Berger's comments
David
GP? ESPN edited in the begining of Berger's interview right before
Hill and Schumacher tangled, so I missed most of it. From what I could
remember, Berger thought that the reductions in downforce and engine
power were a bad idea, and that the FIA should try to make the tracks
and cars safer (e.g. air bags). Comments?
David
Tim Flint
slowing down the cars is "Bull Sh*t".
Tim
David (s20...@math.gettysburg.edu.) wrote:
: Does anyone have a transcript of what Berger said during the Australian
Tom Karner [Consultant]
>Does anyone have a transcript of what Berger said during the Australian
>GP? ESPN edited in the begining of Berger's interview right before
>Hill and Schumacher tangled, so I missed most of it.
I think I still have the original ESPN broadcast of the race
on tape at home. I'll check tonight. Berger did indeed
suggest that airbags should be looked into. I never really
liked them, the idea of chemicals exploding right in front
of my face doesn't appeal to me. Airbags prevent a driver
with a loose fitting seat belt (or no seat belt at all) from
impacting the windshield, dashboard, and steering column
of a car in the process of being crushed. If the seat belt
is secure enough and the driver's cockpit is rigid enough
then the driver shouldn't even touch a deployed airbag.
This is my opinion and I have no empirical data on the
subject so if my assumptions are incorrect, someone
please correct me. I assume Gerhard Berger knows more about
this than me, so if he suggested airbags then there must be
something I'm missing.
Tom
scopel...@corning.com
I think that the big issue is the movement of the driver's head which cannot
be as easily "belted in" as the body. Airbags may well prevent or drastically
diminish the snap of the head (e.g. Ernie Irvan's crash).
>
> Tom
--
Pat Scopelliti | Don't blame Corning for these views.
Corning Incorporated | Just me.
scopel...@corning.com |
Mark Teed
I am new to the Usenet so please bear with me.... Thanks
I recall an article I read in Autoweek (I think) quoting Zanardi
talking about his crash at Spa last year. He said after the crash
he was physically a couple centimeters taller because his neck
was extended so far his helmet hit the steering wheel. He went
on to say that when sitting normally strapped in the car there
was no way he could lean forward at all.
-mark
Sunit S. Carpenter
>I am new to the Usenet so please bear with me.... Thanks
>
>I recall an article I read in Autoweek (I think) quoting Zanardi
>talking about his crash at Spa last year. He said after the crash
>he was physically a couple centimeters taller because his neck
>was extended so far his helmet hit the steering wheel. He went
>on to say that when sitting normally strapped in the car there
>was no way he could lean forward at all.
>
>-mark
I think that if the helmet were restrained with a belt of somekind, it would do
more harm to the drivers. The brain would bang against the skull and cause
brain damage. When the helmet moves forward, the elasticity of the neck
provides some deacceleration to the brain. I am not an expert on the subject
so feel free to comment.
Thank you
sunit
__ __ _
| \/ | ___| | __ _ _ __ ___ _ __ Sunit Carpenter
| |\/| |/ __| | / _` | '__/ _ \ '_ \ 2w33ca...@vms.csd.mu.edu
| | | | (__| |__| (_| | | | __/ | | | Marquette University
|_| |_|\___|_____\__,_|_| \___|_| |_| Ayrton Senna: Rest In Peace
Steve Kim
would do
>more harm to the drivers. The brain would bang against the skull and
cause
>brain damage. When the helmet moves forward, the elasticity of the
neck
>provides some deacceleration to the brain. I am not an expert on the
subject
>so feel free to comment.
>
>Thank you
>
>sunit
Seems that Dr. Jonathan Palmer agrees with you. The following is an
excerpt from an interview with Tony Dodgins which Dr. Palmer talks about
safety in Formula One in Autosport 12 May 1994:
Palmer is less enthusiastic about fixing a driver's head more securely
to his body, as has been proposed in some quarters.
'You can't hold the hold rigidly, or the brain will rattle around the
skull and you'll get killed from that. The neck needs to have some flex
in it, to reduce the levels of g-force, because it's excessive pressure
on the brain that kills you.
'In reality, the human brain can't withstand much g-force. If you fixed
a motorist's head rigidly to their shoulders, you'd probably find raod
car accidents that have eminently survivable in the past decade suddenly
became fatal. The neck snapping forward does a great job of reducing the
amount of g-force on the brain-so in fact, provided the neck doesn't snap,
you're better off that way.
'However, I obviously don't think it is desirable for a head to be able
to come into contact with a wall-and you also want some protection so
that, in a case like Jos Verstappen accident in Brazil, there's a good
chance solid objects won't hit a drivers' head.'
Palmer suggests further reasons for not fixing the driver's head to his
body.
'If a head is restrained in a strap, I think it would become
distracting and uncomfortable for driving. It could well cause more
accidents than it helped. And you'd also have more straps to undo, to get
out of a car in a serious situation.'
Also in this issue was a little story re: Mercedes-Benz and their
research into airbags in a F1 car-however the project was just being
started upon.
Steve
Bob Gilbert
->In article <3bksot$chr$1...@tkarner.Warren.MENTORG.COM>, tka...@Warren.MENTORG.COM (Tom Karner [Consultant]) says:
->>
->>I think I still have the original ESPN broadcast of the race
->>on tape at home. I'll check tonight. Berger did indeed
->>suggest that airbags should be looked into. I never really
->>liked them, the idea of chemicals exploding right in front
->>of my face doesn't appeal to me. Airbags prevent a driver
->>with a loose fitting seat belt (or no seat belt at all) from
->>impacting the windshield, dashboard, and steering column
->>of a car in the process of being crushed. If the seat belt
->>is secure enough and the driver's cockpit is rigid enough
->>then the driver shouldn't even touch a deployed airbag.
->>This is my opinion and I have no empirical data on the
->>subject so if my assumptions are incorrect, someone
->>please correct me. I assume Gerhard Berger knows more about
->>this than me, so if he suggested airbags then there must be
->>something I'm missing.
->>
->>Tom
->
->I am new to the Usenet so please bear with me.... Thanks
->
->I recall an article I read in Autoweek (I think) quoting Zanardi
->talking about his crash at Spa last year. He said after the crash
->he was physically a couple centimeters taller because his neck
->was extended so far his helmet hit the steering wheel. He went
->on to say that when sitting normally strapped in the car there
->was no way he could lean forward at all.
Mark is quite correct. Remember also Paul Tracy's practice/qualifying
wreck at Road America. He completely bent the top of the steering
wheel over with his helmet.
Now whether airbags would really help much or not... that's a different
subject. IMO, part of the problem in F1 is that they require that the
driver be able to exit the car in less the 5 seconds. This unnecessary
requirement prevents the use of various restraints that might help
prevent a drivers head from flopping around too much.
-Bob
Jeff Snoddy
Cb> Also in this issue was a little story re: Mercedes-Benz and their
Cb> research into airbags in a F1 car-however the project was just being
Cb> started upon.
Cb> Steve
I cannot see how airbags apply to autoracing. Given the racing harness, how
could airbags provide additional protection? Airbags are only useful in
providing additional protection for 3-point restraint systems in frontal
impacts. Volvo has developed a b-piller deploying airbag which would be helpful
in side impacts, but this is a road car, not a race car.
Jeff
... Halfway through the corner, he ran out of talent - P. Gregg
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
Sonny Van Hook
> -=> Quoting Cby...@prodigy.com to All <=-
>
> Cb> Also in this issue was a little story re: Mercedes-Benz and their
> Cb> research into airbags in a F1 car-however the project was just being
> Cb> started upon.
> Cb> Steve
>
>I cannot see how airbags apply to autoracing. Given the racing harness, how
>could airbags provide additional protection? Airbags are only useful in
>providing additional protection for 3-point restraint systems in frontal
>impacts. Volvo has developed a b-piller deploying airbag which would be helpful
>in side impacts, but this is a road car, not a race car.
Jeff,
In an F1/Indycar, even though the drivers are strapped in pretty tight,
their helmets are not really attached to anything so in a frontal impact,
the head can still fly forward. Don't know if you saw the Road America Indycar
race last year, but Paul Tracy's rear suspension failed during practice and
he left the track at very high speed and hit something head on. The showed
the steering wheel from that car on TV. The top half was bent over at an
almost 90 degree angle because his head smacked it!
Roland Ratzenberger died from a broken neck. I think a properly
designed airbag probably would have saved his life although I do recall
that he hit the wall at an almost sideways angle so I'm not sure if/how
an airbag could help in that case. You'd need the high cockpit sides that
Sauber implemented this year.
--
Sonny Van Hook
so...@tfs.com
Bob Gilbert
-> -=> Quoting Cby...@prodigy.com to All <=-
->
-> Cb> Also in this issue was a little story re: Mercedes-Benz and their
-> Cb> research into airbags in a F1 car-however the project was just being
-> Cb> started upon.
-> Cb> Steve
->
->I cannot see how airbags apply to autoracing. Given the racing harness, how
->could airbags provide additional protection? Airbags are only useful in
->providing additional protection for 3-point restraint systems in frontal
->impacts. Volvo has developed a b-piller deploying airbag which would be helpful
->in side impacts, but this is a road car, not a race car.
I'm not convinced that airbags are the correct solution for F1, but you
would be surprized at the amount of movement, especially the neck and head,
can manage in a large collision. No matter how well strapped in the
driver is, his head can still easily impact the steering wheel and/or
cowling. Paul Tracy (I know not F1, but still a good example) bent the
top of his steering wheel completely over with his head in an accident
at Road America. An airbag, designed for a race car, might have helped
to cushion the blow some which could have resulted in greater injury
than it did. There have been some pretty serious head, neck, and back
injuries in F1 this last year, and better restaining of the head would
have reduced or eliminated these injuries.
-Bob
Jeff Snoddy
Rg> I'm not convinced that airbags are the correct solution for F1, but
Rg> you would be surprized at the amount of movement, especially the neck
Rg> and head, can manage in a large collision. No matter how well strapped
Rg> in the driver is, his head can still easily impact the steering wheel
Rg> and/or cowling. Paul Tracy (I know not F1, but still a good example)
Rg> bent the top of his steering wheel completely over with his head in an
Rg> accident at Road America. An airbag, designed for a race car, might
Rg> have helped to cushion the blow some which could have resulted in
Rg> greater injury than it did. There have been some pretty serious head,
Rg> neck, and back injuries in F1 this last year, and better restaining of
Rg> the head would have reduced or eliminated these injuries.
I don't dispute your remarks regarding P. Tracy's accident, but it does
supprise me somewhat. Without having the exact dimensions of the cockpit,
this is speculation on my part, but it seems Tracy's shoulders would have
had to move forward 8 -12 inches to allow this contact. I thought the 5
point harness racers use would have been more restrictive, allowing perhaps
4 - 6 inches of movement. Tracy has been known to drive with loose belts.
Whether this was a contributing factor, I don't propose to know. I can
conceed that an airbag might provide benefit by controlling the deceleration
of the head, and so reducing whiplash. But there is always the possibility
of unintended deployment, which consequences could be deadly.
Perhaps a cervical collar of some sort could be devised that would aid in
stablizing the neck in accidents.
Jeff
... You can do anything with imagination and enough duct tape.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
Doug Berger
I have had the "privelage" of responding to a number of racing accidents
involving open wheel cars and have found it to be more common for drivers
to actually BEND the steering wheels rather than contact them with their
helmets.
The most important thing to remember when talking about safety and
accidents is that what needs to be done is figure out ways to dissipate the
energy in the crash and to de-accellerate the driver's mass and momentum
safely.
To add regidity or more forcefully hold a driver in place IS DANGEROUS
since then the brain crashes inside the scull. A cervical coller or other
restraint is a win/lose situation. It may in some cases prevent or lessen
a neck injury, but at the same time it can increase the severity of a
concussion or other brain injury.
While the current technology of an airbag may not be perfectly suited to
use in racing vehicles, something of the sort will probably be extreemly
usefull once properly implememted. It does allow for a slower, more
progressive de-accelleration of the body and brain, and therefore should
under normal circumstances lessen injuries.
We also must remember that the teams and chassis constructors MUST put
driver safety as the most important factor in the construction of a racing
vehicle, until that is done, airbags won't help as much as they should.
Bob Gilbert
->
-> Rg> I'm not convinced that airbags are the correct solution for F1, but
-> Rg> you would be surprized at the amount of movement, especially the neck
-> Rg> and head, can manage in a large collision. No matter how well strapped
-> Rg> in the driver is, his head can still easily impact the steering wheel
-> Rg> and/or cowling. Paul Tracy (I know not F1, but still a good example)
-> Rg> bent the top of his steering wheel completely over with his head in an
-> Rg> accident at Road America. An airbag, designed for a race car, might
-> Rg> have helped to cushion the blow some which could have resulted in
-> Rg> greater injury than it did. There have been some pretty serious head,
-> Rg> neck, and back injuries in F1 this last year, and better restaining of
-> Rg> the head would have reduced or eliminated these injuries.
->
->I don't dispute your remarks regarding P. Tracy's accident, but it does
->supprise me somewhat. Without having the exact dimensions of the cockpit,
->this is speculation on my part, but it seems Tracy's shoulders would have
->had to move forward 8 -12 inches to allow this contact. I thought the 5
->point harness racers use would have been more restrictive, allowing perhaps
->4 - 6 inches of movement. Tracy has been known to drive with loose belts.
->Whether this was a contributing factor, I don't propose to know. I can
->conceed that an airbag might provide benefit by controlling the deceleration
->of the head, and so reducing whiplash. But there is always the possibility
->of unintended deployment, which consequences could be deadly.
->
->Perhaps a cervical collar of some sort could be devised that would aid in
->stablizing the neck in accidents.
Like I said, I'm not sold on the idea of airbags in F1 (or other) cars.
Also, any airbag used for racing would be quite different than those used
in passagenger cars. Racing airbags would have to require much larger
impacts to deploy, and would/could be much smaller as there is not much
of a problem with an out-of-place driver (a significant problem with
passenger cars, so wear your seatbelts!). Unintended deployment could
be a problem as well as the limited effectiveness in multiple collision
accidents. Cost effectiveness is another thing that needs to be examined.
You would be amazed at how much the neck can stretch in an accident. Yes
the five point harnesses do hold the torso very tightly, but the belts
do strech (they must, or more injuries would occur) and the body even
more. A driver can still contact parts of the car (steering wheel, etc.)
dispite being tightly strapped in. The only thing holding the drivers
head in place is his neck.
As for F1 and the use of other types of head restraints goes, well F1 does
have a logical sounding rule that the driver must be able to extract himself
from the car in less than 5 seconds. This is starting fully belted, with
helmet, etc. Like I said, this sounds like a reasonable rule on the surface,
but unfortunately it limits the use of other suplemental head restraints.
I beleive that this rule should be reexamined and possibly relaxed some.
I believe that this rule also compromises safety by keeping the height of
the cowling excessively low to aid in the drivers ability to exit the car.
A higher cowling might have significatantly affected the outcome of both
Ratzenberger's and Senna's accidents.
-Bob
Tom Karner [Consultant]
Here's something else to think about.
What if a car to car collision deploys an airbag?
This could prevent the driver from regaining
control of the car before he hits the real threat,
a concrete wall.
Tom