Nick Wirth (Simtek)'s posts to rasf1
Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro
people have some curiosity about Nick Wirth's participation in this
newsgroup back in 1995. I took a look at my archives, at Dejanews
(fruitlessly. They seem to have erased their 1995 database) and
append below what I found. There was at least one post I didn't
save: Subject: Re: Simtek: Jos and gearboxes...
Message-ID: <800121...@simtek.co.uk>
(That one was probably the more participative post that Nick did here,
since it was (I think) in reply to someone else and not just a recycling
of an already written text).
Apart from these posts, I also mailed Nick Wirth once, and I received
a reply (and a promise to pass along the email to Nick who was in
Barcelona at the time) from someone named Simon Turner (this name
seems familiar, but I don't recall anything else about him (and Who's
Who (http://www.mcz.com/f1/f1who.htm) doesn't mention it either.
Maybe that book "Who works in F1" would be useful).
BTW, if you read this till the end, you will find a joke.
From gnu.mat.uc.pt!news.rccn.net!nova.puug.pt!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!simtek.co.uk!news Thu May 11 13:29:17 1995
Path: gnu.mat.uc.pt!news.rccn.net!nova.puug.pt!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!simtek.co.uk!news
From: Simtek News <ne...@simtek.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Here is Simtek's email address
Date: 10 May 1995 17:04:57 +0100
Organization: Simtek Research / Simtek Grand Prix
Lines: 13
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There was a thread recently about team email addresses, with one
person saying he knew ours but wasn't sure whether we wanted it
broadcast to the whole world... it's OK with us!
sgp...@simtek.co.uk is the normal address to use for info. requests
and the like; ne...@simtek.co.uk will be used by us for postings like
this one.
Please note that, for reasons of time and confidentiality, we won't
necessarily be able to deal with all requests for information.
--
Simtek News
From gnu.mat.uc.pt!news.rccn.net!nova.puug.pt!EU.net!uknet!doc.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!simtek.co.uk!news Fri May 19 12:01:19 1995
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From: Simtek News <ne...@simtek.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Simtek: views on Barcelona
Date: 16 May 1995 17:56:04 +0100
Organization: Simtek Research / Simtek Grand Prix
Lines: 111
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This is a modified version of a column I write for a Japanese magazine
after each race. It's quite long; let us know if it's of interest or
not (so I know whether to post more of them after future races).
Nick
----------------------------------------------------------------------
SPANISH GRAND PRIX
These race reports tend to be biased towards Jos Verstappen. I make
no apology for this as I race engineer Jos, assisted by Humphrey
Corbett, and Rod Nelson engineers Mimmo Schiattarella. Therefore, most
of my attention and memories of each weekend are of my experiences
with Jos.
Having had gearbox problems in the first three Grand Prix of the year
I was determined that we should find a solution for Barcelona. We had
modified the mechanical side of the automatic change system and were
reasonably confident that we had found the problem. I had also
modified the suspension characteristics of Jos' car to try to improve
the stability based on our findings in Imola.
Friday morning started with intermittent rain. Jos was driving
spectacularly and was for a long time third quickest in the damp
conditions. I watched on the monitors as the camera followed him on
two of the most spectacular laps that I have ever seen from a Formula
One car. It was a great shame that more people were not able to see
them, although I believe that Dutch TV showed them over the weekend.
Jos reported that the car felt much more stable than at Imola and our
confidence was very high. Mimmo, who did not try Jos' new suspension,
was having some problems with understeer. As the suspension change
was designed to make the car understeer more, we decided not to try it
with Mimmo. However, analysis of the gearbox data revealed that we
still had problems and I became concerned that we might have problems
in qualifying. Unfortunately, this turned out to be true and Jos had
to stop after about six laps as he had destroyed his gearbox, although
he had managed to get to 18th position. Mimmo was still complaining
about his balance and ended up 21st.
On Saturday we had further modified the mechanical side of the
automatic change system and rebuilt the gearboxes. However, by the
end of the untimed session, I was again very worried. We were still
seeing considerable problems from the diagnostics of the GCU (gearbox
control unit). I was beginning to wonder whether we would ever solve
this problem.
The weather for qualifying was dry and as soon as Jos went out he
started to get problems with the car jumping out of gear and came in.
When you are approaching a corner at 290 km/h and are braking at over
4G, the last thing you need is the car to jump out of gear as this can
send you straight off due to the reduction in engine braking. We
thought, somewhat hopefully, that there may have been a fault in the
GCU so we changed it and sent him out again. On his 'out' lap he said
over the radio that the problem was still there, but I told him to try
a flying lap anyway and to my surprise he put in reasonable time which
left him 16th on the grid. Mimmo still could not find a good balance
and ended up 22nd on the grid.
My thoughts turned immediately to the gearbox, as it was obvious that
we still had a massive problem and if we did not solve it, an early
race retirement was inevitable. We worked late into the night and
eventually traced the problem to a sequencing fault in the
coordination of the gear change.
Sunday started with clear blue skies and the warm up went reasonably
well, with the gearbox behaving perfectly for the first time in the
season. However, it was becoming obvious that all of the attention
that had been payed to the gearbox over the weekend had meant that we
were not as fast as we had wanted to be. Mimmo had a rear suspension
problem which meant that he did not complete any laps in warm up.
This was a particular problem as we had given him Jos' complete setup
in an attempt to help his situation, and he was now facing a race with
a setup which he had not driven. As the cars went to the grid Jos
suddenly had a problem with his clutch which meant a panic bleed on
the grid with other teams looking at us in amusement. He still was not
happy with it and therefore did not have one of his usual starts.
The race settled down quickly and it was obvious from Jos' lap times
that we had not got the setup right. The race went without incident
until Jos' second pitstop, when he came down the pitlane telling us
that he had no clutch. This meant that after we had refuelled and
changed tyres we had to push him hard down the pitlane whilst he
simultaneously engaged first gear. The car spluttered for about
twenty metres until it just caught and he made it out! The clutch
problem then meant that he lost second gear with about fifteen laps to
go and we became very worried that he wouldn't finish again. However,
he adapted to using third gear in the corners and within a few laps
his time was almost the same as before. Our final drama was with
three laps to go; Mimmo suddenly arrived in the pits complaining of
offset steering. We checked the front and found no problems so I told
him to drive very carefully as there were only three laps left and we
could get a finish. However, as he left we could see the car crabbing
and immediately realised that something must be wrong with the rear
suspension. As I had told him to drive slowly and there were now two
laps to go, I elected to leave him out as I did not feel that he was in
any danger. As it was they both finished, Jos in 12th place and Mimmo
in 15th. This was the team's second ever two car finish, the first
being at Silverstone in 1994.
I am really happy with this result -- not especially with the
performance but with improvements in the gearbox reliability. We know
exactly where we went wrong with the setup and I am now looking
forward to Monaco which is a track which I feel will suit our car very
well.
Nick Wirth
--
Simtek News
From gnu.mat.uc.pt!news.rccn.net!Portugal.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!demon!simtek.co.uk!news Sat Jun 3 16:58:59 1995
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From: Simtek News <ne...@simtek.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Simtek: views on Monaco
Date: 2 Jun 1995 17:04:41 +0100
Organization: Simtek Research / Simtek Grand Prix
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MONACO GRAND PRIX
With the exception of the 1994 San Marino race, this race weekend was
the worst in Simtek's short history. Everything that could have gone
wrong, did go wrong and we can only try to learn from this experience.
It has to be said that in many ways, it was a miracle that Simtek even
got to Monaco. Unfortunately, a major new backer of the team, with
whom I had signed a contract before the season, has finally pulled out
and left a large hole in our finances. A Formula One team is
supported by a chain-like structure consisting of a number of
sponsors, technical partners and investors each of which contribute to
the total budget that we require. When any one link in this chain is
removed, it puts the whole project into jeopardy which is exactly what
has occurred.
I arrived Wednesday afternoon with Ian Stone, who is Jos Verstappen's
lead mechanic. Ian was just recovering from a virus known in England
as 'Chicken Pox' and decided that when the Doctor had asked him to
rest, what he actually meant was to rest in Monaco... with hindsight,
I think he should have stayed in bed.
Usually, the cars are more or less ready for the first day's practice,
but trouble was already brewing when a problem with our throttle
blipper, which helps the automatic down changes, caused a minor
failure inside Jos' engine, which then had to be changed before we had
even started. Ian and his crew finished at 5.30AM on Thursday. My
Team Manager, Charlie Moody has a theory that when a weekend starts
badly, it never usually gets any better. I now think he is correct.
Thursday started and Jos immediately was complaining of harsh
gearchanges, which sent us all into a depression. We thought that we
had sorted things out at Barcelona; however, when we examined the
data, we discovered a new problem. We tried to send him out again,
but he then found he could not select any gears. This turned out to
be because of a mechanical failure in the hydraulic actuator which is
buried in the gearbox. Jos was effectively out for the rest of the
untimed session as the boys pulled the car apart to fix it.
Meanwhile, Mimmo was running and doing a good job - he eventually
ended up 15th in the session and was confidant of improving in
qualifying. He was, however, consistently experiencing gearchange
errors and this was affecting his performance. Jos was annoyed with
me for not letting him drive Mimmo's car, but I decided that as Mimmo
was going well I would not risk his car by letting Jos drive it - we
could have then gone into first qualifying with no cars.
Qualifying came and Jos's car was rebuilt but still did not work.
Using Mimmo's car Charlie Moody and I decided that the fairest way was
to let Mimmo do three timed laps, then put Jos in for three timed laps
and then repeat the exercise. We felt they would then both get a go
at the beginning and end of the session, when the track conditions
could be different. Mimmo went out and did a reasonable job, but I
knew he could go better in his second runs. Jos then jumped in and,
after just beating Mimmo's time, crashed into the wall effectively
ending our qualifying. It was a silly mistake which came from his
frustration at not having driven in the morning, but I felt very sorry
for Mimmo who could not now improve.
Friday was spent regrouping and preparing for Saturday's running. Jos
was very keen to get running and went straight out and crashed. The
car was also damaged by the incompetent marshals when they put it on
the recovery truck. The mechanics all worked frantically to repair
the rear suspension, front and rear wings, bodywork and underwing in
time for final qualifying. By this stage Jos had completed about 6 or
7 flying laps of Monaco. Mimmo was not going as well as he was on
Thursday and had basically gone in the wrong direction with his
setup. Jos realised that I would not put him in Mimmo's car again
today. His car was finished (held together with tape) with about 6
minutes to go in qualifying so he did not get a good run in. We ended
up with Mimmo in 20th position and Jos in 23rd - a complete disaster
as our rivals Minardi (who we were generally quicker than) had
qualified far better.
Sunday arrived and Jos was hoping to do a good warmup. However, he
came in after two laps (running total 11 laps...) complaining about the
engine. A quick examination by our Cosworth engineers led to them
asking for an engine change, with four hours to go until the green
light. Again, the mechanics worked very hard and with a few minutes
to spare Jos drove to the line. He arrived still complaining of an
electrical problem, so we changed all the black boxes on the grid. At
the first start, Jos did not get off the line as he could not select a
gear when the red light came on. Mimmo had a similar software problem
and was stranded just down from the first corner. For some reason
that we still do not understand, his car was not recovered by the
wonderful marshals before the restart and therefore he could take no
further part. Although we got Jos' car ready for the restart, when he
came to select a gear for the formation lap, the whole gearbox
basically exploded inside and that was that.
As a final surprise, the marshals recovered Mimmo's car with a flat
bed truck using a small wooded wedge under one of the front wheels to
secure it instead of tying it down. Unsurprisingly, when the truck
attempted to drive up the hill to the transporters after the race, the
car fell off the truck (from about 1 metre up) breaking its already
fragile gearbox and suspension and rolling down into some
pedestrians. The impact also cracked the carbon fibre chassis.
By now many of you will have heard the news that Simtek will not be
attending the Canadian Grand Prix. This was a difficult decision for
me to make, but I have not yet received the necessary support to do a
good job. We are the only F1 team who has not tested, yet the
performance potential of the car is clear. We have the ability to
solve all of our reliability problems, but this also takes testing.
We are also about the only team who does not yet have a spare car, so
when problems come we can't fix them.
Jos Verstappen is too good a driver and we are too good a team for us
to carry on like this, gradually getting worse. There is only one
thing that will help now, as I am not prepared to continue unless we
get the financial support we need.
I sincerely hope that all of our efforts will be successful and the
small but bright light that is Simtek is not put out.
Nick Wirth
--
Simtek News
=====
And now for the joke:
> Newsgroups: rec.autos.tech,alt.folklore.computers
> Subject: Re: Who are the 2 Niklaus Wirth's
> Date: 26 Oct 1994 06:55:24 GMT
> In article <lewistotC...@netcom.com> lewi...@netcom.com
> (John Lewis) writes:
> [ ... ]
>> Just a quick question.
>> Niklaus Wirth #1 is the inventor of the Pascal programming lanquage.
>> Niklaus Wirth #2 is the chief designer of Simtek F1 cars.
>> Is there a relation?
> Yes. The reason that the Simtek cars don't do well in races is that they
> were designed for teaching F1 racing.
> --
> Dan Prener (pre...@watson.ibm.com)
--
http://www.mat.uc.pt/~rps/f1/ an ex-tifoso since 95/11/13
.pt is Portugal| `Whom the gods love die young'-Menander (342-292 BC)
Europe | Villeneuve 50-82, Toivonen 56-86, Senna 60-94
Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro
> I took a look at my archives, at Dejanews
> (fruitlessly. They seem to have erased their 1995 database)
Actually it was only the not unusual problems (bugs ?) which
cause that sometimes searches that should give the same result
don't. I have now found the posts. URLs:
http://www.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=102397347
http://www.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=104409077
http://www.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=102397346
http://www.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=103570195
http://www.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=102669902
Simtek also posted 2 articles in rec.autos.sport.info:
http://www.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=103569653
http://www.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=104408622
(These two articles were about the financial difficulties which
marked the end of the team.)
Simon Turner
r...@merlin.mat.uc.pt "Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro" writes:
> Apart from these posts, I also mailed Nick Wirth once, and I received
> a reply (and a promise to pass along the email to Nick who was in
> Barcelona at the time) from someone named Simon Turner (this name
> seems familiar, but I don't recall anything else about him (and Who's
> Who (http://www.mcz.com/f1/f1who.htm) doesn't mention it either.
That'll be me; I remember your e-mail to Nick. You won't find me in a
list of current F1 people, since I'm not a direct employee of any team
(although I still work in motor racing, and still do work for some F1
teams).
I still lurk in rasf1, but I find the enormous volume of posts and the
appalling signal-to-noise ratio makes it too much like hard work
trying to keep up or contribute to the discussions: that's why I
rarely post (although I can usually be relied upon to crop up if
something interesting comes up about Simtek or Simtek drivers, e.g.
Roland Ratzenberger[1]).
I really hope rasf1.moderated succeeds, to try and provide a more
focused group; I miss the early days of rasf1 (I started reading in
1994, and I've been watching the group's steady decline with dismay).
These days I can rarely summon up the enthusiasm even to scan the
headers.
> BTW, if you read this till the end, you will find a joke.
I missed that one! Nick would probably enjoy it...
Simon
[1] Please note that I do *not* find Zé Fonseca's interminable wibbling
about FIA conspiracies to kill drivers at all interesting, even though
they do all seem to mention Roland somewhere amongst the ranting! 8-)
--
Simon Turner DoD #0461
si...@ashes.demon.co.uk
Violence doesn't solve anything. What am I saying??
Violence solves *everything*! -- Sledge Hammer
Emma
>
>I really hope rasf1.moderated succeeds, to try and provide a more
>focused group; I miss the early days of rasf1 (I started reading in
>1994, and I've been watching the group's steady decline with dismay).
We all know the reasons why newsgroups have expanded (not just this one)
but personally I find it rather insulting to have people constantly
going on about how good it was in the 'old days'. Many interesting
people have joined this group in the last couple of years, yes we have
the usual problem with trolls, etc. but if people don't bother to post
then they too are responsible for the groups decline.
--
Emma
"I remember growing up thinking that winning the Monaco Grand Prix
was his job"
Damon Hill talking about his father Graham
Mark J. Frusciante
>Simon Turner <si...@ashes.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>I really hope rasf1.moderated succeeds, to try and provide a more
>>focused group; I miss the early days of rasf1 (I started reading in
>>1994, and I've been watching the group's steady decline with dismay).
>
>We all know the reasons why newsgroups have expanded (not just this one)
>but personally I find it rather insulting to have people constantly
>going on about how good it was in the 'old days'. Many interesting
>people have joined this group in the last couple of years, yes we have
>the usual problem with trolls, etc. but if people don't bother to post
>then they too are responsible for the groups decline.
Actually it's still "our" fault for not giving the "quality" posters
sufficient reverence and deference. That's why they need their own
club...
Mark
http://www.pipeline.com/~opus
Preserve Freedom of Expression: Vote NO on R.A.S.F1.M
paul
<Em...@excalvehs.demon.co.uk> writes
>Simon Turner <si...@ashes.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>I really hope rasf1.moderated succeeds, to try and provide a more
>>focused group; I miss the early days of rasf1 (I started reading in
>>1994, and I've been watching the group's steady decline with dismay).
>
>We all know the reasons why newsgroups have expanded (not just this one)
>but personally I find it rather insulting to have people constantly
>going on about how good it was in the 'old days'. Many interesting
>people have joined this group in the last couple of years, yes we have
>the usual problem with trolls, etc. but if people don't bother to post
>then they too are responsible for the groups decline.
>
A. Six. One to change the bulb, five to sing about how good the old bulb
was.
--
Paul B
Go Johnny Go
Simon Turner
Em...@excalvehs.demon.co.uk "Emma" writes:
> We all know the reasons why newsgroups have expanded (not just this one)
> but personally I find it rather insulting to have people constantly
> going on about how good it was in the 'old days'. Many interesting
> people have joined this group in the last couple of years, yes we have
> the usual problem with trolls, etc. but if people don't bother to post
> then they too are responsible for the groups decline.
I'm sorry you feel insulted, Emma: it certainly wasn't my intention.
Many good people have joined rasf1 over the past few years, and many
have left: Usenet has always been thus. I'm not trying to cast
aspersions on the quality of person found in the group these days.
However, rasf1 is now *enormous*. It typically runs at 300-400 posts
per day, in over 100 separate threads; this weekend, it has been twice
that (710 posts in 200 threads yesterday). I find this volume highly
offputting, as I can't justify the time taken to trawl through the
posts looking for the gems: rasf1 is only one of many groups I take.
Most other groups would have split into multiple sub-groups years ago:
some people in rasf1 have been extremely resistant to any suggestions
of a split, and it hasn't happened, with the result that it has just
carried on growing -- it now has 5-10 times more posts per day than
almost all the other groups I read, most of which have split over the
years when they became unmanageable.
*I* wish rasf1 would split: that's *my* *opinion*. It carries no more
weight than yours. (You would possibly argue that, as a non-poster,
my opinion has no value compared to yours; but I hope not.)
I'm not remotely interested in much of the discussion in rasf1, and I
never have been: that's my problem, not yours. But I'm afraid that I
no longer find slogging through rasf1 sufficiently rewarding to
justify the time taken: you (and many others) obviously do. Please
don't feel insulted by the fact that *I* preferred the days when I
*did* find it rewarding.
I tend to agree that the failure of some people to post "quality"
articles (whatever they may be) is part of the group's problem: but
for me, the "noise" in this group is so overwhelming that the "signal"
is entirely lost. Even if the number of "quality" posts were to
double overnight (which is unlikely), they would still be swamped by
the vastness of the group's throughput. I feel excluded from rasf1
because of the sheer volume; there's probably just as much good stuff
in the group as there ever was, if not more, but I just don't have the
time and the will power to try and find it.
Given that splitting rasf1 looks unlikely, I'm reduced to wanting
rasf1.m to succeed, simply so that there exists a newsgroup in which
people can discuss F1 without having to subject themselves to the
sprawling vastness that is today's rasf1.
I have no idea how you and the other regulars manage to make this
group work for you: I'm happy for you that you do, but I'm sad for me
(and many others) that it no longer works for us.
Simon
Simon Turner
op...@pipeline.com "Mark J. Frusciante" writes:
> Actually it's still "our" fault for not giving the "quality" posters
> sufficient reverence and deference. That's why they need their own
> club...
I don't know what I've done to provoke this from you, Mark: but this
seems a pretty silly comment, and one which undermines your arguments
against rasf1.m. Petty insults are unlikely to convince anyone.
Emma
>
>I'm sorry you feel insulted, Emma: it certainly wasn't my intention.
I'm sorry too Simon I wasn't having a go at you, if it had been anyone
else I would have said the same things.
>Many good people have joined rasf1 over the past few years, and many
>have left: Usenet has always been thus. I'm not trying to cast
>aspersions on the quality of person found in the group these days.
We know all about the time constraints that people have these days and
the amount of posts arriving in here.
It just seems that whenever someone puts forth this view (that RASF1 has
gone downhill) it is a person that has stopped posting, surely if you
have a problem with the group it is better to air those views (and try
to do something about it) than to become a dissatisfied lurker?
>I have no idea how you and the other regulars manage to make this
>group work for you: I'm happy for you that you do, but I'm sad for me
>(and many others) that it no longer works for us.
Most people have killfiles or scoring systems that help in getting rid
of the rubbish, we are trying to go out of our way to help make this a
nicer place.
I don't know if RASF1M will become the 'dream' newsgroup that everyone
thinks it will (what is to stop those same spammers, trolls and non
spoiler users getting through?) but until that place happens then this
is all we have so we might aswell make the best of it.
--
Emma
"If I'm going to die, which I probably will, I hope it's doing something
I want to do."
Bernie Ecclestone
Richard Dadd
>
>
> Actually it's still "our" fault for not giving the "quality" posters
> sufficient reverence and deference. That's why they need their own
> club...
So shut the fuck up then, maybe they'll hang about.
Christine Johnston
> It just seems that whenever someone puts forth this view (that RASF1 has
> gone downhill) it is a person that has stopped posting, surely if you
> have a problem with the group it is better to air those views (and try
> to do something about it) than to become a dissatisfied lurker?
Hypocrit. Your previous response to differing views was:
'We can post whatever we feel like and if you don't like it you can just
leave'
And now here you are inviting dissatisfied people to air their views and
pretending you'll pay the slightest bit of attention to them.
Hahahahaha
Emma
>Emma <Em...@excalvehs.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> It just seems that whenever someone puts forth this view (that RASF1 has
>> gone downhill) it is a person that has stopped posting, surely if you
>> have a problem with the group it is better to air those views (and try
>> to do something about it) than to become a dissatisfied lurker?
>
>Hypocrit. Your previous response to differing views was:
>
>'We can post whatever we feel like and if you don't like it you can just
>leave'
When exactly did I say that?
>And now here you are inviting dissatisfied people to air their views and
>pretending you'll pay the slightest bit of attention to them.
>Hahahahaha
Christine I am trying to make an effort to change why don't you do the
same?
--
Emma
Preserve wildlife - pickle a squirrel...
Simon Turner
Em...@excalvehs.demon.co.uk "Emma" writes:
> It just seems that whenever someone puts forth this view (that RASF1 has
> gone downhill) it is a person that has stopped posting,
That's almost inevitable really: as the group changes, those people
who dislike the new version (who see it as Going Downhill) will find
that they enjoy the group (reading and/or posting) less: as their
enjoyment wanes, they stop posting. Some will sort-of lurk; others
simply vanish, never to be seen again. That's the nature of Usenet.
> surely if you
> have a problem with the group it is better to air those views (and try
> to do something about it) than to become a dissatisfied lurker?
Probably. Over the years, though, I've seen many people try to "do
something" about their problems with rasf1, and they are generally
toasted to a crisp by those people who like the new look of the
group. After such a reception, they often slink away.
My experience has tended to be that individuals *can't* change the
nature of an evolving group to fit in with their desires; unless your
problem is a straightforward one (like not liking binaries), there's
little point in trying. It's easier to sigh regretfully and walk away.
> >I have no idea how you and the other regulars manage to make this
> >group work for you: I'm happy for you that you do, but I'm sad for me
> >(and many others) that it no longer works for us.
>
> Most people have killfiles or scoring systems that help in getting rid
> of the rubbish, we are trying to go out of our way to help make this a
> nicer place.
I can see that killfiles and "valuable contributor/keyword" flags can
make the group somewhat less unwieldy: but you would have to killfile
an *awful* lot of people to reduce rasf1's volume to sensible
proportions. Taking Spider's apparent approach of killing everything
and grabbing only those bits which fit your "Good Thing" filters will
work, but you run the risk of missing out on a lot of the good stuff.
As a case in point, Spider's scheme would almost certainly have missed
Nick Wirth's posts in 1995 (you would have been unlikely to flag
Simtek as a "must-see" indicator 8-).
There has to be a better way -- the usual way of things is that groups
split up into several subgroups (as happened with rec.autos.sport when
*it* became too huge). The subgroups carry on until they get too
huge, then they also split; etc. etc. For reasons that baffle me, the
loud voices in rasf1 have always shouted down any suggestion of
splitting the group up; I sometimes get the feeling that some people
here think Usenet should still be one huge group where everyone in the
whole world discusses everything, simply to avoid duplication of posts
which happen to be on more than one topic.
> I don't know if RASF1M will become the 'dream' newsgroup that everyone
> thinks it will (what is to stop those same spammers, trolls and non
> spoiler users getting through?) but until that place happens then this
> is all we have so we might aswell make the best of it.
I personally suspect that rasf1m will not be anyone's dream group: but
even if the only thing it produces is reduced volume, I for one would
welcome it. Of course it will still get the trolls, spammers etc. --
but they don't produce most of the volume, and I find them fairly easy
to ignore.
I'm not entirely convinced by the idea of moderating the group:
moderated discussion groups (as opposed to "announce" groups) *can*
work pretty well, but it's far from guaranteed. But, given that some
people want a big-8 group to discuss F1 (in a generally on-topic
manner), and feel that rasf1 no longer fits the bill, what choice is
there? Any suggestions of a split get shouted down, and simply
creating an unmoderated rasf1.ontopic would never get past the folks
in news.groups -- something *different* has to be tried.
rasf1m is that different something, and I wish it well. Others don't:
but wouldn't it be a boring place if we all agreed with each other?
Christine Johnston
> When exactly did I say that?
Jeez, it was only 3 weeks ago.....
>
> >And now here you are inviting dissatisfied people to air their views and
> >pretending you'll pay the slightest bit of attention to them.
> >Hahahahaha
>
> Christine I am trying to make an effort to change why don't you do the
> same?
I wasn't the one posting abuse back to posters who just wanted to talk
F1, babe.
But to go in a couple of weeks from sheer intolerance to encouraging
people to come forth and air their views probably won't be taken
seriously by the people you toasted along the way. And way too late for
those who moved down the rasf1m road.
neander...@hotmail.com
si...@ashes.demon.co.uk wrote:
> In article <o6CM2LA8...@excalvehs.demon.co.uk>
> Em...@excalvehs.demon.co.uk "Emma" writes:
>
> > It just seems that whenever someone puts forth this view (that RASF1 has
> > gone downhill) it is a person that has stopped posting,
>
> That's almost inevitable really: as the group changes, those people
> who dislike the new version (who see it as Going Downhill) will find
> that they enjoy the group (reading and/or posting) less: as their
> enjoyment wanes, they stop posting. Some will sort-of lurk; others
> simply vanish, never to be seen again. That's the nature of Usenet.
Og here.
Si-mon for-get say, some go ex-tinct! Og say much worse go lurk, go
van-ish. Og not wish on Og worst en-e-my.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Emma
>Emma <Em...@excalvehs.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> When exactly did I say that?
>Jeez, it was only 3 weeks ago.....
Having now been back through the posts I made on the subject of RASF1M I
cannot find anything where I said 'We can post whatever we feel like and
if you don't like it you can just leave' I do believe that I agreed with
Lona and Sven that we would still be posting to this group whatever
happened in the future.
>> Christine I am trying to make an effort to change why don't you do the
>> same?
>I wasn't the one posting abuse back to posters who just wanted to talk
>F1, babe.
>But to go in a couple of weeks from sheer intolerance to encouraging
>people to come forth and air their views probably won't be taken
>seriously by the people you toasted along the way.
If I have ever 'toasted' anyone for their opinions of F1 then I
apologise. If anyone feels that I did 'toast' them then they are free to
e-mail me and I will apologise directly.
However it seems that I can't win where you are concerned. If I abuse
people (as you claim I have) you complain yet if I try to change you
also complain.
>And way too late for
>those who moved down the rasf1m road.
I cannot believe that the proposal to create RASF1M was all my fault!
I have never tried to stop the RASF1M, I have even said that I will vote
yes to help the people who are starting it to get what they want.
--
Emma
www.excalvehs.demon.co.uk/alt.htm
The Alternative Gallery
Updated (Almost) Daily!
Emma
>Em...@excalvehs.demon.co.uk "Emma" writes:
>
>rasf1m is that different something, and I wish it well. Others don't:
>but wouldn't it be a boring place if we all agreed with each other?
Yep the world would be boring if we all agreed!
Thanks for letting us into your views, I want to see RASF1M created not
only because it is needed but also because those people have put so much
work into get it started.
I have likened 'our' groups to a couple of others in Usenet before,
these are Alt.Fan.Pratchett and Alt.Books.Pratchett. AFP is for the fans
of Prachetts books - they discuss everything. ABP is just for the
discussion of the books (I know that the Alt groups are suposed to work
differently to the Rec ones). They seem to work in harmony, that is what
I see happening to RASF1/M with everybody (hopefully) contributing to
both.
Christine Johnston
> However it seems that I can't win where you are concerned. If I abuse
> people (as you claim I have) you complain yet if I try to change you
> also complain.
You miss the point. You talked drivel for so long that anyone looking
for an F1 post has long since stopped reading your postings. I had no
idea you felt like turning over a new leaf as I've never read any of
them - I was reading Simon's posts. And your attempts to distance
yourself from your previous stance and come over all innocent is like
trying to watch someone backpeddle on a penny farthing.
I'm not complaining that you've decided to change but, you've only been
at it, what? a week or so? Don't expect me to start jumping up and
down.
Irwin Sabath
>On Tue, 09 Mar 99 17:54:18 GMT, si...@ashes.demon.co.uk (Simon Turner)
>wrote:
>
>>Any suggestions of a split get shouted down, and simply
>>creating an unmoderated rasf1.ontopic would never get past the folks
>>in news.groups -- something *different* has to be tried.
>
>rasf1.social ????
>rasf1.chatter ????<
rasf1.spider
--
Irwin
t.i.n.s.t.a.a.f.l.
(Helping victims of conventional wisdom)
David Betts
>
>I wonder what happened to that new and revised RFD?
The unfortunate delay is due to problems communicating with Thomas. If
he can't get himself back on line very shortly we will have to push
ahead without him for the time being.
Meanwhile, on a related theme, anyone know when Bumble's getting back
on line? Seems a shame he wasn't here for Ralf's best result of the
season :-).
David Betts
"I don't think God is in heaven this weekend. I think he's at
Goodwood. And if he isn't, he's crackers" - Canon Lionel Webber
Emma
>
>I'm not complaining that you've decided to change but, you've only been
>at it, what? a week or so? Don't expect me to start jumping up and
>down.
Christine, you can be assured that I have never, and will never, expect
you to do anything for me.
--
Emma
"I knew I was going to win because two of my girlfriends told me"
Eddie Irvine after Melbourne 1999
Simon Turner
Em...@excalvehs.demon.co.uk "Emma" writes:
> I have likened 'our' groups to a couple of others in Usenet before,
> these are Alt.Fan.Pratchett and Alt.Books.Pratchett. AFP is for the fans
> of Prachetts books - they discuss everything. ABP is just for the
> discussion of the books
An interesting parallel: but both groups are in different hierarchies,
which sort of defines their roles. rasf1 has, to a certain extent,
gone from being alt.books.f1 to being both alt.books.f1 *and*
alt.fan.f1, all rolled into one.
I assume one group was created after the other, and attracted many of
the people from the original group to join. If you were around at the
time, was there a similar amount of arguing/mud-slinging then?
I'm trying to work out whether rasf1m's opponents are mostly upset
about having a second group at all, or about that group being
moderated; although most of the arguing now seems to be about the
varying standards of what will and will not be allowed by the
moderators, it seems that many of the opponents just don't want a
second group at all, for fear that some "valuable" people will find
the second group better than rasf1, and will defect to the "rival
camp".
I can cope with the first argument, but the second one smacks of
throwing tantrums because some of your friends want to play a
different game today.
> They seem to work in harmony, that is what
> I see happening to RASF1/M with everybody (hopefully) contributing to
> both.
I hope so; time (and revised RFDs) will tell!
Simon Turner
> On Tue, 09 Mar 99 17:54:18 GMT, si...@ashes.demon.co.uk (Simon Turner)
> wrote:
>
> >Any suggestions of a split get shouted down, and simply
> >creating an unmoderated rasf1.ontopic would never get past the folks
> >in news.groups -- something *different* has to be tried.
>
> rasf1.social ????
> rasf1.chatter ????
Nice idea; but I reckon it might be hard to get such a group through on
its own, rather than as part of a general split into several rasf1.*
groups. (It *might* be possible, but I suspect its charter would be
too vague for it to gain acceptance as a properly focused sub-group.)
I also suspect that *some* people would fail to use the new group for
their chat/banter, claiming that it *was* vaguely F1 related and
should therefore in the main group; and given the way many off-topic
threads start as on-topic ones, how would a thread move to .chatter
once it had got too far off-topic? Without a mechanism to prevent
posts from arriving in rasf1, no amount of setting Followup-To headers
would ensure that the whole thread moved, so it would then probably
split into two threads in different groups; and trying to find a
mechanism to *make* the threads move just leads us in the direction of
moderation.
Hmmm.
Simon Turner
> Actually anything worth reading gets discussed by those people who are
> set to retrieve. I keep all headers and my server keeps messages for
> weeks. I then retrieve any interesting threads.
OK if you have a nice server that keeps posts for a reasonable time:
not everyone has that luxury. Yes, there are other servers, and also
Dejanews: but it all starts to get a bit awkward then. Many people
won't have the inclination to hunt down the threads they're interested
in, once they have missed the start.
> "Participation, not denigration is what is wanted." - paul
But if your problem is that the enormous number of posts makes using
the group difficult, participation is also difficult -- and it makes
the problem worse!
Pete Fenelon
> I'm trying to work out whether rasf1m's opponents are mostly upset
> about having a second group at all, or about that group being
> moderated; although most of the arguing now seems to be about the
> varying standards of what will and will not be allowed by the
> moderators, it seems that many of the opponents just don't want a
> second group at all, for fear that some "valuable" people will find
> the second group better than rasf1, and will defect to the "rival
> camp".
There appear to be several streams of argument:
1. The Pseudo-Libertarian. "I am opposed to moderated groups, I believe
in freedom, and I want to deprive you of your freedom to create
moderated groups.... oooof... my brain hurts now.."
2. The Off Topic Spewer. "I am opposed to this moderated group because I
believe I will be excluded by virtue of the style of my postings. Wibble.
Here's some interesting things in my desk. There were good programs on
the telly last night. Let's start a cascade."
3. The "Ship Arriving Too Late To Save A Drowning Witch". "I am opposed to
this moderated group because I believe it will deprive RASF1 of on-topic
postings."
4. The Halfwit. "I am opposed to this moderated group because I believe it is a
conspiracy on behalf of the moderators."
5. The Cynic. "I am opposed to this moderated group because I believe the
weak charter dooms it to be no better than RASF1."
6. The news.groupie: "I merely like to get involved in tedious and longwided
arguments."
7. The Arsehole: "I like making ad-hominem attacks and/or using gutter
language. By the way, here's a binary, you Scumsucker fan f*ckwits."
8. The NRA member: "The USA is the whole world and my First Amendment rights
are being infringed."
pete (Cynic, if you must know)
--
Pete Fenelon, 3 Beckside Gardens, York, YO10 3TX, UK (pete.f...@zetnet.co.uk)
``there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas''
Peter Scoular
> i...@m.canadian "Spider" writes:
>> Actually anything worth reading gets discussed by those people who are
>> set to retrieve. I keep all headers and my server keeps messages for
>> weeks. I then retrieve any interesting threads.
>
>OK if you have a nice server that keeps posts for a reasonable time:
>not everyone has that luxury. Yes, there are other servers, and also
>Dejanews: but it all starts to get a bit awkward then. Many people
>won't have the inclination to hunt down the threads they're interested
>in, once they have missed the start.
>
>> "Participation, not denigration is what is wanted." - paul
>
>But if your problem is that the enormous number of posts makes using
>the group difficult, participation is also difficult -- and it makes
>the problem worse!
>
fashion to extract the sort of news you desire....however like most
things you have to believe the result will be worth the effort.
regards
--
Peter :-)
Keep the faith
Julie Miles
> There appear to be several streams of argument:
>
<snip>
>
> pete (Cynic, if you must know)
LOL! Thanks, Pete, that was priceless.
Cheers,
Julie
--
Julie Miles
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Never ascribe to malice
that which can be adequately explained by stupidity
Irwin Sabath
>On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 05:52:48 GMT, ins...@airmail.net (Irwin Sabath)
>wrote:
>
>>>rasf1.social ????
>>>rasf1.chatter ????<
>>
>>rasf1.spider
>>
>>--
>
>You confirm my earlier assertion that you are motivated by personal
>baggage Mr Sabath. Give it a rest will you please. One would have
>thought that you were above petty sniping.<
mr spider,
you confirm my earlier opinions of you that any commentary of your
postings is "personal."
Wake up.
It's your content.
Give IT a rest
Ron
Is there a prize for having the last say every time?
If so, I think you must have won it by now.
On Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:15:44 GMT, ins...@airmail.net (Irwin Sabath)
wrote:
>i...@m.canadian (Spider) wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 05:52:48 GMT, ins...@airmail.net (Irwin Sabath)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>>rasf1.social ????
>>>>rasf1.chatter ????<
>>>
>>>rasf1.spider
>>>
>>>--
>>
>>You confirm my earlier assertion that you are motivated by personal
>>baggage Mr Sabath. Give it a rest will you please. One would have
>>thought that you were above petty sniping.<
>
>mr spider,
>you confirm my earlier opinions of you that any commentary of your
>postings is "personal."
>
>Wake up.
>
>It's your content.
>Give IT a rest
--
Ron