Brawn Bashes ITV F1 Coverage
Von Fourche
Brawn says ITV F1 coverage sucks, basically.
I post this not because I really care what Brawn thinks of ITV's F1
coverage but
because I am wondering if the ITV F1 site will post this story. Why not?
It does deal
with the big man Brawn and F1!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58461
"Former Ferrari technical director Ross Brawn says he has been unimpressed
by Formula One's television coverage in Britain.
Brawn, currently on a sabbatical from Formula One, has not returned to the
paddock since last year, and has instead watched the first three races of
the season on television.
The Briton says he has been left frustrated by the experience, and admits he
misses the amount of information he used to have available to him.
"It's definitely a new experience for me to watch it with a different
perspective and also the quality of commentators on English TV," Brawn told
Autosport magazine.
"I sympathise with you - it's a very frustrating business to watch F1 on
British TV.
"We're used to having all the data and all the split times and we can see
the race developing. What's clear when you watch it on the TV is that you
don't get that information.
"Our commentators don't seem very good at conveying what is going on. It's
very frustrating to watch a race and not have that information which is
available to everyone at the track. So condolences for that."
Formula One in Britain is broadcast by ITV, whose line-up includes James
Allen, Steve Rider and former Grand Prix drivers Martin Brundle and Mark
Blundell."
Bigbird
>
>
>
> Brawn says ITV F1 coverage sucks, basically.
>
> I post this not because I really care what Brawn thinks of ITV's F1
> coverage but because I am wondering if the ITV F1 site will post this
> story. Why not? It does deal with the big man Brawn and F1!
>
>
>
> http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58461
>
>
> "We're used to having all the data and all the split times and we can
> see the race developing. What's clear when you watch it on the TV is
> that you don't get that information.
You'd think he could afford an internet connection?
--
News
Bigbird wrote:
Teletext. Green screen.
Big Craigie
"Von Fourche" <Khon...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:E59_h.7586$j63....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>
>
> Brawn says ITV F1 coverage sucks, basically.
>
> I post this not because I really care what Brawn thinks of ITV's F1
> coverage but
> because I am wondering if the ITV F1 site will post this story. Why not?
> It does deal
> with the big man Brawn and F1!
>
>
>
> http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58461
SNIPPED
Ben Edwards and Martin Brundell would be a brilliant pairing. I've no
problem with Steve Rider introducing the program wth stuff from Mark
Blundell. Ted Kravitz does a good job down the pit lane etc, and well..
Louise...yeah she's OK. Am I missing anyone.....nah ;-)
BC
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Bigbird
??
--
Emma
>The Briton says he has been left frustrated by the experience, and admits he
>misses the amount of information he used to have available to him.
Well of course he misses being on the inside of a team and of course
it's going to be different but most F1 fans don't know anything
different!
How about instead of moaning he uses his influence to get Ferrari & the
other teams to make the way they do things more transparent?
Nah it's easier to moan...
--
Emma - The Chocolate Monster
http://chocmonster.rules.it
Phil Newnham
> Von Fourche <Khon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> The Briton says he has been left frustrated by the experience, and
>> admits he
>> misses the amount of information he used to have available to him.
>
> Well of course he misses being on the inside of a team and of course
> it's going to be different but most F1 fans don't know anything different!
>
> How about instead of moaning he uses his influence to get Ferrari & the
> other teams to make the way they do things more transparent?
That would be nice.
> Nah it's easier to moan...
The man has a point - only 30s searching for James Allen on the internet
will tell you what people think of him generally. Also the live timing
could be actually promoted by ITV - I don't think I've heard them
mention it once, although given how often it crashes with just those
that know about it accessing it, I guess half the UK audience logging on
would kill it completely.
--
Phil
Anand Nene
>
> "We're used to having all the data and all the split times and we can see
> the race developing. What's clear when you watch it on the TV is that you
> don't get that information.
Here's what I expect:
At the minimum, at any point of time I should be able to do
any of the following sitting in front of my TV:
# Should be able to select a car, driver and see the entire race
for that car/driver only; should be able to switch to different
cars at any point of time with press of a remote button. There
should be no delay.
# Should be able to switch to various TV angles using my TV
remote. (I think most would like watch the race in the on
board view)
# Unedited, in detail telemetry data should be available to me
on press of a remote button (Also it should present me with
a snail mail DVD option, mailing address for which I can
feed right there on the screen, and it should not take more
than 5 business days to ship it. Data from all teams should
be available to me) using which I should be able to easily
differentiate various *best* lines drivers are using to get
those timed laps, catch inconsistent breaking, forward speed,
steer input, lateral acceleration (front and rear), yaw rate,
brake line pressures, brake bias etc. I know most telemetry
software runs on Linux, so user specific OSS implementation
is also expected to be bundled in the DVD. The implementation
should include all the sources, and care should be taken
that it follows the best practices and conventions, else I
may not use it.
F.e.g. Rascasse parking could be understood better.
(ping: grahamh)
# I should be presented with a onscreen menu which lets me select
which team radio I want to hear (unedited). I may choose for
example to just listen to the radio and skip the commentary
completely.
# Split screen view should be made available to me. I would prefer
'n' split functionality (to begin with, atleast for the number
of driver entries for that race).
# Apart from the race track action, I should be presented with
an on screen option to navigate to other "places" around the
track. F.e.g I might like to zoom in on my friends at the GP,
all the hot chicks, or for that matter check out the parking
situation?
# The programming should also include an archive feature. While
watching a race on TV, I may get bored (happens) and I would
like to switch to some other old race which I enjoyed. All the
races starting from 1950 till date should be available for me
along with with various fine grained statistics, made available
at press of a remote button. I should be able to query almost
anything, anytime with a max response time not more than 3
seconds (Else I may sue)
# Live timing should be a part of the programming itself.
OK, all the above to begin with... until I put up my next set
of expectations :-)
(Puts the ball back in FIA's court, waiting for a fix)
--
"I went through there backwards one day in '95 and got a stop
and go penalty for making an advantage."
Paul Ian Harman
news:f1cc4j$ege$1...@news.datemas.de...
> At the minimum, at any point of time I should be able to do
> any of the following sitting in front of my TV:
And when we have gigabit broadband to every home in the world, that might
just be feasible.
Paul
larkim
> Brawn says ITV F1 coverage sucks, basically.
> "Our commentators don't seem very good at conveying what is going on. It's
> very frustrating to watch a race and not have that information which is
> available to everyone at the track. So condolences for that."
>
Wouldn't it be great though if he did a section during the race
(perhap sat in Brundle's seat) to convey properly what is going on? I
know he'd be biased as hell, but I don't mind that.
Matt
News
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletext
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_screen
Ah, those were the days!
News
Bigbird
Er..no I just didn't catch the seg. between the live timing, that Brawn
wants to see, already being available to the masses and...
--
Phil Carmody
> Emma wrote:
> > Von Fourche <Khon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> The Briton says he has been left frustrated by the experience, and
> >> admits he
> >> misses the amount of information he used to have available to him.
> The man has a point - only 30s searching for James Allen on the
> internet will tell you what people think of him generally. Also the
> live timing could be actually promoted by ITV - I don't think I've
> heard them mention it once, although given how often it crashes with
> just those that know about it accessing it, I guess half the UK
> audience logging on would kill it completely.
2 races back, MB & JA definitely made reference to themselves not
having access to some source of data temporarily, without explicitly
calling it the live timing, but it was obvious what they meant.
Last race I saw SpeedTV's coverage instead of ITVs, and I've got to
admit that I now think ITV's is utterly brilliant. SpeedTV seemed
to think that as long as they had a senile old Englishman, they
could recreate the MW era. Or more accurately, the MW error.
Phil
--
"Home taping is killing big business profits. We left this side blank
so you can help." -- Dead Kennedys, written upon the B-side of tapes of
/In God We Trust, Inc./.
AC
"Von Fourche" <Khon...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:E59_h.7586$j63....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>
>
Confused.
ITV sucks compared to what? The feed they get in the pits? Did the get
a fabo comentary in the pits too? Is there a supa dupa channel doing a
better job than ITV.
Not saying ITV is great, and Im happy to burn James Allen as a witch,
but I have no idea what Brawn is bleating on about.
AC
Bjorn Borud
|
| The Briton says he has been left frustrated by the experience, and
| admits he misses the amount of information he used to have available
| to him.
this is not entirely ITV's fault. most of the fault lies with the
powers that be in F1.
FOM, and the whole cloud of companies that manage the various rights
of the F1 circus, is a typical old-fart company when it comes to
interfacing with its users and giving fans what they want. indeed we
have the dodgy "live timing", but apart from not being very good,
they're very anal about trying to protect any data stream¹ one might
find useful as an interested fan.
the obvious way to spark interest would be to open things up more.
provide open data streams, provide more detail and do it in real
time. if you allow people to involve themselves you win. if third
parties take the trouble of writing software which performs better
data analysis (in real time, or post-race) that would not represent
any sort of threat to the revenue streams of the F1 "cloud of
companies". not even if the data is aggregated or re-distributed by
third parties.
they need to realize that the value lies in eyeballs glued to
television screens and in keeping public interest in the sport up --
not in over-priced mouse pads and the other junk that they try to
shift on the official F1 web site.
what I would really love is:
- an open protocol² for streaming live timing data
- more telemetry data, at the very least positional info
so third parties can make displays showing car positions in real
time so the viewer can see more than just what the TV producers
choose to show
- fewer, or ideally, no restrictions on re-distribution of timing
and telemetry data. (this would also allow fans to provide
infrastructure for streaming telemetry data and making it possible
to distribute load -- for instance I have access to lots of unused
bandwidth that could be used for this purpose).
- downloadable³ recordings of races, practices, qualifying etc
yeah, some might see this as pretty radical moves, but I think this
would do far more good than bad -- including, to FOM's bottom line.
if you get fans to develop software in their spare time, this is
infinitely more valuable than having to spend money to crank out
inadequate information systems.
| "I sympathise with you - it's a very frustrating business to watch F1 on
| British TV.
...and ITV isn't nearly as bad as the coverage by other TV channels.
if anything, the ITV coverage is usually better than most. I think F1
is doing itself a great disservice to shut fans out by not offering
services that are a *complement* to the TV coverage.
| "We're used to having all the data and all the split times and we can see
| the race developing. What's clear when you watch it on the TV is that you
| don't get that information.
|
| "Our commentators don't seem very good at conveying what is going on. It's
| very frustrating to watch a race and not have that information which is
| available to everyone at the track. So condolences for that."
again, this is mostly the fault of the powers that be in F1. they are
largely deaf when it comes to their fanbase. the biggest new
contribution to relationship to their fans being carbon fibre mouse
pads
¹) for the most part they succeed in that the protocol they use to
transmit the live timing data to the applet is...not the most
clever I've seen so writing software which fakes the live timing
client is a bit annoying, but not incredibly hard to do.
²) work with open source developers to design a protocol and leave it
to the open source environment to develop the client libraries
needed. it might be tempting for FOM to do this themselves, but
judging by the live timing system, I would advise against it.
³) races tend to turn up on the Internet anyway, so those who want
them get them are able to get them whether FOM wants it or not.
one can pretend that this isn't happening, which isn't a very
realistic approach, or one could ensure that it is done in a more
proper fashion.
it would be better if they just did their advertisers a favor and
made the video available for download. perhaps for a nominal
fee to cover infrastructure costs. where F1 makes money is mainly
through eyeballs. if the video is released a week after the event
it won't hurt TV either. I really don't understand why the people
who ultimately pay the bills aren't more demanding in this
respect.
-Bjørn
Bjorn Borud
|
| How about instead of moaning he uses his influence to get Ferrari &
| the other teams to make the way they do things more transparent?
moaning about it, is a start, given that he is Ross Brawn and his
opinion might carry some weight. I don't think that Bernie is even
aware of how much more they could do at very little cost to make F1
more fan-friendly.
-Bjørn
Bjorn Borud
|
| The man has a point - only 30s searching for James Allen on the
| internet will tell you what people think of him generally. Also the
| live timing could be actually promoted by ITV - I don't think I've
| heard them mention it once, although given how often it crashes with
| just those that know about it accessing it, I guess half the UK
| audience logging on would kill it completely.
following F1 on norwegian TV3 you get the impression that Live Timing
is all they have in addition to the video feed. they often refer to
it, albeit indirectly (for instance you can often hear that so-and-so
now has purple sector times).
often the commentators get confused about the order of the cars and
whom they are looking at. I would guess that this is because they
don't have the display showing where on the track the cars are and on
what lap they are.
-Bjørn
Bjorn Borud
|
| # Should be able to switch to various TV angles using my TV
| remote. (I think most would like watch the race in the on
| board view)
they tried this a few years ago, but it was no great success. largely
because in order to use it you would need to have a pay-tv
subscription, the whole infrastructure for doing this was too
expensive to run and selection of camera angles was severely
limited. for the end-user it was just limited and expensive.
I am not sure if the Internet is up to the task yet, and how it might
affect their TV revenue if they started a competing product for
streaming a live video feed, but I think it might be doable. one way
to approach the problem might be to put together a technology package
that could enable TV stations who have bought the right the option to
provide streaming services to their customers.
given the amount of cash Bernies companies have, I think they are in a
unique position to do new and innovative things that might change the
way motorsports are covered. someone just needs to have a chat with
Bernie and make him aware of it.
| # Unedited, in detail telemetry data should be available to me
| on press of a remote button (Also it should present me with
| a snail mail DVD option, mailing address for which I can
| feed right there on the screen, and it should not take more
| than 5 business days to ship it. Data from all teams should
| be available to me) using which I should be able to easily
| differentiate various *best* lines drivers are using to get
| those timed laps, catch inconsistent breaking, forward speed,
| steer input, lateral acceleration (front and rear), yaw rate,
| brake line pressures, brake bias etc. I know most telemetry
| software runs on Linux, so user specific OSS implementation
| is also expected to be bundled in the DVD. The implementation
| should include all the sources, and care should be taken
| that it follows the best practices and conventions, else I
| may not use it.
amen! I could not agree more. (though I am mostly interested in
streaming telemetry data with no restrictions on archiving them)
| # I should be presented with a onscreen menu which lets me select
| which team radio I want to hear (unedited). I may choose for
| example to just listen to the radio and skip the commentary
| completely.
again, this could easily be streamed on the net with no more than an
ordinary mp3 player on the user end. if they decided on doing it a
competent person could set it up before the next race. (the real
holdup is probably the immense number of lawyers that would pour sand
into the machinery at every point).
| # Live timing should be a part of the programming itself.
hmm, a thought just struck me. how about they give you a bunch of
text pages that you could choose between and overlay on the bottom of
the screen almost like subtitling is done some places.
| (Puts the ball back in FIA's court, waiting for a fix)
sadly, I think the FIA is stuck somewhere in the 70s. they are
terminally afraid of anything new.
-Bjørn
Bjorn Borud
|
| And when we have gigabit broadband to every home in the world, that might
| just be feasible.
many places in the world this is already feasible to a great degree,
but as long as nobody is making an effort to realize it, and as long
as they are afraid to open things up considerably, it will be years
away.
btw "open" doesn't necessarily mean "free". just as for the web,
which is based on open technology, using open and documented protocols
for transferring content doesn't mean that you can't have access
control if you want to provide a service for pay (or have some control
over resource usage). making things open distributes the
implementation cost and gives enthusiasts more freedom to actively
contribute rather than just passively make use of what limited options
are made available.
-Bjørn
Phil Carmody
> Here's what I expect:
Pay for the infrastructural upgrades. Up front. Or shut up.
> (Puts the ball back in FIA's court, waiting for a fix)
What kind of a delusional loon are you?
You posted this to rasf1, you didn't in any way inform the FIA
of your views, and therefore have put precisely nothing in their
court.
Phil Newnham
> 2 races back, MB & JA definitely made reference to themselves not
> having access to some source of data temporarily, without explicitly
> calling it the live timing, but it was obvious what they meant.
Well they're expected to have a data feed - even Murray had a data feed
back in the day. But it would be nice if they'd point out that we can
have a data feed or even, God forbid, mirror the data feed on the ITV
website, which is probably more capable of serving the demand than
formula1.com.
> Last race I saw SpeedTV's coverage instead of ITVs, and I've got to
> admit that I now think ITV's is utterly brilliant. SpeedTV seemed
> to think that as long as they had a senile old Englishman, they
> could recreate the MW era. Or more accurately, the MW error.
I think the only races I've watched completely on a different channel to
ITV were one on Canal+, and one in Brazil. The commentary was too fast
for me to understand on both occasions but the one good thing about the
Brazilian race was, they're allowed picture in picture adverts, so there
were no breaks. I know why the ITC is reluctant to allow them because
they know they'll be abused but from the point of view of F1 racing they
made very good sense and I missed none of the action (although I did
miss anything that happened off screen, of course).
--
Phil
Bjorn Borud
|
| 2 races back, MB & JA definitely made reference to themselves not
| having access to some source of data temporarily, without explicitly
| calling it the live timing, but it was obvious what they meant.
the live timing sucks. there seems to be a highly variable lag in the
data feed and there is no way of telling if the data you are seeing
reflects what is taking place on the track.
one could make an alternative client for the live timing system and
perhaps embed some diagnostic tools into it, but alas, the terms of
use don't seem to allow this.
(I tried to email the chap who wrote the code for the client at one
point but he politely told me to get lost (referred me to an email
address to which all mail goes unanswered)).
the terms of usage are a real problem. for one I would like a client
that has more analytical capabilities. for instance it would be
useful to monitor lap times for individual drivers so you could spot
trends etc as the race unfolds. I would love to have per-driver
windows so that I can monitor the past N laps or possibly show graphs
of sector times for selected drivers for the last N laps.
-Bjørn
Phil Newnham
> [Phil Newnham <pnew...@yahoo.com>]
> |
> | The man has a point - only 30s searching for James Allen on the
> | internet will tell you what people think of him generally. Also the
> | live timing could be actually promoted by ITV - I don't think I've
> | heard them mention it once, although given how often it crashes with
> | just those that know about it accessing it, I guess half the UK
> | audience logging on would kill it completely.
>
> following F1 on norwegian TV3 you get the impression that Live Timing
> is all they have in addition to the video feed. they often refer to
> it, albeit indirectly (for instance you can often hear that so-and-so
> now has purple sector times).
I think that's because the live feed just uses the same conventions
they've always used for the pitlane data feed. Do they broadcast from
the track or from a studio?
> often the commentators get confused about the order of the cars and
> whom they are looking at. I would guess that this is because they
> don't have the display showing where on the track the cars are and on
> what lap they are.
I thought ITV had at least a couple of screens in addition to the main
TV feed, but I don't know what they get on them these days. Maybe it's
worth emailing to ask, it's more likely to get a reply than "When are
you going to sack James Allen?".
--
Phil
Shevek
> Phil Newnham <pnew...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> Emma wrote:
>>> Von Fourche <Khon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> The Briton says he has been left frustrated by the experience, and
>>>> admits he
>>>> misses the amount of information he used to have available to him.
> ...
>> The man has a point - only 30s searching for James Allen on the
>> internet will tell you what people think of him generally. Also the
>> live timing could be actually promoted by ITV - I don't think I've
>> heard them mention it once, although given how often it crashes with
>> just those that know about it accessing it, I guess half the UK
>> audience logging on would kill it completely.
>
> 2 races back, MB & JA definitely made reference to themselves not
> having access to some source of data temporarily, without explicitly
> calling it the live timing, but it was obvious what they meant.
>
In Spain they do comment the live timing, but in such a random way that
is almost useless. Suddenly they say, e.g. "I see that Hamilton made the
first sector in 43s" without relating to other drivers' times or even
the fastest time at that sector.
Other times, however, they do a good job of comparing different drivers
at the same sector, and they usually keep track of the time per lap for
the first positions: "Massa is driving in 30's lows, while the others
are in 31's and the sixth one is in 34's".
--
Shevek
Bjorn Borud
|
| Pay for the infrastructural upgrades. Up front. Or shut up.
why?
this is about looking ahead rather than just reacting to what is
happening. slowly. F1 is not showing signs of looking ahead in this
area. it seems that they got burned some years ago when they tried to
do things with pay-tv and have since not made any significant attempts
at progress.
F1 races are already (illegally) distributed on the net as DivX videos
(as are most popular TV series). this is a *fact* and it is something
FOM have no control over. now, they can stick their heads in the sand
and ignore it, or they could have a closer look and see how they can
make use of this in a positive way. the worst possible thing they
could do is to put their lawyers on this. (sure, they have the rights
to the content, but why invest BILLIONS in reaching eyeballs and then
get cranky when someone else is making an effort to see the stuff? as
an advertiser I wouldn't be too pleased with this).
in any case it proves that the infrastructure is already adequate in
many places. perhaps not for streaming multiple high-def video
streams in real-time, but in time, more and more users will have
enough bandwidth to do this (my DSL connection at home is in fact fast
enough to do just that).
coming up with a technology platform that could increase the
efficiency of streaming content would be one way of scaling things up.
for instance, if my broadband provider could set up software for
re-distributing streams from F1 races, it would save them a *lot* of
bandwith use over peering connections (no, don't confuse this with
"peer-to-peer" connections among users, I am talking about the service
provider's connection to the outside world). indeed, I don't think my
provider would have much trouble supporting a fairly large number of
users doing this given the right software platform.
and hell yeah, I'd pay for a service like that unless it was packed
full of DRM-rubbish that made it useless.
and video is not really the only feed one would want. as others have
pointed out, telemetry and team-radio would also be of great interest
-- much of this you would even be able to stream over modem
connections if you needed to.
the infrastructure is there and has been there for a while. it is
just a question of quality of service and making good use of what is
already available.
| > (Puts the ball back in FIA's court, waiting for a fix)
|
| What kind of a delusional loon are you?
| You posted this to rasf1, you didn't in any way inform the FIA
| of your views, and therefore have put precisely nothing in their
| court.
if you know to whom he should talk: feel free to inform us.
if you are calling him a loon because you think this is unrealistic
from a technical point of view, then I am afraid that I'd have to say
you are largely wrong. much of what he wants is technically possible
already. it just needs doing and it needs doing right.
-Bjørn
Bjorn Borud
|
| I think that's because the live feed just uses the same conventions
| they've always used for the pitlane data feed. Do they broadcast from
| the track or from a studio?
yeah, I think the displays look much the same -- judging by what you
can spot on the pit-lane monitors when they show Flavio staring
depressedly at the monitors :-).
I think they are at the track most of the time, but not always. (since
they have a very low-budget coverage of F1 it really wouldn't make
much difference I think).
-Bjørn
Bigbird
> [Phil Carmody <thefatphi...@yahoo.co.uk>]
> >
> > 2 races back, MB & JA definitely made reference to themselves not
> > having access to some source of data temporarily, without
> > explicitly calling it the live timing, but it was obvious what
> > they meant.
>
> the live timing sucks. there seems to be a highly variable lag in the
> data feed and there is no way of telling if the data you are seeing
> reflects what is taking place on the track.
The live timing is excellent. Yes it needs improvement, the frequent
lag last race was annoying but seeing as it's major usefulness AFAIAC,
is to fill the gaps in the picture feed/commentary it serves a great
function even when lagging.
>
> one could make an alternative client for the live timing system and
> perhaps embed some diagnostic tools into it, but alas, the terms of
> use don't seem to allow this.
>
> (I tried to email the chap who wrote the code for the client at one
> point but he politely told me to get lost (referred me to an email
> address to which all mail goes unanswered)).
>
> the terms of usage are a real problem. for one I would like a client
> that has more analytical capabilities. for instance it would be
> useful to monitor lap times for individual drivers so you could spot
> trends etc as the race unfolds. I would love to have per-driver
> windows so that I can monitor the past N laps or possibly show graphs
> of sector times for selected drivers for the last N laps.
>
I'm sure a lot of people would love to see the data turned into a
visual track representation. (Of course this would have to be
predictive or lag significantly).
--
Bjorn Borud
|
| The live timing is excellent. Yes it needs improvement, the frequent
| lag last race was annoying but seeing as it's major usefulness AFAIAC,
| is to fill the gaps in the picture feed/commentary it serves a great
| function even when lagging.
it is better than nothing. the fact that it is closed is worse than
the fact that it lags though. it would be much more interesting to
see what people would do with the data if they could just have open
access to the raw data stream.
| I'm sure a lot of people would love to see the data turned into a
| visual track representation. (Of course this would have to be
| predictive or lag significantly).
there is one business area where you'll find lots of people who have
experience with handling laggy and lossy data: the gaming industry.
specificly the sort of people who write software for online games
:-).
(unfortunately, the gaming industry also contains a lot of people who
make horribly ugly protocols and terribly messy code).
-Bjørn
Paul-B
> [Phil Carmody <thefatphi...@yahoo.co.uk>]
> >
> > Pay for the infrastructural upgrades. Up front. Or shut up.
>
> why?
>
> this is about looking ahead rather than just reacting to what is
> happening. slowly. F1 is not showing signs of looking ahead in this
> area. it seems that they got burned some years ago when they tried to
> do things with pay-tv and have since not made any significant attempts
> at progress.
>
> F1 races are already (illegally) distributed on the net as DivX videos
> (as are most popular TV series). this is a fact and it is something
> FOM have no control over. now, they can stick their heads in the sand
> and ignore it, or they could have a closer look and see how they can
> make use of this in a positive way. the worst possible thing they
> could do is to put their lawyers on this. (sure, they have the rights
> to the content, but why invest BILLIONS in reaching eyeballs and then
> get cranky when someone else is making an effort to see the stuff? as
> an advertiser I wouldn't be too pleased with this).
>
> in any case it proves that the infrastructure is already adequate in
> many places. perhaps not for streaming multiple high-def video
> streams in real-time, but in time, more and more users will have
> enough bandwidth to do this (my DSL connection at home is in fact fast
> enough to do just that).
>
> coming up with a technology platform that could increase the
> efficiency of streaming content would be one way of scaling things up.
> for instance, if my broadband provider could set up software for
> re-distributing streams from F1 races, it would save them a lot of
> bandwith use over peering connections (no, don't confuse this with
> "peer-to-peer" connections among users, I am talking about the service
> provider's connection to the outside world). indeed, I don't think my
> provider would have much trouble supporting a fairly large number of
> users doing this given the right software platform.
>
> and hell yeah, I'd pay for a service like that unless it was packed
> full of DRM-rubbish that made it useless.
>
> and video is not really the only feed one would want. as others have
> pointed out, telemetry and team-radio would also be of great interest
> -- much of this you would even be able to stream over modem
> connections if you needed to.
>
> the infrastructure is there and has been there for a while. it is
> just a question of quality of service and making good use of what is
> already available.
>
> | > (Puts the ball back in FIA's court, waiting for a fix)
> >
> > What kind of a delusional loon are you?
> > You posted this to rasf1, you didn't in any way inform the FIA
> > of your views, and therefore have put precisely nothing in their
> > court.
>
> if you know to whom he should talk: feel free to inform us.
>
> if you are calling him a loon because you think this is unrealistic
> from a technical point of view, then I am afraid that I'd have to say
> you are largely wrong. much of what he wants is technically possible
> already. it just needs doing and it needs doing right.
>
I think you missed the point Phil was making here. Anand posted "Puts
the ball back in FIA's court, waiting for a fix" when he did no such
thing (unless you are delusional enough to think that the FIA reads
rasf1).
Anand most certainly did *not* put the ball back in the FIA's court. Or
do you know something we do not?
--
Paul-B Formula 1 - cheat-free version here now.
Bjorn Borud
|
| I think you missed the point Phil was making here. Anand posted "Puts
| the ball back in FIA's court, waiting for a fix" when he did no such
| thing (unless you are delusional enough to think that the FIA reads
| rasf1).
|
| Anand most certainly did *not* put the ball back in the FIA's court. Or
| do you know something we do not?
perhaps he was counting on the off chance that someone who has ties to
FIA might be doing what any image-aware company does today: to keep an
eye on where they are being discussed.
it would be nice to have a way to interact with the FIA or FOM
officials. I have tried to make suggestions for improvements in the
live timing system in the past, but it doesn't seem that they feel it
is very important to respond to even very concrete feedback¹.
¹) as mentioned before, I did contact the fellow who wrote the Live
Timing applet, but all he could do was to point me in the direction
of an official email address -- where emails go unanswered.
-Bjørn
David Melville
Khon...@hotmail.com says...
>
>
>
> Brawn says ITV F1 coverage sucks, basically.
>
> I post this not because I really care what Brawn thinks of ITV's F1
> coverage but
> because I am wondering if the ITV F1 site will post this story. Why not?
> It does deal
> with the big man Brawn and F1!
>
>
>
> http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58461
>
>
> "Former Ferrari technical director Ross Brawn says he has been unimpressed
> by Formula One's television coverage in Britain.
>
> Brawn, currently on a sabbatical from Formula One, has not returned to the
> paddock since last year, and has instead watched the first three races of
> the season on television.
>
> misses the amount of information he used to have available to him.
>
Come on Ross! Sit in the grandstands and you'll be even _less_ aware of
what's going on. Jesus! We don't all have real-time telemetry.
> "It's definitely a new experience for me to watch it with a different
> perspective and also the quality of commentators on English TV," Brawn told
> Autosport magazine.
>
> "I sympathise with you - it's a very frustrating business to watch F1 on
> British TV.
>
> "We're used to having all the data and all the split times and we can see
> the race developing. What's clear when you watch it on the TV is that you
> don't get that information.
>
What a genius.
> "Our commentators don't seem very good at conveying what is going on. It's
> very frustrating to watch a race and not have that information which is
> available to everyone at the track. So condolences for that."
All the way, except I would not include Brundle in that - at all.
--
Dave
"I wish that this were not our problem."
- Australian Prime Minister John Howard showing
compassion for refugees... an "Australian Value"
David Melville
thefatphi...@yahoo.co.uk says...
> could recreate the MW era. Or more accurately, the MW error.
>
> Phil
>
<g>
Nice one!
David Melville
>
> there is one business area where you'll find lots of people who have
> experience with handling laggy and lossy data: the gaming industry.
> specificly the sort of people who write software for online games
> :-).
>
> (unfortunately, the gaming industry also contains a lot of people who
> make horribly ugly protocols and terribly messy code).
>
> -Bjørn
>
I think you'll find just as fugly coding in the corporate sector!
Oh, btw, have you downloaded the latest Microsoft Update? ;-P
David Melville
[snip]
>
> sadly, I think the FIA is stuck somewhere in the 70s. they are
> terminally afraid of anything new.
>
> -Bjørn
>
...like mass dampers, f'rinstance?
<ducks>
Bjorn Borud
|
| I think you'll find just as fugly coding in the corporate sector!
indeed. one reason lots of companies do not open source code where it
would otherwise make perfect sense, is because they are embarrassed to
show the world exactly how messy their code is.
which is why I'd prefer a simple, but efficient protocol for just
streaming the raw data and leave it up to the open source community to
build libraries and applications that present the timing and telemetry
data.
| Oh, btw, have you downloaded the latest Microsoft Update? ;-P
I run Linux on all my desktops and OSX on my laptop, so no :-).
(I do have a gaming machine that runs Windows XP, but I'm not doing
much gaming on it anymore, and I have moved my music production tools
to OSX, so it will most likely be recycled as a Linux workstation if
anything on it stops working.)
-Bjørn
Bjorn Borud
|
| ...like mass dampers, f'rinstance?
I was talking more in terms of relating to fans of the sport and
tracking trends in how people use technology for entertainment and
information access.
I mean, just look at the tragic F1 website. the only thing good about
it is that it isn't filled with MORE flash-crap.
-Bjørn
David Melville
Not Bernie Ecclestone
>On May 3, 12:25 am, "Von Fourche" <Khonak...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Brawn says ITV F1 coverage sucks, basically.
>
>> "Our commentators don't seem very good at conveying what is going on. It's
>> very frustrating to watch a race and not have that information which is
>> available to everyone at the track. So condolences for that."
>>
>
>Wouldn't it be great though if he did a section during the race
>(perhap sat in Brundle's seat) to convey properly what is going on? I
>know he'd be biased as hell, but I don't mind that.
It would be a logistical nightmare - have you seen the size of Brawn's
arse?
--
Tony Gartshore
> very frustrating to watch a race and not have that information which is
> available to everyone at the track.
>
they ?
Sounds like he needs to go sit in the grandstand at a race.
T.
--
Do Binary Tripods have 11 legs ?
Von Fourche
"Anand Nene" <anandn...@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:f1cc4j$ege$1...@news.datemas.de...
> On Wed, 02 May 2007 at 23:25 GMT, Von Fourche wrote:
>>
>> "We're used to having all the data and all the split times and we can see
>> the race developing. What's clear when you watch it on the TV is that you
>> don't get that information.
>
>
> any of the following sitting in front of my TV:
>
> # Should be able to select a car, driver and see the entire race
> for that car/driver only; should be able to switch to different
> cars at any point of time with press of a remote button. There
> should be no delay.
>
> # Should be able to switch to various TV angles using my TV
> remote. (I think most would like watch the race in the on
> board view)
>
> on press of a remote button (Also it should present me with
> a snail mail DVD option, mailing address for which I can
> feed right there on the screen, and it should not take more
> than 5 business days to ship it. Data from all teams should
> be available to me) using which I should be able to easily
> differentiate various *best* lines drivers are using to get
> those timed laps, catch inconsistent breaking, forward speed,
> steer input, lateral acceleration (front and rear), yaw rate,
> brake line pressures, brake bias etc. I know most telemetry
> software runs on Linux, so user specific OSS implementation
> is also expected to be bundled in the DVD. The implementation
> should include all the sources, and care should be taken
> that it follows the best practices and conventions, else I
> may not use it.
>
>
> (ping: grahamh)
>
> # I should be presented with a onscreen menu which lets me select
> which team radio I want to hear (unedited). I may choose for
> example to just listen to the radio and skip the commentary
> completely.
>
> 'n' split functionality (to begin with, atleast for the number
> of driver entries for that race).
>
> # Apart from the race track action, I should be presented with
> an on screen option to navigate to other "places" around the
> track. F.e.g I might like to zoom in on my friends at the GP,
> all the hot chicks, or for that matter check out the parking
> situation?
>
> # The programming should also include an archive feature. While
> watching a race on TV, I may get bored (happens) and I would
> like to switch to some other old race which I enjoyed. All the
> races starting from 1950 till date should be available for me
> along with with various fine grained statistics, made available
> at press of a remote button. I should be able to query almost
> anything, anytime with a max response time not more than 3
> seconds (Else I may sue)
>
> # Live timing should be a part of the programming itself.
>
> of expectations :-)
>
> (Puts the ball back in FIA's court, waiting for a fix)
>
> --
> "I went through there backwards one day in '95 and got a stop
> and go penalty for making an advantage."
Von Fourche
"Anand Nene" <anandn...@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:f1cc4j$ege$1...@news.datemas.de...
> On Wed, 02 May 2007 at 23:25 GMT, Von Fourche wrote:
>>
>> "We're used to having all the data and all the split times and we can see
>> the race developing. What's clear when you watch it on the TV is that you
>> don't get that information.
>
> Here's what I expect:
I would like to have timing not only in the three sectors but for each
corner - show me
how many seconds it takes a driver to go thru the braking point of turn one
to the exit of turn one. Get even more detailed - the exit speed for each
turn, the braking and entering portion speed or time, etc...
Anand Nene
>
> amen! I could not agree more. (though I am mostly interested in
> streaming telemetry data with no restrictions on archiving them)
Restrictions on archiving? Are you referring to FOM watchdogs
and their nicely worded copyright notices? :-)
--
... and also a little bit of Simon Cowell with the old trousers up
around your nipples. Right Ill get em down by my knees for the next
one ... but be careful, cos what goes around comes around!
Anand Nene
>
> useful to monitor lap times for individual drivers so you could spot
> trends etc as the race unfolds. I would love to have per-driver
> windows so that I can monitor the past N laps or possibly show graphs
> of sector times for selected drivers for the last N laps.
... hey nice idea, never struck me actually!
Instead of one stream catering to all teams, why not split it across
different channels? As it is one chunk of data from the stream caters
to only one car... And how many really bother to track each and every
car on the grid. Support it, but let the user request for it.
--
We leave the massive turkey legs of northern America to the smaller
frogs legs of the middle of France. ... We high-tailed it out of North
America with a posse chasing us.
Anand Nene
>
>>
>> Here's what I expect:
>
> I would like to have timing not only in the three sectors but for each
> corner - show me how many seconds it takes a driver to go thru the
> braking point of turn one to the exit of turn one.
Yep, very nice.
--
I spoke to (Anthony Davidson) after yesterdays practice briefly tripped
over him in the pitline. Nine thousand miles under his belt, three
points on his licence already for speeding here this weekend [in the
pitlane]; hes a thousand pounds lighter, he may have been smiling when
he said on ITV, Bad news is I havent actually got any money to pay it
with, but I think its a breath of fresh air to see young Anthony here.
Anand Nene
>
> Well they're expected to have a data feed - even Murray had a data feed
> back in the day. But it would be nice if they'd point out that we can
> have a data feed or even, God forbid, mirror the data feed on the ITV
> website, which is probably more capable of serving the demand than
> formula1.com.
No data feeds for ESPN-STAR Asia, they start loosing touch moment
the live timing starts going haywire...
Having the chief test driver of McLaren cars as the commentator is
the only consolation for me, talks less, does not get too much excited,
does not indulge in wild comments, respects "Team Radio" signal, sticks
with what he does best, being extremely technical, with a nice easy on
ears, flowing tone, besides giving us a few insiders on Macca :-)
> Brazilian race was, they're allowed picture in picture adverts
Almost all motor sports in Yankeeland do this, IIRC.
--
Bernie: If (Michael) is such a big attraction to the Germans, why isnt
the place full Its not full because hes winning everything. We ought to
take him out, give him a pension or something.
Martin: No, no, dont sit opn the fence, say what you think!
Bigbird
> On Thu, 03 May 2007 at 11:45 GMT, Phil Newnham, wrote:
> >
> > Well they're expected to have a data feed - even Murray had a data
> > feed back in the day. But it would be nice if they'd point out that
> > we can have a data feed or even, God forbid, mirror the data feed
> > on the ITV website, which is probably more capable of serving the
> > demand than formula1.com.
>
> No data feeds for ESPN-STAR Asia, they start loosing touch moment
> the live timing starts going haywire...
>
What's live timing if it's not a data feed? Lol.
--
Anand Nene
>
>> > Well they're expected to have a data feed - even Murray had a data
>> > feed back in the day. But it would be nice if they'd point out that
>> > we can have a data feed or even, God forbid, mirror the data feed
>> > on the ITV website, which is probably more capable of serving the
>> > demand than formula1.com.
>>
>> No data feeds for ESPN-STAR Asia, they start loosing touch moment
>> the live timing starts going haywire...
>>
>
> What's live timing if it's not a data feed? Lol.
Dedicated channels for F1 broadcasters who have bought the rights?
I may be wrong, but thats what I assumed what Phil was referring to.
--
Its a class of one, isnt it Kimi Raikkonen.
Pete Fenelon
> I think the only races I've watched completely on a different channel to
> ITV were one on Canal+, and one in Brazil.
I've seen GPs in the States, France, Italy and Germany.
Believe me, after Bob Varsha even James Allen merely looks like a
fuckwit rather than an affront to the human race.
The German coverage seemed to think some guy in an orange car was the
only one worth talking about and tried to turn the podium ceremony into
a pissweak echo of the Fuehrer ranting over a Riefenstahl movie.
pete
--
pe...@fenelon.com "how many clever men have called the sun a fool?"
a_Frank
wrote:
>[David Melville <dmelville10@SPAMTRAP_optusnet.com.au>]
>|
>| I think you'll find just as fugly coding in the corporate sector!
>
>indeed. one reason lots of companies do not open source code where it
>would otherwise make perfect sense, is because they are embarrassed to
>show the world exactly how messy their code is.
>
A messy code shows a busy programmer. Hm.. nah, that doesn't work in
that profession, does it ? :)
>which is why I'd prefer a simple, but efficient protocol for just
>streaming the raw data and leave it up to the open source community to
>build libraries and applications that present the timing and telemetry
>data.
>
Unfortunately though, a lot of open source code tends to be similar to
what i write for myself. Modules of tight, purpose built executables
for my own use, the installation or use of which would bewilder a
person who doesn't know much about computers.
A bit like Linux. ;-p
--
Regards, Frank
Jim Millick
Pete Fenelon <pe...@stratos.fenelon.com> wrote:
>Phil Newnham <pnew...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I think the only races I've watched completely on a different channel to
>> ITV were one on Canal+, and one in Brazil.
>
>I've seen GPs in the States, France, Italy and Germany.
>
>Believe me, after Bob Varsha even James Allen merely looks like a
>fuckwit rather than an affront to the human race.
Speed is stellar compared to the CBS F1 coverage in 2005.
You haven't seen anything until you've enjoyed a tape-
delayed F1 race on Sunday mid-day cut into a 2 hour slot
with loads of commercials (at least 40 minutes worth). The
commentators made Bob Varsha look like a genius (I don't
mind Bob). They were so bad it's beyond description. The
podium shot lasted 45 seconds maybe. No pit reporting. No
press conference. Abysmal.
Jim
Bigbird
Part of which will be the live timing. When it goes wrong at the track
it goes wrong for everybody, teams, commentators, and those of us
relying on the f1 website.
--
Bjorn Borud
|
| A messy code shows a busy programmer. Hm.. nah, that doesn't work in
| that profession, does it ? :)
depends on your definition of "works". a programmer who produces
messy code *will* become very busy, but perhaps that is not what you
meant. :-)
| >which is why I'd prefer a simple, but efficient protocol for just
| >streaming the raw data and leave it up to the open source community to
| >build libraries and applications that present the timing and telemetry
| >data.
| >
| Unfortunately though, a lot of open source code tends to be similar to
| what i write for myself. Modules of tight, purpose built executables
| for my own use, the installation or use of which would bewilder a
| person who doesn't know much about computers.
the Internet exists because of protocols -- not the software
implementing them at any given point in time in its history.
if 9 out of 10 programs or libraries implementing a protocol sucks and
one is kinda okay, it is infinitely better than the current situation
with F1 data feeds. where you have one supported solution. which
sucks.
-Bjørn
Bjorn Borud
|
| Restrictions on archiving? Are you referring to FOM watchdogs
| and their nicely worded copyright notices? :-)
I just have to look at them to feel the bad karma they emit. they
might as well just say "you might be in violation of the terms just by
having thoughts about F1".
-Bjørn
Phil Newnham
I think it goes wrong on the f1 website a lot more often than it goes
wrong at the track.
--
Phil
Bigbird
Self-evidently.
--
Bjorn Borud
|
| I think it goes wrong on the f1 website a lot more often than it goes
| wrong at the track.
there needs to be a web-equivalent to Jackie Stewart, hammering some
sense into the people responsible for the web presence at FOM. I am
picturing someone with the personality of Gordon Ramsay -- as well as
the colorful vocabulary.
-Bjørn
Bigbird
> On Wed, 02 May 2007 23:25:24 GMT, Von Fourche scribed:
>
> > http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58461
> >
> >
> > "Former Ferrari technical director Ross Brawn says he has been
> > unimpressed by Formula One's television coverage in Britain.
> >
> > Brawn, currently on a sabbatical from Formula One, has not returned
> > to the paddock since last year, and has instead watched the first
> > three races of the season on television.
> >
> > "I sympathise with you - it's a very frustrating business to watch
> > F1 on British TV.
>
> Don't forget, on top of everything, if you watch the race on Digital
> tv (Freeview), it shows what's going on from 4 seconds ago compared to
> analogue tv. You can get the picture off of RTL faster then ITV
> transmit on Freeview.
Lol, WTF does that matter?
Besides which the delay is STB dependent. Neither of mine had a delay
that long last time I noticed.
--
a_Frank
wrote:
>> Don't forget, on top of everything, if you watch the race on Digital
>> tv (Freeview), it shows what's going on from 4 seconds ago compared to
>> analogue tv. You can get the picture off of RTL faster then ITV
>> transmit on Freeview.
>
>Lol, WTF does that matter?
>
>Besides which the delay is STB dependent. Neither of mine had a delay
>that long last time I noticed.
>
STB ?
My digital has a precise 2 second delay to free to air..
I wish i had 4 seconds. I could make it to the other room in that time
and watch the replays twice.
--
Regards, Frank
Anand Nene
>
> STB ?
Set Top Box?
> My digital has a precise 2 second delay to free to air..
> I wish i had 4 seconds. I could make it to the other room in that time
> and watch the replays twice.
LOL! I would need atleast 5 seconds. Besides I would need to get
a bit younger to sprint that fast...
--
Income Tax has made more liars out of the American people than Golf.
a_Frank
wrote:
>a_Frank wrote:
>>
>> STB ?
>
>Set Top Box?
>
Ah-duh.
Thank you master, i'm having a slow day here. :)
>> My digital has a precise 2 second delay to free to air..
>> I wish i had 4 seconds. I could make it to the other room in that time
>> and watch the replays twice.
>
>LOL! I would need atleast 5 seconds. Besides I would need to get
>a bit younger to sprint that fast...
>
Do what i did. Move to a smaller house, but if you insist on living in
the Taj Mahal, that's your choice and you'll just have to get fit.. :)
--
Regards, Frank
Anand Nene
>>>My digital has a precise 2 second delay to free to air..
>>>I wish i had 4 seconds. I could make it to the other room in that time
>>>and watch the replays twice.
>>
>>LOL! I would need atleast 5 seconds. Besides I would need to get
>>a bit younger to sprint that fast...
>
> Do what i did. Move to a smaller house, but if you insist on living in
> the Taj Mahal, that's your choice and you'll just have to get fit.. :)
Don't you have to negotiate turns? :-)
Besides I redid the flooring in one of the sections of my house
recently, and it ain't matted, making it slippery and I don't
generally wear my sprint shoes at home, unlike you. :-P
--
The world is filled with willing people; some willing to work, the
rest willing to let them.
Wobber
> a_Frank wrote:
>
>>>> My digital has a precise 2 second delay to free to air.. I wish i
>>>> had 4 seconds. I could make it to the other room in that time
>>>> and watch the replays twice.
>>>
>>>
>>> LOL! I would need atleast 5 seconds. Besides I would need to get
>>> a bit younger to sprint that fast...
>>
>>
>> Do what i did. Move to a smaller house, but if you insist on living in
>> the Taj Mahal, that's your choice and you'll just have to get fit.. :)
>
>
> Don't you have to negotiate turns? :-)
>
> Besides I redid the flooring in one of the sections of my house
> recently,