Braking technique in F1?
New Lateran Treaty
from road driving and doorslammer racing, so I'd like to hear from
anyone who knows.
I was taught (in saloons) to brake hard but to apply and release the
brakes SLOWLY-GENTLY, to help front:rear balance. As far as I
understand, F1 brakes are on for barely 0.3-to-0.5 seconds, so there
can hardly be any distinct 'application' and 'release' phases. Do they
simply stab?
Do F1 drivers continue braking as they turn?
Tutors have told me to finish all braking before turning the wheel,
AND other tutors have told me to continue braking into the turn
(saloons). Is there any variety between cars and drivers, and among
different track corners, in F1 driving?
In one class we were given a Jackie Stewart quote from when he was
questuioned about his famous braking. He said he did not brake harder
than others did, but GOT OFF the brakes better than others did. This
was told to stress the importance of not un-balancing the car.
I'd appreciate hearing what rasf1 knows about F1 versus other braking.
Baldy
I can tell you of my experience from kart racing, all braking has to
be done before turning or the back gets unloaded and turns the kart
into the corner - result? A spin into the corner and no way to
recover, a bit frightening really. You might not think this has
anything to do with F1 but my hero Michael Schumacher is training with
Karts to get fit for F1.
Phil Newnham
> It seems to me that applying brakes in F1 cars is totally different
> from road driving and doorslammer racing, so I'd like to hear from
> anyone who knows.
>
> I was taught (in saloons) to brake hard but to apply and release the
> brakes SLOWLY-GENTLY, to help front:rear balance. As far as I
> understand, F1 brakes are on for barely 0.3-to-0.5 seconds, so there
> can hardly be any distinct 'application' and 'release' phases. Do they
> simply stab?
They can afford to stomp on the brake pedal as hard as they can because
of the phenomenal amount of downforce the car generates at speed. They
generally (but not always - depends on the driver) come off the brakes
somewhat more gently. Some drivers (eg. Alonso) are more violent with
the pedals than others (eg. Button).
> Do F1 drivers continue braking as they turn?
Typically yes, they trail brake into the corners. You can sometimes see
this on the telemetry, when they show it. Again styles vary according to
driver and car.
--
Phil
Bigbird
Yup, poor drivers should not attempt to brake and turn at the same time.
--
Bigbird
#
Sir Tim
wrote:
>Baldy wrote:
>> I can tell you of my experience from kart racing, all braking has to
>> be done before turning or the back gets unloaded and turns the kart
>> into the corner
>
>Yup, poor drivers should not attempt to brake and turn at the same time.
Not even *average* drivers should attempt it IMO. Trail braking
involves a deft touch on throttle, brakes and steering, Many top line
drivers have stated that the most important thing they ever learned
was when and how to come *off* the brakes.
I've no idea whether the technique is applicable to modern F1 cars but
it was definitely used by the best drivers in the "seat of the pants"
days.
--
Henry Birkin Bt.
Phil Newnham
> On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 12:50:41 +0200, Phil Newnham wrote:
>
>>> Do F1 drivers continue braking as they turn?
>> Typically yes, they trail brake into the corners. You can sometimes see
>> this on the telemetry, when they show it. Again styles vary according to
>> driver and car.
>
> camera.
Does seeing that the brakes are hot tell you that the driver is still on
the brake pedal, or only that the brake temperature is still high enough
that they glow? Answers on a postcard...
--
Phil
Mike P
> On 9 Aug 2009 11:12:37 GMT, "Bigbird" <Bigbird.us...@Gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Baldy wrote:
>
>>> I can tell you of my experience from kart racing, all braking has to
>>> be done before turning or the back gets unloaded and turns the kart
>>> into the corner
>>
>>Yup, poor drivers should not attempt to brake and turn at the same time.
>
> Not even *average* drivers should attempt it IMO.
I'm no driving god, but I do it when I'm on my favourite roads and I'm
"making time". Done properly, it makes a lot of difference if you can
brake up to the apex of the corner or just before, and be immediately on
the throttle. I use my left foot to help this.
>Trail braking involves a deft touch on throttle, brakes and steering,
Indeed. Or you crash. My instructor told me to imagine there's an egg
under the brake pedal and I have to brake gently without breaking it..
>Many top line drivers have stated that the most important thing they
>ever learned was when and how to come *off* the brakes. I've no idea
>whether the technique is applicable to modern F1 cars but it was
>definitely used by the best drivers in the "seat of the pants" days.
It was definitely used by Alain Prost. I remember reading an Autosport
article back when he was still driving about how he used to do it, and
why it gave him an advantage - he was smoother, and there was something
about it putting less stress on the car as he wasn't braking as violently
as some drivers. I presume it's still used today as the throttle and
brake traces on telemetry don't seem to have any parts where neither
throttle or brake are not being used.
Mike P
Mike P
The article I read in Autosport years ago reckoned that the brakes only
glow red when the driver is on the pedal, they cool enough to stop them
glowing pretty instantly. This was one way to tell how late and deep
Prost braked into a corner compared to some of the others.
How accurate or true that is, I have no idea.
Mike P
Ian Dalziel
wrote:
Well, it tells you that they brake for the bendy bits.
--
Ian D
Greg Campbell
>> It seems to me that applying brakes in F1 cars is totally different
>> from road driving and doorslammer racing, so I'd like to hear from
>> anyone who knows.
I think the principles are the same, but the immense grip greatly
shortens the braking cycle.
>> I was taught (in saloons) to brake hard but to apply and release the
>> brakes SLOWLY-GENTLY, to help front:rear balance. As far as I
>> understand, F1 brakes are on for barely 0.3-to-0.5 seconds, so there
>> can hardly be any distinct 'application' and 'release' phases. Do they
>> simply stab?
They can be on longer than that, particularly in the all-too-rare
decreasing radius corners. So many $%^@$# Tilkedromes consist of
short-medium straights, connected by slow elbows of ~90 degrees or less.
Under those circumstances, I'd agree that there's less room for subtle
driving techniques.
>> Do F1 drivers continue braking as they turn?
Sure! Sometimes.
>> Tutors have told me to finish all braking before turning the wheel,
>> AND other tutors have told me to continue braking into the turn
>> (saloons).
Trailbraking is SO advantageous (in most situations), yet I've heard the
same thing - some instructors tell the students not to even try. Dumb, IMO.
You see Eff Wun pilots trail braking all the time. In slow corners,
where aero doesn't overwhelm the handling, modulating the brakes allows
you to vary front/rear grip. A little trail braking can do wonders for
a slightly understeering car.
>> Is there any variety between cars and drivers, and among
>> different track corners, in F1 driving?
I bet all the drivers trail brake as needed.
On a closely related topic, some drivers brake with the left foot,
others with the right. LFB allows the driver to apply small dabs of
throttle, dynamically altering the brake bias, improving raw braking
performance and also allowing better corner entry control.
>> In one class we were given a Jackie Stewart quote from when he was
>> questuioned about his famous braking. He said he did not brake harder
>> than others did, but GOT OFF the brakes better than others did. This
>> was told to stress the importance of not un-balancing the car.
Mario Andreti said something along the lines of "Most people mistake the
brake as a device for slowing the car." Implying that proper (trail)
braking was a great aide in making the car turn into a corner.
> I can tell you of my experience from kart racing, all braking has to
> be done before turning or the back gets unloaded and turns the kart
> into the corner - result? A spin into the corner and no way to
> recover, a bit frightening really.
I'm fairly sure this technique is mandated by the kart's solid rear
axle. Getting off the brake makes all the grip available for a big
steering input, necessary to heel the car over onto the outside wheels,
which in turn allows the inside rear tire to scrub and the car to turn.
Bigbird
Of course all F1 drivers LFB nowadays. It's been that way for some time
AFAIK. I recall stories of Rubens having problems adapting, that was
some years ago though.
> LFB allows the driver to apply small dabs of
> throttle, dynamically altering the brake bias, improving raw braking
> performance and also allowing better corner entry control.
>
--
Bigbird
#
Andrew Smallshaw
> On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 18:22:14 +0200, Phil Newnham yelled loudly:
>
>> the brake pedal, or only that the brake temperature is still high enough
>> that they glow? Answers on a postcard...
>
> The article I read in Autosport years ago reckoned that the brakes only
> glow red when the driver is on the pedal, they cool enough to stop them
> glowing pretty instantly. This was one way to tell how late and deep
> Prost braked into a corner compared to some of the others.
I agree with that. It is the kind of thing that is rarely shown
on TV footage but it shows up very well live. The brake discs
glow brightly while they are on the brakes and then dim very quickly
(less than a second). They are still glowing of course, but at
nowhere near the brightness.
--
Andrew Smallshaw
and...@sdf.lonestar.org
Paul-B
Watching the cars at night at Le Mans is a real lesson. The brake discs
glow for quite a while, certainly longer than the driver can possibly
be braking.
We need some input from Fredrick here...
--
Paul-B
Greg Campbell
> Greg Campbell wrote:
>> On a closely related topic, some drivers brake with the left foot,
>> others with the right.
> Of course all F1 drivers LFB nowadays. It's been that way for some time
> AFAIK. I recall stories of Rubens having problems adapting, that was
> some years ago though.
Yea, Ruby was one of the holdouts. Did he finally make the switch? I
seem to remember him giving it a try, but not liking and/or getting much
out of it.
Mike P
I should hope he did, or he's not worthy of a place in F1. He'd be
instantly disadvantaged if he didn't because there would be a slight
delay between coming off the brake and getting on the throttle -
however small, it all adds up to tenths of a second.
FFS, it's really *not* that hard to left foot brake. Anyone who's ever
driven a kart will have left foot braked for a start. I'd have thought
it a lot easier in a modern F1 car with no clutch pedal than it was in
one with three pedals and a real gear lever.
Mike P
David Melville
I've been a LFBer for years. I always found it more sensible (why take my
feet *away* from the pedals????) and smoother.
Cheers,
Dave
RBnDFW
> It seems to me that applying brakes in F1 cars is totally different
> from road driving and doorslammer racing, so I'd like to hear from
> anyone who knows.
>
> I was taught (in saloons) to brake hard but to apply and release the
> brakes SLOWLY-GENTLY, to help front:rear balance. As far as I
> understand, F1 brakes are on for barely 0.3-to-0.5 seconds, so there
> can hardly be any distinct 'application' and 'release' phases. Do they
> simply stab?
>
> Do F1 drivers continue braking as they turn?
>
> Tutors have told me to finish all braking before turning the wheel,
> AND other tutors have told me to continue braking into the turn
> (saloons). Is there any variety between cars and drivers, and among
> different track corners, in F1 driving?
>
> In one class we were given a Jackie Stewart quote from when he was
> than others did, but GOT OFF the brakes better than others did. This
> was told to stress the importance of not un-balancing the car.
>
> I'd appreciate hearing what rasf1 knows about F1 versus other braking.
There is a big difference in braking technique from a winged formula car
to a production-based race car. On a winged formula car, brakes are so
good that your pedal pressure is instantly translated into tremendous
braking forces. I think of it as digital in nature. Driving a winged
formula car you are almost forced into straight-line braking.
When I first drove a formula car, I found myself braking almost to a
stop 100 feet from the apex. It's a real education dealing with the
amount of power those wings add to braking, much less cornering. A
racing-speed brake application into a slow corner slams you HARD into
the belts, and tests your neck muscles more than anything else I know
of, short of an impact. It's literally breath-taking.
Driving a production-based (saloon, door slammer) the brakes are not
usually as good, the downforce is all but nonexistent. The braking
transitions are spread over a longer time period. Analog. Trail-braking
works.
Transitions between the car types takes me a long practice session to
re-learn/un-learn braking technique.
Devany
Remember McLaren's "lateral-biasing" rear brake?
IIRC there were two brake pedals.
"The driver selects the inner rear brake for the approaching corner and
when the car begins to understeer into the corner, as most Formula1 cars
do, he applies braking effort to this second pedal to brake the inner
rear wheel. The resulting yawing moment generated turns the car into the
corner. He may apply power at the same time and use both feet, on
throttle and brake pedal, to assist with the steering control of the car."
Phil Newnham
> Andrew Smallshaw wrote:
>
>> On 2009-08-09, Mike P <pri...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 18:22:14 +0200, Phil Newnham yelled loudly:
>>>
>>>> Does seeing that the brakes are hot tell you that the driver is
>> still on >> the brake pedal, or only that the brake temperature is
>> still high enough >> that they glow? Answers on a postcard...
>>> The article I read in Autosport years ago reckoned that the brakes
>>> only glow red when the driver is on the pedal, they cool enough to
>>> stop them glowing pretty instantly. This was one way to tell how
>>> late and deep Prost braked into a corner compared to some of the
>>> others.
>> I agree with that. It is the kind of thing that is rarely shown
>> on TV footage but it shows up very well live. The brake discs
>> glow brightly while they are on the brakes and then dim very quickly
>> (less than a second). They are still glowing of course, but at
>> nowhere near the brightness.
Less than a second from the driver coming off the pedal is probably long
enough to exit the corner, for quite a lot of corners.
> Watching the cars at night at Le Mans is a real lesson. The brake discs
> glow for quite a while, certainly longer than the driver can possibly
> be braking.
Are Le Mans car brakes the same as F1 car brakes?
--
Phil
Frank Adam
I'm just waiting for an all out slanging war on which is better.. :)
Here are two contrasting styles.. Fabian Coulthard and Garth Tander.
Both work well. Mind you, Garth is a champ and i'll mention that only
becuse i do not left foot brake at all. Let the fight begin.. ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5XGzgXKK8w&feature=PlayList&p=59EBA0D50E145B8D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-bWqqvqNJ0
--
Regards, Frank
News
On Saturday, there was some great heel-toe and brake assurance pedal cam
"footage" of guest road course driver Boris Said qualifying and hustling
a NASCAR COT around the short course at Watkins Glen.
New Lateran Treaty
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-bWqqvqNJ0
>
> On Saturday, there was some great heel-toe and brake assurance pedal cam
> "footage" of guest road course driver Boris Said qualifying and hustling
>
> - Show quoted text -
I must say that pedal cams are the most interesting use of in-car
cams, -- truly fascinating to watch the divers "dance" so lightly.
Along with the view of their eyes (so WIDE open), and their juggling
hands, it convinces me that race driving is a cross between ballet and
soccer!
Frank Adam
I've said this before, but you'd be amazed if you placed a cam at your
own feet when driving briskly in traffic. You don't even notice it,
because it is more or less an automatic thing, but you are doing
pretty much the same, just at a slower rate. The finesse is there for
most any experienced road driver, it's just that we may not be able to
match it at those higher speeds that racers do.
And if you have a car like my last Commodore was with the series 1
ABS, you'd be still left dabbing the damn brakes too. :-/
--
Regards, Frank
New Lateran Treaty
> ABS, you'd be still left dabbing the damn brakes too. :-/
>
> --
>
-- and if you had my ancient Morris Minor in 1977, the "dancing"
driver's feet occasionally shifted the bit of carpet aside. to reveal
the rushing tarmac ----.
Frank Adam
Wish i had that, so when the pedal travelled an extra 10-15mm to grab,
instead of where it braked before, i could've used the Flinstone
technique.
--
Regards, Frank
David Melville
I recall this FUCKING AWFUL VW Beetle that belonged to my wife.
The brake master cylinder had dodgy seals. If you touched the brake,
nothing happened at all! The pedal sank slowly to the floor.
To initiate any kind of braking, I had to SLAM the pedal to get a seal
and then modulate pressure. It would have been fun except that every time
I slammed the brake to prime it I expected it to respond with a "pop!"
and hit the bulwark.
Reminds me of a Stirling Moss story about a car he had with such
ineffective and untrustworthy brakes that he used to scrub off speed
(literally!) by rubbing the tyrewall against the kerb. He attributed his
precision racing lines to this enforced exercise!
Apocryphal?
Cheers,
Dave
David Melville
When I was a kid, we lived on a dirt road on a hill.
The game was to pedal our pushbikes as fast as possible downhill to a
particular line, and then Flintstone brake to produce the longest
possible shoe skid marks in the gravel.
We went through the soles of our sneakers at the most alarming rate those
few summers!
Made your feet all tingly too. Nice and yummy.
Cheers,
Dave
Mike P
I had a 2CV that the brakes failed on due to a sticking caliper
(overheated, boiled fluid), while I was approaching a queue of
traffic. I slowed it down by rubbing it hard along the kerb. Just.
Fair shit me up I can tell you.
Mike P
Mike P
We used to do that on our BMXs but lock the rear wheel with the brake
to see who could leave the longest tyre mark on the road or in the
gravel . I ruined many tyres doing that. Taught me about sideways
control though, and I graduated to powersliding motocross bikes when I
was 11 or so :-)
Mike P
David Melville
LOL!
We did the Flintstone thing only after getting bored with what you did!
Strange though, motorbikes have always scared the shit out of me. Even
more strangely, in dreams where I ride a motorbike there is nothing I
can't do and ride with panache and confidence.
Get out your Freud textbooks and go nuts!
Cheers,
Dave
David Melville
Quick thinking. Well done.
Kind of like the time I chose between the rear end of a new Holden and an
empty bus shelter.
Cheers,
Dave
Mike P
Fortunately I had enough time to think what to do. Partly quick
thinking, partly luck that I'd left a gap and had a high kerb next to
me!
Having brakes fail in a car is the single worst feeling I've ever
had. It's a true "OH FUCK!!!" moment as the pedal hits the floor,
very quickly followed by "do something NOW or you die"...
> Kind of like the time I chose between the rear end of a new Holden and an
> empty bus shelter.
I hope the bus shelter got it. I hate buses :-p
Mike P
Mike P
I think with bikes, you either love them or hate them. I love them,
but I stopped riding a few years ago before I hurt myself again (or
ended up in a wooden box) I had a couple of crashes and some broken
bones, but didn't stop until my wife was pregnant and my Fireblade
felt "slow".
>Even more strangely, in dreams where I ride a motorbike there is nothing I
> can't do and ride with panache and confidence.
It's a sign for you to get on two wheels mate!
Mike P
Paul-B
I love my bike. Don't ride it at the moment, it needs work doing and
bikes are expensive, but I'll never get rid of it unless it's to buy
another Triumph!
--
Paul-B
New Lateran Treaty
> I love my bike. Don't ride it at the moment, it needs work doing and
> bikes are expensive, but I'll never get rid of it unless it's to buy
> another Triumph!
>
Jubilee with brake drums the size of cotton reels. No, I had never
redone the brakes. Light ahead turns red and side-by-side vans in
front slam on the anchors --- weedy weedy weedy weedy weedy [sound of
my brakes] --
At least my front wheel squeezed a foot or two between them before the
bang. Two van drivers not amused. I kept riding the thing until I
had to switch the ignition to a weird "temp. emergency starting only"
position to keep it going at all, which soon red-heated the engine.
M'cycle shop mechanics used to shoo me away if I pulled into the
forecourt. All bikers snigger at Jubilees, but I was totally ignorant
of machinery and should have kept my humble James two-stroke.
Not Me
And your best TT lap was?
News
Just a tick behind Mike the Bike, no doubt.
David Melville
>
> I think with bikes, you either love them or hate them. I love them, but
> I stopped riding a few years ago before I hurt myself again (or ended up
> in a wooden box) I had a couple of crashes and some broken bones, but
> didn't stop until my wife was pregnant and my Fireblade felt "slow".
>
A timely decision.
And this is what's odd, I do love bikes, and would dearly love to conquer
my fears. Sadly, the only thing that would do that is if I conquered my
inability first! Ridden a few minibikes, quads, and paddock bombs, but
never felt confident. Maybe just a practise/in-good-time thing. Oh well.
My life turned responsible just as I was seriously considering going for
a bike license.
And back in my younger days, when a couple of mates got bikes, I
considered getting a license but no bike, in case we ever ended up in a
situation where the bike rider was unable to ride for whatever reason
(injury/ >.05) but the bike needed to be somewhere or was the only form
of transport in an emergency.
>>Even more strangely, in dreams where I ride a motorbike there is nothing
>>I
>> can't do and ride with panache and confidence.
>
> It's a sign for you to get on two wheels mate!
It's a sign I'll choose to ignore!
>
> Mike P
cHEERS,
dAVE
(My daughter just hit Caps Lock)
David Melville
Yeah. Unpleasant.
The luckiest escape I ever had:
Knocked off work, went out to my car, got in, started it, put my foot on
the brake pedal and "POP!", down she went to the floor. Bugger. Hadn't
even moved from the parking space.
Oh well.... Got out, checked. Left front flexible hose to caliper had
blown out. "Wow. I think. How lucky for me I wasn't 100m further on in my
trip."
Called my sister to pick me up. We went to Repco on the way home and
grabbed a new hose.
Next day, she drops me to work with tools and hose. I work my day (yeah
right!) and then head for the beast in the car park and replace the
broken hose.
Got in my car, started it, put my foot on the brake pedal and "POP!",
down she went to the floor. "Are you fucking serious?!" I think to myself.
Got out, checked. RIGHT front flexible hose to caliper blown out!!!!!!
Did it all over again! Should have bought a lotto ticket that week!
Probably would have got a stuck throttle on the way to collect my
winnings though!
Unreal. Even telling the story I never believe it.
>> Kind of like the time I chose between the rear end of a new Holden and
>> an empty bus shelter.
>
> I hope the bus shelter got it. I hate buses :-p
>
> Mike P
Shit yeah. Fortunately, the gutter between the road and bus shelter was
so high that if virtually stopped me on the spot, with my left front rim
folded inward. No mechanical damage to any other part of the car. Changed
wheels and away we went.
Cheers,
Dave
Chad
Personally I would imagine Heel/Toe right foot braking would be more
difficult to master than left foot braking. And as you use both pedals at
once I don't think there is any time loss due to foot movement either.
--
Chad
Chad
I lived on a hill like that too. We used to get at the bottom on our little
50-75cc minibikes and with both feet dragging behind, see who who could hold
a wheelstand all the way to the top.
Sneakers lasted about 2 hours doing that :D
--
Chad
Ian Rawlings
> Oh well.... Got out, checked. Left front flexible hose to caliper had
> blown out. "Wow. I think. How lucky for me I wasn't 100m further on in my
> trip."
I recently felt the brakes in my Audi being a bit soft while driving,
pulled up at a roundabout and pressed the brake, and it slowly sank to
the floor so I flipped it around and went back home. The brakes
worked fine to stop me but if I held them on the pedal would sink to
the floor slowly so I mostly used the handbrake, reserving the
hydraulic brakes for an emergency. Got home to find a brake pipe leak
at the rear and the brake fluid reservoir gradually emptying, glad I
spotted that as it's an automatic, no engine braking so I'd only have
had the handbrake. I like autos for everyday driving but the lack of
engine braking or any way to stall the engine in the event of a
turbocharger seal leaking oil into the airflow (I've seen that happen)
worries me a bit.
I think the brakes would have still worked on the front as I believe
the reservoir has a partition separating the front and rear at the
lowest extreme to keep a small amount in one end if there's a leak in
the other end but I've not checked. It's present on other cars I've
worked on.
--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
http://youtube.com/tarcus69
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/
Mike P
IME you are spot on. LF braking is pretty easy once you've done it
once or twice and get used to the fact you are not stamping on the
clutch. Heel and toe is pretty tricky to master, I can do it, but not
very well, and only in a car with the pedals in exactly the right
place. I personally think most road cars I've driven have too much
travel on the pedals, especially the throttle pedal, to do it
properly.
Mike P
Chad
That's very normal with hydraulic parts like that. Replacing just one part
in the system causes an overall increase in pressure and very often will
blow out other wear parts quickly. (not often instantly though!).
If you replace just one worn out radiator hose the same thing happens too.
You can almost guarantee the other one will start to leak sooner than later.
--
Chad
David Melville
Appreciated. The part that got me was that both pops occured while the
car was parked!
I had a machine like that at work once. Pan flusher in a hospital. Over
the course of a week I replaced nearly half the parts, so we just
stripped it and did the lot, then did all the other ones in the building!!
The annoying thing was that I had been asked to look at the flusher
because of a bad smell (yeah, that one) in the room. After taking apart,
servicing, and rebuilding the machine, the smell remained. The nurse in
charge was well pissed off at me, assuming it had to be my ineptitude. A
day later, I discovered the source of the smell, which had started the
whole nonsense to begin with. Some dumb bitch on night shift had put a
stool specimen container (with specimen!) on a high shelf, out of sight,
and forgotten it. The lid was not fastened properly.
The only giggle I got out of it was (a) when I was sprayed with high
pressure 90 deg Celcius water, and (b) when the charge nurse turned
everything she'd had on me on the offender, plus some.
Cheers,
Dave
Chad
I can't do either very well. It's a horrible feeling the first time you try
a LFB and cant seem to stop yourself tromping on it, as a manual car driver
especially!
--
Chad
Steve Thompson
> Personally I would imagine Heel/Toe right foot braking would be more
> difficult to master than left foot braking. And as you use both pedals at
> once I don't think there is any time loss due to foot movement either.
Personally I have found the opposite to be true in a single seater. In a
road car with syncromesh, heel/toe is a little harder to master.
-s
Mike P
plan to do somehow one of these days!
Mike P
Mike P
try it in bare feet, much easier the first few times.. gives you so
much more feel on the pedals. I love driving in bare feet. I have some
race boots I wear often too, if I'm going to be spending a long time
driving.
Mike P
David Melville
Easy. Grab yourself a ratchet and socket and get to!
Back seat... passenger seat....
Hey presto! Single seater!
But seriously, me too. Something bad.
Cheers,
Dave
David Melville
Hehehe. If ever I borrowed my mum's automatic, I would pull up to park
and then nearly go through the windshield as I clutched in on the brake
pedal.
But worse is when I forget I've switched from tiptronic back to full
auto, and slip the car into neutral at alarming speed into a corner.
I imagine it would be like miscounting up- or down-shifts on a bike.
Cheers,
Dave
David Melville
Amen to that. I drive barefoot as often as possible. Have often thought
about modifying an old pair of sneakers to make some soft-soled driving
shoes. The sense of connection with one's car is greatly enhanced.
Also, I hate driving in boots (workboots). Usually slip them off if I'll
be going for over two hours.
But then again, two hours don't get you too far in Australia.
Cheers,
Dave
RBnDFW
I agree. It's actually easier if the synchros are worn out, depending on
the synchro design.
Of course pedal placement is the big issue in street vehicles
peter
>IME you are spot on. LF braking is pretty easy once you've done it
>once or twice and get used to the fact you are not stamping on the
>clutch. Heel and toe is pretty tricky to master, I can do it, but not
>very well, and only in a car with the pedals in exactly the right
>place. I personally think most road cars I've driven have too much
>travel on the pedals, especially the throttle pedal, to do it
>properly.
>
two pedal car...in fact too hard to risk...especially as I like to brake
late into a corner when braking hard.
Heel and toe OTOH (or rather toe and toe) became second nature as part
of driving my SMG M3s helped greatly by the perfect placing and height
of the two pedals.
--
"This is slave 'Max' a dirty rubber slut!"
News
Beyond pedal placements, street car clutch packages and gearsets are
heavy and thus the engagement is slow.
Steve Thompson
> I've not had the pleasure of trying a single seater. It's something I
> plan to do somehow one of these days!
Get thee to a track and try one as soon as you can. The most fun you will
ever have with your clothes on. And btw, it is a _lot_ harder than it
looks.
Steve
Bigbird
This is a very sad habit you have got yourself into News/Not Me (oh yes
it is).
--
Bigbird
#
Bigbird
I never had a really fast bike but then I used them for commuting
mostly, for about 15 years. I was always a ton up down the lanes in the
morning, couldn't help myself. I never had a nasty accident (never had
any real accident after week 1) but was never far from one.
I was going through a time when the only real fun I was getting was the
25 minute blast to work and back. Got off one day and decided my
mindset was all wrong; if I didn't choose a tin box it would be a
wooden one any day soon.
Can't remember if I've been back on one since.
I could never be half hearted about bikes and I could never have ridden
one like I now often drive...all classic FM and a 3 second gap.
--
Bigbird
#
Mike P
I plan to, just as soon as I've moved house. Which is this weekend.
Oh, deep joy of joys. That'll be fun!
Mike P
I had a Honda Melody moped thing, then a thing called a Daelim DK50
twist'n'go thing out in Greece. I came back to UK and bought a
restricted NS125R then a CBR600 after about 3 months, then another
year later bought a Fireblade. It was *fantastic* and pretty much the
fastest thing on the road back in 1997 (that you could buy for under
10 grand anyway).
>but then I used them for commuting
> mostly, for about 15 years.
I commuted on bikes, I had a couple of shite old bikes as well as the
blade that I used over winter. Suzuki GN250 (ugh!) and another
unrestricted NS125R stroker that was actually damn good fun.
> I was always a ton up down the lanes in the
> morning, couldn't help myself. I never had a nasty accident (never had
> any real accident after week 1) but was never far from one.
> I was going through a time when the only real fun I was getting was the
> 25 minute blast to work and back. Got off one day and decided my
> mindset was all wrong; if I didn't choose a tin box it would be a
> wooden one any day soon.
I never had a nasty one , a couple of broken bones in my ankle, a
fractured vertebrae but not serious - just minor bumps really. The
issue was the same as yours - I was "commuting" down the back roads
and then the M4 at well over a ton, and I just couldn't get enough or
go fast enough. Riding like that, it's not long before it's wooden
box time, or in the case of my late cousin, wheelchair and eating
through a straw time. I'd not been finding the blade "wow" fast for a
while, and I stopped when my wife was pregnant with baby 1. I lost
the front end of the 'bike on (thankfully) a low speed, 30 mph turn on
some cowshit. I pretty much picked it up, rode it home and stuck it in
Autotrader. Didn't touch one again for 6 years until a friend asked me
to garage his Blackbird 1100 XX last summer. I took it for a blast up
the road, but I felt pretty unsafe TBH, and when I went over a ton I
nearly shat myself.
> Can't remember if I've been back on one since.
> I could never be half hearted about bikes and I could never have ridden
> one like I now often drive...all classic FM and a 3 second gap.
I know, I'm getting to that stage myself. I was listening to the radio
in the car the other day, and was horrified/surprised to find out I'd
been listening to Radio 4 for a week.. Saying that, I'm *very* tempted
by the TVR Chimera that's for sale near us. I somehow doubt I'd be
able to potter around in it.
Mike P
Bigbird
>
> I never had a nasty one , a couple of broken bones in my ankle, a
> fractured vertebrae but not serious - just minor bumps really.
I'd probably call those nasty. Worst I did was near write off my first
bike in the first week hitting a traffic island at about 30. No bones
broken but my damaged shoulder would complain in wet weather for a good
ten years.
> Saying that, I'm very tempted
> by the TVR Chimera that's for sale near us. I somehow doubt I'd be
> able to potter around in it.
>
Coincidentally I have a fond memory of "racing" a Chimera down the
Drift Road - 2 miles dead straight with a few compressions. Of course I
accelerated past him but he rose to the unintended challenge and
thundered past me doing a good 130+ by half way. It was a rare event.
I couldn't recommend getting on a bike nowadays. Every time I arrive at
a junction and struggle to get genuine eye contact because the other
driver is on the phone or likewise fails to indicate because they have
one hand up to their ear I think how much more worrying it is now to be
so vulnerable.
--
Bigbird
#
News
Since conspiracy studies are apparently your hobby...
How about the second shooter on the grassy knoll?
Was 9/11 an inside job?
Was it Colonel Mustard in the library with the candlestick?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Bigbird
> Bigbird wrote:
> > News wrote:
> >
> > This is a very sad habit you have got yourself into News/Not Me (oh
> > yes it is).
> >
>
>
> Since conspiracy studies are apparently your hobby...
>
Nope, Not Me.
--
Bigbird
#
News
Since you chose to turn yourself in, more power to you, Bird.
Bigbird
You appear to be having an identity crisis.
--
Bigbird
#
Frank Adam
ROFL. My ex had a semi auto Honda Civic and i always used the gears in
it. My car was manual and at the time was driving it a lot, then one
day i sat in the Honda with her next to me and we took off in a kinda
hurry to get somewhere.. I also thought that i'll do the two foot
brake.
1st to redline, clutch, select second.. Whoops.. almost broke her
neck. In hindsight, that would've been a welcome outcome. :-)
I haven't two footed since and probably won't as it doesn't feel right
anyway.. Or at least i won't while i still like Jackie. :)
>But worse is when I forget I've switched from tiptronic back to full
>auto, and slip the car into neutral at alarming speed into a corner.
>
>I imagine it would be like miscounting up- or down-shifts on a bike.
>
Like missing a gear shift and thrown back into neutral..
My old beast early on had a stock 3 speed floor shift. It had plastic
cups to keep the selector between the shift lever forks. The thing
would find the worst times to slip out, be it in the middle of peak
hour traffic with the selector jammed between the two forks, so i'd
have to coast to a stop(like on Kingsway, city bound at around 8AM!),
pull the rubber boot off, get a large screwdriver and prise it back,
or indeed into a turn where i relied on the engine break to make the
turn. Probably learnt to handle understeer right there. :-)
--
Regards, Frank
Frank Adam
<davidm...@exemail.k0nn./> wrote:
>I imagine it would be like miscounting up- or down-shifts on a bike.
>
At least there you are half aware so can do something about it.
The worst thing IMO, that can happen on a bike is an engine seize into
a turn. You're fooked and a mere passenger from there on..
Hitting a semi-trailer head on probably comes before that and silly
things like riding over an elevated railway track at 45 degree angle
isn't good either.. Not that i would do that, it was someone else. In
that person's defence, I never saw it until it was 20 metres away
coming out of a turn. ;-)
--
Regards, Frank
David Melville
> the selector jammed between the two forks, so i'd have to coast to a
> stop(like on Kingsway, city bound at around 8AM!),
OH S H I I I I I I I T T T T! kind of moment?
My little Holden/Bus stop choice was made going down Punt Hill towards
Hoddle Bridge, in the driving rain, as those horrible lights turned red.
(Do you know it? The clock on the tower over the Yarra is in front,
behind all the weaving taxis.)
I kicked it 3...2...1... and still wasn't gonna stop....
> pull the rubber boot
> off, get a large screwdriver and prise it back, or indeed into a turn
> where i relied on the engine break to make the turn. Probably learnt to
> handle understeer right there. :-)
LOL! A guy I worked with converted his Premier from 3-on-the-tree to four-
on-the-floor, but space was tight for the box. As a result, the linkages
used to get stuck. To select reverse, he used to get a pair of pliers
from the glovebox (kept in there for the following purpose), slide under
the car, and physically move the linkage with the pliers.
Note to self: Double-check handbrake........
Guy was a nut. Came to work one day with big red welts on the sides of
his neck and left wrist. What happened?
Well, the night before, he had been drinking with mates who then made the
decision to go to a nightclub. So he throws on a shirt, but it's
wrinkled. So he ironed it...... without taking it off.
Cheers,
Dave
David Melville
> On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 13:27:03 +0000 (UTC), David Melville
> <davidm...@exemail.k0nn./> wrote:
>
>>I imagine it would be like miscounting up- or down-shifts on a bike.
>>
> At least there you are half aware so can do something about it.
Are you accusing me of being *less* than half-aware in a car?
Cheers,
Dave
Frank Adam
<davidm...@exemail.k0nn./> wrote:
>On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 12:55:48 +1000, Frank Adam wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 13:27:03 +0000 (UTC), David Melville
>> <davidm...@exemail.k0nn./> wrote:
>>
>>>I imagine it would be like miscounting up- or down-shifts on a bike.
>>>
>> At least there you are half aware so can do something about it.
>
>Are you accusing me of being *less* than half-aware in a car?
>
'Course not. Only on a bike. ;)
--
Regards, Frank
RBnDFW
When you get done, give me an address and I'll ship you a nice Swift
2-liter, ready to race. Needs a new home