And so it begins..........

JP

unread,

Mar 24, 2005, 5:32:36 PM3/24/05

to

http://first-racing.net/index.php?/First-Racing/news/

Tony Rickard

unread,

Mar 24, 2005, 6:12:06 PM3/24/05

to

"JP" wrote:

> http://first-racing.net/index.php?/First-Racing/news/

Yep. I'd suggest a lot more people know about GTS.exe now, I know I didn't.
With the way files get distributed around the Net I wouldn't mind betting it
will get more widely available than ever.

Seems a curious thing to do splashing this stuff on their website. The only
thing produced so far is an action against the sim community. Hardly seems
the sort of thing to publicise on their brand web site. I'd have considered
it best leave it to the lawyers in the background and make public statements
only if they really have to.

Cheers
Tony

Tony Rickard

unread,

Mar 24, 2005, 6:37:02 PM3/24/05

to

"JP" wrote:
> http://first-racing.net/index.php?/First-Racing/news/

They've rather cunningly trademarked the Euro symbol too...

"Working with us at FIRST-Racing.net are former Papyrus engineers and
production staff who collectively have over 50 years of experience in
producing the world’s leading racing simulations for personal computers"

BClay

unread,

Mar 24, 2005, 6:36:48 PM3/24/05

to

What a nice way to alienate the sim community. When Nascar 2003 came out it
was ok to make mods, now it's not? Well I can can say for myself that
whatever their efforts are from here on in on whatever project they make
they can stuff it. As much as I hate to to say this, and I thought I never
would, I'll give my money freely to EA. I'd rather support a game that can
be freely modded than to support some company that would rather take the
community to court. We take our sim racing seriously as well but we also can
put our MONEY where we want. I sure hope that the modding community can turn
EA's Nascar Simracing into one helluva racing game.

BClay

"JP" <j...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hgH0e.1790$uC2....@eagle.america.net...
> http://first-racing.net/index.php?/First-Racing/news/
>
>

JP

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Mar 24, 2005, 7:15:47 PM3/24/05

to

"Tony Rickard" <tony.ri...@spamblueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:aPH0e.4896$Ab....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

Exactly. Why publicize it ? Word of mouth would work just fine,
deterance-wise.

>
>

flightle...@gmail.com

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Mar 24, 2005, 7:21:09 PM3/24/05

to

Haha burn McArthur.

jwilson54

unread,

Mar 24, 2005, 7:32:51 PM3/24/05

to

The other side of the story here
http://www.tmcarthur.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52

Tony Rickard wrote:
> "JP" wrote:
>
>>http://first-racing.net/index.php?/First-Racing/news/
>
>
> They've rather cunningly trademarked the Euro symbol too...
>
> "Working with us at FIRST-Racing.net are former Papyrus engineers and
> production staff who collectively have over 50 years of experience in

> producing the worldâ€™s leading racing simulations for personal computers"
>
>

Dave Henrie

unread,

Mar 24, 2005, 8:50:38 PM3/24/05

to

flightle...@gmail.com wrote in news:1111710069.337222.44580
@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

> Haha burn McArthur.
>

Goodbye flightless...welcome to my killfile...
<plonk>

Dave Henrie

flightle...@gmail.com

unread,

Mar 24, 2005, 8:55:30 PM3/24/05

to

Dave Henrie wrote:

> Goodbye flightless...welcome to my killfile...
> <plonk>

Plonker.

Michael Horton

unread,

Mar 24, 2005, 9:05:35 PM3/24/05

to

Nothing wrong with making mods BClay as long as you do not alter the
N2003.exe file. The CTS, BGN, T/A, Aero88 mods do not alter the original
N2003 file. I don't know about the Sprint, OWR, and other mods as I've never
tried using them.

"BClay" <bc...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ntKdnea5s-W...@comcast.com...

Don

unread,

Mar 24, 2005, 9:39:33 PM3/24/05

to

What use is a mod that doesn't alter the physics to emulate the cars it
depicts?
Don

"Michael Horton" <mho...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:PlK0e.105983$fc4.14857@edtnps89...

Michael Horton

unread,

Mar 25, 2005, 2:58:38 AM3/25/05

to

What's wrong with the CTS, BGN, T/A, and Aero88 mods? Name me some gaming
companies that let you reverse engineer their .exe files in order to release
a new mod for them? They'll let you mod them all you want to as long as you
don't change their actual core code.

"Don" <don...@xcomxcastx.net> wrote in message
news:_dKdna1fXYl...@comcast.com...

JM

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Mar 25, 2005, 6:05:33 AM3/25/05

to

"Michael Horton" <mho...@telus.net> wrote in

news:OwP0e.73934$ZO2.50530@edtnps84:

> What's wrong with the CTS, BGN, T/A, and Aero88 mods? Name me some
> gaming companies that let you reverse engineer their .exe files in
> order to release a new mod for them? They'll let you mod them all you
> want to as long as you don't change their actual core code.
>

Technically I wouldn't call them mods at all. They were implemented by
papyrus people after all.

The only issue people can't seem to graps is that some values are stored in
a binary file rather than a text "ini" file, and seem to think there's some
special protection against editing binary files.

We'll find out if FIRSTvsMcArther ever goes to court, but I (sadly) suspect
one side may well just bully the other with money and lawyers before it
gets to be heard.

cheers
John

FAnderson

unread,

Mar 25, 2005, 8:08:18 AM3/25/05

to

JM wrote:
> Technically I wouldn't call them mods at all. They were implemented by
> papyrus people after all.

I resent that remark.. I, along with TonyK and TheUSPits made the Aero88
mod. We did/do not work for Papyrus, and more specifically, had to
Reverse Engineer all of the data formats in order to create that mod
among others.

Fred

Steve Smith

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Mar 25, 2005, 8:58:28 AM3/25/05

to

And a fabulous mod it is to!

"FAnderson" <fr...@spXXdcircuit.com> wrote in message
news:avSdndm8r7r...@giganews.com...

Randy Magruder

unread,

Mar 25, 2005, 9:32:27 AM3/25/05

to

> As much as I hate to to say
> this, and I thought I never would, I'll give my money freely to EA.

Why do you hate to say it? I have to say that while I understand the
whole "they are a big corporation...let's collectively hate them for
it" mentality I often see here, I gotta say, my experiences with the
NSR team have been very positive and way more open to the community
than Papyrus used to be.

> I'd rather support a game that can be freely modded than to support
> some company that would rather take the community to court. We take
> our sim racing seriously as well but we also can put our MONEY where
> we want. I sure hope that the modding community can turn EA's Nascar
> Simracing into one helluva racing game.

I think it already has the core to be a helluva racing game, as you put
it, it just needs some bug-fixing, esp with the rules.

Randy

Randy Magruder

unread,

Mar 25, 2005, 9:34:06 AM3/25/05

to

Hm, are you sure of that link? Looks like it leads to a 'search engine'

jwilson54 wrote:

> The other side of the story here
> http://www.tmcarthur.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52
>
> Tony Rickard wrote:
> > "JP" wrote:
> >
> > > http://first-racing.net/index.php?/First-Racing/news/
> >
> >
> > They've rather cunningly trademarked the Euro symbol too...
> >
> > "Working with us at FIRST-Racing.net are former Papyrus engineers
> > and production staff who collectively have over 50 years of

> > experience in producing the world’s leading racing simulations
> > for personal computers"
> >
> >

DodgeBullet40

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Mar 25, 2005, 9:51:37 AM3/25/05

to

From what I've been reading the core is very similar to the last Nascar
Thunder and it needs a lot more than "some" bug fixing.

"Randy Magruder" <rmag...@tampadsl.net> wrote in message
news:oKSdnROoLa9...@tampabaydsl.com...

Steve Smith

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Mar 25, 2005, 10:02:15 AM3/25/05

to

Make that two.

<flightle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1111715730.0...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

John DiFool

unread,

Mar 25, 2005, 11:02:23 AM3/25/05

to

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:34:06 -0600, "Randy Magruder"
<rmag...@tampadsl.net> wrote:

>Hm, are you sure of that link? Looks like it leads to a 'search engine'
>
>jwilson54 wrote:
>
>> The other side of the story here
>> http://www.tmcarthur.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52
>>

Yeah either the site was hacked, or Tim deliberately took it down.
It's the kind of phony home page you typically see when a
cybersquatter has stolen someone's URL...

John DiFool

Tony Rickard

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Mar 25, 2005, 11:50:42 AM3/25/05

to

"John DiFool" wrote:

All seems to be still working here..

Jeff Haas

unread,

Mar 25, 2005, 1:39:42 PM3/25/05

to

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:32:27 -0600, "Randy Magruder"
<rmag...@tampadsl.net> wrote:

>
>Why do you hate to say it? I have to say that while I understand the
>whole "they are a big corporation...let's collectively hate them for
>it" mentality I often see here, I gotta say, my experiences with the
>NSR team have been very positive and way more open to the community
>than Papyrus used to be.
>
>

>I think it already has the core to be a helluva racing game, as you put
>it, it just needs some bug-fixing, esp with the rules.
>
>Randy

The issue I have is with companies buying up the exclusive rights to a
particular sport, activity. etc. It cannot be good in the long run.
What do we have now for F1 sims since Sony bought it up? Nothing for
the PC. I will not support or purchase anything from EA. It also
helps that I can't stand nascar and everything about it.

Jeff

JP

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Mar 25, 2005, 1:42:35 PM3/25/05

to

"Jeff Haas" <j.l.ha...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:pgm84119p1tbeief9...@4ax.com...

Funny, why weren't you bitching when Papy had exclusive rights in the
early/mid nineties ? And if you're not interested in a Nascar sim, why do
you care who holds the license ?

flightle...@gmail.com

unread,

Mar 25, 2005, 4:25:57 PM3/25/05

to

Steve Smith wrote:

> Make that two.

Plonkers.

ZZ

unread,

Mar 25, 2005, 4:39:41 PM3/25/05

to

Steve Smith wrote:

>> Make that two.

-----------------
Plonk!

Three

--
Richard "ZZ" Busch

http://gplrank.schuerkamp.de/gtrank_banners/14884.gif

Member:
Screamers Racing League
oAo
AoA
MARA GTR
GT Rank +36.233
NGT Rank +41.093
GT Rank Monster +1214.979
GPL Rank + 14.768
MoGPL Rank + 308.654
N2003 Rank -18.8060
----------------
Remember racecar is racecar spelled backward
-----------------

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

flightle...@gmail.com

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Mar 25, 2005, 7:15:57 PM3/25/05

to

ZZ wrote:

> Three

Next!

Jan Verschueren

unread,

Mar 25, 2005, 7:48:49 PM3/25/05

to

<flightle...@gmail.com> wrote...
> Next!

unread,

Mar 26, 2005, 12:17:53 PM3/26/05

to

I can vouchsafe eveything Randy sez is true. The NSR team didn't push the
product out the door and go on vacation (or to work on the PSP port),
they've been working steadily and diligently on the product ever since.
They are solving probs and they will get it right and in the end hardcore
sim players will reap the benefits.

"Randy Magruder" <rmag...@tampadsl.net> wrote in message

news:Xb-dnb-97cT...@tampabaydsl.com...

unread,

Mar 26, 2005, 3:04:28 PM3/26/05

to

DodgeBullet40 wrote:

> I do not own this game...I decided to wait and see if EA could really
> pull this off. It appears to me...based on what I'm hearing...that
> they haven't. I'm not against EA....if they put out a good sim I
> would buy it. I have all their F1 games and enjoyed them despite the
> awful multiplayer code.

No argument about the multiplayer code. Eeek.

> I'm condemning the game because out of the box its a turd based on
> what I'm hearing.

By the harsh definition of 'turd' that you are applying to NSR, some of
Papyrus' first releases were turds too. Without lots of fixes for
rules and multiplayer bugs, combined with lots of modding from the
community, where would those sims be? (And I do know of what I speak
here -- you'll see me listed in the beta credits for N2, so I remember
the kinds of issues they decided to ship with and deal with later).
I'm not saying this to condemn Papy at all. I'm just saying that I
grow rather weary of the two extremes being the only ones used: It
either is better than Papy or it's a turd, to use your lingo.

> How many leagues are running it right now?

Dunno. I doubt any are. And deservedly so. The problems with the
implementation of flags are very well known, and I mentioned them in my
review as well. But as I said in that review, if your physics engine
is utterly and completely busted, you can't patch that. I don't think
anyone believes that the Thunder 2004 code base could easily be patched
into being the full blown sim everyone wants. But many people have
been pleasantly surprised by the physics and feel of NSR. There are
debates about whether they went too far with being able to drive a
loose car. Maybe they used Ryan Newman's feedback a little TOO heavily
as representative of most of the drivers. There's no doubt Newman is a
demon on a qualifying lap, and maybe his preferences are overly
influencing the behavior of the cars. That's a whole different
discussion. Point is, the rules implementation is the #1 item killing
league play with NSR right now, and the guys on the NSR team are, as I
mentioned, putting in ridiculous hours right now testing and fixing
every 'non-starter' issue that's hurting league play.

As for multiplayer - good and bad. The bad is that large fields still
are hard to run. I've been in test races with around 12 people and I
thought it was tolerable. The good, however, is really good, and that
is you can actually rub or tap someone without necessarily causing a
loss of control, and that is IMPORTANT, especially given the unpleasant
reality of internet latency. The online racing is way more fun door to
door with NSR than it was in my Papy NR2003 races online, but I do
agree there is still some multiplayer work to do for larger fields. I
also know that it's hard to get tons of people to show up on every
league night, and that a league can be broken up into < 12 drivers in
any one race. This is one of those things that will vary from league
to leave. If a league insists upon silky smooth multiplayer with 20+
drivers online, NSR is probably not there yet.

> I'm not saying it can't be a good sim...obviously EA has the
resources to create the best sim ever...if they want to spend the $$$
to do it. But this game as released is going to need a ton of work
before it becomes as good as advertised.

Well, I don't know about $$$, all I can attest to is time, and based
upon my experience with the team at Tiburon, there are many unhappy
spouses and children due to the all nighters they are pulling to whip
this thing into shape for league play. As for whether it needs a 'ton
of work', I think it's more like the old software engineering adage
that the last 20% of the work takes 80% of the time.

> The multiplayer is the same as every EA racing sim...brutal.

The experience is fun...the rules are being fixed. I wouldn't go so
far as to say 'brutal', but definitely frustrating sometimes yes.

> The gameplay issues with the black flag
> bugs, controller issues, unlocked rear ends and other things have
> most people's attention but what about the physics? When people
> start turning their attention to that are we going to find some holes
> in the physics model that will require more patching? If they let an
> unlocked rear end slip thru I don't have a lot of confidence.

I'm not convinced the unlocked rear end is the big deal people are
making it out to be. I'm open to be convinced, though.

> Being
> able to enter races with edited files...having to edit files instead
> of having menu options...the list of fixes goes on. Is EA going to
> spend the $$$ to fix all this? I'm not going to spend my $$$ until
> they do...

Actually you said you hated all things NASCAR, so I don't think they
are getting your $$$ anyway, right?

>
> Auto Sim Sport gave it a pretty good review...I think they scored it
> a 90% despite stating concerns over the multiplayer and EA's track
> record with patches. I would have scored it an incomplete...the game
> isn't playable as a sim without a patch and there's not much point in
> having a good sim if the multiplayer is lacking.

Again, I disagree. I have way more fun with the AI in this game than
the AI in Papy's games. It's actually fun single player for me. The
pack racing is just superior.

> Keep in mind...I
> haven't played the game...so if I'm wrong tell me...I'd like to be
> wrong.

It's not so much that you're wrong as much as I think you're
overstating the problem, zeroing in on a couple of areas and saying the
whole product just sucks because of it. That's your opinion, of
course, but by your lofty standards, I can't think of a sim I'd ever
buy if I had to apply that bar to each sim, at least not as initially
shipped as a 1.0 product. I wonder if it's not that NSR is flawed, but
that it's flawed AND it's from EA, and peoples' natural hatred for all
things EA is making their criticism more harsh than it would be
otherwise.

Randy

Randy Magruder

unread,

Mar 26, 2005, 3:12:36 PM3/26/05

to

DodgeBullet40 wrote:

> A blog would be nice...for the people who already bought the game and
> those who would like to. With EA's track record with patches I think
> it would have a positive effect. I'd buy NSR right now if I knew EA
> was committed to getting it right...

I think guys like James Hawkins would write a blog if he wasn't trying
to put out 15 fires at once all the time. Look, I've been doing
testing awhile now, and the team at Tiburon is working as if they still
hadn't shipped the product yet. I'm seeing definite improvement. Not
all issues are going to be addressed in the first update. They are
trying to prioritize issues, and the TOP issues in the game right now
concern the handling of penalties, flags and cautions, because these
are really hurting the game when it comes to league adoption. Because
of this, there has been a lot of torture testing and long hours
scrutinizing replays to get a handle on how to reproduce and fix these
complex on-track situations that can occur.

I'm not one to tell you how to spend your money. The only thing I will
tell you is that I've been up working with them way late at night
trying to pin down elusive problems and been there the next day when
they are eager for testing to see if they've gotten it fixed properly.
You want to know if EA is committed to getting it right? I hate to use
the term "EA" because I think of the corporate suits in Redwood City
when someone says EA, and not knowing THOSE guys, I NEVER want to guess
what they are and are not committed to. I WILL say the NSR team at
Tiburon is committed to getting it right, and as I mentioned earlier,
my guess is there are some unhappy Tiburon spouses right now...that's
just how hard they are working to get these things ironed out.

Please realize that the whole naming of the thing "NASCAR SimRacing"
was NOT an element of marketing hype. That's what they were going for,
and that's what they are committed to, and this is the first year I
really, really see that level of commitment to realism. Doesn't mean
they won't make mistakes, and it doesn't mean we won't have to wait for
some bug fixes....but I'm saying that the commitment is as much or more
there than I've ever seen in a game company before.

Randy

John DiFool

unread,

Mar 26, 2005, 3:12:37 PM3/26/05

to

How about "brainlessvacuum"?

Michael Horton

unread,

Mar 26, 2005, 8:06:12 PM3/26/05

to

"Randy Magruder" <rmag...@tampadsl.net> wrote in message

news:4q6dnX00B-z...@tampabaydsl.com...

> DodgeBullet40 wrote:
>
> By the harsh definition of 'turd' that you are applying to NSR, some of
> Papyrus' first releases were turds too. Without lots of fixes for
> rules and multiplayer bugs, combined with lots of modding from the
> community, where would those sims be? (And I do know of what I speak
> here -- you'll see me listed in the beta credits for N2, so I remember
> the kinds of issues they decided to ship with and deal with later).
> I'm not saying this to condemn Papy at all. I'm just saying that I
> grow rather weary of the two extremes being the only ones used: It
> either is better than Papy or it's a turd, to use your lingo.
>

> Randy

Snipped a lot of the other stuff because this is the only part I felt
compelled to reply to.

Randy, this isn't EA's first run at a NASCAR sim or even their second.
They've been at this since Revulsion back in 98 or 99. They've released a
number of Blunder versions that NSR is based on.

Mike Horton
Gentleman's Motor Sport Society Admin
http://www.gmss.org

JM

unread,

Mar 26, 2005, 9:26:36 PM3/26/05

to

FAnderson <fr...@spXXdcircuit.com> wrote in news:avSdndm8r7rckNnfRVn-
j...@giganews.com:

It uses the CTS physics does it not?
Busch, CTS, Trans Am- these are the specific "mods" I was under the
impression were being discussed (being edits of the exe files).
The Aero88 mod is great, I don't know where you got the impression I was
making any resentful remarks about it.

cheers
John

Michael Horton

unread,

Mar 26, 2005, 11:27:56 PM3/26/05

to

Busch, CTS, and TransAm (and Aero88) are not edits of the exe. They use
properties that were already part of the .exe.

"JM" <trou...@plus.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96262...@212.159.2.85...

Steve Smith

unread,

Mar 27, 2005, 9:00:49 AM3/27/05

to

Mitch,

Ya gotta realize that, despite the apparent diversity (number of titles),
the sim-racing world is basically down to two camps/groups/poles.

On the one hand, you've got yer EA/Tiburon/ISI/SimBin faction. On the
other: Papy/FIRST/Redline/Wildfire/et alia. The latter is tightly
controlled by a secretive cabal in Boston, and can only be/get as good as
Darth Vader (DK, now that he's gone over to the Dark Side) wants it to be.
These guys have a clear lead in multiplayer expertise and useability.
They're behind in terms of the physics model...at least for now.

On the other hand, you've got yer noisy, fractious Rebel group, basically
all working off the old ISI physics model (yay!) and Net code (boo!). This
group represents a broad spectrum of abilities and interests. EA has more
clout than anybody in the gaming universe, but lacks focus and committment
(to anything but making money and amassing even more power).

The former is unbalanced (that is to say, top heavy) and, ah, distributed
(scattered), with an out-of-touch EA sitting on the throne, and the small
players falling all over each other. They all lack civility, much less a
gentlemen's agreement. Look thru the microscope at one small issue: the
small players who are making add-ons for GTR can't even agree on naming
conventions: there are four or five different versions of Imola with the
same name. Ditto for Road America. Chaos reigns.

Prognosis: if FIRST prevails (by shutting down competitors--like the MPAA
and RIAA are attempting to do--thru the court system, rather than thru
putting out a better product--the way Apple is doing--and letting the market
decide), we will be at the mercy of their whims.

If EA, and their Almighty Dollars prevail, we will have freedom...and
lawlessness. And a need for a Judge Dredd.

I report. You decide.

--Yoda I Am

"Mitch_A" <na...@nospam.pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:0nh1e.2910$zl....@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...

Tony Rickard

unread,

Mar 27, 2005, 9:21:52 AM3/27/05

to

"Steve Smith" wrote:

> Ya gotta realize that, despite the apparent diversity (number of titles),
> the sim-racing world is basically down to two camps/groups/poles.
>
> On the one hand, you've got yer EA/Tiburon/ISI/SimBin faction. On the
> other: Papy/FIRST/Redline/Wildfire/et alia. The latter is tightly
> controlled by a secretive cabal in Boston, and can only be/get as good as
> Darth Vader (DK, now that he's gone over to the Dark Side) wants it to be.
> These guys have a clear lead in multiplayer expertise and useability.
> They're behind in terms of the physics model...at least for now.

<snip>

Phew, thanks for clearing that one up, Steve! Problem is I am feeling a bit
of a pschitzo at the moment, long term Papy fan whose finally got the latest
GTR demo running nicely. What to do? I'm torn, torn I tell ya...

Steve Blankenship

unread,

Mar 27, 2005, 9:45:53 AM3/27/05

to

"Tony Rickard" <tony.ri...@spamblueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4kz1e.6358$Ab....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

Take my cure. Spend some quality time pounding through the woods in RBR and
you forget about all the current shouting matches. '05 is shaping up to be
the best year in a while for racing sim fans, but you'd never know it from
the current tone of things. Patience, grasshoppers... ;-)

SB

Steve Smith

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Mar 27, 2005, 10:19:03 AM3/27/05

to

Me too.

"Tony Rickard" <tony.ri...@spamblueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4kz1e.6358$Ab....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

Randy Magruder

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Mar 27, 2005, 11:01:08 AM3/27/05

to

Michael Horton wrote:

> Randy, this isn't EA's first run at a NASCAR sim or even their
> second. They've been at this since Revulsion back in 98 or 99.

THIS you are right about. But there has been a distinct change in
philosophy. Previously those games were going hand in hand with the
more arcade like console titles, right down to the name "Thunder". It
was the whole "make one game for all platforms" philosophy.

THAT has changed. A serious re-examination of the PC Sim market
happened there, and changes were made from personnel (bringing in
ex-Papyrus guys for example), the name of the product, the focus on
hardcore sim development, the extra months spent developing it, etc.
At the risk of using the old cliche, the people at EA who were in
charge of the PC version "found religion". A few of them already had
it, but now they actually have the power to make design decisions.

> They've released a number of Blunder versions that NSR is based on.

There is definitely still code in there from previous versions. But
that doesn't discredit the entire sim. Does the shell user API used in
previous releases make the game a sim or not a sim? No. There is an
internal framework upon which the engine of the game is built, but if
you keep the framework, but re-write the guts of the physics, it's
still a different physics engine. You throw out what's bad and keep
what's good. You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.

Randy

Randy Magruder

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Mar 27, 2005, 11:07:50 AM3/27/05

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>> EA has more clout than anybody in the gaming universe, but lacks
focus and committment (to anything but making money and amassing even
more power).

It is indeed EA Corporate that I worry about, not the development team
at Tiburon working on NSR. As long as EA lets them and the community
is buying their product, NSR should get better and better. If EA
Corporate makes any kind of mandate from on-high to change course with
PC versions of NASCAR back to a more NASCAR Thunder console variety,
we're screwed.

Right now, it looks like the guys at Tiburon are being allowed to call
the shots, and being of the hardcore sim persuasion, that's what they
are busting their butts trying to give us. I *am* guilty of hoping
they are successful, and one of the main reasons is that I would like
to see hardcore sims get more respect and be more successful from big
publishers, rather than have the genre be confined to small independent
niches who could close their doors and go out of business at any point.

Of course, I'm also rooting big time for the simbin folks (wish they'd
ship GTR here already so I don't have to pay to import it). I just
think it would be awesome if a company with EAs licensing, clout and
resources were making a hardcore NASCAR sim SUCCESSFUL.

Randy

Goy Larsen

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Mar 27, 2005, 11:15:17 AM3/27/05

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So what you're saying is that you're a splitter ?

Wait for rFactor to be released and have it all

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
"goyl at nettx dot no"

http://www.theuspits.com

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--

Tony Rickard

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Mar 27, 2005, 11:30:49 AM3/27/05

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"Goy Larsen" wrote:

> So what you're saying is that you're a splitter ?

No the splitters gone. The guy in the pits told me so.

:)
Tony

Don

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Mar 27, 2005, 12:07:36 PM3/27/05

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(snip)

> Wait for rFactor to be released and have it all

Does rFactor have more "feel" to it? I have a good feel for the cars in Papy
games but I can't tell what the cars are doing in the Isi based mods. I was
looking forward to the V8 supercar mod for N2K3 but thanks to First that
won't be happening. I can't make a lap without spinning in the mod for F1C
unless I turn a lot of aides on.

Don

Uwe Schürkamp

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Mar 27, 2005, 1:33:56 PM3/27/05

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On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 09:45:53 -0500, Steve Blankenship wrote:
> Take my cure. Spend some quality time pounding through the woods in RBR and
> you forget about all the current shouting matches. '05 is shaping up to be
> the best year in a while for racing sim fans, but you'd never know it from
> the current tone of things. Patience, grasshoppers... ;-)

Exactly, Steve. Remember the doom and gloom we had on this group in
2003 and early 2004? Now, it looks really nice and once FIRST have
found their new identity within the simracing world and stop sueing
every one and his mother, the future certainly looks brighter than
ever before.

Lots of good sims here already, with more on the horizon like LFS S2,
GTR 2004, rFactor (that's going to be a cracker!), you name it. Who
knows, even Racing Legends might see the light of day if we're not
careful!

Back to the doom and gloom now, plase ;-)

uwe

--
GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Uwe Schürkamp

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Mar 27, 2005, 1:30:59 PM3/27/05

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On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:21:52 GMT, Tony Rickard wrote:
> Phew, thanks for clearing that one up, Steve! Problem is I am feeling a bit
> of a pschitzo at the moment, long term Papy fan whose finally got the latest
> GTR demo running nicely. What to do? I'm torn, torn I tell ya...

I am in the same situation, I bought GTR when it came out last
November here in Germany. Let me give you a hint: Enjoy them both!

- Fire up GTP mod for a nice online session when GTR MP bites you
again

- Fire up GTR if you're in dire need of a little adrenaline rush

- Fire up GPL for the good times sake and to put that certain smile on
your face, blasting that Brabham around St. Jovite.

HTH ;)

Cheers,

Michael Horton

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Mar 27, 2005, 2:53:04 PM3/27/05

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Randy Magruder wrote:

> There is definitely still code in there from previous versions. But
> that doesn't discredit the entire sim. Does the shell user API used in
> previous releases make the game a sim or not a sim? No. There is an
> internal framework upon which the engine of the game is built, but if
> you keep the framework, but re-write the guts of the physics, it's
> still a different physics engine. You throw out what's bad and keep
> what's good. You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.

Granted, I don't know what's gone on behind the scenes and I'll readily
admit that I haven't loaded up the game since the demo. I do have it but
haven't gone to the trouble of loading it after reading all the problems
with multiplayer. I've been disappointed so many times by EA that I'm
holding off in the hopes that the patch will turn things around and I'll
actually be excited when I finally load it.

As a programmer I've re-used code a number of times so there's no argument
from me about using what works and what doesn't. I guess I was looking at it
more from a standpoint that the Thunder versions were so flawed that it
would've been better to start from scratch rather than trying to fix it.

Randy Magruder

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Mar 27, 2005, 3:41:45 PM3/27/05

to

Michael Horton wrote:

> Granted, I don't know what's gone on behind the scenes and I'll
> readily admit that I haven't loaded up the game since the demo. I do
> have it but haven't gone to the trouble of loading it after reading
> all the problems with multiplayer. I've been disappointed so many
> times by EA that I'm holding off in the hopes that the patch will
> turn things around and I'll actually be excited when I finally load
> it.

Well, you know the joke about Satan and the Demo, right?

> As a programmer I've re-used code a number of times so there's no
> argument from me about using what works and what doesn't. I guess I
> was looking at it more from a standpoint that the Thunder versions
> were so flawed that it would've been better to start from scratch
> rather than trying to fix it.

I'm a commercial software developer myself. There's framework, then
there's underlying algorithm. My understanding is that the framework
cannot be blamed for underlying problems in previous versions. If they
can rip out the physics and replace the model while leaving the
framework in placae, more power to 'em.

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Mar 30, 2005, 2:26:52 PM3/30/05

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"Randy Magruder wrote"

> By the harsh definition of 'turd' that you are applying to NSR, some of
> Papyrus' first releases were turds too. Without lots of fixes for
> rules and multiplayer bugs, combined with lots of modding from the
> community, where would those sims be? (And I do know of what I speak
> here -- you'll see me listed in the beta credits for N2, so I remember
> the kinds of issues they decided to ship with and deal with later).
> I'm not saying this to condemn Papy at all. I'm just saying that I
> grow rather weary of the two extremes being the only ones used: It
> either is better than Papy or it's a turd, to use your lingo.

I have every Papyrus sim and I don't remember any of them being close to the
state that NSR is when they were released. I've been around since the first
Indycar and raced on Hawaii the day it went public so I like to think I know
where I'm coming from too. I think its hard to compare NSR to games that
came out almost 10 years ago. Papyrus was breaking a lot of new ground back
then. NSR wasn't breaking any new ground...they were just trying to make
something better than NR2003 which so far they haven't done. Its kind of
like GM rolling out an '88 IROC today and introducing it as a new car to
compete with the Mustang.

> As for multiplayer - good and bad. The bad is that large fields still
> are hard to run. I've been in test races with around 12 people and I
> thought it was tolerable. The good, however, is really good, and that
> is you can actually rub or tap someone without necessarily causing a
> loss of control, and that is IMPORTANT, especially given the unpleasant
> reality of internet latency. The online racing is way more fun door to
> door with NSR than it was in my Papy NR2003 races online, but I do
> agree there is still some multiplayer work to do for larger fields. I
> also know that it's hard to get tons of people to show up on every
> league night, and that a league can be broken up into < 12 drivers in
> any one race. This is one of those things that will vary from league
> to leave. If a league insists upon silky smooth multiplayer with 20+
> drivers online, NSR is probably not there yet.

I think that's a huge problem. I run in leagues where 20+ drivers is common
so what motivation is there for them to switch? One of my leagues was
seriously thinking of making the switch but of course they discovered there
was no way when the game was released. Here's how it worked in that
league...4 or 5 guys bought the game...tried it...then destroyed it in the
forum which pretty much kept anyone else from buying it. One of them
couldn't get his controller to work (it worked fine in all the Papyrus sims)
and EA told him to send him the opened box and they'd send him a sealed copy
to take to Staple's. What a ridiculous policy. They should have hired the
Papyrus guy that wrote the controller code...lol. Does NSR support ECCI's?
I'm sure it doesn't say it on the box...I think they only mentioned 2 wheels
and a gamepad or something.

> Well, I don't know about $$$, all I can attest to is time, and based
> upon my experience with the team at Tiburon, there are many unhappy
> spouses and children due to the all nighters they are pulling to whip
> this thing into shape for league play. As for whether it needs a 'ton
> of work', I think it's more like the old software engineering adage
> that the last 20% of the work takes 80% of the time.

The whole thing sounds like a classic rush job. I think they did themselves
a lot of harm here because the word of mouth has been so bad. The lack of
communication has been a poor choice too. People were suspicious of EA
after the Thunder debacles and this experience has only confirmed their
suspicions unfortunately. A few sentences a week on a website or a blog
about the patch would go a loooong way with the people who already bought
the game.

> The experience is fun...the rules are being fixed. I wouldn't go so
> far as to say 'brutal', but definitely frustrating sometimes yes.

I was talking about the code. If it can't handle 30+ people then I just
don't understand what they were thinking. The better leagues out there see
fields of around 30 cars and if they were planning on expanding the
community then those kind of fields would become the norm. I would imagine
the rules could be fixed rather easily...

> I'm not convinced the unlocked rear end is the big deal people are
> making it out to be. I'm open to be convinced, though.

I'm hearing a lot of people are editing files to lock the rear-end like they
are in real life. It seems there's a "dirt track" effect that lets you
loosen up the car and slide thru the turns giving an advantage over the
people who locked up their rear-ends by editing a file. I was surprised
this made it thru since it seemed a simple thing to find. I'm sure it will
be fixed in the patch but my concern is if this made it thru what will
people discover when they really get into the physics and start creating
setups.

> Actually you said you hated all things NASCAR, so I don't think they
> are getting your $$$ anyway, right?

Actually I don't hate NASCAR...I get tickets to Michigan, Brickyard, and
Bristol...plus DodgeBullet40 would be an odd choice for a handle...lol. I
own every Papyrus sim ever produced...but I also own a lot that were made by
other companies. I have Nascar Heat and thought it had potential. I see a
lot of similarities between Heat and NSR actually. It doesn't matter who
makes it...I'll buy it if I think it will be any good.

> Again, I disagree. I have way more fun with the AI in this game than
> the AI in Papy's games. It's actually fun single player for me. The
> pack racing is just superior.

That's a positive. I like to race against the AI when I'm practicing for
league races. However...with broadband now the norm league racing is where
its at and if EA wants to build the community...and they'll have to if they
want to make any money...they need to get the multi-player code worked out.
43 on a LAN is nice but LikeReal aren't even doing LAN's anymore
unfortunately. :(

> It's not so much that you're wrong as much as I think you're
> overstating the problem, zeroing in on a couple of areas and saying the
> whole product just sucks because of it. That's your opinion, of
> course, but by your lofty standards, I can't think of a sim I'd ever
> buy if I had to apply that bar to each sim, at least not as initially
> shipped as a 1.0 product. I wonder if it's not that NSR is flawed, but
> that it's flawed AND it's from EA, and peoples' natural hatred for all
> things EA is making their criticism more harsh than it would be
> otherwise.

Remember that line from "Top Gun" where the bald guy tells Maverick "Your
name isn't the best around here. You need to do it better than the other
guy."? That's the position EA was in...with their reputation they were
starting in a negative position and then they released something that wasn't
close. If it was like NR2003 where people could still run in leagues and
the game could at least be used that would have been ok if the game excelled
in other areas. Unfortunately it seems like most people put it on a shelf
until the patch comes out. The thing that's really sad...the people that
have it now paid $40 for a broken game...by the time the patch comes out the
price will be down to $29. By the time the second patch comes out I'll be
able to buy it in a bargain bin for $10. :) Do you have any information on
how the game is selling? My fear...if its flopping...is they'll blame it on
the community instead of pointing the finger at themselves for releasing a
game that wasn't close to what they were promoting. You have to
admit...they promoted this thing like it was the best thing ever made...

Bill Bollinger

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Mar 30, 2005, 7:12:54 PM3/30/05

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NSR can EASILY handle 30+ racers. That is not even an issue. Other issues
like race control and a bad dedicated server system is what keeps it from
being REALLY good online. However, do not think that it cannot smoothly run
30+ racers. It can very easily.

Bill Bollinger
www.gsxn.com

"DodgeBullet40" <dodge...@nospam.net> wrote in message

news:04D2e.17403$Go4.12631@trnddc05...

Jan Verschueren

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Mar 30, 2005, 7:35:58 PM3/30/05

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"Bill Bollinger" wrote...

> NSR can EASILY handle 30+ racers. That is not even an issue.
> Other issues like race control and a bad dedicated server
> system is what keeps it from being REALLY good online.
> However, do not think that it cannot smoothly run 30+ racers.
> It can very easily.

Sure, but also those 30 racers must have very stable, low ping connections
and the bandwidth requirement is higher.

Jan.
=---

Randy Magruder

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Mar 31, 2005, 5:18:05 PM3/31/05

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Forget playing games, you should be in a good anger management course
if you're going to get this angry and insulting.

Randy

Bill Bollinger

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Mar 31, 2005, 7:09:01 PM3/31/05

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NSR handles variable ping(s) better than N2003 and the bandwidth requirement
is not that high. Higher than N2003, but not higher than most good online
games. NSR's online code at its heart is very good, unfortunately right now
the other stuff and even some multiplayer bugs are keeping it from being
extremely good.

Bill Bollinger
www.gsxn.com

"Jan Verschueren" <jan.vers...@SPAMpandora.be> wrote in message
news:OBH2e.51160$UM4.4...@phobos.telenet-ops.be...

Rusty Unger

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Apr 4, 2005, 8:40:22 PM4/4/05

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This is so simple....why hasn't anyone else figured it out. When we
purchased the game we signed an end licsenced agreement with Papyrus,
not with First-Racing...this will never hold up in court, as First
Racing is not the original publisher of the game. Yes, they may have
bought the source code, but the agreement signed on install was not
with them....it was with papyrus and sierra.....they have no leg to
stand on.
>

Byron Forbes

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Apr 5, 2005, 2:21:31 AM4/5/05

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"Rusty Unger" <rng...@sccoast.net> wrote in message
news:1gn35116qs47oigr0...@4ax.com...

Dunno about legs, but FIRST has some serious financial backing.

Luckily though, U.S. judges can't be bought! Fwhew.

Michael Horton

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Apr 5, 2005, 10:00:09 PM4/5/05

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And why is it so hard for you to understand that all those license
agreements that you signed with Vivendi/Sierra/Papyrus were transfered to
FIRST when they bought everything?

"Rusty Unger" <rng...@sccoast.net> wrote in message
news:1gn35116qs47oigr0...@4ax.com...