the right wrist twisting and blasting away
from everyone. :-)
*BANNED!*
Ian Thomas wrote in message <35732A...@hotmail.com>...
>Paul B wrote:
>>
>> In article <357309...@hotmail.com>, Ian Thomas
>> <iant...@hotmail.com> writes
>> >*BANNED!* wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Ian Thomas wrote in message <356DE8...@jpmorgan.com>...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> dab
>> >> >>
>> >> >> still smarting...
>> >> >
>> >> >Counting down the days yet mate?
>> >>
>> >> I can't count *that* high, Ian! *sigh*
>> >>
>> >
>> >Funnily enough since your little incident I have thought about what I
>> >would do if I lost my licence. I have decided that life at a slower pace
>> >is better than public transport anyday.
>> >
>> >I still have a blast now and again but only on roads that are camera
>> >free. :-)
>> >
>> I didn't think it was possible to drive a Speed Triple at less than
>> lightspeed for any protracted period of time..... if you do, I believe
>> you change into a flat-cap riding a CZ, with an MGB in the garage ;-)
>
>The problem with 80mph is that everything passes you and it takes a huge
>amount of self will to stop the right wrist twisting and blasting away
>from everyone. :-)
Thing is- we (bikers) know that it is safer going 15 mph quicker than the
cars, than the cars going 15 mph quicker than us!.Try telling that to the
plod-(" you were weaving in and out of the traffic, sir"). Only the
motorcycle police understand, and they are generally OK, unles you're
"taking the piss". (and of course, they can't catch you then!)
Oh- and I had an *mz* once- horrible to ride,(though strangely
torquey) but built from girders, and you just *knew* it would start, even
with ice all over it, or when it'd been in the rain all day.-and cheap as
dirt.
dab
Ian Thomas
*BANNED!* wrote:
>
> Ian Thomas wrote in message <35732A...@hotmail.com>...
> >The problem with 80mph is that everything passes you and it takes a huge
> >amount of self will to stop the right wrist twisting and blasting away
> >from everyone. :-)
>
> Thing is- we (bikers) know that it is safer going 15 mph quicker than the
> cars, than the cars going 15 mph quicker than us!.Try telling that to the
> plod-(" you were weaving in and out of the traffic, sir"). Only the
> motorcycle police understand, and they are generally OK, unles you're
> "taking the piss". (and of course, they can't catch you then!)
>
> Oh- and I had an *mz* once- horrible to ride,(though strangely
> torquey) but built from girders, and you just *knew* it would start, even
> with ice all over it, or when it'd been in the rain all day.-and cheap as
> dirt.
My new leaf only lasted until 5:00pm yesterday, 100mph blast home, sets
you up for the evening. :-)
BANNED
Ian Thomas wrote in message <35742A...@hotmail.com>...
>*BANNED!* wrote:
>>
>> Ian Thomas wrote in message <35732A...@hotmail.com>...
>> >The problem with 80mph is that everything passes you and it takes a huge
>> >amount of self will to stop the right wrist twisting and blasting away
>> >from everyone. :-)
>>
>> Thing is- we (bikers) know that it is safer going 15 mph quicker than
the
>> cars, than the cars going 15 mph quicker than us!.Try telling that to the
>> plod-(" you were weaving in and out of the traffic, sir"). Only the
>> motorcycle police understand, and they are generally OK, unles you're
>> "taking the piss". (and of course, they can't catch you then!)
>>
>> Oh- and I had an *mz* once- horrible to ride,(though strangely
>> torquey) but built from girders, and you just *knew* it would start,
even
>> with ice all over it, or when it'd been in the rain all day.-and cheap as
>> dirt.
>
>My new leaf only lasted until 5:00pm yesterday, 100mph blast home, sets
>you up for the evening. :-)
Careful, Ian- there is only room for one *banned* on this NG!
*sigh* You're all bastards. I hate you all.
dab