Jeff Krosnoff at Toronto
William Dahms
did Krosnoff die at the no. 8 corner?
how did his car get off the ground?
Does anybody else here question the saftey of turn 8 at toronto? way to
tight, with hairpin trun going in at 175+ with short braking zone (due
to high downforce setting). Whats more, you can't see what is going on
untill the last minute because trun 7 is high speed and blocks the view
of 8.
That corner needs a serious design overhall IMO. I don't want to see a
second death this year
Tom J. Mak
Raceman
I can't remember the corner # although it is the first corner coming off
the backstretch and I had seats along there. It was a horrible thing and I
will NOT ever be proud to say that I was at a race where a driver and/or a
track worker lost their lives! His car got off the ground because he touched
wheels with another car I can't remember for sure. I don't beleive it had
anything to do with the configuration of the corner because it wouldn't have
happened if the wheels hadn't touched. Although I do not beleive this to be
the problem they have reconfigured that corner for this years race. I will
be attending this years race once again and I myself will be praying that an
incident like this will not happen again!
Alex
Raceman on EFNet
Neil Yeatman
William Dahms wrote:
>
> did Krosnoff die at the no. 8 corner?
No...he was on the straight on Lakeshore Boulevard, near the mid point. If
anything he was approaching Turn 3. Turn 8 is a 90 degree right hander
which doesn't see a lot of accidents other than a little bumping.
> how did his car get off the ground?
A great deal of debate can go on as to exactly how it happened, but
my take on it is that he was tapped by Stefan Johannsen (sp?) while doing
about 170 mph. His car lifted and turned into the catch fence on the north
side of the track. A concrete pole and a tree were involved in slowing
him down very suddenly, and his head may have hit one of them.
> Does anybody else here question the saftey of turn 8 at toronto? way to
> tight, with hairpin trun going in at 175+ with short braking zone (due
> to high downforce setting). Whats more, you can't see what is going on
> untill the last minute because trun 7 is high speed and blocks the view
> of 8.
> That corner needs a serious design overhall IMO. I don't want to see a
> second death this year
Well, the closest thing to a hairpin at Toronto is Turn 3, and I understand
that the approach to the turn, or at least emergency access to the area
has been changed (improved?) somewhat. I can tell you on Friday after I
see the track.
The biggest problem here is that they keep the racing on one side of the
six-lane Lakeshore Blvd. It would be much better if they could run it
down the centre of the six lanes, thus keeping things like trees and
utility poles away from the track, but I think that the crown of the road
makes it impossible.
Hopefully we'll have a safe race this year.
--
Neil Yeatman
Ajax, Ontario, CANADA
My REAL email address is:
nyea...@interlog.com
ICQ# 1315725
William Dahms
did Krosnoff die at the no. 8 corner?
how did his car get off the ground?
Does anybody else here question the saftey of turn 8 at toronto? way to
Steve Vandergriff
William Dahms wrote:
>
> did Krosnoff die at the no. 8 corner?
The accident happened at the approach to turn three, just at the
underpass.
>
> how did his car get off the ground?
His wheels touched Stefan Johannsen's, sending him into an airborn spin
just before heavy braking would have been applied. The cockpit
violently struck one of the concrete underpass supports during the spin.
--
God Bless,
Steve
(remove the <remove this> from my address when
replying via e-mail)
Tom J. Mak
In article <5qe8ou$8...@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca>,
Raceman <cd...@netcom.ca> wrote:
>In article <33CA7683...@po.cwru.edu>,
> William Dahms <wx...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>
>>did Krosnoff die at the no. 8 corner?
>>
>>how did his car get off the ground?
>>
>>Does anybody else here question the saftey of turn 8 at toronto? way to
>>tight, with hairpin trun going in at 175+ with short braking zone (due
>>to high downforce setting). Whats more, you can't see what is going on
>>untill the last minute because trun 7 is high speed and blocks the view
>>of 8.
>>That corner needs a serious design overhall IMO. I don't want to see a
>>second death this year
>>
>
> I can't remember the corner # although it is the first corner coming off
>the backstretch and I had seats along there. It was a horrible thing and I
>will NOT ever be proud to say that I was at a race where a driver and/or a
>track worker lost their lives! His car got off the ground because he
touched
>wheels with another car I can't remember for sure. I don't beleive it had
>anything to do with the configuration of the corner because it wouldn't
have
>happened if the wheels hadn't touched. Although I do not beleive this to be
>the problem they have reconfigured that corner for this years race. I will
>be attending this years race once again and I myself will be praying that
an
>incident like this will not happen again!
>
>Alex
>Raceman on EFNet
They were going 3 wide.......
Mark Gill
Hi William,
In article <33CA7683...@po.cwru.edu>, William Dahms
<wx...@po.cwru.edu> writes
>did Krosnoff die at the no. 8 corner?
>
>how did his car get off the ground?
>
>Does anybody else here question the saftey of turn 8 at toronto? way to
>tight, with hairpin trun going in at 175+ with short braking zone (due
>to high downforce setting). Whats more, you can't see what is going on
>untill the last minute because trun 7 is high speed and blocks the view
>of 8.
>That corner needs a serious design overhall IMO. I don't want to see a
>second death this year
>
The accident happened at turn three, at the end of the long straight.
Krosnoff touched the right rear wheel of Stefan Johansson's car under
braking, and was launched high over the wall to the right, unfortunately
clipping marshall Gary Avrin (who also perished), somersaulting along
the debris fence before colliding with a tree. The car disintegrated on
contact.
In my view the accident was more a case of a tragic coming together
between two open-wheeled cars, whenever there is wheel contact between
open-wheeled cars, there is the chance one will become airborne. That's
what happened here. Additionally, the incident happened soon after a
full-course yellow, when a pack of cars were running together tightly
bunched.
Commentators and journalists routinely talk of crashes being 'horrific'.
Krosnoff's was one which unfortunately did merit the word.
Mark 'Damon' Gill "Only rock can save us now!"
Damon's Sim Cars: =_/]@_
http://gillcomp.demon.co.uk/damon.htm O==-O\
Mr.Excitement
I remember watching the race and remember the accident. Man, I gotta say
it was one of most gruesome accidents I've seen. I believe that when
Jeff got airborne, the fence was what got him into the spin. I remember
the front spoiler practically taking the corner worker's head off. Then
the car got severly damaged when it hit the side of the underpass. The
car came out of the underpass in many small pieces, and I couldn't make
out the drivers cockpit.
I'm just wondering if a bar around each wheel will prevent the many
accidents when tires touch on these cars. Not fenders, but bars covering
the front and back of each wheel. The rule would be that the bars would
have to be the same height on all cars. I've seen these things work on
go karts and save them from flips.
just a thought,
MARK
TrenT Castanavaras
This is a classic example of why i turn to NASCAR... I certain;y don't
wish to make light of the subject...the deaths were terrible and
unnecessary...it is so sad the way the racing community has lost such
great drivers in recent years....all in the name of speed. NASCAR racers
may not reach teh dizzying speeds of F1 or Indy cars all the time....but
put two Cup cars in that scenario..and all that happens is a small wreck
and a few bumps and bruises....
How many people have died driver a car WITH fenders in recent years...as
opposed to those without?
Keep the fenders on'em and let'em run.
TrenT
--
Driver of the #15 Cincinnati Bengals Pontiac
Track CHampionship Racing Series Admin
N2STRS
NSRA-S Division
DamN The Man!!! SAVE THE WINSTON Sponsorship!!!
CatchMeIfU.........................Can
Roy A. Beck
Steve Vandergriff <"<remove this>piston"@earthlink.net> wrote:
>William Dahms wrote:
>>
>> did Krosnoff die at the no. 8 corner?
>
>The accident happened at the approach to turn three, just at the
>underpass.
>
>>
>> how did his car get off the ground?
>
>His wheels touched Stefan Johannsen's, sending him into an airborn spin
>just before heavy braking would have been applied. The cockpit
>violently struck one of the concrete underpass supports during the spin.
>
Are you sure it was an underpass support? My memory tells me it was a
concrete or steel light pole. Not that it makes much difference,
whatever it was should not have been outside the catch fence.
Race safe all,
Roy A. Beck
rab...@pei.sympatico.ca
Earl Ma
In article <33CC00...@benden.net>, Tr...@benden.net says...
>
>
>This is a classic example of why i turn to NASCAR... I certain;y don't
>wish to make light of the subject...the deaths were terrible and
>unnecessary...it is so sad the way the racing community has lost such
>great drivers in recent years....all in the name of speed. NASCAR racers
>may not reach teh dizzying speeds of F1 or Indy cars all the time....but
>put two Cup cars in that scenario..and all that happens is a small wreck
>and a few bumps and bruises....
>
>How many people have died driver a car WITH fenders in recent years...as
>opposed to those without?
OK, off the top of my head for the last 15 years:
Winston Cup:
1984 - Terry Schoonover
1987 - Bruce Jacobi (in coma since 1983)
1989 - Grant Adcox
1990 - J.D. McDuffie
1994 - Neil Bonnett
1994 - Rodney Orr
1997 - Rick Baldwin (in coma since 1987)
Busch Grand National:
some extremely obscure driver was killed at one of the short tracks
(Hickory?) about 4 years ago.
1993 - Clifford Allison
Goody's Dash:
1995 - Russell Phillips
You might as well throw in ARCA (years approximate):
1987 - Tracy Read
1990 - Joe Young
1991 - Slick Johnson
1992 - Joe Booher
1994 - Chris Gherke
Also, Jim Robinson died about a year or so after a Winston West crash in
the late 1980's, and Butch Lindley also lingered in a coma for about 2
years after a (Slim Jim All Pro?) crash around 1987.
Compare this to the major/minor open wheel series:
CART/IndyCar:
1982 - Gordon Smiley, Jim Hickman
1992 - Jovy Marcelo
1996 - Jeff Krosnoff
IRL:
1996 - Scott Brayton
F1:
1982 - Gilles Villeneuve, Riccardo Paletti
1986 - Elio de Angelis
1994 - Roland Ratzenberger, Ayrton Senna
F3(?):
The names of Marco Campos and Paul Warwick come to mind, circa 1993-94.
Also, I'm overlooking a Japanese driver whose name eludes me (an overall
Daytona 24 Hrs. winner) killed in a Japanese F3000 crash around 1995.
In other words, fenders and closed cockpits do NOT necessarily equal more
safety!
Earl
Mat Holloway
Tom J. Mak wrote:
>
> He touched wheel to wheel with Stefan Johansson I think
>
> >
> >tight, with hairpin trun going in at 175+ with short braking zone (due
> >to high downforce setting). Whats more, you can't see what is going on
> >untill the last minute because trun 7 is high speed and blocks the view
> >of 8.
> >That corner needs a serious design overhall IMO. I don't want to see a
> >second death this year
> >
>
>
a Light Pole. When the car was in the air going along the catch fencing
near the end of the straight it hit a light pole, from memory the pole
was either in front of fencing or fencing was wrapped around the pole.
Mat.
Craig Hopkins
On Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:57:07 -0400, William Dahms <wx...@po.cwru.edu>
wrote:
>did Krosnoff die at the no. 8 corner?
>
>how did his car get off the ground?
>
>Does anybody else here question the saftey of turn 8 at toronto? way to
>tight, with hairpin trun going in at 175+ with short braking zone (due
>to high downforce setting). Whats more, you can't see what is going on
>untill the last minute because trun 7 is high speed and blocks the view
>of 8.
>That corner needs a serious design overhall IMO. I don't want to see a
>second death this year
>
Not sure if this is really rec.autos.simulators kinda subject but ...
As I remember it was approaching the braking area at the end of the
back straight. I believe Stefen Johanson moved across on Krosnoff ..
their wheels touch and K was fliipped. A bit of racing bad luck I
guess.
Cheers,
Craig
******************************************************************************
Craig Hopkins Internet: hop...@ozemail.com.au
Canberra, Australia hop...@ActOnline.com.au
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hoppy1
IVL Toys-R-Us #43 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports
Member of Christian Auto Racing Evangelism - CARE
http://www.netusa1.net/~carroll/care.htm
******************************************************************************
TOlson9466
>Oh..is it just me..or is IRL race dangerous to the head??
>Damn..what...ten..15 head injuries..hmmmmmm
No, it is not just you. I don't really keep up with the IRL, but I think
someone got hurt and ended up in the hospital at every race. Not
something that I can say about any other series..
Justin Koval
They were three wide..the guy in the middle did not see Krosnoff, pulled
down onto him..wheels touched, other side touchewd the wall, and he took
off like a plane..sailed head long into catch fence, I think killing him
instantly....Pretty bad wreck, and I have not watched to many indy Car
races since then...
Oh..is it just me..or is IRL race dangerous to the head??
Damn..what...ten..15 head injuries..hmmmmmm
Justin
Hideki Uematsu
Earl Ma wrote:
> Also, I'm overlooking a Japanese driver whose name eludes me (an overall
> Daytona 24 Hrs. winner) killed in a Japanese F3000 crash around 1995.
His name is Hitoshi Ogawa.He won Proto Type Car Race at Monza.
The Japanese driver who won Daytona 24Hrs. is Toshio Suzuki.
Hideki Uematsu
JShell8634
It was a tree. I have it on tape. This is also a reason that they laid a
memorial at that tree. They'll probably talk about it at the race this
weekend.
Craig Hopkins
>
>
>How many people have died driver a car WITH fenders in recent years...as
>opposed to those without?
>
In the last two years I can think of two. Nemacheck (sp) in a super
truck and someone in a race in 1996 in a Busch race.
Mark Gill
In article <33CC29...@worldnet.att.net>, "Mr.Excitement"
<Suff...@worldnet.att.net> writes
-snip-
>I'm just wondering if a bar around each wheel will prevent the many
>accidents when tires touch on these cars. Not fenders, but bars covering
>the front and back of each wheel. The rule would be that the bars would
>have to be the same height on all cars. I've seen these things work on
>go karts and save them from flips.
>
>just a thought,
>
>MARK
I think Schumacher and a few others talked about this in F1 last year,
but the feeling was that at the speeds the cars go, the bars couldn't be
strong enough for protecting anything more than a very light tap (which
probably wouldn't launch a car anyway.
Dan Arnold
Roy A. Beck wrote:
> Steve Vandergriff <"<remove this>piston"@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >William Dahms wrote:
> >>
> >> did Krosnoff die at the no. 8 corner?
> >
> >The accident happened at the approach to turn three, just at the
> >underpass.
> >
> >>
> >> how did his car get off the ground?
> >
> >His wheels touched Stefan Johannsen's, sending him into an airborn
> spin
> >just before heavy braking would have been applied. The cockpit
> >violently struck one of the concrete underpass supports during the
> spin.
> >
> Are you sure it was an underpass support? My memory tells me it was a
> concrete or steel light pole. Not that it makes much difference,
> whatever it was should not have been outside the catch fence.
>
> Race safe all,
>
> Roy A. Beck
> rab...@pei.sympatico.ca
The tree that Krosnoff hit was not outside the fence, there was no fence
at that point on the track, although fencing has been added this year.
Dan Arnold
Dan Arnold
Earl Ma wrote:
> In article <33CC00...@benden.net>, Tr...@benden.net says...
> >
> >
> >This is a classic example of why i turn to NASCAR... I certain;y
> don't
> >wish to make light of the subject...the deaths were terrible and
> >unnecessary...it is so sad the way the racing community has lost such
>
> >great drivers in recent years....all in the name of speed. NASCAR
> racers
> >may not reach teh dizzying speeds of F1 or Indy cars all the
> time....but
> >put two Cup cars in that scenario..and all that happens is a small
> wreck
> >and a few bumps and bruises....
I hate to be the one to tell you, but NASCAR began as an open wheel
racing series, and it's most exciting series is open wheel, "By the
grace of God, and 700 Horsepower..." is the motto of the Featherlite
Modified Tour, the modifieds competed in the first Nascar sanctioned
race, on the beach in Daytona, they modified the cars, by taking off the
fenders, and have provided us with great racing since then.
> >
> >How many people have died driver a car WITH fenders in recent
> years...as
> >opposed to those without?
>
and John Nemecheck in the Craftsman Truck Series this year.also a few
short track drivers died in the Northeast last year, don't remember any
names, but I know one of them had a heart attack during the race, at
Thompson in CT.
>
>
> Compare this to the major/minor open wheel series:
>
> CART/IndyCar:
> 1982 - Gordon Smiley, Jim Hickman
> 1992 - Jovy Marcelo
> 1996 - Jeff Krosnoff
>
> IRL:
> 1996 - Scott Brayton
>
> F1:
> 1982 - Gilles Villeneuve, Riccardo Paletti
> 1986 - Elio de Angelis
> 1994 - Roland Ratzenberger, Ayrton Senna
>
> F3(?):
> The names of Marco Campos and Paul Warwick come to mind, circa
> 1993-94.
>
> Also, I'm overlooking a Japanese driver whose name eludes me (an
> overall
> Daytona 24 Hrs. winner) killed in a Japanese F3000 crash around 1995.
>
> In other words, fenders and closed cockpits do NOT necessarily equal
> more
> safety!
>
> Earl
Someone said something about bars to prevent wheel to wheel contact,
they are called Nerf bars on the modifieds, Nascar already thought of
that.
Racing is not always safe, drivers know that, but it's a craving for
speed and competition, our drugs. If ya can't take the danger, dont
race.
Dan Arnold
#13 ISTRS
Dennis Lew
: how did his car get off the ground?
: Does anybody else here question the saftey of turn 8 at toronto? way to
: tight, with hairpin trun going in at 175+ with short braking zone (due
: to high downforce setting). Whats more, you can't see what is going on
: untill the last minute because trun 7 is high speed and blocks the view
: of 8.
: That corner needs a serious design overhall IMO. I don't want to see a
: second death this year
That tradegy had nothing to do with the design of the track. As a matter of
fact the design of the track saved the large number of spectators who were
in the area, from flying debris. The truth is the accident happened because
a lot of cars were battling for a limited space; Jeff, was unfortunately
squeezed out, and on these street courses there is nowhere for the cars
to go.
--
Dennis
EMAIL: av...@freenet.toronto.on.ca
Ace Rimmer
Mr.Excitement wrote in article <33CC29...@worldnet.att.net>...
>I remember watching the race and remember the accident. Man, I gotta say
>it was one of most gruesome accidents I've seen. I believe that when
>Jeff got airborne, the fence was what got him into the spin. I remember
>the front spoiler practically taking the corner worker's head off. Then
>the car got severly damaged when it hit the side of the underpass. The
>car came out of the underpass in many small pieces, and I couldn't make
>out the drivers cockpit.
>
>I'm just wondering if a bar around each wheel will prevent the many
>accidents when tires touch on these cars. Not fenders, but bars covering
>the front and back of each wheel. The rule would be that the bars would
>have to be the same height on all cars. I've seen these things work on
>go karts and save them from flips.
>
>just a thought,
>
>MARK
Yes, I'm not a regular Indy viewer but this one I did see. The first I saw
was a few cars rolling to a halt and the rear of a car lying on the tarmac.
Then I saw a moncoque and went :"Oh my God...."
The replay was really horrendous.
The crashes of Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna also are etched into my
mind for eternity.
But as to what can be done about cars getting airborne in Indy and F-1, the
fender options MIGHT look good, but this could also lead to many a blown
tyre. Especially at the start, as someone bumping into another could force
the fender onto the wheel, and the ffender would then carve away on the
trye, leading to a blowout later on.
"Fellas, stoke me a clipper,
I'll be back for Christmas."
"It's sharper than a page of Oscar Wilde whitticisms rolled into a
point,
sprinkled with lemon juice and stuck into someone's eye."
Ace Rimmer, Red Dwarf VII
Herbert Ackermans.