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Dave Baker

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Mar 13, 2009, 7:55:11 AM3/13/09
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I'm hoping to be able to write the occasional post with info from the horses
mouth a bit more often this year if my source will continue to correspond
with me. The long and short of it is McLaren are deep in the doodoo at
present. I asked if anyone was sandbagging and got the reply "Well if we are
it's being done bloody well because I don't know about it and I'm on the
team."

It seems that some time ago a number of McLaren bods moved to Honda and a
number of Honda bods moved back the other way. It was not a fair exchange.
Much of McLaren's expertise has left the building. Also since the departure
of Newey the car this year has been designed by a committee. You all know
what those create when they try to design a horse? Yep, a bloody camel.

Inside the factory they're called the Mullahs because when you get the call
to go and speak to them you know it's time to pray. I'm told the car is
great in a straight line and faster down the straights than anything else.
"If we were racing at Santa Pod we'd be in with a chance, it just goes to
shit if you show it anything remotely resembling a corner."

Inisde the team the smart money has been going on Button at the bookies.
We'll see how well he does. I'm sure he has the talent.

So why is the Honda (Brawn) suddenly so good? Mainly because the japs have
finally got the hell out of the equation. They were screwing everything the
home team were trying to achieve - mainly with more committees. One example.
The test team couldn't even get the car to fire up at a test session. It
finally turned out that the japs had changed the ecu wiring pin-outs of two
wires but not bothered to tell anyone else about it. With the wires swapped
it sprang into life but too late to achieve anything. Buried in red tape,
language difficulties and communication lapses Honda have failed to turn the
hundreds of millions of quid they've chucked at the problem into decent
results for years now. Maybe Brawn has finally cracked the problem. He needs
their financial backing - he just doesn't want them pissing on his chips
every day.

Best case scenario I'm told is that enough improvements might be found to
make the Mclaren competitive by race five but it'll be too late to affect
the season. No sportsman of the year award for Lewis this year.

More to follow.
--
Dave Baker


Mike P

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Mar 13, 2009, 8:12:20 AM3/13/09
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I also have a source who told me similar earlier in the week regarding
McLaren. "in the shit" was his exact phrase..

Didn't Toyota suffer for a few years with the same Japanese style of
going about things? Too many cocks spoil the brothel and all that?

Mike p

Brian Lawrence

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Mar 13, 2009, 8:17:07 AM3/13/09
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AC

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Mar 13, 2009, 9:31:39 AM3/13/09
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"Dave Baker" <Nu...@null.com> wrote in message
news:gpdhj4$qb6$1...@news.datemas.de...

I'm sorry, I missed a bit. The car *has* to be slow because Lewis is a shit
driver. And if the car doesn't compete then its his Dads fault. Where did
you cover these facts?

That obvious fact aside, are you suggesting the smart money is on Button
actually winning the WDC? Or are the betting on him to be the best
challenger to the "evil" Ferrari?

Whatever the case, it makes it more interesting for Hamilton watchers to see
how he does with a clunker of a car, especially with the implied pressure of
defending the WDC. Will he still out shine his team mate or will he become
de-motivated and sulky. If the car is that bad, this will be the year when
Hamilton shows his abilities or lack there of. Should be fascinating.

Mean while it would be fantastic to see both Rubens and Butts fighting for
the WDC and or the WCC after such a torrid time as Honda.

And I wonder if the Toyota suits learn the lesson?

AC


Mike P

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Mar 13, 2009, 10:10:16 AM3/13/09
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On 13 Mar, 13:31, "AC" <x...@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> "Dave Baker" <N...@null.com> wrote in message

Ah, Dave purposely missed them out to allow TCOMC to add them in
later ;-)

> That obvious fact aside, are you suggesting the smart money is on Button
> actually winning the WDC? Or are the betting on him to be the best
> challenger to the "evil" Ferrari?

There's a comment from Marc Gene floating around somewhere along the
lines of "even if we ran our car on fumes, we wouldn't be as fast as
the Brawn.." It's an interesting one, that's for sure.


> Whatever the case, it makes it more interesting for Hamilton watchers to see
> how he does with a clunker of a car, especially with the implied pressure of
> defending the WDC. Will he still out shine his team mate or will he become
> de-motivated and sulky.

I suspect he'll still comfortably out perform Heikki. I also think he
might throw it off the road trying to hard with a poor car a few times
like Mansell would do occasionally.

>If the car is that bad, this will be the year when
> Hamilton shows his abilities or lack there of. Should be fascinating.

Of course, we don't know what they tried on Thursday, but he still
seems to be ahead of Heikki in the test times. Then again, he won the
title with a car that was not the best on the grid last year, so we
know he can drive a car that's not perfect.

> Mean while it would be fantastic to see both Rubens and Butts fighting for
> the WDC and or the WCC after such a torrid time as Honda.

It'd be great to see Rubens win one after all his years of servitude
with Schuey.

> And I wonder if the Toyota suits learn the lesson?

No, they'll be like last year. Almost there...

Mike P

PoB

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Mar 13, 2009, 10:13:07 AM3/13/09
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"Dave Baker" <Nu...@null.com> wrote in message
news:gpdhj4$qb6$1...@news.datemas.de...

| I'm hoping to be able to write the occasional post with info from the
horses
| mouth a bit more often this year if my source will continue to correspond
| with me.

....snips....

| More to follow.
| --
| Dave Baker

Thanks for this, it is very illuminating - I hope your source does keep you
up to date.

All the best,

pOB


erschro...@gmail.com

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Mar 13, 2009, 3:15:01 PM3/13/09
to
On Mar 13, 7:55 am, "Dave Baker" <N...@null.com> wrote:
> I'm hoping to be able to write the occasional post with info from the horses
> mouth a bit more often this year if my source will continue to correspond
> with me. The long and short of it is McLaren are deep in the doodoo at
> present. I asked if anyone was sandbagging and got the reply "Well if we are
> it's being done bloody well because I don't know about it and I'm on the
> team."

You asked? What, you asked your navel? We're supposed to believe you
actually know people at McLaren?

Oh wait, maybe your source is Mike Coughlan?

erschro...@gmail.com

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Mar 13, 2009, 3:15:29 PM3/13/09
to

Yeah, like I have a source who told me "Buy AIG stock."

Ian Rawlings

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Mar 13, 2009, 3:35:29 PM3/13/09
to

> You asked? What, you asked your navel? We're supposed to believe you
> actually know people at McLaren?

Blimey, straight into the group, straight into about 100 killfiles.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
http://youtube.com/tarcus69
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/

AC

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Mar 13, 2009, 5:02:08 PM3/13/09
to

"Ian Rawlings" <new...@tarcus.org.uk> wrote in message
news:slrngrldc0...@desktop.tarcus.org.uk...

> On 2009-03-13, erschro...@gmail.com <erschro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You asked? What, you asked your navel? We're supposed to believe you
>> actually know people at McLaren?
>
> Blimey, straight into the group, straight into about 100 killfiles.
>

Oh good god NO. This one is particulary dense. Should be good value later.

AC


Mike P

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Mar 13, 2009, 5:12:26 PM3/13/09
to
On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 12:15:01 -0700, erschro...@gmail.com spouted
forth:

> On Mar 13, 7:55 am, "Dave Baker" <N...@null.com> wrote:
>> I'm hoping to be able to write the occasional post with info from the
>> horses mouth a bit more often this year if my source will continue to
>> correspond with me. The long and short of it is McLaren are deep in the
>> doodoo at present. I asked if anyone was sandbagging and got the reply
>> "Well if we are it's being done bloody well because I don't know about
>> it and I'm on the team."
>
> You asked? What, you asked your navel? We're supposed to believe you
> actually know people at McLaren?
>
> Oh wait, maybe your source is Mike Coughlan?
>

Hehe. You should be "entertaining" after the season starts.

Mike P

Ian Rawlings

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Mar 13, 2009, 5:21:46 PM3/13/09
to
On 2009-03-13, AC <x...@xxx.xxx> wrote:

> Oh good god NO. This one is particulary dense. Should be good value later.

Rather you than me, it's not like we're spoiled for choice is it!

APLer

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Mar 13, 2009, 6:37:59 PM3/13/09
to
"Dave Baker" <Nu...@null.com> wrote in news:gpdhj4$qb6$1...@news.datemas.de:

> I'm hoping to be able to write the occasional post with info from the
> horses mouth a bit more often this year if my source will continue to
> correspond with me. The long and short of it is McLaren are deep in the
> doodoo at present. I asked if anyone was sandbagging and got the reply
> "Well if we are it's being done bloody well because I don't know about
> it and I'm on the team."

> So why is the Honda (Brawn) suddenly so good? Mainly because the japs


> have finally got the hell out of the equation. They were screwing
> everything the home team were trying to achieve - mainly with more
> committees. One example. The test team couldn't even get the car to fire
> up at a test session. It finally turned out that the japs had changed
> the ecu wiring pin-outs of two wires but not bothered to tell anyone
> else about it. With the wires swapped it sprang into life but too late
> to achieve anything. Buried in red tape, language difficulties and
> communication lapses Honda have failed to turn the hundreds of millions
> of quid they've chucked at the problem into decent results for years
> now. Maybe Brawn has finally cracked the problem. He needs their
> financial backing - he just doesn't want them pissing on his chips every
> day.
>
> Best case scenario I'm told is that enough improvements might be found
> to make the Mclaren competitive by race five but it'll be too late to
> affect the season. No sportsman of the year award for Lewis this year.
>
> More to follow.


Not surprising. I've stated such was a likely possibility in the past.
Shame for that period that is *was*. Thanks. I guess Mclaren's salad days
are over for now. Funny, I figured BMW would take their place if anyone.

Bjorn Borud

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Mar 13, 2009, 7:37:43 PM3/13/09
to
["Dave Baker" <Nu...@null.com>]

|
| Inisde the team the smart money has been going on Button at the bookies.
| We'll see how well he does. I'm sure he has the talent.

I interpreted Button having better odds at the bookies than Vettel
more as belief in Brawn than confidence in Button.

-Bjørn
--
"Feel free to disagree with anything I say here, but please
do it entertainingly."
-- Pete Fenelon

Frank Adam

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Mar 13, 2009, 9:10:22 PM3/13/09
to
On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 12:17:07 -0000, "Brian Lawrence"
<Brian_W_...@msn.com> wrote:

> http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73695
>
>
Too late, Dave already told us. You have a competition now, pick up
the pace.. ;-)

Just wondering, did this ever happen before where a top team(ex-top)
as it could well be) would declare their cars so bad, so openly before
the season start ?

Only 2 weeks to go now, so we'll soon see. Certainly judging by the
prac times, the front pack could look quite different this year.

--

Regards, Frank

Berf

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Mar 14, 2009, 12:14:13 AM3/14/09
to
Frank Adam wrote

> Only 2 weeks to go now, so we'll soon see. Certainly judging by the
> prac times, the front pack could look quite different this year.
>

And, living in Canada in EDT time, I'm pleased because the race will be on
late at night, plently of time for drinking, with Saturday night Ice Hockey
leading up.


The days are back!


It's all good.

CatharticF1

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Mar 14, 2009, 2:27:20 AM3/14/09
to
Frank Adam <fa...@notthis.optushome.com.au> wrote in
news:av0mr4pn8ha8f30ki...@4ax.com:

Ferrari's F2005 certainly missed the target, though whether they knew is
less clear because they started the season with the modified version of the
all conquering F2004 and the Bridgestone tyres were far from Michelin at
most races that year.

And it wasn't pre-season but the McLaren MP4-18 was so bad it never even
raced. It was always about to come and overtake Ferrari but never turned up
during 2003. Eventually McLaren disappointed their fans by fessing up. It's
only usefulness was to be developed into the MP4-19 which didn't quite do
what McLaren had hoped either.

I think they are the last two disappointments from the big two.


--
CatharticF1

"What you thought was freedom is just greed."

Paul-B

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Mar 14, 2009, 3:15:48 AM3/14/09
to
Ian Rawlings wrote:

> On 2009-03-13, erschro...@gmail.com <erschro...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > You asked? What, you asked your navel? We're supposed to believe
> > you actually know people at McLaren?
>
> Blimey, straight into the group, straight into about 100 killfiles.

<sigh>

It's gmail again.

--
Paul-B

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.
I've watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
Time to die.

Roy Batty - Blade Runner

AC

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Mar 14, 2009, 5:42:41 AM3/14/09
to

"Bjorn Borud" <borud...@borud.no> wrote in message
news:m3wsatv...@borud.not...

Obviously. The driver can only drive the car he has. Would you back Fangio
in a crock of a car?

AC


Bigbird

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Mar 14, 2009, 7:08:23 AM3/14/09
to
CatharticF1 wrote:

> Frank Adam <fa...@notthis.optushome.com.au> wrote in
> news:av0mr4pn8ha8f30ki...@4ax.com:
>
> > On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 12:17:07 -0000, "Brian Lawrence"
> > <Brian_W_...@msn.com> wrote:
> >
> >> http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73695
> > >
> > >
> > Too late, Dave already told us. You have a competition now, pick up
> > the pace.. ;-)
> >
> > Just wondering, did this ever happen before where a top team(ex-top)
> > as it could well be) would declare their cars so bad, so openly
> > before the season start ?
> >
> > Only 2 weeks to go now, so we'll soon see. Certainly judging by the
> > prac times, the front pack could look quite different this year.
>
> Ferrari's F2005 certainly missed the target, though whether they knew
> is less clear because they started the season with the modified
> version of the all conquering F2004 and the Bridgestone tyres were
> far from Michelin at most races that year.
>
> And it wasn't pre-season but the McLaren MP4-18 was so bad it never
> even raced.

The option to use an evolution of last years car does not exist this
time. They must play catch up. I'd be surprised if they weren't half a
second closer next week and possibly closer still come the first race
but that still leaves them in the mid-field.

If there is anything to support your assertions with regard to Lewises
development skills we can expect to see Pedro in the car most of next
week.

> It was always about to come and overtake Ferrari but
> never turned up during 2003. Eventually McLaren disappointed their
> fans by fessing up. It's only usefulness was to be developed into the
> MP4-19 which didn't quite do what McLaren had hoped either.
>
> I think they are the last two disappointments from the big two.

--
Bigbird

Bjorn Borud

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Mar 14, 2009, 7:32:13 AM3/14/09
to
["AC" <x...@xxx.xxx>]

|
| Obviously. The driver can only drive the car he has. Would you back Fangio
| in a crock of a car?

nothing suggests that Button is comparable to Fangio. if it had been
an obvious comparison to make he would have had other options than
driving for Honda for the past years.

also, I don't think that comparing 1950s era racing with what we have
today is very relevant. the differences between teams have to a
larger degree moved to the right of the decimal point, a lot more
hinges on technology and the ability to perform as a _team_. I think
the 1950s was more rewarding of individual achievement.

Ian Rawlings

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Mar 14, 2009, 7:42:41 AM3/14/09
to
On 2009-03-14, Bjorn Borud <borud...@borud.no> wrote:

> nothing suggests that Button is comparable to Fangio. if it had been
> an obvious comparison to make he would have had other options than
> driving for Honda for the past years.

Blimey, he wasn't comparing Button and Fangio, or modern cars with old
ones, he was using an extreme example to illustrate a point, normally
it works but some heads are hard enough to resist any point, no matter
how hard it's thrown!

AC

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Mar 14, 2009, 9:12:27 AM3/14/09
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"Bigbird" <bigbird.us...@Gmail.com> wrote in message
news:xn0g7ng9...@news.individual.net...

Was it not Pedro complaining about lack of testing compromising the test
drivers if they have to step in at some point? It's a pity the car is iffy,
because I reckon he could actually do with some laps. Perhaps he will get
some car time simply because of that.

AC

AC

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Mar 14, 2009, 9:24:57 AM3/14/09
to

"Bjorn Borud" <borud...@borud.no> wrote in message
news:m3vdqc2...@borud.not...

The point being that confidence in the car IS the reason for betting, no
matter who the driver is. If you put a shit hot driver in last years Honda
no one would bet on him. Put an average F1 driver in a fast F1 car and his
odds reflect that.

Put it this way. Alonso is regarded as a great driver. Where are his odds?
Do those odds reflect his skill and 2 WDC's, or do they reflect on the
Renault? Or do we say Alonso is not all that because of his result last
season?

As I keep banging on about, it the car and not the driver that's ultimately
important. Winning a WDC does NOT make one a great driver. I just means he
has a great car. This also why I don't like comparing driver across teams. I
like to think that any F1 driver can win in a winning car. They are all
"great" for getting in to F1 at all. (we don't have any pay drivers any more
do we?)

So obviously Button's chances have increased with the performance of the
car. As I presume Rubens have. Equally, I imagine Lewis and Hekki's odds
reflect the McLaren's performance in testing too.

AC


Jeff York

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Mar 14, 2009, 11:27:26 AM3/14/09
to
"erschro...@gmail.com" <erschro...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Yeah, like I have a source who told me "Buy AIG stock."

Actually, that I believe.

Bigbird

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Mar 14, 2009, 11:50:30 AM3/14/09
to
Paul-B wrote:

> Ian Rawlings wrote:
>
> > On 2009-03-13, erschro...@gmail.com <erschro...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > You asked? What, you asked your navel? We're supposed to believe
> > > you actually know people at McLaren?
> >
> > Blimey, straight into the group, straight into about 100 killfiles.
>
> <sigh>
>
> It's gmail again.

I have reliable inside info that gmail and google groups are not the
same thing and that anyone who repeatedly has problems discerning that
is a bit dim.

--
Bigbird

Berf

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Mar 14, 2009, 1:23:39 PM3/14/09
to
Jeff York wrote

>
> "erschro...@gmail.com" <erschro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Yeah, like I have a source who told me "Buy AIG stock."
>
> Actually, that I believe.
>
>

Ben Stein is a guy who made a flick challenging Evolution, but he's also a so-
called "investment guru".

The ass called Merrill Lynch as a "Buy!" 3 weeks before it went tits up.

Gotta love those 'experts'. LOL!

Phil Carmody

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Mar 14, 2009, 3:15:25 PM3/14/09
to
Ian Rawlings <new...@tarcus.org.uk> writes:
> On 2009-03-13, erschro...@gmail.com <erschro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You asked? What, you asked your navel? We're supposed to believe you
>> actually know people at McLaren?
>
> Blimey, straight into the group, straight into about 100 killfiles.

He's been in my killfile for several years.

(".googlegroups.com>" -1000 733480 s) [rec.autos.sport.f1.SCORE]

Phil
--
I tried the Vista speech recognition by running the tutorial. I was
amazed, it was awesome, recognised every word I said. Then I said the
wrong word ... and it typed the right one. It was actually just
detecting a sound and printing the expected word! -- pbhj on /.

CatharticF1

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Mar 14, 2009, 4:28:43 PM3/14/09
to
"Bigbird" <bigbird.us...@Gmail.com> wrote in news:xn0g7nnm7ckc8e000
@news.individual.net:

I have them all killfiled in anticipation.
Mind you I do have many many exceptions now because believe it or not even
the ones I disagree with can be of interest.
Much like you two.. :)

Jeff York

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Mar 14, 2009, 6:59:43 PM3/14/09
to
Berf <be...@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't think that I made myself quite clear enough... I surmised
that his "source" had made the same decision about the OP that I, and
apparently several others, had done, namely that he's an arsehole and
had thus deliberately tipped him a duff stock. Personally, in his
position, I'd have recommended Lehman Bros. :-)

Berf

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Mar 14, 2009, 8:51:50 PM3/14/09
to
Jeff York wrote

I'm actually positioned pretty well for the near future. I'm cash flush.
Parked $30 K in a tax deductible savings account to substantially defer taxes,
and plan on throwing it into equities (mutuals) once I get a better feel for
the direction of the market. With any luck, doing so will help alleviate
the brutal beating my accounts have taken recently. I plan on retiring in
15 years, so I'm not freaking out.

David Melville

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Mar 16, 2009, 7:51:35 AM3/16/09
to
In article <gpdhj4$qb6$1...@news.datemas.de>, Nu...@null.com says...

> I'm hoping to be able to write the occasional post with info from the horses
> mouth a bit more often this year if my source will continue to correspond
> with me. The long and short of it is McLaren are deep in the doodoo at
> present. I asked if anyone was sandbagging and got the reply "Well if we are
> it's being done bloody well because I don't know about it and I'm on the
> team."
>
> It seems that some time ago a number of McLaren bods moved to Honda and a
> number of Honda bods moved back the other way. It was not a fair exchange.
> Much of McLaren's expertise has left the building. Also since the departure
> of Newey the car this year has been designed by a committee. You all know
> what those create when they try to design a horse? Yep, a bloody camel.
>
> Inside the factory they're called the Mullahs because when you get the call
> to go and speak to them you know it's time to pray. I'm told the car is
> great in a straight line and faster down the straights than anything else.
> "If we were racing at Santa Pod we'd be in with a chance, it just goes to
> shit if you show it anything remotely resembling a corner."
>
> Inisde the team the smart money has been going on Button at the bookies.
> We'll see how well he does. I'm sure he has the talent.
>
> So why is the Honda (Brawn) suddenly so good? Mainly because the japs have
> finally got the hell out of the equation. They were screwing everything the
> home team were trying to achieve - mainly with more committees. One example.
> The test team couldn't even get the car to fire up at a test session. It
> finally turned out that the japs had changed the ecu wiring pin-outs of two
> wires but not bothered to tell anyone else about it. With the wires swapped
> it sprang into life but too late to achieve anything. Buried in red tape,
> language difficulties and communication lapses Honda have failed to turn the
> hundreds of millions of quid they've chucked at the problem into decent
> results for years now. Maybe Brawn has finally cracked the problem. He needs
> their financial backing - he just doesn't want them pissing on his chips
> every day.
>
> Best case scenario I'm told is that enough improvements might be found to
> make the Mclaren competitive by race five but it'll be too late to affect
> the season. No sportsman of the year award for Lewis this year.
>
> More to follow.
>
Thanks Dave. You're awesome.

--
Cheers,
Dave

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