HELP: 93 Toyota Corolla vibration problem!
jonb...@yahoo.com
I have a 1993 Toyota Corolla with 265k miles on it. There is a
vibration that has the following symptoms:
- it only occurs on the highway
- it starts gradually and increases in severity, then eventually fades
away and disappears within 10 miles.
- it happens only occasionally, seemingly randomly, and when it does
happen it happens at all speeds, not just a certain speed
- it appears to come from the front of the vehicle.
- you can feel it in the steering wheel AND the brake pedal
- it does not happen on local roads or at local roads speed
- when the vibration starts, you must bring the car to a complete stop
to get rid of it. If you only slow down, to local road speeds
(30-40mph) and then speed up again, it will still be present. The car
must come to a complete stop in order to proceed without a vibration
- it happens in the cold and warmish weather (here in boston is in the
40s and 50s now. it happens in 30s, 40s or 50s)
- i put in brand new front rotors and this did not cure it.
Please help. Email me with any advice that you can. Thanks!
-Jon
Radbert Grimmig
>I have a 1993 Toyota Corolla with 265k miles on it.
Barely broken in, I see =8-)
>There is a
>vibration that has the following symptoms:
[snipped]
What you describe is truly puzzling. My best guess would be a shot
ball in a wheel bearing, I had something similar some years ago in a
sidecar motorycle.
Regards
Radbert
HLS
<jonb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:98ecc244-c604-45ae...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Have you checked for worn joints, parts, etc in the front
suspension?..Include
CV or halfshaft joints in that. I would do this first and thoroughly as
this is
one of the symptoms of worn front end parts, you need to eliminate things
systematically and not throw parts at it, and last because it can kill you
if
you break a key front suspension part.
Hachiroku ハチロク
Ya, dot too....
Also, tires (a broken belt or a missing wheel weight), bearings, calipers,
etc.
Anything attached to the suspension that is worn can cause a vibration,
esp at this mileage. Take it to a good tire/suspension shop and have it
checked!
Ralph
In the last 3 years I have replaced the:
-lower ball joints
-shock struts and
-front wheel bearings.
For your safety, inspect everything.
On this group there are experts who may be able to diagnose the condition
now causing vibration based on the described symptoms.
Good luck!
- Jack
zzyzzx
Jeff Strickland
Just thought I'd share ...
jonb...@yahoo.com
Here is what I've been told. My mechanic says that it is the new
tires I bought a little less than 5000 miles ago. He says that the
tires are stretching when they warm up and there is a defect in the
tire. The tire place claims that the wheels have hops in them. They
showed me a slight wobble in my wheels. They are 14" steel, so i
doubt this is the issue. also, the wobble was so slight that it could
not possibly cause this violent of a vibration. Thridly, the
vibration is not constant, but intermittent.
So, does the tire defect seem logical to everyone? They are Yokohama
Avid TRZ 185-65R14.
Thanks for all your help thus far! You guys are great.
-jon
Ray O
<jonb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ffeac22e-5607-49e1...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
A bad tire or tires is plausible, as are a damaged wheel. A wobble, dent,
or deformation in the wheel that is visible will almost definitely cause a
vibration, although the vibration is more likely to be consistent and not
intermittent.
Another possibility is that there is rust on the wheel to hub mating surface
and the wheel is not as securely mounted as it appears to be. The fix is to
remove the wheel, clean up the hub and wheel where they contact, apply a
very light coating of anti-seize, and re-install the wheels.
Have the shop or your mechanic measure wheel and tire lateral and radial
runout to determine which of these is the cause of the vibration.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
EdV
> ZZYZX RD., is an exit from I-15 about 40 miles south of Las Vegas ...
>
> Just thought I'd share ...
Can I use that in Scrabble?
Hachiroku ハチロク
> The tire
> place claims that the wheels have hops in them.
Now all you need is some barley and make a malt! (Sorry, couldn't resist.
What the hell is a 'hop'?)
Jeff Strickland
"Hachiroku ハチロク" <Tru...@ae86.gts> wrote in message
news:S9dMj.110$SR2.48@trndny03...
It's what they combine barley and yeast with ...
DUH!
jonb...@yahoo.com
> What the hell is a 'hop'?)
A hop is their laymans term for a wheel that isn't true. A bent
wheel. I always thought wheel hop was when one applied too much
torque while accellerating, and the tires broke free and started to
"hop" up and down. Clearly something my corolla doesn't have the
balls to do haha.
HLS
"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
> Another possibility is that there is rust on the wheel to hub mating
> surface and the wheel is not as securely mounted as it appears to be. The
> fix is to remove the wheel, clean up the hub and wheel where they contact,
> apply a very light coating of anti-seize, and re-install the wheels.
>
> Have the shop or your mechanic measure wheel and tire lateral and radial
> runout to determine which of these is the cause of the vibration.
> --
>
While everything you say is true, it bothers me a little bit that he can
stop the
oscillation by stopping the car and restarting.
OP....Have you rotated your tires recently and, if so, did this make any
difference??
Ray O
"HLS" <nos...@nospam.nix> wrote in message
news:_RpMj.8248$V14....@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...
If the wheel is not properly mounted to the vehicle and the wheel is
shifting a little, applying the brakes can seat the wheel, and after driving
for a distance, the wheel shifts to where is causes a vibration again.
Measuring the lateral and radial runout of the wheel and tire separately
will determine whether the wheel or tire is the cause of the problem.
Cleaning up the wheel - vehicle mating surfaces will eliminate an improperly
mounted wheel as a possible cause.
Besides the wheel, tire, and wheel mounting, there are other possible causes
of vehicle vibrations, like a defective tire that has an internal problem
like a broken belt, CV joints, ball joints, rack ends, out-of-alignment,
suspension problem, wheel bearings, and a transmission problem.
Taking a systematic approach eliminates the most likely causes of the
problem and narrows down the possible sources of the vibration.
jonb...@yahoo.com
> OP....Have you rotated your tires recently and, if so, did this make any
> difference??
Hi,
I did rotate them less than 5k miles ago when I had the new ones
installed. Basically i had the fronts moved to the rear, and the new
tires installed in the front.
jonb...@yahoo.com
> Besides the wheel, tire, and wheel mounting, there are other possible causes
> of vehicle vibrations, like a defective tire that has an internal problem
> like a broken belt, CV joints, ball joints, rack ends, out-of-alignment,
> suspension problem, wheel bearings, and a transmission problem.
My mechanic, although not infallable, has gone through all of hte
front suspension components 2 times on 2 separate days and swears that
it is not a suspension component issue. Although I can appreciate
that it front suspension issues often cause vibration... so its good
that you wrote this... :-)
> Taking a systematic approach eliminates the most likely causes of the
> problem and narrows down the possible sources of the vibration.
Agreed. Definitely.
Ray O
<jonb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:58e3dd82-44c8-4a02...@u69g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
If the suspension and steering components are in good condition, then the
next things to re-check are
Wheel and tire balance, preferably on a machine that simulates road force
Inspection of the tires for internal damage or defects
Wheel/hub interface
Wheel lateral and radial runout as measured by a dial indicator
Tire lateral and radial runout as measured by a dial indicator
jonb...@yahoo.com
I had the tires changed out for brand new Yokoham Avid TRZ. they were
under warranty so it didn't cost me anything. However, the vibration
still persisted. The new additional symptoms are as follows:
1. when the vibration occurs, you can get out of the car and feel the
temperature of the steel wheels. The Passenger Front wheel is hot to
the touch and will burn you. the rest are cool to the touch.
2. the brake pedal has less travel and feels stiffer.
3. more gas pedal effort and reduced gas mileage during periods of
vibration.
4. this problem will start randomly and is not dependent on if you are
using the brakes. I was on the highway at 1AM and didn't use the
brakes for 30 miles and it still started.
Now here is what I think, although i'm not a mechanic... I think it
has something to do with the front passenger-side caliper. It may be
locking up somehow. But i noticed on local roads before the vibration
starts, if the pedal is stiff, pump it a few times and it goes away...
ie the brakes unlock. The weird thing is I put brand new calipers in
there 3k miles ago.... could one be defective?
Any help or insight would be appreciated. Thanks.
-Jon
Mike Romain
To test it you need to jack up the wheel and feel the drag that is
causing the heat, then loosen off the bleeder screw. If the wheel
releases, you have found the likely trouble.
A bad wheel bearing can also affect the brake caliper. It can cause the
rotor to drag against one side of the caliper which can overheat it
also. One other symptom of this can be a different feel in the brake
pedal's first pump after a hard turn to one side or the other. If the
second pump seems higher or lower with the third pump getting back to
normal, it can indicate a bad bearing.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
Scott Dorsey
>NEW SYMPTOMS:
>
>I had the tires changed out for brand new Yokoham Avid TRZ. they were
>under warranty so it didn't cost me anything. However, the vibration
>still persisted. The new additional symptoms are as follows:
>
>1. when the vibration occurs, you can get out of the car and feel the
>temperature of the steel wheels. The Passenger Front wheel is hot to
>the touch and will burn you. the rest are cool to the touch.
Sounds like a brake problem.
>2. the brake pedal has less travel and feels stiffer.
Sounds like a brake problem.
>3. more gas pedal effort and reduced gas mileage during periods of
>vibration.
>4. this problem will start randomly and is not dependent on if you are
>using the brakes. I was on the highway at 1AM and didn't use the
>brakes for 30 miles and it still started.
Does lightly tapping on the brakes stop it?
>Now here is what I think, although i'm not a mechanic... I think it
>has something to do with the front passenger-side caliper. It may be
>locking up somehow. But i noticed on local roads before the vibration
>starts, if the pedal is stiff, pump it a few times and it goes away...
>ie the brakes unlock. The weird thing is I put brand new calipers in
>there 3k miles ago.... could one be defective?
That sure sounds like it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
jonb...@yahoo.com
SOME DARN GOOD ADVICE
Thanks mike!! I will try that stuff today before I bring it into the
mechanic to try and diagnose if it is the wheel bearing or the hose.
He did mention that it is probably the hose. But I will tell him
about the wheel bearing test that you suggested. Great Advice!
Thanks.
krp
<jonb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b9cc46ff-47ef-46f4...@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> NEW SYMPTOMS:
>
> I had the tires changed out for brand new Yokoham Avid TRZ. they were
> under warranty so it didn't cost me anything. However, the vibration
> still persisted. The new additional symptoms are as follows:
>
> 1. when the vibration occurs, you can get out of the car and feel the
> temperature of the steel wheels. The Passenger Front wheel is hot to
> the touch and will burn you. the rest are cool to the touch.
>
> 2. the brake pedal has less travel and feels stiffer.
Here is what you should do. Have all 4 wheels dynamically balanced off the
car. Be sure to watch closely for any wheel that seems to wobble on the
machine. IF it runs true - then have a dynamic balance done ON the car. See
if the wobble appears. If it runs true on the dynamic balance off the car
but there is a wobble ON the car then you may have some bad wheel bearings.
Start with that right front. Look at the rotor for discoloration.
krp
"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fu7oc3$rnd$1...@panix2.panix.com...
> <jonb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>NEW SYMPTOMS:
>>
>>I had the tires changed out for brand new Yokoham Avid TRZ. they were
>>under warranty so it didn't cost me anything. However, the vibration
>>still persisted. The new additional symptoms are as follows:
>>
>>1. when the vibration occurs, you can get out of the car and feel the
>>temperature of the steel wheels. The Passenger Front wheel is hot to
>>the touch and will burn you. the rest are cool to the touch.
>
> Sounds like a brake problem.
Sounds more like a BENT wheel.
Ray O
Replace both front brake hoses, replace the brake fluid, and bleed the
brakes.
krp
"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
>> I had the tires changed out for brand new Yokoham Avid TRZ. they were
>> under warranty so it didn't cost me anything. However, the vibration
>> still persisted. The new additional symptoms are as follows:
>>
>> 1. when the vibration occurs, you can get out of the car and feel the
>> temperature of the steel wheels. The Passenger Front wheel is hot to
>> the touch and will burn you. the rest are cool to the touch.
>>
>> 2. the brake pedal has less travel and feels stiffer.
>>
>> 3. more gas pedal effort and reduced gas mileage during periods of
>> vibration.
>>
>> 4. this problem will start randomly and is not dependent on if you are
>> using the brakes. I was on the highway at 1AM and didn't use the
>> brakes for 30 miles and it still started.
>>
>> Now here is what I think, although i'm not a mechanic... I think it
>> has something to do with the front passenger-side caliper. It may be
>> locking up somehow. But i noticed on local roads before the vibration
>> starts, if the pedal is stiff, pump it a few times and it goes away...
>> ie the brakes unlock. The weird thing is I put brand new calipers in
>> there 3k miles ago.... could one be defective?
>>
>> Any help or insight would be appreciated. Thanks.
>>
>> -Jon
>>
>
> Replace both front brake hoses, replace the brake fluid, and bleed the
> brakes.
That may not get the problem. Most tire places use a "static balance."
system. Okay for some purposes on newer cars, but this car is 15 years old.
Wheels on the 93 Toyota were not exactly the strongest. The wheel needs a
dynamic balance and CLOSE inspection to see how true it is running. On the
older cars potholes can tend to cause the wheels to become bent. I'd start
there. Also the Corolla of the 90's was famous for bad wheel bearings. We
could assume it has disc brakes on the front wheels. A close inspection of
the spindle and the rotor are next. Not knowing how many miles are on the
car (generally we can assume over 100,000) at this age as a minimum - you
have all sorts of culprits along the way as possibles. Maybe even
combinations. That's without getting to any suspension parts. Look at the
most likely first.
1. Bent wheel.
2. Bad wheel balance.
3. Bad bearing.
4. Bad rotor or worn spindle.
5. Suspension parts. (there are several high failure parts on the corolla)
The brake son the Corolla CAN be bad, but have been one of the more
reliable things about Toyota. The only question here is how many times the
rotors were turned and how accurately. MANY brake shops are butchers. The
cut rate places often have poorly trained KIDS doing the job. Nobody should
be surprised when they screw up. If too much is taken off a rotor when it is
turned, they get sort of square after a while. As the too THINK rotor heats
up it tends to go our of round.
Look at the most likely first. Brake lines are down the list pretty
far. Since it is only ONE side that seems to be causing the vibration I
would look for the most likely things first. You MAY wind up with a bad
brake hose, but I'd look elsewhere first. Besides you can't really tell
about the hose even when you remove it. Not unless it is obviously
collapsed. Hardening of the brake hose arteries is not impossible, just
unlikely.
You can start to see the problem when you spin up the wheel on the car.
Most tire stores will CHECK the wheel balance OFF the car for free.
Especially the store where you bought the tires.
N8N
I'd say it's VERY likely a hose or caliper based on the symptoms
posted. Sounds like dragging pads which have caused the rotor to
warp. So probably he will end up with a new hose, caliper, and rotor
before the problem is solved. I say caliper because even if the hose
is the cause of the problem the seals in the caliper may have been
toasted by the heat and I would replace all three just to be certain
that I've got the problem and won't end up with another one shortly.
nate
Ray O
" krp" <krp2...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:LnYNj.48533$tw3.16015@trnddc03...
tire shops around here use dynamic balancers, and some even have Hunter's
new Road Force dynamic balancer.
The problem I've seen on some old brake hoses is not hardening, but a
deterioration of the lining. The lining flakes off and blocks the line so
when the pedal is released, residual pressure keeps the caliper piston from
releasing.
Mark
>
> - Show quoted text -
I agree, I had this happen, if the brakes drag, after driving on the
highway, the rotor will overheat and warp and cause a vibration due to
the brakes dragging on a warped rotor..
fix the dragging brake and you'll also get better gas milage.
Mark
Comboverfish
>
> > Replace both front brake hoses, replace the brake fluid, and bleed the
> > brakes.
>
> That may not get the problem. Most tire places use a "static balance."
> system.
Which region(s) are you basing this data on? Static balancing would
yield a satisfactory result for most people most of the time, but what
reputable shop relies on this method anymore?
> Okay for some purposes on newer cars, but this car is 15 years old.
> Wheels on the 93 Toyota were not exactly the strongest.
What exactly is wrong with 93 Corolla wheels? Do you even know what
their dimensions are? How many lugs and what's their spacing? What
changed about this in 1998?
> The wheel needs a
> dynamic balance and CLOSE inspection to see how true it is running. On the
> older cars potholes can tend to cause the wheels to become bent.
Yes, newer cars avoid this entirely.
> I'd start there. Also the Corolla of the 90's was famous for bad wheel bearings.
I'm curious, what specific problems were the "90's Corolla wheel
bearings" famous for? Would this include, say, a 1999 Corolla?
> We could assume it has disc brakes on the front wheels,
Why assume something (that is groin-poundingly obvious anyway)?
Really? "Disc brakes" on the front of a 90's rice burner? Wow, what
will they think of next?!
> A close inspection of
> the spindle and the rotor are next. Not knowing how many miles are on the
> car (generally we can assume over 100,000)
Of course you can; you prophesied that his car has disc brakes! Who
would doubt your clairvoyance?
> at this age as a minimum - you
> have all sorts of culprits along the way as possibles. Maybe even
> combinations. That's without getting to any suspension parts. Look at the
> most likely first.
>
> 1. Bent wheel.
> 2. Bad wheel balance.
> 3. Bad bearing.
> 4. Bad rotor or worn spindle.
> 5. Suspension parts. (there are several high failure parts on the corolla)
>
> The brake son the Corolla CAN be bad, but have been one of the more
> reliable things about Toyota. The only question here is how many times the
> rotors were turned and how accurately. MANY brake shops are butchers. The
> cut rate places often have poorly trained KIDS doing the job. Nobody should
> be surprised when they screw up. If too much is taken off a rotor when it is
> turned, they get sort of square after a while. As the too THINK rotor heats
> up it tends to go our of round.
After a shotgun rotor replacement the problem still exists.
Hmmmmmmmmm...
> Look at the most likely first. Brake lines are down the list pretty
> far. Since it is only ONE side that seems to be causing the vibration I
> would look for the most likely things first.
Only one side wheel seems to be getting hotter that the rest. That
doesn't mean the source of the vibration has been isolated to one
side.
> You MAY wind up with a bad
> brake hose, but I'd look elsewhere first. Besides you can't really tell
> about the hose even when you remove it. Not unless it is obviously
> collapsed. Hardening of the brake hose arteries is not impossible, just
> unlikely.
Let's copmpletely discount it then.
> You can start to see the problem when you spin up the wheel on the car.
> Most tire stores will CHECK the wheel balance OFF the car for free.
You have a vast knowledge of what *most* shops will do.
> Especially the store where you bought the tires.
All above advice noted, now direct the OP to a competent mechanic.
Toyota MDT in MO
Comboverfish
Don't discount the possibility that the right side drive axle is
binding once it has been in motion for some time. The most likely
cause of brake-off, power/coast vibration on a car such as this is a
bad inner joint on the longer CV axle. Your car's longer CV axle
happens to be on the right side. There are too many possibilities to
list so I'm just mentioning something that it could *likely* be. Even
the outboard joint on the right side could be binding intermittently
and causing the higher right wheel temp. Proper diagnosis from a
competent mechanic charging fair prices would be your best course of
action.
Toyota MDT in MO
krp
"N8N" <njn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:19fbb3f5-104a-4e7e...@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> You can start to see the problem when you spin up the wheel on the car.
> Most tire stores will CHECK the wheel balance OFF the car for free.
> Especially the store where you bought the tires.- Hide quoted text -
< I'd say it's VERY likely a hose or caliper based on the symptoms
< posted. Sounds like dragging pads which have caused the rotor to
< warp. So probably he will end up with a new hose, caliper, and rotor
< before the problem is solved. I say caliper because even if the hose
< is the cause of the problem the seals in the caliper may have been
< toasted by the heat and I would replace all three just to be certain
< that I've got the problem and won't end up with another one shortly.
It can seem the pads are bad when in fact the rotor is not running true.
Rotors on the Corolla generally warp because they have been turned at least
one time too many. You can't just replace one side. IF it turns out that is
the culprit - calipers and rotor - he'll need to do both sides. That gets
expensive. You are looking at maybe a $300 - $600 job. Given that the steel
wheels on the Toyotas are a bit thin to start with, and tend to go egg
shaped just with normal use (pot holes) you might consider that 15 year old
wheels may be just a little egg shaped. It may be that simple. Start with
the cheap stuff first. Since he just got new tires - a dynamic balance
(spin) seems a good place to start, most tire stores will check it for FREE.
If the wheel is true, then you can look at the rotor. IF that's it it is
going to stick out like a sore thumb. The rotor will be blue as hell.
Somebody MAY have put new pads on without turning the rotor. So the pad will
also look like dog meat. This stuff is hard to miss.
I don't know where the guy got his new tires. It seems to me that it
would be unlikely that any tire store would miss bunged up rotors etc. Every
mechanic is a salesman. They are paid to notice that stuff and pass it up
the food chain to sell a brake job. Now, many tire stores get VERY sloppy on
wheel balances, they often miss our of round wheels especially on 15 year
old cars. But the problem may be more subtle - something a "tire mounter"
would miss. That says to me a failed SUSPENSION part. OR a CV joint. You
need a REAL mechanic to see that. In 99% of tire stores the guys who mount
new tires are at the bottom of the food chain, often high school kids who
are taught only how to bust and mount tires and maybe do a static balance.
(Little bubble machine.) These grunts work on volume getting tin (cars) in
and out as fast as they can. They usually can't spot problems that don't
yell at them like a blue rotor or hanging pad. They look at only the big
stuff they can see. The REAL mechanics are busy on high dollar profitable
work, brake jobs, front ends and the like given the limits of the shop's
scope of work. Maybe en exhaust system job.
The hose on the Toyotas are one of the more robust parts on the car. I'd
just not start at the least likely. You are right about the brakes, but
generally those tend to share the problem from side to side. It's easy to
spot for a car owner with 20/20 vision. Look at the rotor. Is it gouged or
dark blue. If so, you have an expensive brake problem. If not, look at those
wheels and wheel bearings. The Corollas tend to use up bearings if they are
not repacked at least once a year. Same for the Nissans. Since the Corolla
is FWD, the CV joint may be shot. Those tend to wear unevenly from side to
side and the right joint tends to fail first in most FWD cars. Again it is a
job that when you replace one side, do BOTH because you'll be back in weeks
to do the left side anyway.
krp
"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
>> Look at the most likely first. Brake lines are down the list pretty
>> far. Since it is only ONE side that seems to be causing the vibration I
>> would look for the most likely things first. You MAY wind up with a bad
>> brake hose, but I'd look elsewhere first. Besides you can't really tell
>> about the hose even when you remove it. Not unless it is obviously
>> collapsed. Hardening of the brake hose arteries is not impossible, just
>> unlikely.
>> You can start to see the problem when you spin up the wheel on the
>> car. Most tire stores will CHECK the wheel balance OFF the car for free.
>> Especially the store where you bought the tires.
> I already suggested, and the OP checked, most of the stuff you listed.
> Most tire shops around here use dynamic balancers, and some even have
> Hunter's new Road Force dynamic balancer.
If the wheels were run on a dynamic balance then I'd look at the CV
joint.
> The problem I've seen on some old brake hoses is not hardening, but a
> deterioration of the lining. The lining flakes off and blocks the line so
> when the pedal is released, residual pressure keeps the caliper piston
> from releasing.
Well on the Toyota the brake hoses tend to be on the robust side. Not
unusual to last 20 years with no problems. IF the caliper is hanging the
rotor will be blued. That should stand out to ANY tire mounter. Since you
suggest that the wheels WERE balanced and are NOT out of round in either
axis, then not knowing all that was or wasn't checked, I'd suspect a CV
joint. THOSE on the Corollas tend to crap out sometime after 10 years. Much
better than American cars.
Here is what strikes me. He just got 4 new tires. It is hitting only ONE
side of the car. (Right front). It was something that a worker hot to MAKE
sales would likely not see. Suggest that obvious BRAKE things hanging pads
and blued rotors weren't present. So it is a process of elimination. If I
assume even marginal competence of the tire store folks - something they'd
NOT necessarily pick up on would be a suspension part or CV joint.
krp
"Mark" <mako...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0765f04c-13ed-43fd...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> I'd say it's VERY likely a hose or caliper based on the symptoms
> posted. Sounds like dragging pads which have caused the rotor to
> warp. So probably he will end up with a new hose, caliper, and rotor
> before the problem is solved. I say caliper because even if the hose
> is the cause of the problem the seals in the caliper may have been
> toasted by the heat and I would replace all three just to be certain
> that I've got the problem and won't end up with another one shortly.
>
> nate- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
< I agree, I had this happen, if the brakes drag, after driving on the
< highway, the rotor will overheat and warp and cause a vibration due to
< the brakes dragging on a warped rotor..
And so the rotor will be a pretty MIDNIGHT BLUE. Do you think the guys in
the tire store would likely miss that?
krp
"Comboverfish" <combov...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:499a9447-1c30-44e5...@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 18, 2:48 am, " krp" <krp24...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > Replace both front brake hoses, replace the brake fluid, and bleed the
> > brakes.
> That may not get the problem. Most tire places use a "static balance."
> system.
< Which region(s) are you basing this data on? Static balancing would
< yield a satisfactory result for most people most of the time, but what
< reputable shop relies on this method anymore?
Static balance only examine ONE exis of wheel balance and trueness.
Granted most GOOD shops use dynamic balance today. Ever been in a Wal-Mart
tire shop? K-Mart?
> Okay for some purposes on newer cars, but this car is 15 years old.
> Wheels on the 93 Toyota were not exactly the strongest.
< What exactly is wrong with 93 Corolla wheels? Do you even know what
< their dimensions are? How many lugs and what's their spacing? What
< changed about this in 1998?
The standard steel wheel on the Corolla is not the most robust. Which
dimension are you talking about? The 15" rims with a 5 bolt pattern? Or do
you want to talk about the thickness of the steel in the wheel itself? If
so, at what point in the wheel? You know the bead is pretty thick, but the
center section of the wheel where it is welded to the base is pretty thin.
You know, I've never taken a mic to measure the spacing of the lig holes.
I'll have to get back to you on that. Also not being a Toyota expert in that
precise a manner, I'd probably never have seen the change from a 4 bolt
pattern to the 5 bolt pattern.
> The wheel needs a dynamic balance and CLOSE inspection to see how true it
> is running. On the
> older cars potholes can tend to cause the wheels to become bent.
< Yes, newer cars avoid this entirely.
No but wheel construction has been changed with more cars usily alloy
wheels today.
> I'd start there. Also the Corolla of the 90's was famous for bad wheel
> bearings.
< I'm curious, what specific problems were the "90's Corolla wheel
< bearings" famous for? Would this include, say, a 1999 Corolla?
The problems were in going SQUARE of not inspected and repacked every
20,000 miles or so.
> We could assume it has disc brakes on the front wheels,
< Why assume something (that is groin-poundingly obvious anyway)?
< Really? "Disc brakes" on the front of a 90's rice burner? Wow, what
< will they think of next?!
Round tires. Smart ass.
> A close inspection of the spindle and the rotor are next. Not knowing how
> many miles are on the
> car (generally we can assume over 100,000)
< Of course you can; you prophesied that his car has disc brakes! Who
< would doubt your clairvoyance?
Look clown - I know people with a 1989 Toyota with 40,000 miles on them.
I also know some folks with 200,000 miles on a 2006 Corolla.
> at this age as a minimum - you have all sorts of culprits along the way as
> possibles. Maybe even
> combinations. That's without getting to any suspension parts. Look at the
> most likely first.
> 1. Bent wheel.
> 2. Bad wheel balance.
> 3. Bad bearing.
> 4. Bad rotor or worn spindle.
> 5. Suspension parts. (there are several high failure parts on the corolla)
>
> The brake son the Corolla CAN be bad, but have been one of the more
> reliable things about Toyota. The only question here is how many times the
> rotors were turned and how accurately. MANY brake shops are butchers. The
> cut rate places often have poorly trained KIDS doing the job. Nobody
> should
> be surprised when they screw up. If too much is taken off a rotor when it
> is
> turned, they get sort of square after a while. As the too THINK rotor
> heats
> up it tends to go our of round.
< After a shotgun rotor replacement the problem still exists.Hmmmmmmmmm...
I was speaking of TURNING the rotor. There are only so many times you
can shave a rotor on the best of cars. Also lots depends on the mechanic,
they can shave too much off. And that isn't uncommon.
> Look at the most likely first. Brake lines are down the list pretty
> far. Since it is only ONE side that seems to be causing the vibration I
> would look for the most likely things first.
< Only one side wheel seems to be getting hotter that the rest. That
< doesn't mean the source of the vibration has been isolated to one
< side.
Yeah - and IF the problem is ONLY brake related (hanging calipers) don't
you think the rotor on that side would likely be a pretty shade of dark
blue? AT least if not ridged?
> You MAY wind up with a bad brake hose, but I'd look elsewhere first.
> Besides you can't really tell
> about the hose even when you remove it. Not unless it is obviously
> collapsed. Hardening of the brake hose arteries is not impossible, just
> unlikely.
< Let's copmpletely discount it then.
I didn't say that, did I, smartass? I merely said START with the MOST
LIKELY - then those things have been eliminated you progress. HOWEVER - in
this case IF it is brakes - most likely it will show. What I have seen on 15
year old cars is repairs done often on the cheap. Rotors turned when they
shouldn't have been. Calipers kept on when they should have been replaced.
One too many back yard repairs by owners. Usually young and inexperienced.
Again the KEY here is whether or not the tires were mounted in an ACTUAL
garage or the back yard. IF this were the brakes as dogmaticly suggested
here, IF the problem is a hanging caliper or a bad brake hose, then it would
have been hard to miss. IF the caliper is hanging with pressure not
releasing, then the pads will be making constant contact with the rotors.
BLUE AS HELL eventually. If it is that the brake hose on the right has
collapsed or closed (hardening of the artery) than you sure as hell will
tell it driving the car, and I don't mean a shaking. Don't you think if you
have ONE SIDE where it is working okay and the other side isn't that when
you hit the brakes it would tend to PULL just a little bit? Maybe
violently?? That's not what I read so far.
> You can start to see the problem when you spin up the wheel on the car.
> Most tire stores will CHECK the wheel balance OFF the car for free.
< You have a vast knowledge of what *most* shops will do.
Look JACKASS - I worked for both Firestone AND Goodyear. I also owned my
own parts store. Am I a mechanic? NO! But I know a LITTLE about cars.Enough
to have raced in USAC and SCCA.
> Especially the store where you bought the tires.
< All above advice noted, now direct the OP to a competent mechanic.
There are some things the owner can see. Like a BRIGHT DARK BLUE ROTOR.
Don't you think a suspensioin part or CV joint is worth of consideration?
krp
Don't discount the possibility that the right side drive axle is
binding once it has been in motion for some time. The most likely
cause of brake-off, power/coast vibration on a car such as this is a
bad inner joint on the longer CV axle. Your car's longer CV axle
happens to be on the right side. There are too many possibilities to
list so I'm just mentioning something that it could *likely* be. Even
the outboard joint on the right side could be binding intermittently
and causing the higher right wheel temp. Proper diagnosis from a
competent mechanic charging fair prices would be your best course of
action.
===========
BINGO.
N8N
> "Mark" <makol...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
I think they did. How else to you explain the one wheel being hot to
the touch but not the others? My money is still on a brake issue.
nate
krp
>> > I'd say it's VERY likely a hose or caliper based on the symptoms
>> > posted. Sounds like dragging pads which have caused the rotor to
>> > warp. So probably he will end up with a new hose, caliper, and rotor
>> > before the problem is solved. I say caliper because even if the hose
>> > is the cause of the problem the seals in the caliper may have been
>> > toasted by the heat and I would replace all three just to be certain
>> > that I've got the problem and won't end up with another one shortly.
>>
>> > nate- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> < I agree, I had this happen, if the brakes drag, after driving on the
>> < highway, the rotor will overheat and warp and cause a vibration due to
>> < the brakes dragging on a warped rotor..
>>
>> And so the rotor will be a pretty MIDNIGHT BLUE. Do you think the guys
>> in
>> the tire store would likely miss that?
> I think they did. How else to you explain the one wheel being hot to
> the touch but not the others? My money is still on a brake issue.
If THEY missed it how about you? Is it blue or not?
Let's take the brakes. You'll need to mic the rotor see if it is within
tolerance (thickness) that break open the caliper and look at the pads. I
never said you were "wrong" on this - just that I'd look other places first.
Like the CV joint. If there is a problem you'll see it when you remove the
caliper and look at the pads. It IS possible that it needs a cleaning of the
pistons and gaskets. (O -rings) I have seen a great many brake jobs really
done half-assed. Or on the cheap. BAD IDEA.
I don't know if you have owned this car for a long time or not. One
CORNERS CUT brake job is all it takes. Then you are looking at the
potential to replace both front rotors and calipers plus pads. The good
thing is that good parts should be easy to find in a bone yard. Good rotors
and calipers. Thing is they are common as dirt. It may be brakes. I'd not
bet on the hose, but it is a cheap fix if it is.
Ray O
>
> "Comboverfish" <combov...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:499a9447-1c30-44e5...@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 18, 2:48 am, " krp" <krp24...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>> > Replace both front brake hoses, replace the brake fluid, and bleed the
>> > brakes.
>
>> That may not get the problem. Most tire places use a "static balance."
>> system.
>
> < Which region(s) are you basing this data on? Static balancing would
> < yield a satisfactory result for most people most of the time, but what
> < reputable shop relies on this method anymore?
>
> Static balance only examine ONE exis of wheel balance and trueness.
> Granted most GOOD shops use dynamic balance today. Ever been in a Wal-Mart
> tire shop? K-Mart?
The Wal-Mart and K-Mart shops here in the Midwest all use dynamic balancers.
The wheel bearings on the OP's Corolla are sealed and are not repack-able.
I've seen lots of rotors warp that are not discolored. The best way to
check the condition of the rotor is to measure lateral and radial runout.
krp
"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
>>> > Replace both front brake hoses, replace the brake fluid, and bleed the
>>> > brakes.
>>
>>> That may not get the problem. Most tire places use a "static balance."
>>> system.
>>
>> < Which region(s) are you basing this data on? Static balancing would
>> < yield a satisfactory result for most people most of the time, but what
>> < reputable shop relies on this method anymore?
>>
>> Static balance only examine ONE exis of wheel balance and trueness.
>> Granted most GOOD shops use dynamic balance today. Ever been in a
>> Wal-Mart tire shop? K-Mart?
> The Wal-Mart and K-Mart shops here in the Midwest all use dynamic
> balancers.
In many parts of the country they HAVE them but do not always USE them.
The WHEEL bearings on the spindle or the inner ones near the CV?
No duhh, BUT with a chronic problem you would expect either severe
discoloration OR grooves. Again you use a MIC to see if the rotor is in
spec. Then go from there. I NEVER said a bad brake hose was impossible, I
just said that IT isn't where *I* would start. There are lots of FREE things
you can check with an eyeball.
Ray O
>
>
>> The Wal-Mart and K-Mart shops here in the Midwest all use dynamic
>> balancers.
>
> In many parts of the country they HAVE them but do not always USE them.
I'll have to take your word for it since I don't go to Wal-Mart or K-Mart
for tires.
<snipped>
>> The wheel bearings on the OP's Corolla are sealed and are not
>> repack-able.
>
> The WHEEL bearings on the spindle or the inner ones near the CV?
>
As I said, the WHEEL bearings are sealed.
krp
"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
>>> The Wal-Mart and K-Mart shops here in the Midwest all use dynamic
>>> balancers.
>>
>> In many parts of the country they HAVE them but do not always USE
>> them.
>
> I'll have to take your word for it since I don't go to Wal-Mart or K-Mart
> for tires.
Neither do I, but I know people who have. Had a neighbor who worked for
Wal Mart - did a brake job - got Wal Mart sued big time.
jonb...@yahoo.com
> brakes.
Ray, I had them do this. The problem still persists. Could it be a
brake booster problem?
jonb...@yahoo.com
> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
> 1. Bent wheel.
The tire shop showed me how the wheels turn on a machine. There is a
small bit of run-out. But it was slight. Also, wouldn't run out
cause a constant vibration?
> 2. Bad wheel balance.
The rebalanced when they put new tires on under waranty. The
vibration still intermitently.
> 3. Bad bearing.
My mechanic says that when a bearing is shot, you can wobble the wheel
when it is on the lift by pulling on it. The wheel didn't exhibit
this behavior.
> 4. Bad rotor or worn spindle.
Rotors are 3k old. Never turned before.
> 5. Suspension parts. (there are several high failure parts on thecorolla)
Mechanic says he checked thoroughly through all of them...
jonb...@yahoo.com
> the tire store would likely miss that?
Well, the rotor was bluing, which is why i replaced them about 1000
miles ago. But, I think that is the symptom and not the disease.
What can be causing the dragging? could a bad booster cause it?
jim
Yes it could if the problem is on both sides. If I recall you said one
wheel is getting hot the other isn't. that seems to make it pretty clear
that the brakes are dragging on that one side. It is unlikely that the
wheel bearing is the cause of the hot wheel after 5k miles a bearing
getting hot would be seized by now. So something is wrong with the brakes
on that side. Maybe time to have another mechanic look at it.
-jim
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jonb...@yahoo.com
> some stuff...
Well, at one point like the rotors were bluing like 1000 miles ago and
I replaced them. The hoses were replaced 3 days ago, this did not fix
it either. The calipers are 3k old. Could it be the brake booster
since the problem is intermitten and only shows up once in a while?
Also, could the vibration be caused by the hot wheel overheating the
tire? How warped would a wheel have to be to cause this? There is
only vibration when the brakes are dragging. The other day i drove to
the airport (60 miles with no traffic at 3AM) and it only did it once
for 10 miles. I did not have to use my brakes at all for the entire
highway portion of the trip, but it still started to drag and then
vibrate half way into the trip. Please notice that i said it drags
THEN vibrates. You can feel that you need more gas pedal effort to
move the car and then the vibration starts gradually shortly
thereafter and builds up in intensity. Does this extra info help you?
jonb...@yahoo.com
> The problem I've seen on some old brake hoses is not hardening, but a
> deterioration of the lining. The lining flakes off and blocks the line so
> when the pedal is released, residual pressure keeps the caliper piston from
> releasing.
I replaced the brake hoses. Problem still persists. But please
notice that in my story about my trip to the airport, I did not use my
brakes for like 30 miles of hte trip since there was no traffic on the
highway at 3AM. But, at one point, without using my brakes at all,
the problem started. It starts as you notice more gas pedal effort
needed to move the car (dragging), then the vibration starts gradually
and builds up in intensity. I can only assume this might be caused by
the wheel getting hotter and hotter and eventually heating up the
tire.... does this make sense? could it be a brake booster problem?
-Jon
jonb...@yahoo.com
> Here is what strikes me. He just got 4 new tires. It is hitting only ONE
> side of the car. (Right front). It was something that a worker hot to MAKE
> sales would likely not see. Suggest that obvious BRAKE things hanging pads
> and blued rotors weren't present. So it is a process of elimination. If I
> assume even marginal competence of the tire store folks - something they'd
> NOT necessarily pick up on would be a suspension part or CV joint.
Good point. But wouldn't the bad CV likely make a clicking sound
during turns and cause vibration nearly always on the highway?
jonb...@yahoo.com
> I have a 1993ToyotaCorollawith 265k miles on it. There is a
> vibration that has the following symptoms:
<snip>
Well, I did replace the calipers 3k ago. Could it be that the
passenger-front one is bad? They were rebuilds after all... and that
is the side that is heating up...
Jeff
Yes, that is certainly a possibility. If you did something to the
brakes, then things started heating up, then chances are something that
you did to the brakes caused the problem.
Jeff
jonb...@yahoo.com
That's going to be my next test. The mechanic will replace that
caliper under warranty. Then I'll see if the problem persists. that
will be Thursday.
N8N
If it's only one wheel, I'd strongly suspect the hose. Second choice
would be frozen up mounting hardware causing a single piston caliper
not to float freely. A booster, master cylinder, or pushrod
adjustment issue would show up on at least two if not all four wheels.
nate
N8N
Hmm. disregard my last post then. Did you thoroughly clean the
mounting hardware (esp. sliders) when you replaced the calipers?
Assuming, of course, that these are single piston type with sliders.
Do you have any noticeable play in that wheel bearing? I can't see
how that would cause the brakes to drag/rotor to overheat, but it
seems like you've covered the likely culprits already.
nate
Mike
<jonb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bf703760-8483-449f...@u36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 18, 3:48 am, " krp" <krp24...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
>
>> 1. Bent wheel.
> The tire shop showed me how the wheels turn on a machine. There is a
> small bit of run-out. But it was slight. Also, wouldn't run out
> cause a constant vibration?
Yes
>
>> 2. Bad wheel balance.
> The rebalanced when they put new tires on under waranty. The
> vibration still intermitently.
>
>> 3. Bad bearing.
> My mechanic says that when a bearing is shot, you can wobble the wheel
> when it is on the lift by pulling on it. The wheel didn't exhibit
> this behavior.
A bad bearing will not always have play in it but it should be noisy. I have
never seen a bad bearing cause a vibration.
>
>> 4. Bad rotor or worn spindle.
> Rotors are 3k old. Never turned before.
Even thought the rotor is fairly new if it was warped from the brakes being
applied it needs to be machined or possibly even replaced.
Jeff Strickland
nate
<JS>
I agree with N8. Since the claim is that only one corner is affected, I'd go
with a failure that is local to only that corner, not a failure that leads
to all four corners.
Having said that, the rear brakes are drum type, and if they were
maladjusted (too loose), then they could be held partially activated and you
would never know. This would tend to suggest the master cylinder. The linked
rear brake would be the diagonal corner, by the way.
I'd be looking at the local problems though before I looked at systemic
problems.
</JS>
Mike
<jonb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7c60f0bb-002b-4ef2...@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
You stated that it is only one front wheel that is getting hot so it would
have to be the caliper, pads, brake hose or steel line going to that
particular wheel.
could a bad booster cause it?
No. A bad booster would affect all wheels. When a booster fails it will
generally make the brake pedal hard to depress.
N8N
> "N8N" <njna...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Good point, but that would also imply that the self-adjusting hardware
was frozen up on at least one rear wheel. Not impossible, but would
imply two simultaneous problems. That said, it might not be a bad
idea to check anyway, since the OP has apparently tried all the
obvious stuff.
nate
Jeff Strickland
"Mike" <m...@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:kP2Pj.1921$Cn4...@news02.roc.ny...
The Booster would not give the symptoms. The Master Cylinder _might_ (but
very doubtful) give the symptom because the rear brake is a drum, and one
would not notice it being bound if it was not adjusted well. And, even if it
was adjusted well, the springs pulling the shoes open could overpower the
pressure tryuing to close them, while the front disc brakes are held against
the rotor causing heat build up and rapid pad wear at the same time.
Mike
<jonb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3d3a77e7-3946-4eac...@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 19, 7:43 am, " krp" <krp24...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> some stuff...
>
> Well, at one point like the rotors were bluing like 1000 miles ago and
> I replaced them. The hoses were replaced 3 days ago, this did not fix
> it either. The calipers are 3k old. Could it be the brake booster
> since the problem is intermitten and only shows up once in a while?
No
>
> Also, could the vibration be caused by the hot wheel overheating the
> tire?
No
How warped would a wheel have to be to cause this?
Extremely warped.
There is
> only vibration when the brakes are dragging.
Then your problem is with the brakes.
The other day i drove to
> the airport (60 miles with no traffic at 3AM) and it only did it once
> for 10 miles. I did not have to use my brakes at all for the entire
> highway portion of the trip, but it still started to drag and then
> vibrate half way into the trip. Please notice that i said it drags
> THEN vibrates.
Right, the brakes drag causing the rotor to get hot and warp which causes
the vibration.
You can feel that you need more gas pedal effort to
> move the car and then the vibration starts gradually shortly
> thereafter and builds up in intensity. Does this extra info help you?
>
Not really, you have covered this at least a half dozen times already.
Mike
<jonb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a49f4576-d8a5-46b9...@p25g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
Bad point. A bad CV joint WOULD NOT cause the brakes to lock up.
Mike
<jonb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2e6fdb5c-967f-43f1...@k1g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
Lets start from the begining. If I understand correctly you replaced the
front calipers first. Why ? Were the brakes acting up before you replaced the
calipers. You then replaced the brake hoses and this did not correct the
problem. The right front brake is the one getting hot, correct ? Are you
doing the work or are you taking it to a shop ?
Mike
"Jeff Strickland" <cr...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:WL2Pj.6319$pH4.2470@trnddc06...
>
> "N8N" <njn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:d0676d9d-a646-4780...@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 21, 10:29 am, jonb55...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Apr 19, 7:52 am, " krp" <krp24...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> > And so the rotor will be a pretty MIDNIGHT BLUE. Do you think the guys in
>> > the tire store would likely miss that?
>>
>> Well, the rotor was bluing, which is why i replaced them about 1000
>> miles ago. But, I think that is the symptom and not the disease.
>> What can be causing the dragging? could a bad booster cause it?
>
> If it's only one wheel, I'd strongly suspect the hose.
Whcih was already replaced and had no affect on the problem.
Second choice
> would be frozen up mounting hardware causing a single piston caliper
> not to float freely.
Or two problems combined. It is possible that the left front caliper is
seized up AND the master cylinder pushrod misadjusted. This would put all the
pressure on the right front caliper.
A booster, master cylinder, or pushrod
> adjustment issue would show up on at least two if not all four wheels.
>
> nate
>
> <JS>
> I agree with N8. Since the claim is that only one corner is affected, I'd go
> with a failure that is local to only that corner, not a failure that leads
> to all four corners.
Both fronts should apply together so it is possible that one front brake IS
NOT applying.
>
> Having said that, the rear brakes are drum type, and if they were
> maladjusted (too loose), then they could be held partially activated and you
> would never know. This would tend to suggest the master cylinder. The linked
> rear brake would be the diagonal corner, by the way.
I don't believe Toyota uses a diagonal braking system.
Jeff Strickland
>>
>> <JS>
>> I agree with N8. Since the claim is that only one corner is affected, I'd
>> go with a failure that is local to only that corner, not a failure that
>> leads to all four corners.
>
> Both fronts should apply together so it is possible that one front brake
> IS NOT applying.
>
That would create a pull to the side that is applying when the brakes were
applied. If the brakes were being applied unevenly, then a pull would occur.
If the brakes were applied evenly but released unevenly, then the result
would be rapid wear and high heat on the side that was dragging.
>>
>> Having said that, the rear brakes are drum type, and if they were
>> maladjusted (too loose), then they could be held partially activated and
>> you would never know. This would tend to suggest the master cylinder. The
>> linked rear brake would be the diagonal corner, by the way.
>
> I don't believe Toyota uses a diagonal braking system.
>
>
I don't know that they do or not. I suspect they do. Diagonal braking is a
safety thing. The question is not if Toyota uses it, but rather if anybody
uses it.
Either way, I'd be looking at local issues relative to the one corner before
I'd be looking to systemic issues.
jonb...@yahoo.com
> Lets start from the begining. If I understand correctly you replaced the
> front calipers first. Why ? Were the brakes acting up before you replaced the
> calipers. You then replaced the brake hoses and this did not correct the
> problem. The right front brake is the one getting hot, correct ? Are you
> doing the work or are you taking it to a shop ?
I replaced the calipers because the brakes felt "soft" and i was not
getting good stopping power. The replacement cured it. But shortly
thereafter this problem occured. And I was not sure of the cause
because i replaced the calipers and tires at about the same time. So
after the vibration started, i brought it to my mechanic who found
that the rotor or rotors were blued and replaced them. Obviously he
cured the symptom and not the disease at this point. Then i replaced
the tires under waranty because i thought they were defective. After
this, i noticed taht one wheel was getting hotter than the other. I
then replaced the brake hoses on both sides. This still did nothing.
Now I am going to try the caliper since it may have been a defective
one.
jim
So now with the complete picture it looks like the cause is the new caliper. You may
need to replace that rotor again if that got fried again.
Steve B.
>I replaced the calipers because the brakes felt "soft" and i was not
>getting good stopping power. The replacement cured it. But shortly
>thereafter this problem occured. And I was not sure of the cause
>because i replaced the calipers and tires at about the same time. So
>after the vibration started, i brought it to my mechanic who found
>that the rotor or rotors were blued and replaced them. Obviously he
>cured the symptom and not the disease at this point. Then i replaced
>the tires under waranty because i thought they were defective. After
>this, i noticed taht one wheel was getting hotter than the other. I
>then replaced the brake hoses on both sides. This still did nothing.
>Now I am going to try the caliper since it may have been a defective
>one.
Be aware that the rotor on the side that is having problem is most
likely ruined again. I wouldn't replace it until the problem has been
resolved, but with all this heat that rotor is most likely warped
again.
It could be that the brakes were having dragging problems from the
time they were fixed but you didn't notice until the rotor finally
warped.
Steve B.
Ray O
<jonb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1e46810a-a0b3-4eb7...@q1g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
I read through most of the posts before responding.
It is very unlikely that a master cylinder is causing the problem, and it is
unlikely that a misadjusted push rod is causing the problem unless someone
messed with the master cylinder or pushrod.
It is possible, but not likely that a bad wheel bearing is causing the
problem. Wheel bearings generally make a lot of noise before getting bad
enough to actually cause a problem.
A wheel or tire that is out of round either laterally or radially will cause
a vibration, but not likely that the vibration will come and go and it will
not make the wheel hot to the touch or bind the brakes so that is not high
on my list.
A bad CV joint will make noise, cause pulling, or fling grease all over the
undercarriage before it causes an intermittent vibration and will not make
the wheel hot to the touch or bind the brakes.
If replacing the calipers did not change the problem, I would have guessed a
bad brake hose.
I read that you are replacing the front calipers, make sure that the slides
are free and coated with disc brake grease or anti-seize.
Where are you located?
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
krp
>> Replace both front brake hoses, replace the brake fluid, and bleed the
>> brakes.
> Ray, I had them do this. The problem still persists. Could it be a
> brake booster problem?
Our resident Toyota resident lashed out at me for saying that was the
LEAST likely culprit. Because this is coming in snippets as opposed to a
full story, I have to work with SOME assumptions. Among them being that with
new tires that the rotors did NOT appear discolored or gouged, there was
nothing apparent about the pads. Perhaps giving credit where it isn't due -
that a competent dynamic balance was done. Next stage would be to have the
rotors MIC'd just to be sure they are round in both planes. Look at the
spindle closely. If the spindle is clean, have somebody check out the CV
joint and shaft.
krp
<jonb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bf703760-8483-449f...@u36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> 1. Bent wheel.
> The tire shop showed me how the wheels turn on a machine. There is a
> small bit of run-out. But it was slight. Also, wouldn't run out
> cause a constant vibration?
No not necessarily. What size wheels are on it? The smaller the more
even a slight out of round can act up. Usually consistant at certain speeds.
A 14" rim is more sensitive than a 16.
>> 2. Bad wheel balance.
> The rebalanced when they put new tires on under waranty. The
> vibration still intermitently.
I'd look at the CV and suspension parts.
>> 3. Bad bearing.
> My mechanic says that when a bearing is shot, you can wobble the wheel
> when it is on the lift by pulling on it. The wheel didn't exhibit
> this behavior.
Yep that's mostly true.
>> 4. Bad rotor or worn spindle.
> Rotors are 3k old. Never turned before.
Okay - we're getting back to the CV again.
>> 5. Suspension parts. (there are several high failure parts on thecorolla)
> Mechanic says he checked thoroughly through all of them...
Did he check the CV?
krp
<jonb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7c60f0bb-002b-4ef2...@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 19, 7:52 am, " krp" <krp24...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> And so the rotor will be a pretty MIDNIGHT BLUE. Do you think the guys
>> in
>> the tire store would likely miss that?
>
> Well, the rotor was bluing, which is why i replaced them about 1000
> miles ago. But, I think that is the symptom and not the disease.
> What can be causing the dragging? could a bad booster cause it?
Did you replace the calipers? Check the pistons for pitting? Sometimes
an improperly installed o-ring on the caliper pistons can cause intermittent
problems.
krp
"N8N" <njn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d0676d9d-a646-4780...@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
He checked the hose. That's not it.
krp
> news:d0676d9d-a646-4780...@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 21, 10:29 am, jonb55...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Apr 19, 7:52 am, " krp" <krp24...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> > And so the rotor will be a pretty MIDNIGHT BLUE. Do you think the guys
>> > in
>> > the tire store would likely miss that?
>>
>> Well, the rotor was bluing, which is why i replaced them about 1000
>> miles ago. But, I think that is the symptom and not the disease.
>> What can be causing the dragging? could a bad booster cause it?
>
> If it's only one wheel, I'd strongly suspect the hose. Second choice
> would be frozen up mounting hardware causing a single piston caliper
> not to float freely. A booster, master cylinder, or pushrod
> adjustment issue would show up on at least two if not all four wheels.
>
> nate
>
> <JS>
> I agree with N8. Since the claim is that only one corner is affected, I'd
> go with a failure that is local to only that corner, not a failure that
> leads to all four corners.
Did you note he checked that?
krp
======
Did you see the part where he said he REPLACED the hoses?
krp
"jim" <"sjedgingN0sp"@m...@mwt.net> wrote in message
news:1208787825_340@isp.n...
>> > Replace both front brake hoses, replace the brake fluid, and bleed the
>> > brakes.
>>
>> Ray, I had them do this. The problem still persists. Could it be a
>> brake booster problem?
>
> wheel is getting hot the other isn't. that seems to make it pretty clear
> that the brakes are dragging on that one side. It is unlikely that the
> wheel bearing is the cause of the hot wheel after 5k miles a bearing
> getting hot would be seized by now. So something is wrong with the brakes
> on that side. Maybe time to have another mechanic look at it.
From the description it COULD be the caliper, BUT I would look at the CV
joint. A bad CV could cause the wheel to build heat. Again it is what is
most likely. At this point I'd pull the caliper apart first. Look for
contaminants especially by the pistons. You may wish to put kits in both
calipers. Make sure it is BALANCED. There is also - I THINK - not being a
Toyota expert - a proportioning valve somewhere right/left. If the left
side is not doing its job - the right works double time.
So you can't ignore the other side. Could be that the left caliper isn't
working at all or poorly.
krp
<jonb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> On Apr 19, 7:43 am, " krp" <krp24...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> some stuff...
>
> Well, at one point like the rotors were bluing like 1000 miles ago and
> I replaced them. The hoses were replaced 3 days ago, this did not fix
> it either. The calipers are 3k old. Could it be the brake booster
> since the problem is intermitten and only shows up once in a while?
>
> only vibration when the brakes are dragging. The other day i drove to
> the airport (60 miles with no traffic at 3AM) and it only did it once
> for 10 miles. I did not have to use my brakes at all for the entire
> highway portion of the trip, but it still started to drag and then
> vibrate half way into the trip. Please notice that i said it drags
> move the car and then the vibration starts gradually shortly
> thereafter and builds up in intensity. Does this extra info help you?
It could be the proportioning valve it could be the master cylinder, and it
still can be a CV joint. It is also possible that the new caliper was
rebuilt wrong.
krp
<jonb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a49f4576-d8a5-46b9...@p25g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
>> Here is what strikes me. He just got 4 new tires. It is hitting only
>> ONE
>> side of the car. (Right front). It was something that a worker hot to
>> MAKE
>> sales would likely not see. Suggest that obvious BRAKE things hanging
>> pads
>> and blued rotors weren't present. So it is a process of elimination. If I
>> assume even marginal competence of the tire store folks - something
>> they'd
>> NOT necessarily pick up on would be a suspension part or CV joint.
>
> Good point. But wouldn't the bad CV likely make a clicking sound
> during turns and cause vibration nearly always on the highway?
On older American cars yes. The Japanese have had much better CV joints
than American makes especially 20 years ago. I'd look awfully hard at the
LEFT caliper. Something tells me it isn't working right, or your master
cylinder is not well. It seems like we are chasing a phantom.
Here is something to consider. You have confined your investigation to
the right wheel. I think you need to look at the other side as well. There
is a proportioning valve there somewhere. I don't know where it is on the
Corolla. It can be bad. Sometimes you need to bleed the brakes several
times. It can be contaminants, pesky air bubbles that hide and take several
tries to get rid of.
Here is a problem with older cars. They get the laying on of hands all
over the place. Some folks who know what they are doing, and sometimes
little Billy Shafto at his daddy's lube place. Billy may NOT know the
difference between radiator coolant and brake fluid. All he knows is they
both go in a car somewhere, so what difference does it make? Sometimes it is
carelessness. Some quick lube places use illegals. So - over 15 years who
know who all has had their hands on your car? Shadetree mechanics. This
isn't easy because it can be so many things. Say a BADLY rebuilt caliper, or
two of them. I was in the parts business and we bought REBUILT calipers.
You'd be surprised how many were BAD. I'd say we returned at least 20% of
them. Same with other rebuilt parts. I am trying to think of any rebuilts we
didn't have returns on. On calipers completely missing o-rings, wrong size
o-rings, twisted o-rings. Badly pitted pistons.
So you never know what it really is till you find it, and then you tell
yourself THERE is where you should have started. UH HUH! Often you are
chasing the problem. Put one new part in and another older one fails. You
think it's the same problem but it is just transferring down the line.
Still, for the fun of it, replace the bearings.
krp
I don't think he's saying the brake are locking up exactly. He can look
at TIRE WEAR. He said he could feel some resistance, a flaky CV joint would
dissipate horsepower. The point is that CV joints can fail in several ways,
not necessarily making loud noises.
krp
<jonb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> On Apr 8, 12:21 pm, jonb55...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> I have a 1993ToyotaCorollawith 265k miles on it. There is a
>> vibration that has the following symptoms:
> <snip>
>
> Well, I did replace the calipers 3k ago. Could it be that the
> passenger-front one is bad? They were rebuilds after all... and that
> is the side that is heating up...
Just as likely the driver's side is bad, or BOTH.
krp
<jonb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c181e880-272c-44b2...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
BINGO! Replace BOTH calipers!
N8N
> "N8N" <njna...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Plonk, Stop being a douche.
jonb...@yahoo.com
> BINGO! Replace BOTH calipers!
KRP, I don't know if replacing both is a good idea. But hte strange
part about all this is that I can be driving along just fine, with no
drag. Then it will start to drag progressively and get progressively
worse. You will notice more and more gas pedal effort needed to move
the car. At its worse, the car will not move forward from a stop at
idle. But the funny part is, if only one side was locking, wouldn't
the car pull to one side? It is not pulling to one side however. But
only one wheel is heating up.... strange eh?
jonb...@yahoo.com
> Did he check the CV?
KRP, I will have him double check that CV on that side on thursday
when i bring it in. Thanks :-)
Mike Romain
I sure would just go and jack up that one wheel and give it a really
good shake to verify you don't have a blown wheel bearing.
The last time I blew a wheel bearing I also changed a lot of brake parts
trying to fix the 'soft' pedal with no luck.
The bearing was a flat one that didn't show symptoms like a tapered
bearing until it was about terminal.
Then the brake started to drag and 'change' when I pumped it like I
stated. I finally figured out it was the bearing.
My wheel would track fine after braking for a while from the gyroscope
effect, but finally got bad enough to nail down. Well the corner of the
caliper finally scored the rotor making it very evident what was up.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
jonb...@yahoo.com
> I have a 1993ToyotaCorollawith 265k miles on it. There is a
> vibration that has the following symptoms:
<snip>
Thank you to everyone that has helped me thus far. These symptoms
aren't new... but just better described than previously. Please
review:
1. Brake drags occasionally not all the time and the dragging can
start without the use of the brake pedal (once i was driving on an
empty highway at 3AM for 30 miles, and it just started dragging).
2. once the drag starts, it gets progressively worse. I'm not sure if
the heat causes it to lock up more, or if it just locks up more and
causes more heat (Chicken or Egg?) But you can feel that more and
more gas pedal effort is needed.
3. at its worse, there is so much drag that the car will not idle
forward from a stop.
4. drags on local roads OR highways... but on the highway there is
enough heat to cause the tire to overheat and vibrate. On local roads
this much heat is not built up, but the right front wheel is
noticeably hotter. The left one is a normal temperature, although it
is warmer than the rear. But i would expect this since the fronts do
most of the braking. The drums apply less stopping power, correct?
5. things replaced thus far: new tires, new rotors, new brake hoses,
system was bled and all new brake fluid was put in. None of these
have solved it.
Any further insights would be helpful. If any of you guys live in
southeastern mass let me know. Maybe you can take a look in
person... thanks again for your help thus far.
-jon
HLS
<jonb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8f48eb28-2f64-4520...@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 8, 12:21 pm, jonb55...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> I have a 1993ToyotaCorollawith 265k miles on it. There is a
>> vibration that has the following symptoms:
> <snip>
>
> Thank you to everyone that has helped me thus far. These symptoms
> aren't new... but just better described than previously. Please
> review:
> 1. Brake drags occasionally not all the time and the dragging can
> start without the use of the brake pedal (once i was driving on an
> empty highway at 3AM for 30 miles, and it just started dragging).
Could it be that one of your brakelines is near a heat source, and that the
heat
is causing the fluid to expand and activate on of the front calipers, and
the
opposing rear caliper or drum? (You might never notice the rear brake
if it were a maladjusted drum or suchlike)
Maybe a shield is missing near the exhaust or something like that?
Just trying to think outside the box a bit.
E Meyer
On 4/21/08 9:32 PM, in article iaednQy4Q-kD0pDV...@comcast.com,
"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
I will add one additional possibility that I personally experienced on an
Acura TL. A bad upper ball joint caused ALL the symptoms reported here on
that car - hot wheel, apparent warping of the rotor, chattering brakes, all
of it.
krp
Back at ya!
krp
<jonb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2567dd5a-ccd0-42b8...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Here is my point. You have warranty on both calipers. If one is bad
both can be. But beside that we don't KNOW which one is bad. It COULD be
either. If you want to chase a rabbit all over the field that's your choice.
You could replace the right caliper and find you still have the problem.
Then the left and find a problem again. The brakes are engineered to work
TOGETHER. In balance. You want them as much the same as is possible. You
see, I don't know FOR SURE where the problem is. None of us do yet till we
find it. I just think it is unwise to replace only one caliper. It can be
(not that it IS) that it culprit is the LEFT caliper, not working at all or
right, making the right assume more of the load. Granted the car should pull
like hell if that were the case, but cars are funny and they don't always do
what you expect. If they did, all repairs would be easy and it would in and
out of shops in 5 minutes.
I still think the problem could be in several places. I am not convinced
it can't be any of the bearings. Or the spindle. Or the CV joint. What you
have here is like that damn gopher game like at Chucky Cheese. You knot
they stick their heads up and you whack them with a padded mallet? Then they
pop up somewhere else.
I can't look at the wheel, at the spindle, rotors, etc. I can't take a mic
to them. All we can do here is keep GUESSING till you find it. there are
many things YOU can check. Get the wheels off the ground and see if they
have any play in either side. Look at the spindles. Roll the tires to see if
you hear any sound. Like a scraping sound. Try to bleed the brakes again and
manually ADJUST them. Or have the mechanic do that.
krp
<jonb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9fdad8f0-7ab2-4140...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
It's only a GUESS. Check it for play. They don't always leak.
krp
"Mike Romain" <rom...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:480df745$0$17362$9a6e...@unlimited.newshosting.com...
> jonb...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Apr 21, 12:39 pm, "Mike" <m...@localnet.com> wrote:
>>> Lets start from the begining. If I understand correctly you replaced
>>> the
>>> front calipers first. Why ? Were the brakes acting up before you
>>> replaced the
>>> calipers. You then replaced the brake hoses and this did not correct the
>>> problem. The right front brake is the one getting hot, correct ? Are
>>> you
>>> doing the work or are you taking it to a shop ?
>>
>> I replaced the calipers because the brakes felt "soft" and i was not
>> getting good stopping power. The replacement cured it. But shortly
>> thereafter this problem occured. And I was not sure of the cause
>> because i replaced the calipers and tires at about the same time. So
>> after the vibration started, i brought it to my mechanic who found
>> that the rotor or rotors were blued and replaced them. Obviously he
>> cured the symptom and not the disease at this point. Then i replaced
>> the tires under waranty because i thought they were defective. After
>> this, i noticed taht one wheel was getting hotter than the other. I
>> then replaced the brake hoses on both sides. This still did nothing.
>> Now I am going to try the caliper since it may have been a defective
>> one.
>
> I sure would just go and jack up that one wheel and give it a really good
> shake to verify you don't have a blown wheel bearing.
Same thing I suggested, but have been called a "douche" for suggesting it.
> The last time I blew a wheel bearing I also changed a lot of brake parts
> trying to fix the 'soft' pedal with no luck.
> The bearing was a flat one that didn't show symptoms like a tapered
> bearing until it was about terminal.
Indeed.
> Then the brake started to drag and 'change' when I pumped it like I
> stated. I finally figured out it was the bearing.
>
> My wheel would track fine after braking for a while from the gyroscope
> effect, but finally got bad enough to nail down. Well the corner of the
> caliper finally scored the rotor making it very evident what was up.
It would be nice IF cars always acted predictably.
krp
"E Meyer" <epme...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:C4339DC7.2FB3B%epme...@msn.com...
You know, IF a wheel threw a weight off it could do the same thing.
krp
"HLS" <nos...@nospam.nix> wrote in message
news:naoPj.23$LQ...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...
>>> I have a 1993ToyotaCorollawith 265k miles on it. There is a
>>> vibration that has the following symptoms:
>> <snip>
>>
>> Thank you to everyone that has helped me thus far. These symptoms
>> aren't new... but just better described than previously. Please
>> review:
>> 1. Brake drags occasionally not all the time and the dragging can
>> start without the use of the brake pedal (once i was driving on an
>> empty highway at 3AM for 30 miles, and it just started dragging).
>
> Could it be that one of your brakelines is near a heat source, and that
> the heat
> is causing the fluid to expand and activate on of the front calipers, and
> the
> opposing rear caliper or drum? (You might never notice the rear brake
> if it were a maladjusted drum or suchlike)
>
> Maybe a shield is missing near the exhaust or something like that?
>
> Just trying to think outside the box a bit.
Good suggestion.
E Meyer
On 4/22/08 9:56 PM, in article fzxPj.5431$Ux4.4916@trnddc07, "krp"
<krp2...@verizon.net> wrote:
Throwing a weight causes a constant vibration. This was different and was
confirmed to be the ball joint on the TL.
Ray O
<jonb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8f48eb28-2f64-4520...@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
I used to live in Plymouth County...
Check the RF wheel bearings.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
krp
Usually throwing a weight will cause vibration at certain speeds. Depends on
the size of the wheel weight. Big ones act more harshly when missing than
small ones. Remember he said the wheel DOES have a small wobble to it. Maybe
move a rear wheel up front. Try that for a couple days.
vlwill2
>
> I have a 1993 Toyota Corolla with 265k miles on it. There is a
> vibration that has the following symptoms:
> - it starts gradually and increases in severity, then eventually fades
> away and disappears within 10 miles.
> - it happens only occasionally, seemingly randomly, and when it does
> happen it happens at all speeds, not just a certain speed
> - it appears to come from the front of the vehicle.
> - you can feel it in the steering wheel AND the brake pedal
> - it does not happen on local roads or at local roads speed
> - when the vibration starts, you must bring the car to a complete stop
> to get rid of it. If you only slow down, to local road speeds
> (30-40mph) and then speed up again, it will still be present. The car
> must come to a complete stop in order to proceed without a vibration
> - it happens in the cold and warmish weather (here in boston is in the
> 40s and 50s now. it happens in 30s, 40s or 50s)
> - i put in brand new front rotors and this did not cure it.
>
> Please help. Email me with any advice that you can. Thanks!
>
> -Jon
Jon, I have this exact same problem with my 2009 corolla with 3000
miles on it. The dealer thinks im crazy because I take it in and they
can not dupilcate the problem. As with your problem, mine is on the
highway, at highway speed, not in the city etc.... I have had my tires
balanced and my alignment checked and rechecked to no avail. If you
figure something out on this post it. Its good to know that im not
crazy
E Meyer
<krp2...@verizon.net> wrote:
I suggested rotating the wheels front to back a long time ago (and was
apparently ignored). I think this thread has rehashed all the possibilities
two or three times now.
Mike
" krp" <krp2...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:AzHPj.3034$mw4.509@trnddc04...
Would a missing wheel weight also cause the brakes to apply and make the
vehicle slow down ??? That's what he stated is also happening.
Bruce L. Bergman
Note that when the mechanic test-drives your car they have to drive
conservatively and sedately - because if they get in an accident or
break something on the car they'll get fired. One dealership had an
insurance policy where they aren't allowed to take a customer car on
the freeway.
You really need the mechanic to get in the passenger seat and YOU
drive THEM on the test drive, you know how and where to reproduce the
problem much better than they would - or could.
I reported a huge delay in the 2-3 upshift with a slam as third
engaged that threatened to snap an axle or U-joint, and twice got the
"we took it for a test drive and nothing's wrong." Brand new van.
Third time, I took the mechanic out for the test drive and
"reproduced the problem dynamically" on the freeway at 'medium'
intensity. Reminded him I'd been babying it by feathering the
throttle on upshifts for 5,000 miles, and asked if he wanted me to go
full throttle and break it - Got a brand new transmission.
--<< Bruce >>--