Honda del Sol

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dpr...@jpl.nasa.gov

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Sep 12, 1994, 11:07:17 AM9/12/94
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I am considering the purchase of a New 1994 Honda
del Sol, but have read some consumer publications
that say the top leaks and frame is not rigid enough,
causing noise.

Can anyone give me there experiences with the car,
and how far up from invoice price were they able
to get the dealer to bargain to.

Thanks

dpr...@jpl.nasa.gov

elc/slc

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Sep 12, 1994, 8:10:02 PM9/12/94
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In <1994Sep12.1...@llyene.jpl.nasa.gov> dpr...@jpl.nasa.gov writes:

I was dead set to buy the Del Sol VTEC for a while, but the articles
in several magazines discouraged me. I drove one and as we pulled out
of the dealer lot, I heard a groan from the body flexing! Also, not
being used to the car I reved it up a little, maybe 4K RPM, and it was
loud. It seemed to pull well at low RPM, 20 - 25MPH in 4th gear.
I have to admit that I didnt give it a fair run down though, as I only
drove a few blocks. I have decided not to buy based upon the body
flex and the noise plus maintenence issues - ie valve adjustments and
timing belt replacement. I still like the body style and the very compact
size. But, fuel economy and price are also discouraging. Best price
that I found on the VTEC was $16.3K plus $800 for air and $500 for
spoiler. Oh, one last thing. The side impact safety is very poor.
Think about it - the only structure holding the front of the car to the back
is the floor pan. The doors and the top contribute very little structural
rigidity. My final impression is that this is a toy! If you don't believe
that just look under the hood. I have seen bigger motorcycle batteries and
look at the radiator. It takes up exactly half of the grill opening
and there is room along side of it for the air cond. radiator.
Of course I may be swayed by comparing it to the 2 Z Cars, which I have owned
and the '86 Vette which I drive now. That's my 2C.
--
MINERALOGICAL RESEARCH CO.
email minr...@ix.netcom.com
Phone (408)923-6800
FAX (408)926-6015

msf...@acfcluster.nyu.edu

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Sep 12, 1994, 5:16:08 PM9/12/94
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In article <1994Sep12.1...@llyene.jpl.nasa.gov>, dpr...@jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>
>Can anyone give me there experiences with the car,
>and how far up from invoice price were they able
>to get the dealer to bargain to.
>Thanks
>
>dpr...@jpl.nasa.gov

These cars have been selling quite poorly (gee, I wonder why) and you
can baragin like crazy on them. If I were you, I'd wait until the showroom was
full of new '95s, find a '94 on the lot and take no prisioners. One
dealer told me that they'll occasionally take _less_ than invoice, and you
can save quite a bit of money this way.

Good luck


Steve Sheldon

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Sep 15, 1994, 3:16:31 PM9/15/94
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In <1994Sep15....@claude.ma30.bull.com> bu...@claude.ma30.bull.com (Kenneth J. Buck) writes:

>minr...@ix.netcom.com (elc/slc) writes:
>>My final impression is that this is a toy! If you don't believe
>>that just look under the hood. I have seen bigger motorcycle batteries and
>>look at the radiator. It takes up exactly half of the grill opening
>>and there is room along side of it for the air cond. radiator.
>>Of course I may be swayed by comparing it to the 2 Z Cars, which I
>>have owned and the '86 Vette which I drive now. That's my 2C.

>in the interests of saving weight and cost, car manufacturers nowadays
>tend to make things "as big as they need to be, but not bigger".
>if that small radiator, battery, engine, etc. do the required job,
>who cares what they look like compared to car XYZ?

Actually Honda uses the same battery in the regular Civic's.

This was one of the things that turned me off on the Civic, as it did seem
like a little toy engine in there.

That battery might be just big enough to start the car in California. But
my concern is when it's -25 F the wind is blowing and the battery only has
enough charge to turn the engine over once...

No thanks, I'll keep my big old 700 cold cranking amp AC Delco battery, or
whatever over the three D cells in a box.


--
Steve Sheldon [These are my own opinions]
Iowa State University ICSS Resource Facility by day
she...@iastate.edu ProMap by night
BEEF! -- Cause the west wasn't won on salad.

pcga...@biivax.dp.beckman.com

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Sep 15, 1994, 6:32:26 PM9/15/94
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The articles bothered me, too, but I got a VTEC anyway. No flex problem with
mine or the other 3 I tried (or friend's 93). Maybe it _does_ depend on what
you're used to driving (CRX, 3rd in a series of Hondas), although I also
compared it to Miata. Bottom line:if you drive one and the flex doesn't
bother you, then it's not a problem. Ditto noise.
Doesn't leak (storms or weekly bath); Honda resolved that after '93 models.
Overpaid at inv=15350+500 profit+70 CA smog+350 dest.+800 A/C. I've heard
of better (esp. w/ current $750 factory-dealer rebate).
"Maint. issues"? Looks can deceive. With Honda I have always come out ahead
reliability/maint/repair-cost-wise. Averaging 30 m.p.g.
Side impact: At 4 mos., got hit & shoved sideways by a Ford F-250 cutting
into my (left) lane. I was amazed at how well it took the impact. Replaced
front qtr.panel, (curled *over* hood, so no damaged to that), pass. door
shell (rest of door OK), + incidentals, $1500. Handles fine (body is straight).
IMO, if you try it & like it (every car has trade-offs), buy it.

Steven Ritter

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Sep 16, 1994, 10:36:25 AM9/16/94
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Excerpts from netnews.rec.autos.misc: 15-Sep-94 Re: Honda del Sol by
Steve She...@iastate.ed
> That battery might be just big enough to start the car in California. But
> my concern is when it's -25 F the wind is blowing and the battery only has
> enough charge to turn the engine over once...
>

My del Sol started with no problem in -30 F last winter.

To answer the original question, I haven't had any problems with leaks,
but I don't think I'll ever get rid of the last of the squeaks and
rattles. Nothing's fallen off yet (at 21,000 miles).

The car handles much better than most people give it credit for and with
the top off and the windows down, I've always got a smile on my face.


Kenneth J. Buck

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Sep 15, 1994, 12:32:59 PM9/15/94
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minr...@ix.netcom.com (elc/slc) writes:
>I was dead set to buy the Del Sol VTEC for a while, but [...]
>I still like the body style and the very compact size. [...]

>The side impact safety is very poor.
>Think about it - the only structure holding the front of the car
>to the back is the floor pan. The doors and the top contribute very
>little structural rigidity.

well, you can't have your cake and eat it too - cars that are small
and cars that are convertibles (or close relatives) pay a price in
chassis rigidity and overall safety and you just have to decide if
you're willing to pay it or not.

>My final impression is that this is a toy! If you don't believe
>that just look under the hood. I have seen bigger motorcycle batteries and
>look at the radiator. It takes up exactly half of the grill opening
>and there is room along side of it for the air cond. radiator.
>Of course I may be swayed by comparing it to the 2 Z Cars, which I
>have owned and the '86 Vette which I drive now. That's my 2C.

in the interests of saving weight and cost, car manufacturers nowadays

bob wade

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Sep 19, 1994, 9:26:05 AM9/19/94
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In article <1994Sep15....@biivax.dp.beckman.com>
pcga...@biivax.dp.beckman.com writes:

> >>I am considering the purchase of a New 1994 Honda
> >>del Sol, but have read some consumer publications
> >>that say the top leaks and frame is not rigid enough,
> >>causing noise.
> >>
> >>Can anyone give me there experiences with the car,
> >>and how far up from invoice price were they able
> >>to get the dealer to bargain to.

> >>dpr...@jpl.nasa.gov

> > I was dead set to buy the Del Sol VTEC for a while, but the articles
> > in several magazines discouraged me. I drove one and as we pulled out
> > of the dealer lot, I heard a groan from the body flexing!

the VTEC DOHC i drove seemed tight. the regular vtec si SOHC seemed
less rigid.

chomp..


>> I have decided not to buy based upon the body
> > flex and the noise plus maintenence issues - ie valve adjustments and
> > timing belt replacement. I still like the body style and the very compact
> > size. But, fuel economy and price are also discouraging. Best price
> > that I found on the VTEC was $16.3K plus $800 for air and $500 for
> > spoiler. Oh, one last thing. The side impact safety is very poor.

yes price is high, but not for a 'convertible', which it is. as for
the maintenance issues, you can ignore honda's recommended gouge
intervals..i know several people with hondas that had valves done at
15k, then every 60k. and they both took timing belts to 90k before
changing them. one is now at 179k and will soon go back and have that
belt changed out.

chomp

> > that just look under the hood. I have seen bigger motorcycle batteries and
> > look at the radiator. It takes up exactly half of the grill opening
> > and there is room along side of it for the air cond. radiator.

i think most all honda's have that small weirdo battery...
as for the radiator, perhaps their whole cooling system is just
efficiently designed??

Nigel Campbell

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Sep 19, 1994, 3:08:17 PM9/19/94
to
dpr...@jpl.nasa.gov wrote:

I have a '94 Del Sol VTEC. I've put 3000 miles on it so far
and have no complaints. I've had no problems with the top
leaking (even when exposed to water under pressure : Car wash, hose).
I've also not found any problem with rigidity. It's obvious that
the frame will suffer from more flex than a hard-top car, but what
there is (very little) does not present a problem.
I'd suggest the VTEC (amazing performance from a 1.6) and the gas
mileage is pretty good considering the engine can pump out 160bhp
(about 30mpg for mixed driving).

I had AC and a spoiler fitted. If you're anywhere at all hot, go
for the AC... on days when you don't want to be exposed to the sun
you'll be happy you had it fitted.

If people want a really safe car in an accident, they should buy
a Volvo or something similar. There's no doubt that a small
convertible car will come off worse in an accident (and the
occupants), but that's your choice... Who wants to drive a Volvo?!
When compared to a Miata, I'm pretty sure they are in the same
league, although I'd think that the Del Sol will come out better
because of it's built in "roll bar"?...

Cheers,

Nigel.
_
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==_________--' \
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*************** __ ****************************************************
************* / / ************ Nigel Campbell: NARC Cupertino *
*********** / / ********* email: nig...@cup.hp.com *
********* / /___ ______ ******************** DISCLAIMER **************
******** / __ // __ / ****** This is not an official statement of *
******** / / / // /_/ / ****** The Hewlett-Packard Company. No *
********* /_/ /_// ____/ ******* warranty is expressed or implied. *
********** / / ********* The information included herein is *
************ / / *********** not to be construed as a commitment *
************* /_/ **************** on HP's part. *
**************************************

Patrick R Haikal

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Sep 20, 1994, 10:13:30 AM9/20/94
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In article <sheldon....@mystic.agron.iastate.edu>, she...@iastate.edu (Steve Sheldon) writes:

|> Actually Honda uses the same battery in the regular Civic's.
|>
|> This was one of the things that turned me off on the Civic, as it did seem
|>like a little toy engine in there.
|>
|> That battery might be just big enough to start the car in California. But
|>my concern is when it's -25 F the wind is blowing and the battery only has
|>enough charge to turn the engine over once...
|>
|> No thanks, I'll keep my big old 700 cold cranking amp AC Delco battery, or
|>whatever over the three D cells in a box.
|>
|>
|>--
|>Steve Sheldon [These are my own opinions]

Umm, in case you didn't notice... Honda uses DELCO batteries...
I left my lights on 3 times in my previous Civic (91), all three
times for 2-3+ hours, and it's still running strong.

That small radiator is funny though...:)

Pico

Steve Sheldon

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Sep 20, 1994, 11:31:10 AM9/20/94
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In <35mqma$p...@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> prha...@eos.ncsu.edu (Patrick R Haikal) writes:


>In article <sheldon....@mystic.agron.iastate.edu>, she...@iastate.edu (Steve Sheldon) writes:

>|> That battery might be just big enough to start the car in California. But
>|>my concern is when it's -25 F the wind is blowing and the battery only has
>|>enough charge to turn the engine over once...
>|>
>|> No thanks, I'll keep my big old 700 cold cranking amp AC Delco battery, or
>|>whatever over the three D cells in a box.

>Umm, in case you didn't notice... Honda uses DELCO batteries...


>I left my lights on 3 times in my previous Civic (91), all three
>times for 2-3+ hours, and it's still running strong.

Once again Pico, you ignore the obvious. I don't care if Honda can't build
batteries and has to buy them from AC Delco. Just how many cold cranking
amps do those things have?

Also in case you didn't notice, you seem to live in North Carolina. How
cold does it get down there? Maybe 40 degrees?

Try leaving your lights on for 3+ hours when it's 20 below not counting the
wind chill, and see if your car starts.

I'm just curious. I know it really concerned me when I saw that as before
this year I didn't have a garage and leaving your car sit out in the parking
lot overnight, generally makes it really hard to start.

While granted, smaller cars do start easier, I'd still feel safer knowing I
can turn the car over 4 times instead of once, or whatever...

>That small radiator is funny though...:)

I didn't notice the radiator in the Civic. I guess as long as it doesn't
overheat in 120 degree weather, it works, doesn't it?


--
Steve Sheldon [These are my own opinions]

James A. Drenter

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Sep 20, 1994, 2:00:48 PM9/20/94
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In article 7800...@pv14ad.vincent.iastate.edu, she...@iastate.edu (Steve Sheldon) writes:
>In <35mqma$p...@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> prha...@eos.ncsu.edu (Patrick R Haikal) writes:
>>In article <sheldon....@mystic.agron.iastate.edu>, she...@iastate.edu (Steve Sheldon) writes:
>
>>|> That battery might be just big enough to start the car in California. But
>>|>my concern is when it's -25 F the wind is blowing and the battery only has
>>|>enough charge to turn the engine over once...
>>|>
>>|> No thanks, I'll keep my big old 700 cold cranking amp AC Delco battery, or
>>|>whatever over the three D cells in a box.
>
>>Umm, in case you didn't notice... Honda uses DELCO batteries...
>>I left my lights on 3 times in my previous Civic (91), all three
>>times for 2-3+ hours, and it's still running strong.
>
> Once again Pico, you ignore the obvious. I don't care if Honda can't build
>batteries and has to buy them from AC Delco. Just how many cold cranking
>amps do those things have?
>
> Also in case you didn't notice, you seem to live in North Carolina. How
>cold does it get down there? Maybe 40 degrees?
>
> Try leaving your lights on for 3+ hours when it's 20 below not counting the
>wind chill, and see if your car starts.
>

My little sister has an old '80 Civic wagon (on it's second factory battery).
She always leaving the lights on and running the battery dead. But after one
jump, it starts right up and the battery continues to hold its charge quite
well.

Incidentally, she's an accounting major at Iowa State.

I own an '85 CRX Hf with the original battery. I've put 190,000 miles on it,
twice left the lights on--once for 3 1/2 hours--and never killed the battery
so bad it couldn't start the car. The last time (3 1/2 hrs.) was over
Christmas break last year (Davenport, IA), I don't remember how cold it was,
but there was ice on the garage. I do remember that I even lost the station
presets and the digital clock on my stereo. I'm sorry if the battery isn't
heavy enough for you, but I've never had a complaint.

My car (and battery) turned 10 this year. My next car will be a '95 Del Sol,
Prelude, or Acura Integra.

James
---
.........................................................................
James Drenter \\ Everywhere is walking distance \\
roo...@cs.clemson.edu \\ If you have the time. \\
roo...@tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil \\______________________ --- Steven \\
http://diogenes.cs.clemson.edu/~roofus/roofus.html \\ Wright \\
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Steve Sheldon

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Sep 20, 1994, 3:39:38 PM9/20/94
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In <35n80g$p...@hubcap.clemson.edu> roofus@.cs.clemson.edu (James A. Drenter) writes:

>My little sister has an old '80 Civic wagon (on it's second factory battery).
>She always leaving the lights on and running the battery dead. But after one
>jump, it starts right up and the battery continues to hold its charge quite
>well.

Running a battery dead by leaving the lights on will always cause a car to
not start.

>Incidentally, she's an accounting major at Iowa State.

Well great! Did she happen to have any problems starting her car in
january of 1994 when the weather was 15-20 below zero?

Or maybe December of 1989, that was also a particularly nasty freeze, as a
lot of cars in the dorm and apartment parking lots had to be jump started.

>I own an '85 CRX Hf with the original battery. I've put 190,000 miles on it,
>twice left the lights on--once for 3 1/2 hours--and never killed the battery
>so bad it couldn't start the car. The last time (3 1/2 hrs.) was over
>Christmas break last year (Davenport, IA), I don't remember how cold it was,
>but there was ice on the garage. I do remember that I even lost the station
>presets and the digital clock on my stereo. I'm sorry if the battery isn't
>heavy enough for you, but I've never had a complaint.

In other words you had to jump start the car. I don't understand how else
you could have lost the station presets and still started your car if the
battery still had a charge.

>My car (and battery) turned 10 this year. My next car will be a '95 Del Sol,
>Prelude, or Acura Integra.

I'm not arguiing the quality of the batteries. Obviously if the batteries
are made by AC Delco they are going to be pretty good and capable of running
them out and jumpstarting them without frying them or something.

I'm just curious if they have enough juice to turn the engine over at 20
below zero 4 or 5 times.

I guess maybe this winter if it get's really cold again such that the tow
trucks are having record sales I'll have to count and see how many Civic's I
see on the road and how many are being jumpstarted.

Granted, usually the cars that have problems are the ones with 8 cylinders
as they are harder to turn over. But I still question the wisdom of not
putting a full sized battery in a car, even if the engine is smaller.

Steve
Ohwell, I guess 15 years of living in Minnesota has made by paranoid.
Just glad I don't live in North Dakota or Alaska... :)

James A. Drenter

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Sep 20, 1994, 6:06:17 PM9/20/94
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In article 7800...@pv14ad.vincent.iastate.edu, she...@iastate.edu (Steve Sheldon) writes:
> Running a battery dead by leaving the lights on will always cause a car to
>not start.
>
You misunderstand. Killing and recharging a car battery will wreck the battery
after not too long (ie. it'll stop holding a charge). The battery in my sister's
car has had more than its share of this kind of abuse and is holding up well.
The extremes she puts the car through should be familar, atleast to you, as Iowa
winters aren't exactly mild (although the past summer was, compared to 89's).

> Well great! Did she happen to have any problems starting her car in
>january of 1994 when the weather was 15-20 below zero?
>

Not that I'm aware of, but I don't know if she drives to school this year.
I was home in early Jan. and remember it being relatively mild, but I left
before the 12th.

> Or maybe December of 1989, that was also a particularly nasty freeze, as a
>lot of cars in the dorm and apartment parking lots had to be jump started.
>

I was around for this one, however. It was on the 11th or 12th I think, and
was one of the coldest days I remember. I was the only one who had to go work
that day. It remains the only time in my life I've picked up a hitchhiker.
With windchill it was -60 to -70. I didn't have any car trouble, though.

>>I own an '85 CRX Hf with the original battery. I've put 190,000 miles on it,
>>twice left the lights on--once for 3 1/2 hours--and never killed the battery
>>so bad it couldn't start the car. The last time (3 1/2 hrs.) was over
>>Christmas break last year (Davenport, IA), I don't remember how cold it was,
>>but there was ice on the garage. I do remember that I even lost the station
>>presets and the digital clock on my stereo. I'm sorry if the battery isn't
>>heavy enough for you, but I've never had a complaint.
>
> In other words you had to jump start the car. I don't understand how else
>you could have lost the station presets and still started your car if the
>battery still had a charge.

The battery DID still have a charge (it's almost impossible to kill it completely).
It had enough charge to turn my engine (painfully) twice, which was enough to
start it. I've never had to jump start my car.

> I'm just curious if they have enough juice to turn the engine over at 20
>below zero 4 or 5 times.

I don't remember how long it took me to start my car that morning in 12/89, but
odds are it took at least two trys.

> Granted, usually the cars that have problems are the ones with 8 cylinders
>as they are harder to turn over. But I still question the wisdom of not
>putting a full sized battery in a car, even if the engine is smaller.
>

Compare the output (Amps, etc) of a "small" Honda battery with what was being
used 15-20 years ago with a Ford 351 or Chevy 350. You might be surprised how
the newer/smaller batteries stack up.

jon r patrick

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Sep 22, 1994, 4:12:23 PM9/22/94
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In article m...@taco.cc.ncsu.edu, prha...@eos.ncsu.edu (Patrick R Haikal) writes:
>
>|> Also in case you didn't notice, you seem to live in North Carolina. How
>|>cold does it get down there? Maybe 40 degrees?
>
>BZZT. Wrong. We do hit 10-15F in winter. Also, I have had my Civic in
>Maryland in winter, and it gets even colder up there (that's a big surpise!).

Yup. <spitoooon!>. Up here in ole' Nordth Car-O-Line-a all yous gotta
do is <spitoooon!> is put a bit ole' wad o-chew between your cheek and
gum before you set out in the morning, and you barely even notice the
cold air rushing up through the floorboards of your 1971 Chevy Truck.
<Spitooooon!>

jon
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon R. Patrick | "Then stab thine arm corageously,
JRP...@ENG.CLEMSON.EDU | And bind thy soul, that at some certain day
'87 VW Fox | Great Lucifer may claim it as his own,
Civil Engineering | And then be thou as great as Lucifer."
--Dr. Faustus
----------------------------------------------------------------------

William D. Athing

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Sep 26, 1994, 4:24:52 AM9/26/94
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I've had my '93 del Sol Si for about 13 mos. now, and just hit the
30000 mile mark. I've had one roof leak problem, probably because
I have the bad habit of grabbing the roof whilst I lower myself
into the drivers seat, which may have slightly deformed it.
As far as other problems, I haven't had any noise issues related to
my car (but those American cars can be heard from a mile away with
the 'ol roof off!).
I have had a fairly persistent problem with
the dome light flickering when it's in automatic mode (where you
open the door and the light comes on). I've had honda look at it
twice now, without successfully fixing it. It's my bet the problem
is in the alarm system (which also turns on said dome light when
the alarm is disarmed). I'm gonna try to take to the place that
installed the alarm this week.

- Bill Athing

ja...@opticslab1.uncc.edu

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Sep 26, 1994, 11:07:27 AM9/26/94
to
In article <athingCw...@netcom.com> ath...@netcom.com (William D. Athing)
writes:

>I have had a fairly persistent problem with
>the dome light flickering when it's in automatic mode (where you
>open the door and the light comes on). I've had honda look at it

Bill,

Try inspecting the OEM pin switches for the doors. I've seen it often (on other
cars) that only 1 wire is ran to these switches and the screw serves to ground
it to the body. If this is the culprit, you should be able to isolate the
offender by wiggling each pin switch and watch your dome light. You might want
to remove one and make sure paint isn't causing a bad circuit. Good luck!


Patrick R Haikal

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Sep 27, 1994, 11:39:32 AM9/27/94
to

In article <35sof7$j...@hubcap.clemson.edu>, jrp...@eng.clemson.edu (jon r patrick) writes:
|>In article m...@taco.cc.ncsu.edu, prha...@eos.ncsu.edu (Patrick R Haikal) writes:
|>>
|>>|> Also in case you didn't notice, you seem to live in North Carolina. How
|>>|>cold does it get down there? Maybe 40 degrees?
|>>
|>>BZZT. Wrong. We do hit 10-15F in winter. Also, I have had my Civic in
|>>Maryland in winter, and it gets even colder up there (that's a big surpise!).
|>
|>Yup. <spitoooon!>. Up here in ole' Nordth Car-O-Line-a all yous gotta
|>do is <spitoooon!> is put a bit ole' wad o-chew between your cheek and
|>gum before you set out in the morning, and you barely even notice the
|>cold air rushing up through the floorboards of your 1971 Chevy Truck.
|><Spitooooon!>
|>
|>jon
|>----------------------------------------------------------------------
|>Jon R. Patrick | "Then stab thine arm corageously,
|>JRP...@ENG.CLEMSON.EDU | And bind thy soul, that at some certain day

He's just jealous 'cause NC State whipped his tigers at home...:)

Pico

jon r patrick

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Sep 28, 1994, 3:35:39 PM9/28/94
to
In article j...@taco.cc.ncsu.edu, prha...@eos.ncsu.edu (Patrick R Haikal) writes:

>
>He's just jealous 'cause NC State whipped his tigers at home...:)
>
>Pico

Uhhhh,
Next year. We'll beat you next year.

heh, heh. yeah, what he said, beavis!!
jon


John Kepus

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Sep 30, 1994, 8:29:29 PM9/30/94
to
>/ hpcc01:rec.autos.misc / jrp...@eng.clemson.edu (jon r patrick) / 12:35 pm Sep 28, 1994 /

BH: Huh huh, you said 'beat'.
BV: Yah YAH!! Then you said 'jon'.

BH, BV: Huh huh, heh heh mheh heh...

-Todd K.


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