ELIO DE ANGELIS / AYRTON SENNA - Whats the difference??
Steve Chase
If Frank Williams and co DO get prosecuted for the manslaughter of
Ayrton Senna, then I have this question to ask: What was the difference
between Ayrtons crash in 1994 and the late Italian driver Elio de
Angelis's crash in 1986?
- Both fell victim to component failure, but in Elio's case back then
the consensus of opinion was "tuff - thats Formula One"
So how come no one from Brabham got lynched then?
What does anyone else think about this?
Charles Crosby
Steve Chase (sch...@source.co.uk) wrote:
: If Frank Williams and co DO get prosecuted for the manslaughter of
Elio de Angelis died in France (Paul Ricard), not Italy. There are few
places in the world that would handle the situation in the same way as
the Italian legal system.
Charles
Matthias Bues
Steve Chase wrote:
>
> If Frank Williams and co DO get prosecuted for the manslaughter of
> Ayrton Senna, then I have this question to ask: What was the difference
> between Ayrtons crash in 1994 and the late Italian driver Elio de
> Angelis's crash in 1986?
>
> - Both fell victim to component failure, but in Elio's case back then
> the consensus of opinion was "tuff - thats Formula One"
>
> So how come no one from Brabham got lynched then?
>
> What does anyone else think about this?
As far as I remember, Elio's live could most probably been saved if the
safety measurements around the track hadn't been as terrible as they
were (it was a test driving session at Paul Ricard, no medical service
at the track, the marshals in charge of extinguishing any fire running
around in shorts and so on...). So it took a fairly long time to get him
to any hospital; many people, lots of medecins among them, claimed that
this was the actual cause of Elio's death. Safety regulations for F1
test drives were tightened up considerably after this incident.
I think no one in the world of motor racing really thinks different
about Ayrton's accident: It was something that still can happen every
day in that business. The reason for criminal prosecution in Ayrton's
case is simply legal usus in Italy: The same happened on each letal
accident in a Grand Prix on Italian soil.
Matze
Steve Chase
Matthias Bues wrote:
>
> As far as I remember, Elio's live could most probably been saved if the
> safety measurements around the track hadn't been as terrible as they were
> (it was a test driving session at Paul Ricard, no medical service at the
> track, the marshals in charge of extinguishing any fire running around in
> shorts and so on...). So it took a fairly long time to get him to any
> hospital; many people, lots of medecins among them, claimed that this was
> the actual cause of Elio's death. Safety regulations for F1 test drives
> were tightened up considerably after this incident.
> I think no one in the world of motor racing really thinks different about
> can happen every day in that business. The reason for criminal prosecution
> in Ayrton's case is simply legal usus in Italy: The same happened on each
> letal accident in a Grand Prix on Italian soil.
>
I think the fact that Elio's life could have been saved makes that scenario worse than
Ayrtons.
As I understand it, Elio suffered only superficial injuries in the impact and died from
lack of oxygen due to the ensuing fire in his Brabham, Ayrton died from a hole in the
head...there was no way he could have survived despite the prompt attention he got from
the San Marino Marshals.
My point is that the whole situation regarding the de Angelis incident really sucked.
From extensive reading regarding his crash, I understand that marshals were seen wearing
shorts on the morning of 14th May 1986, and indeed it was left to messrs Prost and Alan
Jones to write his upturned car.
Had de Angelis received prompt medical attention within minutes of the crash, his life
may well have been saved. I think that in his case, the whole incident was far more
scandelous yet the whole thing seems to have been carpeted over.
The fact that his rear wing failed causing his crash was in those days, accepted as part
and parcel of motor racing, so why this "kangaroo court" with Ayrton?
Matthias Bues
As far as I remember, Elio's live could most probably been saved if the
safety measurements around the track hadn't been as terrible as they were
(it was a test driving session at Paul Ricard, no medical service at the
track, the marshals in charge of extinguishing any fire running around in
shorts and so on...). So it took a fairly long time to get him to any
hospital; many people, lots of medecins among them, claimed that this was
the actual cause of Elio's death. Safety regulations for F1 test drives
were tightened up considerably after this incident.
I think no one in the world of motor racing really thinks different about
Ayrton's accident than that, although tragical, it was something that still
can happen every day in that business. The reason for criminal prosecution
in Ayrton's case is simply legal usus in Italy: The same happened on each
letal accident in a Grand Prix on Italian soil.
Matze
Cheek Sr.
Ian Caldwell wrote:
>
> On 26 Sep 1997 08:12:54 GMT, cro...@cpc.ee.up.ac.za (Charles Crosby)
> wrote:
>
> >Elio de Angelis died in France (Paul Ricard), not Italy. There are few
> >places in the world that would handle the situation in the same way as
> >the Italian legal system.
> >
> >Charles
>
> wrote:
>
> >Elio de Angelis died in France (Paul Ricard), not Italy. There are few
> >places in the world that would handle the situation in the same way as
> >the Italian legal system.
> >
> >Charles
>
> D'Angelis accident unlike the Senna accident was never in doubt.
> The Brabham BT55 that D'Angelis was driving had the rear wing detach
> at high speed which caused the car to flip over and hit a guardrail.
> Hitting the guardrail caused fatal head injuries to D'Angelis.
Sure about that?
From reports at the time,he died from secondary effects of asphyxia
because it took so long to get him out of the car,which was on fire.
There were no reports of head injuries from mechanical trauma.
Doc
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Ian Caldwell
Ian Caldwell
>Elio de Angelis died in France (Paul Ricard), not Italy. There are few
>places in the world that would handle the situation in the same way as
>the Italian legal system.
>
>Charles
Very true. I think it should also be noted that the cause of the
D'Angelis accident unlike like the Senna accident was never in doubt.
Ian Caldwell
On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:38:55 +0000, "Cheek Sr." <kare...@sn.no>
wrote:
>>
>> Very true. I think it should also be noted that the cause of the
>> D'Angelis accident unlike the Senna accident was never in doubt.
>> The Brabham BT55 that D'Angelis was driving had the rear wing detach
>> at high speed which caused the car to flip over and hit a guardrail.
>> Hitting the guardrail caused fatal head injuries to D'Angelis.
>
>Sure about that?
>From reports at the time,he died from secondary effects of asphyxia
>because it took so long to get him out of the car,which was on fire.
>There were no reports of head injuries from mechanical trauma.
I'm sure I read that when the car flipped over Elio's head hit the
guardrail which caused severe injuries. I know the car caught fire but
I thought that the cause of death was severe brain injury.
Jeff York
Steve Chase <sch...@source.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>Had de Angelis received prompt medical attention within minutes of the crash, his life
>may well have been saved. I think that in his case, the whole incident was far more
>scandelous yet the whole thing seems to have been carpeted over.
>
>The fact that his rear wing failed causing his crash was in those days, accepted as part
>and parcel of motor racing, so why this "kangaroo court" with Ayrton?
It is not a "kangaroo court", it is a properly constituted court of
law operating under the Italian legal system.
It is the prerogative of any sovereign state to frame its laws as it
sees fit. In the UK we would have a coroner's inquest - which could
recommend criminal charges for manslaughter, in Italy the two
functions would appear to be combined into one. There have been
postings from people far more knowledgable in Italian law than I am,
which have explained the procedure very clearly.. Try deja news..
--
Jeff.
je...@jakfield.xu-netx.com (remove the x..x round u-net for return address)
... No problem is ever too big to run away from...
Cheek Sr.
I had to check.Elio succumbed to "brain injury" due to cerebral asphyxia
not due to external forces,as in head hitting guard rail.
Apart from inhaling hot fumes and no oxygen,the autopsy confirmed he was
virtually unharmed. Awful,isn't it.
BTW,exactly the same happened to Seppi Siffert at Brands in 1971,and to
Roger Williamson at Zandvoort two years later.
We have truly come a long way since those days.
Steve Chase
Ian Caldwell wrote:
>
> I'm sure I read that when the car flipped over Elio's head hit the
> guardrail which caused severe injuries. I know the car caught fire but
> I thought that the cause of death was severe brain injury.
Elio was my favorite driver at the time, and he definately did die of lack of oxygen
caused by an ensuing fire - due to failure to extract him from the wreckage quick
enough. I've still kept the AUTOSPORT copy of the crash report.
For further reading, Alan Henrys book "The Turbo years" pays tribute to Elio, and also
confirms the fact that the autopsy confirmed he had only suffered a broken collarbone
and light burns to his back in the impact - so his life should have been saved.
If I remember rightly, his father Giulio was going to sue the Ricard marshals for
gross incompetence, but I dont know what came of that.
Cheers!
BIG-MAX
Steve Chase wrote:
>
> If Frank Williams and co DO get prosecuted for the manslaughter of
> Ayrton Senna, then I have this question to ask: What was the difference
> between Ayrtons crash in 1994 and the late Italian driver Elio de
> Angelis's crash in 1986?
>
> - Both fell victim to component failure, but in Elio's case back then
> the consensus of opinion was "tuff - thats Formula One"
>
> So how come no one from Brabham got lynched then?
Let me put it as a question: what is the difference between the
funeral of a woman that 2.5 billion people watched around the world (I
know I wasn't!) and the funeral of, I dunno, Mrs. Jane Doe from Little
City, USA? That's right, the woman that 2.5 billion people watched her
funeral was a huge celebrity. My point: Ayrton Senna was the top
driver in 94 (just like spoon face is today), and his death atracted
lots of media attention.
cheers
--------------------------------------------------------------
BIG MAX
E-mail: weis...@netvision.net.il
Spam Preventer - remove the REMOVE from my e-mail when replying!
"Now, did we, or did we not do vaginal juices?" - John Cleese, Meaning of Life
"If I ever happen to have an accident that eventually costs me my life,
I hope it is in one go" - Ayrton Senna, 1960-1994
Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro
Ian A. White (waiw...@zip.com.au) wrote:
> OK, so it is in a different country, however what about Ratzenberger's
> crash? It happened in Italy, and if there can be no such thing as an
> accidental death, why is it that there is not the same rigour when it
> comes to that investigation?
As as been said countless times, Ratzenberger's accident was investigated
and the conclusion was: driver error. Ratzenberger went out of the track
during the previous lap and damaged his front wing. He should have gone
to pits to check it but he didn't and the wing broke in the wrong place.
--
http://www.mat.uc.pt/~rps/f1/ an ex-tifoso since 95/11/13
.pt is Portugal| `Whom the gods love die young'-Menander (342-292 BC)
Europe | Villeneuve 50-82, Toivonen 56-86, Senna 60-94
DougF
On Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:34:31 GMT, waiw...@zip.com.au (Ian A. White)
wrote:
>OK, so it is in a different country, however what about Ratzenberger's
>crash? It happened in Italy, and if there can be no such thing as an
>accidental death, why is it that there is not the same rigour when it
>comes to that investigation? Why did he loose control? Was it also
>as a result of steering failure, or was insufficient down force
>provided, or was it inappropriate suspension settings, or an
>inappropriate tyre choice, and who made such choices and/or decisions?
AIUI, the cause of Ratzenberger's crash was attributed to
driver error. You see, if you're not a 3 time WC, it's assumed that
you will make mistakes, one of which could potentially kill you. 3
time WC's, OTOH, are assumed to be near-immortal and never make those
kinds of mistakes...
---------------------------------------------------------------
"My life has been full of wonderful moments -
it's only later that they become embarassing."
(Gerhard Berger, F1 Racing 1996)
---------------------------------------------------------------
Spider
On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:09:25 +0100, Steve Chase <sch...@source.co.uk>
wrote:
>Had de Angelis received prompt medical attention within minutes of the crash, his life
>may well have been saved. I think that in his case, the whole incident was far more
>scandelous yet the whole thing seems to have been carpeted over.
>
>The fact that his rear wing failed causing his crash was in those days, accepted as part
>and parcel of motor racing, so why this "kangaroo court" with Ayrton?
don't lose sight of the fact that elio's accident was in france while
ayrton died in italy. each country does have it's own laws.
Ian A. White
>On 26 Sep 1997 08:12:54 GMT, cro...@cpc.ee.up.ac.za (Charles Crosby)
>wrote:
>
>
>>Elio de Angelis died in France (Paul Ricard), not Italy. There are few
>>the Italian legal system.
>>
>>Charles
>
>D'Angelis accident unlike the Senna accident was never in doubt.
>The Brabham BT55 that D'Angelis was driving had the rear wing detach
>at high speed which caused the car to flip over and hit a guardrail.
>Hitting the guardrail caused fatal head injuries to D'Angelis.
Well. It could be just as easily said that Senna's accident was as a
result of the steering failing. As a result the car failed to respond
to steering input and so crashed. In the case of Elio's accident, no
one went looking to blame someone for the rear wing detaching, however
in Senna's case, they are trying to attach blame.
OK, so it is in a different country, however what about Ratzenberger's
crash? It happened in Italy, and if there can be no such thing as an
accidental death, why is it that there is not the same rigour when it
comes to that investigation? Why did he loose control? Was it also
as a result of steering failure, or was insufficient down force
provided, or was it inappropriate suspension settings, or an
inappropriate tyre choice, and who made such choices and/or decisions?
You see, if necessary, it is easy to apportion blame if that was what
is wanted.
--
Regards,
Ian A. White, CPEng
WAI Engineering
Sydney 2000
Australia
Ph: +61 2 418 203 229
=46ax: +61 2 9622 0450
Junk e-mail will be returned, as is, to the sender's host system.
NHa
DougF wrote:
> AIUI, the cause of Ratzenberger's crash was attributed to
> driver error. You see, if you're not a 3 time WC, it's assumed that
> you will make mistakes, one of which could potentially kill you. 3
> time WC's, OTOH, are assumed to be near-immortal and never make those
> kinds of mistakes...
Ratzenberger was a rookie and indeed, Senna was a three time WC. It's
pretty obvious you except less errors from the WC.
--
Ferro /\/\/\ Dem proctus non pasficus,
nhal...@alpha.hut.fi \/\/\/ que si padre nauticum.
Dillon Pyron
> >crash? It happened in Italy, and if there can be no such thing as an
> >accidental death, why is it that there is not the same rigour when it
> >comes to that investigation? Why did he loose control? Was it also
> >as a result of steering failure, or was insufficient down force
> >provided, or was it inappropriate suspension settings, or an
> >inappropriate tyre choice, and who made such choices and/or decisions?
>
> driver error. You see, if you're not a 3 time WC, it's assumed that
> you will make mistakes, one of which could potentially kill you. 3
> time WC's, OTOH, are assumed to be near-immortal and never make those
> kinds of mistakes...
Ratzenberger's accident was due to his (HIS) decision to stay out on the
course dispite having severe damage to his front wing. When it failed,
he lost control. Not your "traditional" driver error, but definitely
his call.
--
dillon pyron
dillon...@amd.com
PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031
Corgis are big dogs in small suits.