Cart to switch to normal aspiration
Dan Wiggins
Robert
for the IRL
"Dan Wiggins" <dan...@nospam.austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:J3fT6.91372$bv2.22...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
> http://espn.go.com/rpm/cart/2001/0605/1210027.html
>
> Dan Wiggins
>
>
Brian P. Sweeney
<dan...@nospam.austin.rr.com> wrote:
> http://espn.go.com/rpm/cart/2001/0605/1210027.html
>
> Dan Wiggins
CART is American Formula 1, anyway, so I guess they wanted to standardize.
Brian P. Sweeney
<R3...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> Now its really going to be confusing to the casual fan....I guess score 1
> for the IRL
IRL? Where do you get that? If CART got the inspiration for an NA engine
from another series, look to Formula 1.
Gary Silverman
"Brian P. Sweeney" <rascpro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rascproponents-...@max2-71.indy-timewarner.corecomm.net...
Yeah...... sure.
--
Gary
Jim West
>http://espn.go.com/rpm/cart/2001/0605/1210027.html
Well, I still think that the 1.8 L turbo would have been a much better
way to go, but as long as there is no rev limiter it really doesn't
make that much difference in the long run. I do wonder how they will
deal with the added noise at the street races, though. Maybe force
the exhaust through a turbo that drives nothing? :-)
--
James C. West (Jim) jw...@okstate.edu
Professor jw...@emag.ecen.okstate.edu
Electrical and Computer Engineering
Oklahoma State University
Mark Hewitt
> way to go, but as long as there is no rev limiter it really doesn't
> make that much difference in the long run. I do wonder how they will
> deal with the added noise at the street races, though. Maybe force
> the exhaust through a turbo that drives nothing? :-)
I believe these are called silencers!
lampard
and grooved tires? If the IRL is the source, can we can expect CART to
announce removal of signage from sidepods? Is Vasser's car a market test?
"Brian P. Sweeney" <rascpro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rascproponents-...@max2-71.indy-timewarner.corecomm.net...
>
Mark Blackwell
some advantages for the builders. Much of the research and development work
could be shared and used in both series. Even though the car it is going in
is vastly different, I would bet that many things could be say tested in a
CART car would also apply to the F1 car and visa versa.
Though in a way I hate to see the turbos go, I understand that times have
changed. At one point having a turbo on a street car was the coming thing.
Racing a turbo would provide the development. Yet that seems to have faded.
My car has one, but its the exception. More than likely more developments
that can be passed on to street cars can be made now in engines without a
turbo.
--
Mark Blackwell
http://www.aviatorsonestop.com
"Brian P. Sweeney" <rascpro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rascproponents-...@max2-71.indy-timewarner.corecomm.net...
Accipiter
news:9fk23j$1ao8$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
> Now its really going to be confusing to the casual fan....I guess score 1
> for the IRL
>
>
The article really doesn't say much, does it? It leaves open the
possibility that the engines will be smaller than 3.5L, but other than
that, it doesn't let on how restrictive the rules will be. Until that is
known, the relevance of the IRL to the issue will not be known.
--
Ron Payne,
acci...@usanospam.net
See my Field Guide To Open Wheel Race Cars:
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/cosworth/274/field_guide.html
.................................................................~o^=o>
Reply to group or E-mail address in message text.
Damon Scott Hynes
> Racing a turbo would provide the development. Yet that seems to have faded.
> My car has one, but its the exception.
I really believe thet there were more turbos on the road at the time
of F1 banning them in 1987-88 than there are now. Chicken or egg?
> More than likely more developments
> that can be passed on to street cars can be made now in engines without a
> turbo.
I read a discussion that points up that there is actually very little
technology transfer between racing and consumer automobile
development. It's all perception and advertising.
Crawf
> deal with the added noise at the street races, though. Maybe force
> the exhaust through a turbo that drives nothing? :-)
Surely more sound is better - F1 cars are spine chillingly loud in real
life, and it is a real experience to hear one. If that is what happens
without turbos, i'm all for it!
--
Crawf
"Opinions are like arseholes...everybodys got one."
cr...@jimmyc.co.uk
http://www.jimmyc.co.uk
Robert Price
> Organization: Philosopher at Large Enterprises
> Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.cart
> Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 22:11:26 -0400
> Subject: Re: Cart to switch to normal aspiration
again about the engine suppliers setting up their own series ??
Mark McCauley
it.
"Brian P. Sweeney" <rascpro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rascproponents-...@max2-71.indy-timewarner.corecomm.net...
> CART is American Formula 1, anyway, so I guess they wanted to standardize.
DRice
reasons I got to CART races...NO EARPLUGS! Just the sweet sounds of turbos
spinning. Bummer.
DRice
Crawf <cr...@jimmyc.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9flqr3$1nk$2...@uranium.btinternet.com...
Mark McCauley
things.
The latest IRL engines sound much more like the current Champ car engines
than you might think. Not all like the first, horribly sounding IRL engines.
I doubt that you can hear the "sounds of turbos
spinning."
"DRice" <d_r...@nospam.pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:VhvT6.3126$1Z3.2...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Jason Hoehn
> I doubt that you can hear the "sounds of turbos
> spinning."
Yeah you can,.. it adds sort of an extra harmonicto teh soudn of the
motor,..
Plus the big BANG when they shift is cool,... Thats won thing that I didn't
realize those cars did until I heard them for real,.. Seems like they don't
have the big "backfire" that they once had, (or maybe Im used ot it now)....
Anyone who's heard a champcar in the flesh knows what im talking about...
One concern I have is the noise. The cars are pretty loud now, but when they
pull off the turbos?... thats gonna be crazy for street races....
Champcars are loud, but not crazy loud either,.. i remember last year in
Vancouver, they had the little Speedvision GT touring cars there as well,
and those friggin Acuras were by far the loudest, most ear shttering cars at
the event. I had ot use earplugs for thos ethings,.. awful awful
sounding....
Mark McCauley
the same tracks, I don't think there's a big enough difference in sound that
the average fan would notice the difference. That's not to say the hard core
fans wouldn't notice some difference, but overall, I personally don't think
it's that big of a deal.
You will still hear that loud "BANG" as you called it, just not as often as
you used to.
The best place I've ever been to appreciate the sound of the engines is at
Road America. When they leave T3 going to T5 under the canopy of trees, the
sound is just magnificent.
"Jason Hoehn" <jason...@home.com.spam> wrote in message
news:1LwT6.110867$Ub.12...@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com...
Tommy Anderson Jr.
Brian P. Sweeney wrote in message ...
We think you may be wrong on that one. Read what was said and written and
comment with your head instead of your heart. Cart is in direct competition
with the IRL for fans, F1 is not. If you keep up with future changes, we
think you will see Cart following the IRL in a lot of changes. Hopefully,
this will bring the two factions closer to being one again. I am sure you,
as a fan of open wheel racing will be in favor of that. Be sure to watch
the Casino 500 at 8pm Sat. nite. If you cant go in person, that is. Its
gonna be, in Greg Ray's words "a hell of a show". Greg also said in that
same interview that he felt the reason Cart didnt race in Texas was they
didnt do their homework. Also said he was pretty sure they wouldnt be
back. Right on Greg!!!
T.Anderson, JR
TC
"Tommy Anderson Jr." <emar...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9fmhme$glc$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
It's a complete load of bull shit if people think that CART is influenced by
IRL or by F1. The automakers have more to gain by going NA and it shares
technology that is definitely more useful with what they do in real life and
with their "big brothers" in F1.
The fucking H-D Mk. I, or Mk. II is nothing but a shield of turbulence that
prevents passing on ovals and makes that type of racing under those
circumstances almost impossible at the very least. The need for the HD is
because of overpowered cars, caused by Turbo's.
I don't see any other alternative but to adopt NA engines. CART is
practically the last series in high speed racing that is using that
throw-back from the early 1980's and it's a waste of time. Road course
races would also improve as CART cars look and act very slow and clumsy
under the current set up. Turbo's were a great idea 15-20 years ago, but
now they don't match the capabilities of what can be done with an "atmo".
TC
Hondamaniac
stay in CART, but needs to stay challenged."
I'll bet Honda is out of CART. I really hope not, though.
--
Hondamaniac
http://www.geocities.com/hondamaniac
Honda Racing Rules!
TC
"Mark McCauley" <sm...@hawkpci.net> wrote in message
news:98xT6.45464$aW5.5...@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
> Having been to both CART and IRL races, and even having heard them run on
> the same tracks, I don't think there's a big enough difference in sound
that
> the average fan would notice the difference. That's not to say the hard
core
> fans wouldn't notice some difference, but overall, I personally don't
think
> it's that big of a deal.
All I know is that Turbo's sound like sewing machines when compared to
normally aspirated engines. The difference between CART and F1 is
certainly noticeable in sound.
Normally aspirated cars move quicker in short spurts as well, so that would
benefit CART on it's road tracks for the most part.
TC
Bryon Lape
the displacement. I'll love to see V-10 and 12s.
Marc P. Gregoire
> IRL or by F1. The automakers have more to gain by going NA and it shares
> technology that is definitely more useful with what they do in real life and
> with their "big brothers" in F1.
All this shit about racing to street technology is crap. All auto racing is
used for is a marketing tool. The fact that the IRL runs atmo and Toyota
were being a bunch of dicks had more influence.
> The fucking H-D Mk. I, or Mk. II is nothing but a shield of turbulence that
> prevents passing on ovals and makes that type of racing under those
> circumstances almost impossible at the very least. The need for the HD is
> because of overpowered cars, caused by Turbo's.
The Handford works on big tracks but was sheer retardation on bullrings.
> I don't see any other alternative but to adopt NA engines. CART is
> practically the last series in high speed racing that is using that
> throw-back from the early 1980's and it's a waste of time. Road course
> races would also improve as CART cars look and act very slow and clumsy
> under the current set up. Turbo's were a great idea 15-20 years ago, but
> now they don't match the capabilities of what can be done with an "atmo".
Turbocharged engines are what make CART unique, otherwise they are
just glorified formula cars.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Marc P. Gregoire
Web: http://www.crosswinds.net/~marcgregoire
Racing: http://home.dal.net/jmckenzi/
"It's Indy. It's all good." - tjmc
TC
"Marc P. Gregoire" <marcgr...@crosswinds.net> wrote in message
news:3B1EFC04...@crosswinds.net...
Bull crap. The HD has fucked up Oval racing in CART for some time. The HD
II is just another example. CART oval racing is boring (IRL is a good
formula for Oval racing, no good drivers though). Turbo's make CART say
it's unique, not make it unique. It's the same as using Methanol fuel, a
total throwback from earlier days when they had a fear of gas (petrol) which
has far more power in it, but fuel cells have improved since. CART is
working in the 1980's with it's technology over all.
They need to move on, and they can't use Methanol either, they have to use
gas. That's because Methanol is less potent when it comes to fuel
consumption, hence you need far more. Fewer pit stops would be the result,
and it would no doubt be a safer game with more passing on the track.
Once again, if CART used NA and gasoline, their road course races (which I
still think are what they're all about) would be better due to increased
acceleration, fewer fuel stops and also one of my favourites, better notes
from the cars. (I can't handle the sewing machines).
TC
TC
"Bryon Lape" <bl...@grey-net.com> wrote in message
news:3B1EF8C8...@grey-net.com...
I hear cut off valves on turbo's all the time. V-10's would be terrific.
Bring out the V-12's and you would be putting me in my seat at the Canadian
Grand Prix in 1990, when Lamborghini, Ferrari, Yamaha and a lot had racing.
Most of them didn't do very well against the V-10's, but the sound was
unbelievable.
TC
Brian P. Sweeney
<emar...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>IRL? Where do you get that? If CART got the inspiration for an NA engine
>>from another series, look to Formula 1.
>
>We think you may be wrong on that one. Read what was said and written and
>comment with your head instead of your heart. Cart is in direct competition
>with the IRL for fans,
Um, Tom, for my racing dollar, it is very much, and damn near exclusively,
a straight competition between F1 and CART. I never, ever consider
spending my coin on an IRL or NASCAR race.
I have two North American F1 races and several CART North American races.
For the amount of races I see in a year, there are only two series that
have a chance at selling me a ticket.
Cycle racing at Mid Ohio or Road America? Maybe.
Brian P. Sweeney
<tomc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Once again, if CART used NA and gasoline, their road course races (which I
>still think are what they're all about) would be better due to increased
>acceleration, fewer fuel stops and also one of my favourites, better notes
>from the cars. (I can't handle the sewing machines).
Interesting ideas.
As for the sound, CART cars are so loud that I can't be anywhere within 50
rows of them without earplugs, so claims as to tonality are dubious. I
have heard CART, NASCAR, F1, and IRL cars, in person. CART cars sound the
best, NASCAR the worst.
Gary Silverman
> the displacement. I'll love to see V-10 and 12s.
This should actually be very interesting. When it comes to the technical
aspects of engines, I admit I know almost nothing. But with the turbos, to
decrease speeds it seemed like they would always just lower the boost (along
with aero changes). We have obviously reached a point where, especially on
ovals, the cars (and drivers) can no longer safely go much faster than they
are already going. To control speeds the IRL uses the dreaded electronic rev
limiter, but what else is there? The rev limiter is almost universally
hated, yet one would assume that if there was a practical replacement it
would already be in place in the IRL. It seems to me that if CART goes with
a high tech engine they would probably have to drop all their oval races
(unless they plan to attach a huge boat anchor onto the back of all the
cars). To me it would seem pointless to have a high-tech engine on ovals
when they could go the same speeds with a low-tech version (due to speed
controls). Perhaps CART should consider using the current IRL rev-limited
engine for oval races and use a more high tech version for road and street
courses. This would make it more practical for CART teams to race at Indy
without investing a great deal of money for just one race. Am I completely
wrong here?
--
Gary
Jason Hoehn
> I'll bet Honda is out of CART. I really hope not, though.
Probably,....
Honda's cycle is swinging back to F1 again.. remember all those f1 wins,
then they got out?... SO they moved to Indycar, and then they win a bunch.
Now they are back in F1,.....
Manufactureres come and go,.. no biggie... Audi will probably be coming to
CART, and some speculation is that Maserati will be coming as well...
Olav K. Malmin
> > I doubt that you can hear the "sounds of turbos
> > spinning."
>
> Yeah you can,.. it adds sort of an extra harmonicto teh soudn of the
> motor,..
> Plus the big BANG when they shift is cool,... Thats won thing that I didn't
> realize those cars did until I heard them for real,.. Seems like they don't
> have the big "backfire" that they once had, (or maybe Im used ot it now)....
> Anyone who's heard a champcar in the flesh knows what im talking about...
oooooh! Indeed. But isn't the bang caused by fuel running directly
into the exhaust when the engine cuts off when downshifting ? When
watching F1 on TV they sounds like the engine is going to explode into
each turn.
The coolest thing i've ever seen was during Fontana practice and Casey
Mears was accelerating out of the pits. For a second or so there were
one meter long flames coming out of the exhaust pipes, accompanied
with a very long banging noise :))))
--
Olav K. Malmin
remove .spam when replying
Mark McCauley
turbo-charged.
"TC" <tomc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9fmon7$4mstg$1...@ID-15498.news.dfncis.de...
Mark McCauley
valve can be used to regulate engine power, not that it has greater
capabilities than an NA engine. The turbo is not about technology. You guys
are missing the point.
"TC" <tomc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9fmntv$56qp7$1...@ID-15498.news.dfncis.de...
Mark McCauley
new about turbo-charging. It's not technologically advanced anymore.
"Simon Shepherd" <shep...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:9foc9k$a3e$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
> So please, enlighten us !
>
>
Simon Shepherd
> The best thing about going to a small displacement turbo is that the
pop-off
> valve can be used to regulate engine power, not that it has greater
> capabilities than an NA engine. The turbo is not about technology. You
guys
> are missing the point.
>
Damon Scott Hynes
> same interview that he felt the reason Cart didnt race in Texas was they
> didnt do their homework. Also said he was pretty sure they wouldnt be
> back. Right on Greg!!!
>
> T.Anderson, JR
What homework? Glue a cinderblock on the rear wing to slow 'em down?
The cars were too fast for the geometry of the track. Won't be the
last time. Thanx for the insight, Greg...
Brian Jackson
"Tommy Anderson Jr." <emar...@mindspring.com> wrote
> Cart is in direct competition with the IRL for fans, F1 is not.
We've been down this crooked road of logic before. While many of us have
strong feelings about the IRL (and/or CART and/or F1), in the bigger
picture (the one where the idea is to grow the audience for all open
wheel racing) there really isn't a "direct competition" per se. Yes,
there is a competition for the currently available amount of sponsorship
and partnership (Ford, Toyota, Honda, GM, Nissan, etc) dollars. But the
real idea here is to grow the overall audience so that those partners
and sponsors reach a bigger audience and, in turn, are willing to invest
more bucks in open-wheel racing as a whole. (See F1 and NASCAR over the
past 20 years.)
> If you keep up with future changes, we think you will see Cart
> following the IRL in a lot of changes.
Name the "lot of them."
There are some basic goals for CART that may or may not be shared with
the IRL. Slowing down the cars is certainly one of them. Getting more
engine manufacturers interested and involved is another. Aside from
those I'm not sure just how, or why, CART would be following the IRL's
example. If the idea is for CART to lose any separate identity and just
get folded into the low-tech mediocrity of the IRL then they are insane.
I can think of no better way for CART to lose all the momentum that they
have gained in the international marketplace over the past 5-6 years.
While slowing the cars on the big ovals is certainly a goal, those high
speeds are precisely what differentiates them from F1 and makes many
race fans around the world take notice of the series. They lower those
speeds at some peril to their image.
> Hopefully, this will bring the two factions closer to being one again.
As long as Tony George is calling the shots as a dictator I doubt that
they will "be one again" as CART has it's own business model and its own
issues to deal with. CART can, and presumably will, use what they can of
the Indy 500 for its own purposes (and so far they are doing a bang up
job of it) but the IRL will continue to be a remora swimming alongside
the 500 while CART will have it's own series that, at least for the time
being, stands on its own.
> I am sure you, as a fan of open wheel racing will be in favor of that.
Not really. Spec cars do nothing for me when sold as big time racing.
Formula Atlantics (or even go-karts for that matter) can be great fun to
watch but they make no effort to pretend thay are anything more than
they are. Just because the IRL sanctions "the biggest spectacle in
racing" and hypes the crap out of it, that doesn't make the series
something more than it is.
> Be sure to watch the Casino 500 at 8pm Sat. nite. If you cant go in
> person, that is.
I think I'm getting my elbows polished that night.
> Its gonna be, in Greg Ray's words "a hell of a show".
He would have to think so since the CART boys won't be there to rain on
his parade like at the last race.
> Greg also said in that same interview that he felt the reason Cart
> didnt race in Texas was they didnt do their homework.
Ah yes, he and Tony George, the "experts" yapping on in hindsight.
> Also said he was pretty sure they wouldnt be back.
One need not consult with Nostradamus to figure that one out.
> Right on Greg!!!
Is this the same Greg Ray that Michael Andretti psyched into an unforced
error at Indy that possibly cost him the race? Heh. Truly one of the
best parts of that event.
//
John Clarke
>
>Is this the same Greg Ray that Michael Andretti psyched into an unforced
>error at Indy that possibly cost him the race? Heh. Truly one of the
>best parts of that event.
No, it is the same Greg Ray who, after being forced into an error,
continued driving around the track at a really slow pace, until he
caused the quite violent Jon Herb crash.
One thing is for sure, Greg does love those walls at Indy.
John
Brian P. Sweeney
<bob.p...@virgin.net> wrote:
> > From: rascpro...@yahoo.com (Brian P. Sweeney)
> > Organization: Philosopher at Large Enterprises
> > Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.cart
> > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 22:11:26 -0400
> > Subject: Re: Cart to switch to normal aspiration
> >
> > In article <9fk23j$1ao8$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com>, "Robert"
> > <R3...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Now its really going to be confusing to the casual fan....I guess score 1
> >> for the IRL
> >
> > IRL? Where do you get that? If CART got the inspiration for an NA engine
> > from another series, look to Formula 1.
> NA engines from Ford, Honda and Toyota, just like F1. Now what was that
> again about the engine suppliers setting up their own series ??
Oooh, good point.
Jim West
><Someone else wrote>:
>> More than likely more developments
>> that can be passed on to street cars can be made now in engines without a
>> turbo.
>
>I read a discussion that points up that there is actually very little
>technology transfer between racing and consumer automobile
>development. It's all perception and advertising.
I've never understood the idea that being closer to consumer products
should influence the ChampCar formula. We don't drive single seaters with
ground effect tunnels and wings that run on methanol. They should pick
an engine spec that is best for the racing product.
--
James C. West (Jim) jw...@okstate.edu
Professor jw...@emag.ecen.okstate.edu
Electrical and Computer Engineering
Oklahoma State University
Jim West
Hmmm...autoracing1.com is now saying that Robin Miller had to backtrack
on his reports about the TV package. Maybe he jumped the gun on this
one too? I think I will wait for an official announcment.
Jim West
>
>It's a complete load of bull shit if people think that CART is influenced by
>IRL or by F1.
Opinions may vary, but if CART wasn't influenced by the IRL I'm sure they
would have gone to 1.8 L turbos three years ago when the engine
manufacturers first suggested it. IMHO they should have, but for some
reason they never seem to solicit my input.