Ferrari chassis numbers
Anand Nene
so drastically? Why was 2006 challenger 248 and not F2006?
Why is 2007 challenger F2007?
Here are all the hugely varying Ferrari chassis numbers from 1950:
50's to 70. 70s' to 95 95 to 2007
======================================================================
Chassis: 125 Chassis: 312/69 Chassis: 412T1B
Chassis: 166S Chassis: 312B Chassis: 412T2
Chassis: 275 Chassis: 312B2 Chassis: F310
Chassis: 375 Chassis: 312B3 Chassis: F310/2
Chassis: 375 Twin Wall Special Chassis: 312T Chassis: F310B
Chassis: 212 Chassis: 312T2 Chassis: F300
Chassis: 500 Chassis: 312T3 Chassis: F399
Chassis: 166/F2 Chassis: 312T4 Chassis: F1-2000
Chassis: 125/F2 Chassis: 312T5 Chassis: F2001
Chassis: 553 Chassis: 312T6 Chassis: F2001B
Chassis: 166C Chassis: 126CK Chassis: F2002
Chassis: 625 Chassis: 126C2 Chassis: F2002B
Chassis: 625 (555) Chassis: 126C2B Chassis: F2003-GA
Chassis: 625 (735/555) Chassis: 126C3 Chassis: F2004
Chassis: 553 Squalo Chassis: 126C4 Chassis: F2004M
Chassis: 555 Supersqualo Chassis: 156/85 Chassis: F2005
Chassis: D50 Chassis: F186 Chassis: F2004M V8
Chassis: 801 Chassis: F187 Chassis: 248 F1
Chassis: Dino 246 Chassis: F187/8 Chassis: F2007
Chassis: Dino 246P Chassis: 639
Chassis: Dino 156P Chassis: 640
Chassis: Dino 156 Chassis: 641
Chassis: 156 Chassis: 641/2
Chassis: 158 Chassis: 642
Chassis: 1512 Chassis: 643
Chassis: 312 Chassis: F92A
Chassis: 158/246 Chassis: F92AT
Chassis: 312/69 Chassis: F93A
Chassis: 312B Chassis: 412T1
Luigi Topolino
<anandn...@gmx.net> wrote:
>Ok, what's the deal? How are they numbered?
You've listed model names/types, not chassis numbers.
>Why do they keep changing so drastically?
Whimsy.
>Why was 2006 challenger 248 and not F2006?
To note the BMIA legislated change in engine format.
>Why is 2007 challenger F2007?
"F"errari, "2007"AD.
...Not one of them a chassis number.
--
"...Luigi follow only the Ferraris."
Hell and High Water
tif...@mindspring.com says...
> ...Not one of them a chassis number.
Like he said, chassis numbers.
Exactly...
-Bob
Phil Newnham
> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 18:13:39 +0000 (UTC), Anand Nene
> <anandn...@gmx.net> wrote:
>> Ok, what's the deal? How are they numbered?
>
> You've listed model names/types, not chassis numbers.
>
>> Why do they keep changing so drastically?
>
> Whimsy.
>
>> Why was 2006 challenger 248 and not F2006?
>
> To note the BMIA legislated change in engine format.
ROFL. And not because they wanted a 2.4l V8, and were so pleased to have
one they named the car after it?
--
Phil
Anand Nene
>>Ok, what's the deal? How are they numbered?
>
> You've listed model names/types, not chassis numbers.
Aren't chassis numbers generally the model numbers?
>>Why is 2007 challenger F2007?
>
> "F"errari, "2007"AD.
Oh I knew that. Wondered why it wasn't 250 or something of that kind?
>
>>Here are all the hugely varying Ferrari chassis numbers from 1950:
>>
>>50's to 70. 70s' to 95 95 to 2007
>>======================================================================
>>Model: 125 Model: 312/69 Model: 412T1B
>>Model: 166S Model: 312B Model: 412T2
>>Model: 275 Model: 312B2 Model: F310
>>Model: 375 Model: 312B3 Model: F310/2
>>Model: 375 Twin Wall Special Model: 312T Model: F310B
>>Model: 212 Model: 312T2 Model: F300
>>Model: 500 Model: 312T3 Model: F399
>>Model: 166/F2 Model: 312T4 Model: F1-2000
>>Model: 125/F2 Model: 312T5 Model: F2001
>>Model: 553 Model: 312T6 Model: F2001B
>>Model: 166C Model: 126CK Model: F2002
>>Model: 625 Model: 126C2 Model: F2002B
>>Model: 625 (555) Model: 126C2B Model: F2003-GA
>>Model: 625 (735/555) Model: 126C3 Model: F2004
>>Model: 553 Squalo Model: 126C4 Model: F2004M
>>Model: 555 Supersqualo Model: 156/85 Model: F2005
>>Model: D50 Model: F186 Model: F2004M V8
>>Model: 801 Model: F187 Model: 248 F1
>>Model: Dino 246 Model: F187/8 Model: F2007
>>Model: Dino 246P Model: 639
>>Model: Dino 156P Model: 640
>>Model: Dino 156 Model: 641
>>Model: 156 Model: 641/2
>>Model: 158 Model: 642
>>Model: 1512 Model: 643
>>Model: 312 Model: F92A
>>Model: 158/246 Model: F92AT
>>Model: 312/69 Model: F93A
>>Model: 312B Model: 412T1
>
> ...Not one of them a chassis number.
OK. Wrong assumption fixed. Thanks.
--
"That's the second consecutive Sunday a good race has been spoiled by
necessary penalties, I'm afraid. I mean, you can't even stop and talk to
the policeman and try and talk your way out of that and pretend you're
on your way to your wife having a baby or something, can you You're
nicked and that's it, and you've gotta come in, argue about it later
with the judge."
Phil Newnham
> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 at 18:25 GMT, Luigi Topolino, wrote:
>>> Ok, what's the deal? How are they numbered?
>> You've listed model names/types, not chassis numbers.
>
> Aren't chassis numbers generally the model numbers?
Chassis number = the number stamped on an individual chassis
Model number = the number used to refer to a particular type
In other words, the model number this year is F2007, and there will be
several examples built, which will each have their own chassis number.
--
Phil
Luigi Topolino
wrote:
>Luigi Topolino wrote:
>> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 18:13:39 +0000 (UTC), Anand Nene
>> <anandn...@gmx.net> wrote:
>>> Ok, what's the deal? How are they numbered?
>>
>> You've listed model names/types, not chassis numbers.
>>
>>> Why do they keep changing so drastically?
>>
>> Whimsy.
>>
>>> Why was 2006 challenger 248 and not F2006?
>>
>> To note the BMIA legislated change in engine format.
>
>ROFL. And not because they wanted a 2.4l V8, and were so pleased to have
>one they named the car after it?
Precisely.
SCAFFMAN
"Anand Nene" <anandn...@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:slrnerf8ii.25...@ferrari.ncs...
> Ok, what's the deal? How are they numbered? Why do they keep changing
cos their fekin whingy eytye twats
> so drastically? Why was 2006 challenger 248 and not F2006?
cos 248 is the number of ass shags gay mike took from the pit crew
>
> Why is 2007 challenger F2007?
cos thats how many fia officials they have bribed
Phil Newnham
> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 18:56:07 +0000, Phil Newnham <pnew...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> Luigi Topolino wrote:
>>> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 18:13:39 +0000 (UTC), Anand Nene
>>> <anandn...@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>> Ok, what's the deal? How are they numbered?
>>> You've listed model names/types, not chassis numbers.
>>>
>>>> Why do they keep changing so drastically?
>>> Whimsy.
>>>
>>>> Why was 2006 challenger 248 and not F2006?
>>> To note the BMIA legislated change in engine format.
>> ROFL. And not because they wanted a 2.4l V8, and were so pleased to have
>> one they named the car after it?
>
> Precisely.
You will believe anything so long as it fits your conspiracy, won't you?
--
Phil
CatharticF1
news:MPG.202167943...@news.giganews.com:
Is Mark working you by remote control?
;-p
--
CatharticF1
"What you thought was Freedom is just Greed."
CatharticF1
> Ok, what's the deal? How are they numbered? Why do they keep changing
> so drastically? Why was 2006 challenger 248 and not F2006?
>
> Why is 2007 challenger F2007?
>
Only we Tifoso know - and we're not allowed to tell..
Paul-B
> Hell and High Water <tifo...@OVEcomcast.net> wrote in
> news:MPG.202167943...@news.giganews.com:
>
> > In article <5v8fr21p8r10u4e6g...@4ax.com>,
> > tif...@mindspring.com says...
> >
> >
> >> ...Not one of them a chassis number.
> >
> >
> > Like he said, chassis numbers.
> >
> >
> > Exactly...
>
> Is Mark working you by remote control?
>
> ;-p
'twas ever thus...
--
Paul-B Formula 1 - cheat-free version coming soon.
Doc Knutsen
"Anand Nene" <anandn...@gmx.net> skrev i melding
news:slrnerfbnj.25...@ferrari.ncs...
> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 at 18:25 GMT, Luigi Topolino, wrote:
>>>Ok, what's the deal? How are they numbered?
>>
>> You've listed model names/types, not chassis numbers.
>
> Aren't chassis numbers generally the model numbers?
No, the chassis number is the ID of one particular chassis of a particular
type. Sometimes, it gets confusing, such as with Tyrrell who built just one
chassis type 005 which is numbered 005, but several type 006 chassis.
For an easy to understand selection, consider March: Their type no was the
yaer of manufacture + the category that car was for, ie a 1971 F1 chassis
was 711, a 1980 F3 car was 803, a 1976 Formula B chassis was 76B and so on.
In addition, there were chassis numbers, so that the 26th 1980 Formula 3
chassis would be 803-26 and the first F1 chassis completed in 1973 would be
731-1 (or 001, if thet were planning to build several, such as was needed if
you happened to employ Andrea de Cesaris...
So, can you work out what car would be called 693-001? and how about 792-11?
And to be really awkward, the March 708?
Good luck!
Doc
Pete Fenelon
> For an easy to understand selection, consider March: Their type no was the
> yaer of manufacture + the category that car was for, ie a 1971 F1 chassis
> was 711, a 1980 F3 car was 803, a 1976 Formula B chassis was 76B and so on.
> In addition, there were chassis numbers, so that the 26th 1980 Formula 3
> chassis would be 803-26 and the first F1 chassis completed in 1973 would be
> 731-1 (or 001, if thet were planning to build several, such as was needed if
> you happened to employ Andrea de Cesaris...
Doc.... don't lead people astray. March chassis spotting is a hard
game for grown-ups. Frank Williams once bought a 'brand new, honest,
guv' 761B from Robin and Max. He found traces of orange paint on
it and it turned out to be a 741 tub that Vittorio Brambilla had
bent, partially reskinned.
I know of one 761 tub that's had three plates on it, and one plate
that's been on three tubs. And that's not counting 761s that became
761Bs, or 751s that became 761s. And you'll never find any 731s in the
works production figures, because they're really rebodied 721Gs. And
there was a shuffle on 701 chassis numbers that I never fully understood
involving at least two retubs and a couple of swaps to make what
appeared at a race fit the customs carnets.
And there are Marches that never had a March chassis number - the
"Orbitor" Indycar based on the 792 and the first batch of "BMW M1Cs."
> So, can you work out what car would be called 693-001? and how about 792-11?
> And to be really awkward, the March 708?
Did 693 actually have an individual chassis number given that there was
only one of it?
Well the 708 was a FFord ;) (So was the 709 wasn't it?)
Still they're not like Lotus who used to just use double-sided sticky
tape to hold the chassis plates on. Perish the thought that they ever
wheeled one car round the back of the paddock, swapped the plates and
had it scrutineered twice because their other car hadn't been finished
yet.... ;)
pete
--
pe...@fenelon.com "it made about as much sense as a polythene sandwich"
Not Bernie Ecclestone
wrote:
>Anand Nene wrote:
>> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 at 18:25 GMT, Luigi Topolino, wrote:
>>>> Ok, what's the deal? How are they numbered?
>>> You've listed model names/types, not chassis numbers.
>>
>> Aren't chassis numbers generally the model numbers?
>
>Chassis number = the number stamped on an individual chassis
Except they have not been "stamped" for many years, and if being
really pedantic the chassis themselves weren't ever stamped, only the
plates riveted to the chassis were.
--
Luigi Topolino
wrote:
>BMW M1C
...Ugly bugger, that.
http://www.marchives.com/gallery/80/March_BMW_M1C_1
Anand Nene
>
>>>>Ok, what's the deal? How are they numbered?
>>>
>>> You've listed model names/types, not chassis numbers.
>>
>> Aren't chassis numbers generally the model numbers?
>
> No, the chassis number is the ID of one particular chassis of a particular
> type. Sometimes, it gets confusing, such as with Tyrrell who built just one
> chassis type 005 which is numbered 005, but several type 006 chassis.
> For an easy to understand selection, consider March: Their type no was the
> yaer of manufacture + the category that car was for, ie a 1971 F1 chassis
> was 711, a 1980 F3 car was 803, a 1976 Formula B chassis was 76B and so on.
> In addition, there were chassis numbers, so that the 26th 1980 Formula 3
> chassis would be 803-26 and the first F1 chassis completed in 1973 would be
> 731-1 (or 001, if thet were planning to build several, such as was needed if
> you happened to employ Andrea de Cesaris...
Great info Doc, Gracias, Danke sehr!
> So, can you work out what car would be called 693-001?
1969 F3, first unit.
> and how about 792-11?
1979 F2, eleventh unit.
> And to be really awkward, the March 708?
Googlee? 1970, Formula 8, protoype? :)
--
Jarno Trulli put out a press release saying hes leaving the team [and]
hes quite happy about it. Ive never seen a release that says, Im happy
to have been fired!
Anand Nene
>> For an easy to understand selection, consider March: Their type no was the
>> yaer of manufacture + the category that car was for, ie a 1971 F1 chassis
>> was 711, a 1980 F3 car was 803, a 1976 Formula B chassis was 76B and so on.
>> In addition, there were chassis numbers, so that the 26th 1980 Formula 3
>> chassis would be 803-26 and the first F1 chassis completed in 1973 would be
>> 731-1 (or 001, if thet were planning to build several, such as was needed if
>> you happened to employ Andrea de Cesaris...
>
> Doc.... don't lead people astray. March chassis spotting is a hard
> game for grown-ups. Frank Williams once bought a 'brand new, honest,
> guv' 761B from Robin and Max. He found traces of orange paint on
> it and it turned out to be a 741 tub that Vittorio Brambilla had
> bent, partially reskinned.
Using my newly acquired knowledge on March chassis :P, that would mean
Max and Robin re-badged / painted a 1974 F1, first manufactured unit
and sold it to Sir Frank as a 1976 B variant. Was it ok? Did Frank sue?
What happened to Robin Herd?
Guys, here's a very interesting bit of article I caught while trying
to catch more info on March! w00t!
March - STP years
http://www.research-racing.de/march1.htm
Schmidt / Lawrence - The story of March
The 7th November, 1969 had been a day to be remembered in British
motor racing. At that date March Engineering Ltd. had been founded at
Bicester near the old university town of Oxford. The founders had been
Max Mosley ( M. ), Alan Rees ( A. R. ), Graham Coaker ( C. ) and Robin
Herd ( H. ). Mosley, both a studied physicist and lawyer, had been a
former Formula 2 driver as well as Alan Rees, who once had been
competing at the side of famous Jochen Rindt at the not less famous
Roy Winkelmann team. Coaker, who was killed at Brands Hatch in 1971,
had been a businessman and club racing driver, while engineer Robin
Herd (second best exam in the history of Oxford University) had been
working at the Farnborough aircraft plant (for the Concorde supersonic
passenger plane), at Cosworth (for their 4WD Formula 1 car for Jim
Clark) and at McLaren (for the M7 Grand Prix car). But the whole
project originally had been installed around Austrian star Jochen
Rindt. Rindt had been fed up driving for Team Lotus especially after
the rear wing collapse accident of Barcelona-Montjuich in the spring
of 1969. Rindt had contacted his British friend Robin Herd to make him
design both a two-wheel -drive and a four-wheel-drive Grand Prix car
for him with the goal to make the charismatic driver becoming world
champion finally. The position of the team principal should be
fulfilled by Bernie Ecclestone, team manager´s position was scheduled
for Alan Rees and the second driver should be Spaniard Alex Soler-Roig
to be bought into the team by private or sponsor money. The things had
gone very far in the middle of 1969, but then Robin Herd Herd decided
to change the sides. He had made Max Mosley, the polyglot strategist,
get involved in the enterprise and also Alan rees had changed his
mind. This gang had not been interested in making their idol Rindt a
world champion any longer. No, doubt, they had wanted to enter Grand
Prix Racing, but there also had been the burning desire for earning
money by becoming commercial racing car manufacturers as Lola, Brabham
and partly Lotus had done before. For this reason Rindt had renewed
his contract with Team Lotus, died at the 1970 Monza qualifying and
became world champion a few weeks later inspite of that.
With the money they had won at a bet Jackie Stewart to become 1969
world champion (around £ 3000) Mosley, Rees, Coaker and Herd had
entered a brick made factory at Bicester´s Murdoch Road. Very soon
they presented the first ever racing car of their own. The prototype
March 693 had been made, as it can be seen from it´s model designation
for Formula 3. Swede Ronnie Peterson became March´s first works
driver, with the 693 he made a spectacular crash at Paris-Montléry in
autum 1969 after a fine third place at March´s debut race at Cadwell
Park. Only a short time later the board of directors of March
declared, they wanted to enter Grand Prix Racing in 1970 with works
cars constructed by their own. Nobody dared to believe that
announcement, some guys simply smiled about that. The deeper was the
shock, when the entire world of motorsport had to accept, that five
March Grand Prix cars were at the grid of the first round of the 1970
worldchampionship at South African Kyalami. Chris Amon, a highly
qualified talent from New Zealand, had left Ferrari to join March as
their number one driver. Title sponsorship had come from STP Oil
Treatment, one of the most famous automotive equipment brands of the
USA including their Italian native enterpreneur Andy Granatelli, a
self-made millionaire. Porsche paid for the second March making their
sportscar star driver Jo Siffert from Switzerland not lose to arch
rival Ferrari. Additional sponsorship from STP made Italo-American
Mario Andretti a separate Grand Prix car, as the Amon and Siffert
entries under the model designation 701. Two further 701s were brought
to the grid by Ken Tyrrell for reigning world champion Jackie Stewart
and his French comrade Johnny Servoz-Gavin with the sponsorship of
France´s national oil company elf. The woodcutter also had bought a
701 spare car from the Bicester facilities, and Tyrrell´s designer
Derek Gardner was able to give the private cars some deciding
modifications. Success did not wait to come March´s way a long time
and so Chris Amon won the 1970 Daily Express Trophy at Silverstone
(his only career Formula One victory), while Jackie Stewart succeeded
in the same year´s Race of Champions at Brands Hatch and the Spanish
Grand Prix at Madrid-Jarama. His team mate Johnny Servoz-Gavin had
sustained an eye injury during a spare time activity and had decided
to retire from active competition after the Monaco Grand Prix, so he
was replaced by young and very promising Frenchman Francois Cevert for
the Dutch Grand Prix held in Zandvoort. From the Monaco Grand Prix on
Colin Crabbe entered a sixth 701 for Ronnie Peterson under the licence
of his company Antiques Automobiles. Later that year German Formula 2
driver Hubert Hahne decided to buy another 701 for himself with
sponsor money of newspaper magnate Axel Springer, owner of Germany´s
leading tabloit newsaper Bild Zeitung. But when Hahne had not been
able to qualify for the 1970 Hockenheim Grand Prix, because he both
was short of money and neccessary equipment, he took legal action
against March and especially against the lawyer Max Mosley. Then Hahne
retired from active motorsport a few days later. In 1970 March also
had a works entry in CanAm and Interseries with a mighty, also STP
sponsored, March Chevrolet 707 driven by Chris Amon and Helmut
Kelleners of Germany. This year they had sold four Formula 2, 14
Formula 3 and also 14 cars of other Formulas, but at the end of the
year the board of directors had to notice, that they had not been able
to earn really money. "Walter Hayes of Ford had warned us not to enter
Formula One so early. We should have signed a three years lasting
contract with Ken Tyrrell, who had been ready doing so, to save the
unprofitable works cars," was the comment of Max Mosley for the early
mistakes made by his company.
Already in the middle of 1970 Ken Tyrrell had decided to construct a
car of his own for not being a Bicester customer any longer, because
he and Jackie Stewart had not been satisfied with the March car at
least. But Mosley was able to extend his contract with STP for 1971
for the construction of the 711 powered both by Ford Cosworth or Alfa
Romeo V8 engines. While Robin Herd had designed the mechanical side of
the 711, Frank Costin (former Vanwall and Costin Protos F2) gave it
it´s typical aerodynamic shape with a front wing in surfboard style.
Ronnie Peterson had joined the March works team as their number one
driver also bringing additional money from his personal sponsors Vick
and SMOG (Halstabletter from Sweden). The Alfa Romeo powered cars for
the Italians Andrea de Adamich and Nanni Galli were paid by the Milano
based car maker, while the remaining 711s were available for local
drivers on a rent a car base. This opportunity was used by Alex
Soler-Roig and Mike Beuttler (with money from the brokers Clarke,
Mordaunt and Guthrie). In Zeltweg Niki Lauda gave his debut for an
extraordinary career in Grand Prix Racing supported by an Austrian
bank credit and in de Adamichs chassis combined with Mike Beuttler´s
spare engine. All cars appeared in red livery, also the privately
entered 711 of US-American Skip Barber, who had bought his car with
sponsor money of RRR Oil Filters and the Politoys backed Frank
Williams car for Frenchman Henri Pescarolo. 1971 again was a good
sporting year for the Bicester based company. Ronnie Peterson showed a
spectacular style of driving, very sideways, and therefore being
considered as the new Jochen Rindt became vice champion at the end of
the year. In his yellow March Ford 712M he also was able to conquer
the title of a European Formula 2 Champion. March sold 60 cars for the
lower formulas in 1971, but the overall profits of the company
remained pretty poor.
For 1972 the things both on the racing and commercial sector looked
very promising. Ronnie Peterson and Niki Lauda had become works
drivers both for Formula 1 and 2 in cars of the meanwhile traditional
red STP livery. Niki Lauda had bought into the team by a credit of the
Raiffeisen Bank, because there had not been sufficient sponsor money
available in Austria of those days. When Peterson had got other
duties, he was replaced by young German Jochen Mass in the 722 Formula
2 car with the sponsorship of Cologne motor magazine Auto Zeitung. For
the 1972 Grand Prix season, that began very early in January at
Argentine Buenos Aires, March had presented the 721 model, a in more
than 100 details modified version of the successfull 711 of the year
before. Two further 721 chassis were sold to Frank Williams (later
modified by former Brabham chief designer Ron Tauranac) for Henri
Pescarolo and to Günther Hennerici from German Eifelland racing (a
caravan manufacturer) for Rolf Stommelen; the white, later white and
blue car was modified on the aerodynamic sector by popular German
industrial designer Luigi Colani. A complete new works car called 721X
was announced for April that year, it really appeared under Ronnie
Peterson for the Race of Champions at Brands Hatch. All elements of
great weight were concentrated between the axles in the style of the
Porsche 908 sports car being especially very successful at the Targa
Florio in Sicily and Germany´s Nuerburgring to give the car an
excellent handling. For that purpose March had constructed a gearbox
of their own being installed in front of the rear axle, not behind it,
as it was done by the usual Hewland units. The mechanical parts of the
gearbox had been delivered by former engine supplier Alfa Romeo.
Dampers and springs had got horizontal positions combined with very
special wishbones and also a revolutionary exhaust system with the
pipes reaching directly under the rear wing. Ronnie Peterson was very
exciting about the 721X, but the Swede was a brilliant racing, but not
a good test driver. He always said good things about the revolutionary
car, but when he was not quick enough, Max Mosley made Niki Lauda test
it. After a few laps the Austrian was very frustrated about the whole
project with a very bitter prognosis: "This thing will never succeed."
STP had got the exclusive rights for the 721X only used by the works
drivers Peterson and Lauda, so Mike Beuttler as a private entry of
Clarke Mordaunt Guthrie and Durlacher Racing had to use the 721G, a
722 Formula 2 chassis with additional lateral fuel tanks and the usual
Ford Cosworth DFV V8 engine. Niki Lauda convinced Herd and Mosley to
copy this type for the works Grand Prix team and not to go back to the
older 721 that was used by Pescarolo and Stommelen. From the French
Grand Prix of Clermont Ferrand the 721Gs were a clear step forward,
but March was not able to continue the successes they had reached in
the seasons before. Peterson only scored 12 points in the 1972
worldchampionship (position 9 in the final standings), March finished
sixth of nine teams in the constructors´championship. While works
driver Lauda and the private drivers Beuttler, Pescarolo, Stommelen
remained pointless, novice Carlos Pace in the old 711 at Frank
Williams (modified by Ron Tauranac, in black livery and sponsored by
Politoys and a Brazilian bank) scored three fine points to the credit
of March Engineering Ltd. In the STP March Ford 722 Niki Lauda won the
John Player British Formula 2 Championship, but the more important
European championship in this category went to Mike Hailwood from the
rival Matchbox Team Surtees. That year, the first of the
2-litre-Formula 2, March had got only not reliable engines available.
Stommelen´s Eifelland team went bankrupt after the Austrian Grand
Prix, while Frank Williams had begun to produce Grand Prix cars of his
own (in 1972 under the name of Italian toy company Politoys, in 1973 &
1974 supported by sportscar maker ISO Rivolta, also coming from
Italy). Stommelen`s chassis was sold back to Britain to Hexagon racing
making Ulsterman John Watson give his Formula One debut at the
Worldchampionship Victory Race of Brands Hatch at the end of the year.
That was the time, when Peterson was so frustrated of the situation at
March, that he decided to accept an offer of Colin Chapman of Team
Lotus as an equal number one to reigning world champion Emerson
Fittipaldi for 1973. Niki Lauda had got available no bank credits
anymore, so he had to join B.R.M. for the following year. The only
March man to stay for 1973 was Cairo born Mike Beuttler in his yellow
car (the homosexual died of Aids at the age of only 45 years in
Californian San Francisco in 1989). The greatest success of 1972 was
to sell 40 cars of the 722 type (for Formula 2 and B).
With Graham Coaker dead and Alan Rees (as team manager) switched to
US-American UOP Shadow, Max Mosley and Robin Herd remained alone as
the founders of March Engineering Ltd. They needed another star driver
to make STP stay as their title sponsor, and when Chris Amon had lost
his job after the retirement of Matra from Grand Prix Racing, they
signed him up as their only 1973 works driver. But the contract with
the New Zealander coming back to March after two years in France, was
very complicated. He had founded an engine shop of his own some time
ago, but it was typical for the bad luck personality of Amon, that
this company became bankrupt after a while. So Amon and March became
equal partners in that engine business (mainly for Formula 2) , the
Bicester company paid the depth for Amon, so the Kiwi could not expect
the high salary he had been used to in the past at Ferrari and Matra.
The only money Amon had been given by Mosley were per cents of the
starting and prize money, before he went to winter holidays to his
home country of New Zealand. In a letter written to Mosley before his
departure he had told the lawyer Mosley to accept this regulation only
for the first Grand Prix of 1973 to demand parts of the sponsor money
the following rounds. When reading this letter, Mosley got so angry,
that he sacked Amon immidiately. Amon heard that news in the radio
when having breakfast. Meanwhile STP had cut back their sponsor money
for March. So it was the easiest idea to replace Amon by Jean Pierre
Jarier, Mosley´s champion elect for the 1973 Formula 2 European title,
who was sponsored by his friend, French furniture maker ARNOLD. In the
middle of 1972 March had signed a very promising contract with BMW for
a new Formula 2 project both on a works entry and a commercial basis.
BMW supplied the STP March 732 with their powerful 2-litre-4-cylinder
engines and they also delivered the engines for the exclusive use of
the many March customers in Formula 2. The only condition was BMW´s
works driver, young Hans-Joachim Stuck (the son of the former Grand
Prix driver and hillclimb champion Hans Stuck), to drive the second
STP 732 at the side of Jarier. While Jarier won the Formula 2 title in
a superior manner, he did not so well in Grand Prix racing with the
sole STP 731G again based on the corresponding F2 chassis and in
reality only an uprated 721G from 1972. With a Grand Prix and a
Formula 2 race at the same date, Jarier was replaced by his fellow
countryman Henri Pescarolo and later that year by Briton Roger
Williamson, backed by Donington Grand Prix Collection owner Tom
Wheatcroft. But 1973 became the sadest year in the history of the
March Grand Prix team, not only because the works drivers did not
score a single point, but above all, because promising Roger
Williamson had to die under tragic circumstances in the fire inferno
of Zandvoort. The marshalls were badly equipped and cowards, too. No
points also were scored by the other March private drivers Mike
Beuttler and David Purley (who had bought into the team by money of
LEC Refrigeration Ltd. owned by him and his family for five Grand
Prix). All 14 points for March (final position 5 in the
constructors´table) were collected by rising star James Hunt in the
white 731G of Lord Alexander Hesketh from Towcester near Silverstone.
The young millionaire, a close friend of late Williams de Tomaso
driver Piers Courage, had begun to build up a factory of his own in
his castle together with his team manager Bubbles Horsley and designer
Dr Harvey Postlethwaite (also former March) with the intention of
constructing a car of theirown the following year. At the end of 1973
Andy Granatelli, who once had started his career as a poor immigrant
boy by collecting empty cola bottles in Chicago, completely withdrew
his sponsor money from the Bicester facilties. This was a very bad
experience for Mosley and Herd and meant very mixed emotions
considering the fact, that they had scored extremely good results in
Formula 2 partnered by BMW both on the sporting and the commercial
field.
> I know of one 761 tub that's had three plates on it, and one plate
> that's been on three tubs. And that's not counting 761s that became
> 761Bs, or 751s that became 761s. And you'll never find any 731s in the
> works production figures, because they're really rebodied 721Gs. And
> there was a shuffle on 701 chassis numbers that I never fully understood
> involving at least two retubs and a couple of swaps to make what
> appeared at a race fit the customs carnets.
Not sure, it appears that they made 7 units of the 701.
> And there are Marches that never had a March chassis number - the
> "Orbitor" Indycar based on the 792 and the first batch of "BMW M1Cs."
>
>> So, can you work out what car would be called 693-001? and how about 792-11?
>> And to be really awkward, the March 708?
>
> Did 693 actually have an individual chassis number given that there was
> only one of it?
Nope, I mean from the above article at least.
> Well the 708 was a FFord ;) (So was the 709 wasn't it?)
>
> Still they're not like Lotus who used to just use double-sided sticky
> tape to hold the chassis plates on. Perish the thought that they ever
> wheeled one car round the back of the paddock, swapped the plates and
> had it scrutineered twice because their other car hadn't been finished
> yet.... ;)
So I am still missing the literature. Waiting for amazon.co.in, or may
be I will start something similar one day :)
--
"Wakey wakey Gerhard, it's a bit late now." (Berger sets fastest lap
right near the end of the race)
Anand Nene
>
And 705, 707, 709 too? There is also a M variant, for example, 712(M).
The cool link posted by Mark, marchives.com shows all the chassis
types, numbering is consistent as per your explanation.
Thanks!
--
[The design of the cars] marches on so quickly in Formula 1. I mean, the
2002 [Ferrari] that was so dominant suddenly is an old bus.
Doc Knutsen
> On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 at 18:27 GMT, Doc Knutsen, wrote:
>>
>> And to be really awkward, the March 708?
>
> And 705, 707, 709 too? There is also a M variant, for example, 712(M).
>
> The cool link posted by Mark, marchives.com shows all the chassis
> types, numbering is consistent as per your explanation.
>
> Thanks!
The 707 was not made by Boeing :o)
It was the absolutely huge Chevy-powered Can-Am car
(Group 7) while the 712 M was marked for the monocoque type chassis, for a
while they made two types, namely a steel tubular space frame (S) and the
sheet alloy monocoque (M).
Doc
Pete Fenelon
There were at least 11 numbered tubs, IIRC, but allowing for retubs
there were probably around 13-14 701 chassis made in total.
It's surprising that there aren't more of them around in historic
racing, then again for most practical purposes the 701 was designed
so quickly and had so little development in it that it really was
a decent 1969 car that appeared in 1970 ;)
Anand Nene
> Ok, what's the deal? How are they numbered? Why do they keep changing
> so drastically? Why was 2006 challenger 248 and not F2006?
Looks like Benetton had a regular naming convention:
B186 = (B) Benetton + (1) 19th Century + 86 year
B201 = (B) Benetton + (2) 20th Century + 01 year
Model: B186 Year: 1986 Engine: BMW M12/13 L4T
Model: B187 Year: 1987 Engine: Ford TEC V6T
Model: B188 Year: 1988-1989 Engine: Ford Cosworth DFR V8
Model: B189 Year: 1989 Engine: Ford HBA1 V8
Model: B189B Year: 1990 Engine: Ford HBA4 V8
Model: B190 Year: 1990 Engine: Ford HBA4 V8
Model: B190B Year: 1991 Engine: Ford HBA5 V8
Model: B191 Year: 1991 Engine: Ford HBA6 V8
Model: B191B Year: 1992 Engine: Ford HBA7 V8
Model: B192 Year: 1992 Engine: Ford HBA7 V8
Model: B193A Year: 1993 Engine: Ford HBA7 V8
Model: B193B Year: 1993 Engine: Ford HBA8 V8
Model: B194 Year: 1994 Engine: Ford ECA Zetec-R V8
Model: B194B Year: 1994 Engine: Ford ECA Zetec-R V8
Model: B195 Year: 1995 Engine: Renault RS07(B,C) V10
Model: B196 Year: 1996 Engine: Renault RS08 V10
Model: B197 Year: 1997 Engine: Renault RS09(B) V10
Model: B198 Year: 1998 Engine: Playlife GS37-01 V10
Model: B199 Year: 1999 Engine: Playlife FB01 V10
Model: B200 Year: 2000 Engine: Playlife FB02 V10
Model: B201 Year: 2001 Engine: Renault RS21 V10
--
"They're going to crash into one another if they..." (sure enough, Alesi
and Hill touch, cutting off his sentence)
Anand Nene
> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 at 18:13 GMT, Anand Nene, wrote:
>> Ok, what's the deal? How are they numbered? Why do they keep changing
>> so drastically? Why was 2006 challenger 248 and not F2006?
>
> Looks like Benetton had a regular naming convention:
>
> B186 = (B) Benetton + (1) 19th Century + 86 year
> B201 = (B) Benetton + (2) 20th Century + 01 year
Another choice I observe is the use of the Team Founder name.
Model: FW01 Year: 1974 Engine: Ford Cosworth DFV V8 (Frank Williams)
Model: EJ10 Year: 2000 Engine: Mugen Honda MF310HE (Eddie Jordan)
Model: AP01 Year: 1998 Engine: Peugeot A16 V10 (Alain ProsT)
Model: PS01 Year: 2001 Engine: European V10 (Paul Stoddart, owner)
EJ10 & PS01 actually broke a very regular naming scheme for Jordan
and Minardi respectively
BTW, any idea of the use of letter T in BT for Brabham? Infact I find
the use of letter "T" in many makes!
--
"A good car always spins down the middle of the road." (Villeneuve
recovers gracefully)
SNAFU
Anand Nene <anandn...@gmx.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 at 18:13 GMT, Anand Nene, wrote:
>> Ok, what's the deal? How are they numbered? Why do they keep changing
>> so drastically? Why was 2006 challenger 248 and not F2006?
>
>Looks like Benetton had a regular naming convention:
>
>B186 = (B) Benetton + (1) 19th Century + 86 year
>B201 = (B) Benetton + (2) 20th Century + 01 year
>
Well, the nineteeen hundred were the 20th century, while 2000 on is the 21st...
This apart, the "1" stood for "Formula One", and was a legacy of Toleman (they
started building cars with they TG280, Toleman Group Formula 2, 1980)
Then, in the year 2000, they called it B201, and that's it!
'bye from Italy,
--
SNAFU
Per rispondermi privatamente, sostituisci "snaphoo" con "snafu"
To reply via e-mail, please remember to replace "snaphoo" with "snafu"
SNAFU
Anand Nene <anandn...@gmx.net> wrote:
>BTW, any idea of the use of letter T in BT for Brabham? Infact I find
>the use of letter "T" in many makes!
Brabham + Tauranac (Ron, designer, and maybe partner in the team; later founder
of Ralt)
Anand Nene
>> Ok, what's the deal? How are they numbered? Why do they keep changing
>> so drastically? Why was 2006 challenger 248 and not F2006?
>
> Looks like Benetton had a regular naming convention:
>
> B186 = (B) Benetton + (1) 19th Century + 86 year
> B201 = (B) Benetton + (2) 20th Century + 01 year
Caught one strange, AFM (Alex von Falkenhausen Motorenbau)
Model: 1 Year: 1952 Engine: BMW 328 L6
Model: 6 Year: 1952 Engine: BMW 328 L6
Model: 7 Year: 1952-1953 Engine: BMW 328 L6
Model: 8 Year: 1952 Engine: BMW 328 L6
and jumps back to 2 in 1953!
Model: 2 Year: 1953 Engine: BMW 328 L6
--
"That didn't work. That didn't work Michael. You hit the wrong part of
him my friend. I don't think that will cause Villeneuve a problem.
Anand Nene
>> Ok, what's the deal? How are they numbered? Why do they keep changing
>> so drastically? Why was 2006 challenger 248 and not F2006?
>
> Looks like Benetton had a regular naming convention:
>
> B186 = (B) Benetton + (1) 19th Century + 86 year
> B201 = (B) Benetton + (2) 20th Century + 01 year
Here's one interesting bit for those who didn't know. Team Arrows got its
name from its five founders:
Franco (A)mbrosio
Alain (R)ees
Jackie (O)liver
Dave (W)ass
Tony (S)outhgate
And so was the model named, starting with A###.
--
"I got thrown out of this event back in 1991, I believe it was, because
I did not see the [weigh-bridge] lights."
SNAFU
Pete Fenelon <pe...@fenelon.com> wrote:
>Perish the thought that they ever
>wheeled one car round the back of the paddock, swapped the plates
>and had it scrutineered twice because their other car hadn't been >finished
yet.... ;)
I assume inspection stickers hadn't been invented yet...
Pete Fenelon
>
> Model: FW01 Year: 1974 Engine: Ford Cosworth DFV V8 (Frank Williams)
Apart from Williamses were FXs or IRs, of course ;)
> BTW, any idea of the use of letter T in BT for Brabham? Infact I find
> the use of letter "T" in many makes!
Brabham/Tauranac.
Pete Fenelon
>
> Pete Fenelon <pe...@fenelon.com> wrote:
>>Perish the thought that they ever
>>wheeled one car round the back of the paddock, swapped the plates
>>and had it scrutineered twice because their other car hadn't been >finished
> yet.... ;)
>
> I assume inspection stickers hadn't been invented yet...
Scrutineers used to tie a label on round the steering column when I was
a nipper!
Doc Knutsen
"Luigi Topolino" <tif...@mindspring.com> skrev i melding
news:todkr2d9gg37qqapr...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:43:30 +0000, Pete Fenelon <pe...@fenelon.com>
> wrote:
>>BMW M1C
>
> ...Ugly bugger, that.
Agreed, but that is the March IMSA sports-prototype, the 82G, which featured
the same chassis but with a different body by Max Sardou, with the "lobster
claw" front end which was a feature of the March design up to the
86G.....iirc. The BMW M1C had bodywork which was reasonably close to a
proper M1. I ought to know, one of those M1 buggers had me off at the
Jyllandsring in Denmark, running out of brakes and using my Gr5 Lotus Esprit
as a buffer.
Doc
Doc Knutsen
"Pete Fenelon" <pe...@fenelon.com> skrev i melding
news:iban84-...@stratos.fenelon.com...
> Doc Knutsen <doc@cheekracingdotcom> wrote:
>> For an easy to understand selection, consider March: Their type no was
>> the
>> yaer of manufacture + the category that car was for, ie a 1971 F1 chassis
>> was 711, a 1980 F3 car was 803, a 1976 Formula B chassis was 76B and so
>> on.
>> In addition, there were chassis numbers, so that the 26th 1980 Formula 3
>> chassis would be 803-26 and the first F1 chassis completed in 1973 would
>> be
>> 731-1 (or 001, if thet were planning to build several, such as was needed
>> if
>> you happened to employ Andrea de Cesaris...
>
>
> Doc.... don't lead people astray. March chassis spotting is a hard
> game for grown-ups.
Individual chassis spotting is bewildering, yes. But the naming of the
chassis types was pretty logical, as I pointed out.
Many of the actual tubs were pretty similar, so a brand new 761 could well
be a re-badged 741 monocoque. And chassis numbers were stamped on an alloy
plate which was rivetted onto the chassis with four 1/8" pop rivets....not
too difficult to swap those around.
Doc
Doc Knutsen
> Anand Nene <anandn...@gmx.net> wrote:
>>
>> Not sure, it appears that they made 7 units of the 701.
>
> There were at least 11 numbered tubs, IIRC, but allowing for retubs
> there were probably around 13-14 701 chassis made in total.
>
> It's surprising that there aren't more of them around in historic
> racing, then again for most practical purposes the 701 was designed
> so quickly and had so little development in it that it really was
> a decent 1969 car that appeared in 1970 ;)
The 701 was only fit for taking to the vet on a Saturday night...a real dog,
it was. No matter how hard they tried, nobody got any more speed out of it
during the season, its speed at its debut was as fast as that car was ever
going to get.
Mind you, if they had looked closely at those tear-shaped side pods and done
some aero development..
Doc
Doc Knutsen
"SNAFU" <pvtsn...@inwind.it> skrev i melding
news:45bb6960$1...@extreme.x-privat.org...
>
> Pete Fenelon <pe...@fenelon.com> wrote:
>>Perish the thought that they ever
>>wheeled one car round the back of the paddock, swapped the plates
>>and had it scrutineered twice because their other car hadn't been
>> >finished
> yet.... ;)
>
> I assume inspection stickers hadn't been invented yet...
Oh yes, they had...but they were tied onto the roll-over bar with a piece of
string (or some other convenient part of the chassis.)
Doc
Doc Knutsen
1970 Formula Ford 1600....looking like its F1 cousin, it was also a bit of a
dog.
Doc
Doc Knutsen
Yes, for Brabham Tauranac. Ron T was the designer, he went on to design and
build Ralts and Rontas, one of the truly great racing car designers.
Doc
Doc Knutsen
Incidentally, March founder Graham Coaker was not "killed at Silverstone",
he succumbed to cardiac problems following surgery.
Doc
Pete Fenelon
>> It's surprising that there aren't more of them around in historic
>> racing, then again for most practical purposes the 701 was designed
>> so quickly and had so little development in it that it really was
>> a decent 1969 car that appeared in 1970 ;)
>
> The 701 was only fit for taking to the vet on a Saturday night...a real dog,
> it was. No matter how hard they tried, nobody got any more speed out of it
> during the season, its speed at its debut was as fast as that car was ever
> going to get.
> Mind you, if they had looked closely at those tear-shaped side pods and done
> some aero development..
hehe... well they were done by Peter Wright of Specialist Mouldings,
who'd previously been involved in the BRM wing-car project.... ;) Be
very interesting to compare the side-tank profile to the sidepods of the
abandoned BRM wing-car... I guess by that point John Surtees was sick of
innovative cars (that very strange Chaparral 2H!)
Pete Fenelon
>> Doc.... don't lead people astray. March chassis spotting is a hard
>> game for grown-ups.
>
>
> Individual chassis spotting is bewildering, yes. But the naming of the
> chassis types was pretty logical, as I pointed out.
Indeed - March designations are usually pretty reasonable, as were
Reynard etc. Lola's schemes bewildered me for a long time, and were
certainly less clear until the Txx/yy system came in.
> Many of the actual tubs were pretty similar, so a brand new 761 could well
> be a re-badged 741 monocoque.
Probably a well-pranged and reskinned one ;)
One of the reasons Lella Lombardi perhaps didn't achieve as much as she
had hoped for in F1 is that March gave her a car with a broken rear
bulkhead. She drove it for the best part of a season and said it 'felt
funny' at the back. Max and Robin put "The Monza Gorilla" in the car, he
went rather faster than Lella, and said it was fine - demonstrating
his finely-honed skills as a development driver.
Come the next season and Ronnie sits in it and instantly says there's
something amiss - and they take him seriously, and have a proper look at
it - turns out the car was essentially being held together by
will-power and flexing horribly where the engine was attached...
> And chassis numbers were stamped on an alloy
> plate which was rivetted onto the chassis with four 1/8" pop rivets....not
> too difficult to swap those around.
Chassis number fraud is why Jenks stopped publishing his little Racing
Car Review books every year, he wanted to print the truth, which
would've landed a lot of people in jail for customs fraud ;)
Pete Fenelon
>
> 1970 Formula Ford 1600....looking like its F1 cousin, it was also a bit of a
> dog.
> Doc
None of the 1970 Marches were much cop - then again I don't know
many people who could design and build F1, F2, F3, FFord and Can-Am
cars in the space of six months or so!
It isn't what Robin Herd really wanted to do - he'd wanted to do a
really close-knit one-car team with Rindt, Ecclestone providing the
money... but Jochen stayed at Lotus. He reckoned he might've built
a 711 instead of the 701 in 1970, and who knows what might've
happened then...?
pete
Patrick Texier
> Another choice I observe is the use of the Team Founder name.
Some other names :
AGS JH : Henri Julien, team owner
Amon : AF. Amon + Fowell (designer) ???
Aston Martin DBR : DB for owner David Brown.
Dallara : first number for formula + year.
Ensign N : Nunn, team owner.
Fondmetal : GR Gabriele Rumi, team owner.
Larousse (and Lola-Larousse) : LC Larousse+Calmels, teams owner. LH
Larousse+???
Ligier JS : Jo Schlesser, Guy Ligier's friend.
Lola-Haas : THL HL = Haas+Lola.
McLaren : MP4 Marlboro (and McLaren) - Project Four.
Project Four was Ron Dennis Formula 2 (and BMW M1 Procar with Lauda's
title in 1979) team merged with McLaren in 1980.
Parnelli VPJ : Velco Milevich + Parnelli Jones, team owners.
Penske : PC (Roger) Penske cars. Team Owner.
Renault : RS Renault-Sport, RE and R Renault
Sauber : C Christiane, team owner's wife firstname :-)
Shadows : DN Don Nichols, team owner.
Theodore : TY Teddy Yip, team owner.
--
Patrick Texier
free open wheels single-seater results database (french language)
(F1, GP pre-1950, F2, F3000, GP2, A1GP, IRL, ChampCars...)
<http://www.gpsql.org>
Mario
917 K-026-4900, 1971
John Wyer - Gulf
The "Long Tail" driven by Steve McQueen in "Lemans" for the flick.
Started at Imola 2nd in '71, DNF.
"Patrick Texier" <p.te...@alussinan.org> wrote in message
news:ephhmo.3...@genindre.org...
Doc Knutsen
Must admit I am in two minds about Il Grande John...
Jim Hall tells a very different story. And the circular-section monocoque of
the Surtees era BRM was hardly the brightest design feature ever to emerge
from Bourne.
But perhaps I see it as an ugly duckling because of its successor,the P153.
Still remember the front page of Orterspurt when that BRM was unveiled...in
colour. That was before the Yardley livery, too.The simple metallic bottle
green with that fluorescent orange nose band highlighting what was, to my
eyes, an absolute stunner. One of the most gorgeous single-seaters I had
ever seen.
Doc
Doc Knutsen
> Doc Knutsen <doc@cheekracingdotcom> wrote:
>>
>> 1970 Formula Ford 1600....looking like its F1 cousin, it was also a bit
>> of a
>> dog.
>> Doc
>
> None of the 1970 Marches were much cop - then again I don't know
> many people who could design and build F1, F2, F3, FFord and Can-Am
> cars in the space of six months or so!
>
> It isn't what Robin Herd really wanted to do - he'd wanted to do a
> really close-knit one-car team with Rindt, Ecclestone providing the
> money... but Jochen stayed at Lotus. He reckoned he might've built
> a 711 instead of the 701 in 1970, and who knows what might've
> happened then...?
One of the top tantalising "what ifs", fershure. Jochen and Ronnie in the
same team, with proper backing, and Herd being able to focus on the main
show, the F1 car.
Doc
Doc Knutsen
"Mario" <mariobind...@canada.com> skrev i melding
news:ephic0$59v$1...@news.datemas.de...
> Not a Ferrari, but a Porsche.
>
>
> 917 K-026-4900, 1971
> John Wyer - Gulf
>
> The "Long Tail" driven by Steve McQueen in "Lemans" for the flick.
The Gulf cars as featured in the movie were not long tails.
The K stands for Kurz, or "short" in German.
Doc
Pete Fenelon
> Ensign N : Nunn, team owner.
Ensign used N for models, but MN for individual chassis (Mo Nunn).
Mario
"Doc Knutsen" <doc@cheekracingDOTcom> wrote in message
news:12rounq...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Mario" <mariobind...@canada.com> skrev i melding
> news:ephic0$59v$1...@news.datemas.de...
>> Not a Ferrari, but a Porsche.
>>
>>
>> 917 K-026-4900, 1971
>> John Wyer - Gulf
>>
>> The "Long Tail" driven by Steve McQueen in "Lemans" for the flick.
>
> The Gulf cars as featured in the movie were not long tails.
How strange, I have a tape of the movie on right now and they sure are long
tails.
There's a shot of McQueen getting into the #20 car and I have no doubt about
what I see.
> The K stands for Kurz, or "short" in German.
I may have mistakenly found the wrong chassis.
Luigi Topolino
<doc@cheekracingDOTcom> wrote:
>"Luigi Topolino" <tif...@mindspring.com> skrev i melding
>news:todkr2d9gg37qqapr...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:43:30 +0000, Pete Fenelon <pe...@fenelon.com>
>> wrote:
>>>BMW M1C
>>
>> ...Ugly bugger, that.
>>
>
>Agreed, but that is the March IMSA sports-prototype, the 82G, which featured
>the same chassis but with a different body by Max Sardou, with the "lobster
>claw" front end which was a feature of the March design up to the
>86G.....iirc. The BMW M1C had bodywork which was reasonably close to a
>proper M1. I ought to know, one of those M1 buggers had me off at the
>Jyllandsring in Denmark, running out of brakes and using my Gr5 Lotus Esprit
>as a buffer.
I do NOT see the resemblance. For all it's faults, the M1 is a lovely
design:
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/7686/M1_street/m1_1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/7686/M1_street/pstreetm150.jpg
a425couple
> On Wed, Phil Newnham <pnew...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Anand Nene wrote:
> >> On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 at 18:25 GMT, Luigi Topolino, wrote:
> >>>> Ok, what's the deal? How are they numbered?
> >> Aren't chassis numbers generally the model numbers?
>
> Except they have not been "stamped" for many years, and if being
> really pedantic the chassis themselves weren't ever stamped, only the
> plates riveted to the chassis were.
Sorry to intrude (and way too late at that), but the above
statement of, "the chassis themselves weren't ever stamped",
is way too broad. Many were. Arch motors was the actual
builder of many of the chassis used by many of the manufacturers
(including Lola, Lotus, Brabham, Chevron, Ford GT 40 Lola, Lotus,
March, Ensign ,Ralt, Van Diemen, and Elden).
They say (and my eyes have many times found) they stamped
all their chassis. But, true enough, that does not mean their
number was in any way used by the manufacturer (!).
Many manufacturers kept both lists so cross-referencing
was possible. Some did not.
Luigi Topolino
<doc@cheekracingDOTcom> wrote:
>"SNAFU" <pvtsn...@inwind.it> skrev i melding
>news:45bb6960$1...@extreme.x-privat.org...
>>
>> Pete Fenelon <pe...@fenelon.com> wrote:
>>>Perish the thought that they ever
>>>wheeled one car round the back of the paddock, swapped the plates
>>>and had it scrutineered twice because their other car hadn't been
>>> >finished
>> yet.... ;)
>>
>> I assume inspection stickers hadn't been invented yet...
>
>Oh yes, they had...but they were tied onto the roll-over bar with a piece of
>string (or some other convenient part of the chassis.)
"BS"? ...Before Stickytape?
a425couple
> proper M1. I ought to know, one of those M1 buggers had me off at the
> Jyllandsring in Denmark, running out of brakes and using my Gr5 Lotus
Esprit
> as a buffer. Doc
Don't you just hate it when one of those "spend it all now"
selfish s.o.b. buggers decide to use our brakes to slow
themselves down!
Feeling somewhat like Snoopy on top of his dog house
saying "Curse you, Red Barron!"
(but meanwhile sitting in a car, in a gravel trap, awaiting tow truck!)
Mario
"Luigi Topolino" <tif...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:juipr29suhoke31fu...@4ax.com...
Isn't Duct Tape called "Racing tape" by those in the know (meaning the idiots on
SpeedTV)?
Doc Knutsen
> On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 22:43:10 +0100, "Doc Knutsen"
> <doc@cheekracingDOTcom> wrote:
>>"Luigi Topolino" <tif...@mindspring.com> skrev i melding
>>news:todkr2d9gg37qqapr...@4ax.com...
>>> On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:43:30 +0000, Pete Fenelon <pe...@fenelon.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>BMW M1C
>>>
>>> ...Ugly bugger, that.
>>>
>>> http://www.marchives.com/gallery/80/March_BMW_M1C_1
>>
>>Agreed, but that is the March IMSA sports-prototype, the 82G, which
>>featured
>>the same chassis but with a different body by Max Sardou, with the
>>"lobster
>>claw" front end which was a feature of the March design up to the
>>86G.....iirc. The BMW M1C had bodywork which was reasonably close to a
>>proper M1. I ought to know, one of those M1 buggers had me off at the
>>Jyllandsring in Denmark, running out of brakes and using my Gr5 Lotus
>>Esprit
>>as a buffer.
>
> I do NOT see the resemblance. For all it's faults, the M1 is a lovely
> design:
Seems you got me wrong....the pic is of the March 82G, the IMSA sports
prototype, it is *not* the M1C which did have bodywork based on the M1.
Sorry if I expressed myself poorly. I am about two days away from having my
C-type ready for the spray shop, and just awaiting delivery of some special
+40thou 3.8 pistons, then the engine is going together...my thoughts keep
straying towards this project even when I am posting to this ng, hence my
garbled posting :o)
Doc
Doc Knutsen
Well, sticky tape does exist in Europe, and has done so for some time :o)
Actually, many people do not like to have scrutineering labels stuck onto
the car, as they become hell to remove after a few weeks. Ever tried to
remove old masking tape from car bodywork?
Doc
Doc Knutsen
The longheck was the original factory LM shape, the tail tapering very
gently towards the pair of small rear fins with an aerofoil between them. It
is much longer than the McQueen movie type tail, which is part of the aero
package for the initially white-knuckle job that was the first 917. The aero
kit was developed with the help of JW Automotive. That was the short-tail JW
cars in Gulf colours, run at Le Mans. Compare with the Porsche Austria car,
which used the factory langheck bodywork.
John Wyer was adamant that their (JW/Gulf) choice of Kurz bodywork was the
correct one, in view of its superior stability (and slightly more drag) See
Wyers' book "That Certain Sound" for an interesting chapter on Porsche
politics.
Doc
>
>
Mario
"Doc Knutsen" <doc@cheekracingDOTcom> wrote in message
Good stuff! I'll look out for it.
Cheers!
Luigi Topolino
<doc@cheekracingDOTcom> wrote:
>"Luigi Topolino" <tif...@mindspring.com> skrev i melding
>news:idgpr2p4ip0038uea...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 22:43:10 +0100, "Doc Knutsen"
>> <doc@cheekracingDOTcom> wrote:
>>>"Luigi Topolino" <tif...@mindspring.com> skrev i melding
>>>news:todkr2d9gg37qqapr...@4ax.com...
>>>> On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:43:30 +0000, Pete Fenelon <pe...@fenelon.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>BMW M1C
>>>>
>>>> ...Ugly bugger, that.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.marchives.com/gallery/80/March_BMW_M1C_1
>>>
>>>Agreed, but that is the March IMSA sports-prototype, the 82G, which
>>>featured
>>>the same chassis but with a different body by Max Sardou, with the
>>>"lobster
>>>claw" front end which was a feature of the March design up to the
>>>86G.....iirc. The BMW M1C had bodywork which was reasonably close to a
>>>proper M1. I ought to know, one of those M1 buggers had me off at the
>>>Jyllandsring in Denmark, running out of brakes and using my Gr5 Lotus
>>>Esprit
>>>as a buffer.
>>
>> I do NOT see the resemblance. For all it's faults, the M1 is a lovely
>> design:
>> http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/7686/M1_street/pstreetm150.jpg
>
> Seems you got me wrong....the pic is of the March 82G, the IMSA sports
>prototype, it is *not* the M1C which did have bodywork based on the M1.
>Sorry if I expressed myself poorly. I am about two days away from having my
>C-type ready for the spray shop, and just awaiting delivery of some special
>+40thou 3.8 pistons, then the engine is going together...my thoughts keep
>straying towards this project even when I am posting to this ng, hence my
>garbled posting :o)
I'm so confused...
This isn't the M1C?
http://alex62.typepad.com/imsablog/2007/01/bmw_m1c_a_new_a.html
The only image I've found of anything that looks like a street M1 is
this rather crude die-cast of a G4 car: http://tinyurl.com/3cm2mj
Pete Fenelon
>> the factory langheck bodywork.
>> John Wyer was adamant that their (JW/Gulf) choice of Kurz bodywork was the
>> correct one, in view of its superior stability (and slightly more drag) See
>> Wyers' book "That Certain Sound" for an interesting chapter on Porsche
>> politics.
>> Doc
Good look finding it - I paid over £100 for my copy and it's not getting
any cheaper ;) (Sadly I passed by a £5 remaindered copy not long after
it came out!) It is however probably *the* best autobiography in sports car
racing.
John Horsman's "Racing In The Rain" which came out last year covers many
of the same stories from a more engneerinng-oriented point of view -
Horsman was Wyer's main aide on the engineering side through Aston
Martin, the Ford GT40 programme, and the Porsche years.
Mario
"Pete Fenelon" <pe...@fenelon.com> wrote in message
news:796v84-...@stratos.fenelon.com...
> Mario <mariobind...@canada.com> wrote:
>>> the factory langheck bodywork.
>>> John Wyer was adamant that their (JW/Gulf) choice of Kurz bodywork was the
>>> correct one, in view of its superior stability (and slightly more drag) See
>>> Wyers' book "That Certain Sound" for an interesting chapter on Porsche
>>> politics.
>>> Doc
>
> Good look finding it - I paid over £100 for my copy and it's not getting
> any cheaper ;) (Sadly I passed by a £5 remaindered copy not long after
> it came out!) It is however probably *the* best autobiography in sports car
> racing.
Well, if that's the case. I suppose that I'll have to stick around and hear
about if from Doc and you!
That won't be painful!
>
> John Horsman's "Racing In The Rain" which came out last year covers many
> of the same stories from a more engneerinng-oriented point of view -
> Horsman was Wyer's main aide on the engineering side through Aston
> Martin, the Ford GT40 programme, and the Porsche years.
>
Good news. I'll still stick around though. It's hard to find newsgroups where
people are knowledgeable about that stuff. Some discussion groups (which I
won't mention) have denizens who claim that Lemans is a bore because they don't
know who the drivers are.
"Damn Furrinners"
John Briggs
> Mario <mariobind...@canada.com> wrote:
>>> the factory langheck bodywork.
>>> John Wyer was adamant that their (JW/Gulf) choice of Kurz bodywork
>>> was the correct one, in view of its superior stability (and
>>> slightly more drag) See Wyers' book "That Certain Sound" for an
>>> interesting chapter on Porsche politics.
>>> Doc
>
> Good look finding it - I paid over £100 for my copy and it's not
> getting any cheaper ;) (Sadly I passed by a £5 remaindered copy not
> long after
> it came out!) It is however probably *the* best autobiography in
> sports car racing.
John Wyer, The Certain Sound: Thirty Years of Motor Racing (1981)
There are currently seven copies on Abebooks (worldwide) - prices range from
£152 to £192.
--
John Briggs
Jeff York
>Patrick Texier <p.te...@alussinan.org> wrote:
>> Ensign N : Nunn, team owner.
>
>Ensign used N for models, but MN for individual chassis (Mo Nunn).
One used occasionally to help young Maurice set up Ensign F3 cars when
he was still based on Bridgeman Street, Walsall.! God, that makes me
feel old!! :-)
Pete Fenelon
>
> Good news. I'll still stick around though. It's hard to find newsgroups where
> people are knowledgeable about that stuff. Some discussion groups (which I
> won't mention) have denizens who claim that Lemans is a bore because they don't
> know who the drivers are.
>
Grin... my only problem with sports car racing is I often want
almost *everyone* to win because there are so many stories behind
each of the entries. And the great thing is sports car drivers
almost always have the time to talk to us mere punters and share a
few tales of what's happening and what's happened - one of the
funniest racing experiences I've ever had was ever was watching two
former Le Mans winners trying (unsuccessfully) to fix a coffee
machine and listening to them shoot the breeze about how many Group
C chassis they'd destroyed between them... ;)
(And I won't mention what one of them was planning to do with his
moustache at the first test of a new Porsche engine... ;))
Paul-B
> Mario <mariobind...@canada.com> wrote:
> >> the factory langheck bodywork.
> >> John Wyer was adamant that their (JW/Gulf) choice of Kurz bodywork
> was the >> correct one, in view of its superior stability (and
> slightly more drag) See >> Wyers' book "That Certain Sound" for an
> interesting chapter on Porsche >> politics.
> >> Doc
>
> Good look finding it - I paid over £100 for my copy and it's not
> getting any cheaper ;) (Sadly I passed by a £5 remaindered copy not
> long after it came out!) It is however probably the best
> autobiography in sports car racing.
>
> John Horsman's "Racing In The Rain" which came out last year covers
> many of the same stories from a more engneerinng-oriented point of
> view - Horsman was Wyer's main aide on the engineering side through
> Aston Martin, the Ford GT40 programme, and the Porsche years.
>
> pete
There's a copy on eBay... But It Now price £180.00
Item 8412249751
--
Paul-B Formula 1 - cheat-free version coming soon.
Doc Knutsen
"Paul-B" <pa...@rasf1.net> skrev i melding
news:525obnF...@mid.individual.net...
Hm, reckon I'd better keep my copy then...at this rate, selling it might
finance a whole season of racing in a couple of years' time :o)
Doc
Doc Knutsen
Confused? Whaddya think I am....I saw the first March-built BMW M1 in the
March composite shop in (I think) late 1980, the car they built was a
hot-rodded M1, ie lowered (dor sills gone) and widened (huge wheel arches to
allow for pukka Gr V wheels, but still very much recognizable as an M1.
But the GTP version shows only token resemblance to BMW, with its "twin
kidneys" across the nose, between the lobster claws. It is most definitely
not the first M1 March built. Perhaps IMSA GTP developed so quickly they had
to run a proper GTP/Gr C machine virtually from the start? I wish I could
recall BMW policy at the time. However, while I would say the M1 was a
design that was easy on the eye, the March GTP car was an eyesore.
Doc