Should Tiburon be embarrassed?
Mitch_A
can wonder is whether Tiburon (sp?) is embarrassed for the sad state of
NSR?" Think about it for a second. We have a bunch of talented modders
(Simbin) that can take an "older" game engine and do the great things with
it that theyve done compared to the high dollar supposed "cutting edge"
technology of EA and its "not so great" attempts a simulating Nascar. Side
by side it isnt even close. You can clearly see Simbin are Racers at heart
while Tiburon are business men making games.
Another hats off to ya Simbin (and a shake of my head to you Tiburon).
Looking forward to the international release next month.
Mitch
--
Remove "nospam." to reply.
SuSE 9.2 Pro KDE 3.3.2a
Larry
But it ain't no GPL :)
-Larry
"Mitch_A" <na...@pacbell.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:aQsRd.1164$DC6...@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
flightle...@lycos.com
Nascar SimRacing is the new definitive Nascar simulation.
I really have to wonder if some of you making these comments have even
tried it, it leaves NR2003 for dead in nearly every way.
Rather, EA should be applauded for producing the finest Nascar sim to
date.
TW
>I really have to wonder if some of you making these comments have even
>tried it, it leaves NR2003 for dead in nearly every way.
Really? How are the mirrors workin for ya in NSR? Spotter? Last time I
checked these items worked out of the box for all Papy sims.
NSR is a 3/4 finished product, and nothing more. And btw, if NSR
leaves NR2003 in the dust, I would suppose all leagues are making the
move to NSR starting next week right?
flightle...@lycos.com
> NSR is a 3/4 finished product, and nothing more. And btw, if NSR
> leaves NR2003 in the dust, I would suppose all leagues are making the
> move to NSR starting next week right?
Most will move so fast you won't even notice the transition. :)
Steve Blankenship
news:1108765717....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
appreciated. Keep up the good work! ;-)
flightle...@lycos.com
> Bub, you are seriously entertaining, and don't let anyone think it's
not
> appreciated. Keep up the good work! ;-)
It is certainly not my intention to provide entertainment, I'm just
stating the facts as I see them.
It may surprise you but plenty of 'hardcore' race simmers are very
impressed with this latest EA Nascar effort and some very well
respected memebers of the community are writing glowing reviews.
I know you may find it a little hard to swallow that your 'beloved'
papy sims have finally been outdone but that is indeed the reality of
the situation my friend.
TW
>I know you may find it a little hard to swallow that your 'beloved'
>papy sims have finally been outdone but that is indeed the reality of
>the situation my friend.
Beloved? You bet, because NR2003 is still the benchmark. Am I blinded
by loyalty to Papy? Not in the least, or I wouldn't have shelled out
the money for the EA title.
I'm ready for a change...I think everyone is. But this one still has
work to be done to surpass what we currently have...my friend.
Steve Blankenship
news:1108785366....@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Thanks very much for playing - please try again!
Chad Rogers
leagues?
"Steve Blankenship" <steveNOSPAM...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:LridnaMNSsk...@comcast.com...
Schooner
it yet and ours is certainly waiting as no members are interested at this
point. Even OLR a big supporter of NSR is not switching until a patch comes
out to address a number of multiplayer problems. As is from what I read it
would be pretty hard to use this for a league due to the issues.
<flightle...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1108775233.7...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Darus
product that doesn't support AA? The one in which I spent all afternoon
yesterday scouring 6-10 sim racing websites trying to find a handful of
tweaks? The one that has a spotter that is worse than the "outdone"
NR2003? The one with car models that look like they came from 1988?
If I could overlook the horrible look of the tracks without AA, it
would be closer. How can a game that it 2 years old still offer
clearer, crisper and more detailed images at higher FPS than one that
SHOULD be taking advantage of the better GPU's out there? I'm not using
a slouch of rig either. If I could place side by side full screen
images of both games, (no enhancements, no cropping or resizing) at the
same screen res, color depth and max details, the easy winner will be
NR2003.
I won't go so far as to say I hate NSR, because there is a lot left to
explore. But side by side, I still give a good sized lead to NR2003.
Out of curiousity, (and I recall that you only have the demo), what
areas do give NSR the edge in?
Uwe Schürkamp
>
> Nascar SimRacing is the new definitive Nascar simulation.
You keep repeating this statement here in this group like it's your life's
mantra, yet fail to back it up with facts or comments where you think
NSR excels all other previous NASCAR sims. Care to enlighten us in
this regard, please?
Cheers & looking forward to hear from you,
uwe
--
GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61
Schooner
Look in the 2005_NEXTEL_Cup.pm file with notepad:
// Nascar Thunder 2004 Suspension File - Developed By Doug Arnao 05-21-03
// Revised 5/21-03 A-Arm placement to reflect a more relaistic in-garage
static camber setting
// Revised 5/22/03 Shortened Torque Tube length to 60 inches (was 100")
// Revised 6/06/03 Incresed length of steering arm
<flightle...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1108765717....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Joachim Trensz
...
> Thanks very much for playing - please try again!
At the moment, both the pro and the con side seem to refrain from providing any
tangible considerations and facts.
I'm currently a big fan of rFactor and GTP, I'm simply not an oval racer, but
how about a little a treasure hunt in NSR. There's something in it which I have
not seen mentioned here at all. It's in the physics, and I find it quite
remarkable. Anyone? ;-)
Achim
flightle...@lycos.com
> Ya and its a complete new sim too right? Not just an update of
Thunder?
>
> Look in the 2005_NEXTEL_Cup.pm file with notepad:
>
> // Nascar Thunder 2004 Suspension File - Developed By Doug Arnao
05-21-03
> // Revised 5/21-03 A-Arm placement to reflect a more relaistic
in-garage
> static camber setting
> // Revised 5/22/03 Shortened Torque Tube length to 60 inches (was
100")
> // Revised 6/06/03 Incresed length of steering arm
Well there is no doubt it is an evolution of previous titles in the
series but things do often evolve into something great which is what I
believe we have with NSR.
The new physics as mentioned in an earlier post are great, you now have
controllable oversteer and can put the car into a drift/slide that you
can collect up.
Mitch_A
I was originally comparing NSR to the current king of driving simulations
GTR not NR2003 (which it competes admirably though hardly perfect).
flightle...@lycos.com
> I was originally comparing NSR to the current king of driving
simulations
> GTR not NR2003 (which it competes admirably though hardly perfect).
>
> Mitch
You are really comparing apples with oranges in that case.
Steve Blankenship
news:37pti7F...@individual.net...
Fair enough Achim; just couldn't resist baiting our omnipresent new friend.
Was thinking it might be ymenard in disguise... ;-)
But physics and driving feel is the number one thing for me. I haven't dug
around in the files a lot yet, but I see the suspension files remain from
Nascar Thunder 2004, which Doug Arnao did for them a couple of years ago (at
least according to the file headers.) But for a bit of NSR physics
treasure, how's this bit from the HDV file.
DiffPumpTorque=250.0 // at 100% pump diff setting, the torque
redirected per wheelspeed difference in radians/sec (roughly 1.2kph)
DiffPumpRange=(0.0,0.05,1) // differential acting on all driven
wheels
DiffPumpSetting=0
DiffPowerRange=(0.35,0.05,18) // fraction of power-side input torque
transferred through diff
DiffPowerSetting=0 // (not implemented for four-wheel
drive)
DiffCoastRange=(0.0,0.05,1) // fraction of coast-side input torque
transferred through diff
DiffCoastSetting=0 // (not implemented for four-wheel
drive)
DiffPreloadRange=(10.0, 5.0, 1) // preload torque that must be overcome
to have wheelspeed difference
DiffPreloadSetting=0 // (not implemented for four-wheel
drive)
All the related diff setting values are at zero in all the SVM setup files,
which means you have a limited slip diff. That's one reason you can easily
do big lurid slides in NSR cars (at 170 on pavement). Cup cars of course
have Detroit Locker rear ends. Back when I was messing with the demo, I
changed the HDV settings to mimic a locked power-side diff and the rear
actually behaved a lot more like the cars in NR2003. Admittedly, slideways
is not the fastest way around, it is very easy to do, lap after lap. Drive
it in, turn it down hard and toss it sideways, then just floor it and steer
your way out. One-handed if you like. Bit like Ratbag's Sprint Car game,
but maybe even more forgiving here. (At least in that one you had to really
work the pedal to find some bite off the corners.) And as people noted
about the demo, you can do one-tire burnouts against the wall - which is
tough when the rears are locked together. The tire temps show it's not a
graphical glitch. Oops!
The ISI engine can produce a solid and challenging driving experience, but I
think the above offers a little evidence that EA/Tiburon have gone the route
of making it "seem" real to the masses rather than making it real in the
data and letting users learn how to deal with the result. And as the masses
are generally sure they could win the Daytona 500 given the chance, they
love the ability to recover from losing the rear end with ease. If it was
as easy to play outside of the friction circle as it is in this game, we'd
all be stars.
All of which means there's much less of a learning curve for people to get
up to say, 98% speed, and users will find themselves crashing a lot less.
The flip side is that driving NSR is much less involving than in NR2003.
The limit is much more narrowly defined in NR2003 but the game gives much
better feedback on where it is exactly, so that you know when you're
approaching it and have the drama of trying to tiptoe JUST on the safe side
of losing it. Flirting with disaster, if you get my drift.
In it's favor, NSR should be more accessible to a wider audience than
NR2003, as many are not prepared to or interested in getting on top of a sim
the way post-GPL Papy sims require. And who knows; EA/Tiburon may have hit
the difficulty level in the sweet spot for the wide acceptance they want. I
mean, we in RAS tend to think of Papy's Nascar efforts as big sellers, but
they're market pipsqueaks in EA terms. Am I incorrect in thinking Papy
Nascar games didn't sell as well after adopting the GPL physics engine? My
guess is NSR's exactly what they wanted it to be; real enough to call a sim
(which is certainly is), but not so much so that it turns people off. EA
wants to sell a boatload of these games to recoup the licensing fees and
they know that folks like us are in the distinct minority. So they've
tilted it a little in the easy fun direction, which means there's hard fun
to be had in it. Guess I'm more of a hard fun guy.
SB
Joachim Trensz
...
> Fair enough Achim
NSR errs a tad on the side of 'user friendliness' for my personal liking as
well, but as you've outlined, the settings are there, it just takes someone to
use them.
That said, what I was getting at at was that I am under the impression that NSR,
on top of having the highly detailed suspension and chassis model plus the
configurability of ISI sims, has a tire deformation model that seems to be as
sophisticated as that of N2k3.
If I'm right, NSR combines two assets which previously had been strictly
separated, which makes it a pretty interesting simulation in the physics department.
Everybody is entitled to their opinions, but I think in the best interest of the
simming community, NSR should not be discarded lightheartedly. It might have
hidden potential which deserves to be discovered, and used.
Achim
Steve Blankenship
> Steve Blankenship wrote:
> ...
> > ...I've never had a look at the guts of Papy's tire model
>
> Well, of course it isn't Papy's tire deformation model, but it feels like
it.
>
> The forgiving stuff you're dissatisfied with is a very forgiving slip
curve, and
> that's something that's easily cured in the config files by altering a few
> numbers in the slip curves (well, a few - it's 10 minutes of typing).
>
> But the basic thing is, it feels like a pretty good tire _deformation_
model,
> and that is something really complex to program for all I know. So, having
that
> in is quite something.
>
> Achim
Gotcha; just meant it didn't feel like Papy's tire model to me. I actually
graphed and tweaked the slipcurves in the demo and messed with the dropoff
function to create a less forgiving tire, which in concert with power-side
locking of the rear diff did make the cars more edgy and rewarding to drive.
But with all the talk about the demo physics being an old build and not
representative of the final build I just thought I'd wait and see what the
final looked like. Not all that much different. Wish I'd saved some of the
demo physics files to compare values! As delivered, the thing that came to
mind was that it felt about like Nascar Heat in terms of feedback. I'll
have to reinstall that one for comparison though, as Heat hasn't been
installed in a while... ;-)
But yeah, it is the same basic tire model as other recent ISI products (and
the previous Nascar Thunder games), which is to say it's a complex and
well-thought-out one. The game does have a solid physics engine under it,
so there's no reason it couldn't deliver a GTR-level driving experience with
the right variables in there. But since everyone's files have to match for
online playing, the fix would pretty much have to occur at the company level
and I have trouble seeing that happen. I think they're aiming elsewhere.
SB
Steve Blankenship
>
>So they've tilted it a little in the easy fun direction, which means
>there's hard fun to be had in it. Guess I'm more of a hard fun guy.
>
> SB
Jeez, I really should proofread before I send this junk! Meant to say
"there's LESS hard fun to be had in it ".
Better now...
Steve Blankenship
> Steve Blankenship wrote:
> ...
> > Fair enough Achim
>
liking
> as well. However, as you've outlined, the settings are there, it only
takes
> someone to use them.
>
noticed
> that as well, but I am under the impression that NSR combines Papy's
excellent
> tire deformation model with ISI's highly sophisticated suspension (and
> transmission, as you outlined) model, plus the configurability ISI sims
have
> always had.
>
> I.e., NSR is a hybrid of a new class, combining the previously strictly
> separated highlights from two worlds.
>
> In its default state, NSR may not meet the expectations of hardcore
simmers, but
> if the above is true, it is a respectable simulation with interesting
potential.
>
> I don't like excessive copy protection either (although I don't have a
prob with
> it on my machine), but NSR may be a little gem in the physics and modding
> department and should be given a very close look before discarding it
> lightheartedly.
>
> Achim
Dunno. I've never had a look at the guts of Papy's tire model, and the TBC
files in NSR look just about like they did in prior iterations with the ISI
engine. Don't have any old NT files handy for comparing values, but they
have the same inputs as rFactor save for multiple slipcurves, which the old
model could do anyway. So all I can say about the tire model v. Papy's is
that it's too forgiving and the car feels really dead as a result of it.
That was actually the first thing I noticed about it after driving it right
after NR2003; the Papy car just feels so much more lively while the NSR car
just feels very damped and dull.
Unlike some, I have no issue with copy protection or with EA or Tiburon for
making the game the way they see fit, and generally ignore all the marketing
hype anyway. But it escapes me how any end user can say this thing advances
the genre over NR2003 in any way whatsoever. Did some online racing with it
last night, and it was an all around poorer experience in my view. A
matchmaking service that can't even compete with the old version of VROC for
functionality, and even more warping than I see in NR2003 - this with 100%
broadband users. The shallower learning curve and the fact that you can
bang into each other without much effect will no doubt please some, but not
moi. And that turbo draft...
I bought NSR yesterday just to muck around with it and see what could be
made of it, but unlike some others, the more time I've spent with it to date
the less I think of it. That may change, but I have to say I'm thoroughly
unimpressed so far. Hope I run across something to change that.
SB
Joachim Trensz
Mitch_A
Im still in absolute disbelief in the poor reception to GTR. The demo2
really sets the standard high yet still almost nothing from this group, a
SIMULATION newsgroup. Half the people that come here need to go back to
their arcade roots and leave the sims to the men ;)
Steve Blankenship
news:yA3Sd.1818$DC6....@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>
> Im still in absolute disbelief in the poor reception to GTR. The demo2
> really sets the standard high yet still almost nothing from this group, a
> SIMULATION newsgroup. Half the people that come here need to go back to
> their arcade roots and leave the sims to the men ;)
>
> Mitch
That'll probably change when it hits worldwide release; as it is the buzz is
sort of trickling out rather than hitting all at once. The original leaked
press release did make quite a splash here.
But to be honest, some of it has to do with the buggy and problematic nature
of that generation of ISI engine. Took me tons of tweaking to get the
bloody thing to run halfway decent on my box, which runs all non-ISI sims
(and even rFactor) just fine. And now NSR is looking like another
tweak-fest. The first thing I noticed before even running it was that I had
to tweak the 3D config util to get all my video resolutions, just as with
the demo.
I have sympathy for the developers though, it's a ton of work to put one of
these games together, even one that uses middleware to get there, ala GTR
and NSR. I think the difference between those two says all you need to know
about the developer's focus and intent.
SB
Steve Blankenship
Just had to have another look. ;-)
FWIW, I had some old data in Excel to compare to the current stuff, and the
as-shipped NSR lateral slipcurve is considerably less forgiving than the
curves in rFactor, or any previous ISI sim or mod I had numbers for,
including the original GTR2002. Can't read the current GTR data, but as for
the overly forgiving slidey nature of NSR, it's coming from elsewhere in the
tire model. I mucked with the latpeak and longpeak numbers in the demo to
tweak it as that appears to affect the sliprange where peak force occurs.
And the range in NSR is considerably wider than rFactor for those variables.
Need to poke around in there some more. Interesting stuff...
SB
Joachim Trensz
...
> Just had to have another look. ;-)
>
> FWIW, I had some old data in Excel to compare to the current stuff, and the
> as-shipped NSR lateral slipcurve is considerably less forgiving than the
> curves in rFactor, or any previous ISI sim or mod I had numbers for,
> including the original GTR2002. Can't read the current GTR data, but as for
> the overly forgiving slidey nature of NSR, it's coming from elsewhere in the
> tire model. I mucked with the latpeak and longpeak numbers in the demo to
> tweak it as that appears to affect the sliprange where peak force occurs.
> And the range in NSR is considerably wider than rFactor for those variables.
> Need to poke around in there some more. Interesting stuff...
Yep, but a slipcurve cannot be seen isolated from the other tire parameters. If
I wanted to mod the _tires_ for less forgiving slides in NSR, I'd mod the slip
curve.
Achim
Joachim Trensz
...
> Yep, but a slipcurve cannot be seen isolated from the other tire
> parameters. If I wanted to mod the _tires_ for less forgiving slides in
> NSR, I'd mod the slip curve.
I forgot to add that the slipcurves probably interact, and Lat curve probably
cannot be looked at alone.
Achim
Steve Blankenship
Definitely there are multiple factors involved, and I haven't spent enough
much time messing around with ISI tire models to get a feel for how they
respond. Just wanted to point out that save for GTR (which I can't see
into) the NSR lateral slipcurve looks considerably less forgiving than any
other ISI curve I've yet seen. The longitudinal and braking curves are much
softer and look more like the other ISI slipcurves I've seen - rounded peaks
with gradual, initially convex shapes after peak, where the NSR curve has a
sharp peak and then falls off much quicker in a concave shape. They're ALL
identical pre-peak.
The thing I'm looking for in the NSR tire model that I don't feel now is how
the tires will load up as they near peak cornering force and then let go.
The edge of grip seems very soft and fuzzy now, though the sharply peaked
slipcurve would suggest something altogether different. So that's why I
think one of the other grip modifiers is where to look for the answer.
All academic of course, since you have to race online with compatible files.
SB
Kerry Grant
>
> But yeah, it is the same basic tire model as other recent ISI products (and
> the previous Nascar Thunder games), which is to say it's a complex and
> well-thought-out one. The game does have a solid physics engine under it,
> so there's no reason it couldn't deliver a GTR-level driving experience with
> the right variables in there. But since everyone's files have to match for
> online playing, the fix would pretty much have to occur at the company level
> and I have trouble seeing that happen. I think they're aiming elsewhere.
>
> SB
>
>
Do you think someone like OLR could manipulate the physics so it is not
so dumbed down and they could release a "patch" or config file to all
its members so they could have a more realistic experience? Or would
this be prevented by the license agreement or whatnot?
Thanks,
Kerry
Tim Paullin
"Uwe Schürkamp" <hoo...@hoover.dyndns.org> wrote in message
news:slrnd1ebsr...@hoover.dyndns.org...
> On 18 Feb 2005 14:28:37 -0800, flightle...@lycos.com wrote:
>> Why on earth should they be embarassed???
>>
>> Nascar SimRacing is the new definitive Nascar simulation.
>
> You keep repeating this statement here in this group like it's your life's
> mantra, yet fail to back it up with facts or comments where you think
> NSR excels all other previous NASCAR sims. Care to enlighten us in
> this regard, please?
>
> Cheers & looking forward to hear from you,
>
> uwe
Well, it's better tha Nascar Revolution:o)
Tim