###TIMING BELT CONSPIRACY THEORY###
Owen Lee
I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
(I'd like to compile some data and will post the results later)
I had a 1983 Honda Civic, with a 5 sp. It went ~170k miles without
ever breaking the timing belt. My Uncle's 1986 Buick Park Avenue has
over 100k miles (Automatic), without breaking the timing belt. None
of my friends (work and social) has every broken a timing belt. In
fact, the only sources of broken timing belt stories are: auto-shops,
dealerships, and friend of a friend of a friend who has a broken one
once.
Harley Davidson uses a similar belt to drive its 800 pound motorcycles
in place of a chain. Now if a rubber belt is stong enough to drive a
800 pound bike for usually 10's of thousands of miles, wouldn't you think
it's strong enough to last for a life time when used to drive a couple
of cam shaft, which probably offer resistance equivalent to about 20 pounds?
My theory is that timing belt breaking is a scare story cooked up by
people who want you to spend $2-300 every 60k miles, so that the auto-
service industry can have a few billion dollars more business. After all,
the timing and valves were supposed to be adjusted anyway, why not add one
more item while the valve cover is off.
I want to know if you have had a timing belt broken before, if so,
which car was it (make, model, year, etc), transmission type (which
affects engine rpm), mileage (highway miles, local miles, average
speed), whether you are throttle happy, how high do you rev your
engine before shifting, climate (hot air presumably makes plastic
deteriorate faster), etc. All the variables that you think may
effect the life of a timing belt.
It's important that that you respond even if you have not had a broken
timing belt, especially if your car has gone over the magical 60k mile
mark without replacing the timing belt. Also, please include all cars
in your family so that I can have a big database. Otherwise I will
get only broken timing belt stories.
And please be honest.
Darvell Hunt
>My theory is that timing belt breaking is a scare story cooked up by
>people who want you to spend $2-300 every 60k miles,
My timimg belt went out.
My dad's timimg belt went out.
There.
Mine was a 1982 Ford Escort with manual transmission. It went out
at about 100,000 miles.
My dad's was a 1985 Subarooo Wagon with manual tranny. It went out
sometime under 100,000 miles.
We both bought them past the 60,000 mark so we don't know for sure
if it was ever changed.
I also own a 1991 Plymouth Colt currently at 60,000 miles. It hasn't gone
out. It's currently for sale. (Send me email if you're interested! ;-) )
I also own a 1991 Suzuki Sidekick. I bought it at 50,000 (and assume
it wasn't replaced before) and it currently has about 80,000 miles.
I haven't replaced it. I'll probably be changing it.
I just bought a 1993 Saturn SC2. It has 18,000 and is _still_ on the
original timing belt! Wahoo! I won't be changing it soon...
The "Timing Belt Myth" is no myth. It's kind of like that "wear clean
underwear in case in you get in an accident" thing. Only when you don't
change your underwear will you actually end up in an ambulance. :-)
Change it.
Darvell
david s. broudy
dvh...@cessna.sim.es.com (Darvell Hunt) writes:
> I just bought a 1993 Saturn SC2. It has 18,000 and is _still_ on the
> original timing belt! Wahoo! I won't be changing it soon...
Uh, don't Saturns use a *chain*?
Mr Conspiracy, your uncle's 86 Buick Park avenue uses a chain, and a
short one at that (OHV).
My Audi's timing belt broke at 90K miles.
My Camry's belt was changed at 60K, but only because of the car's age
(+9 years) at the time. It was very dried out and cracked.
---------- \=\
bro...@mizar.usc.edu /=/
Warning! Severe Tire Damage! \=\ /=/
Bakla ako, may angal ka? \=\ \=\
John Broderick
Owen Lee <ol...@cad629.intel.com> wrote:
>
>I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
>(I'd like to compile some data and will post the results later)
>
>which car was it (make, model, year, etc), transmission type (which
>affects engine rpm), mileage (highway miles, local miles, average
>speed), whether you are throttle happy, how high do you rev your
>engine before shifting, climate (hot air presumably makes plastic
>deteriorate faster), etc. All the variables that you think may
>effect the life of a timing belt.
>
I bought a 1983 Nissan Pulsar that had broken the timing belt.
It bent all the exhaust valves, and cost about $100 to get
fixed... I can't remember the exact mileage, but it was
something like 110,000 to 130,000 miles or so. The way I see
it, it's cheap insurance to replace the timing belt at the
required intervals. Kinda like gear oil in differential housings,
you can go hundreds of thousands of miles without replacing it but
if you do keep it replaced, the seals and bearings stay in good
condition for a longer time. This can make a big difference in
something like a transfer case or large truck manual transmission.
I've also heard that if the timing belt breaks on the Porsche
944, ALL THE VALVES GET BENT. I doubt that $100 would get a
Porsche head fixed, especially with all valves needing replacement.
Also, belt drive motorcycles have belts that are MUCH larger than
a timing belt. I sure as hell wouldn't put a timing belt on a
Kawasaki 440 let alone a big twin H-D.
--
|~~~\|~| |~|~~~\|~~~\ /~~~\ |~~~~~~| bub...@umcc.umcc.umich.edu
| ~_/| | | | ~_/| ~_/| ^ | ~~/ / 1992 G00F2-Gone soon *sniff*
| _ ~\ \_/ | _ ~\ _ ~\ |~| | / /__ 1987 XT600-Urban curb crawler
|____/\_____/|____/____/_| |_| |______|
Tim Nye
>I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
'79 Mustang 2.3L, broke the timing belt at about 78K miles.
'91 Ranger 2.3L, replaced the belt at about 66K miles. Took most of a
Saturday morning and cost $CAN 17.00 (about $US 12.25).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Nye "Remember: Keep your stick on the ice."
University of Waterloo
Xiaoxian Zeng
: I bought a 1983 Nissan Pulsar that had broken the timing belt.
: It bent all the exhaust valves, and cost about $100 to get
: fixed... I can't remember the exact mileage, but it was
: something like 110,000 to 130,000 miles or so. The way I see
: it, it's cheap insurance to replace the timing belt at the
: required intervals. Kinda like gear oil in differential housings,
If you only spent $100 to fix the valve problem, changing timing
belt is not a cheap insurance since many garages ask for $100+
to change a timing belt. You mentioned $100 twice so that cannot
be a typo for $1000 :-)
Why don't we just inspect it and decide if it needs to be changed?
Just 5 mintues' work to remove the timing belt top cover on many
cars.
: you can go hundreds of thousands of miles without replacing it but
Dave Darling
writes:
>My theory is that timing belt breaking is a scare story cooked up by
>people who want you to spend $2-300 every 60k miles, so that the auto-
>service industry can have a few billion dollars more business. After
all,
>the timing and valves were supposed to be adjusted anyway, why not add
one
>more item while the valve cover is off.
1: Survey size for my family = 3 Accords, 1 Civic, 1 CRX. VW/Porsche
914's (VW Bugs) are pushrod engines, so they don't count. Don't know
about
RX-7s.
2: 1 belt broke. At about 110K on 1 Accord. No bent valves (by some
miracle!!) but it turned out (shortly thereafter) that the head had
cracked.
The car's been sitting since, and will probably be junked soon.
Also: In many (most??) cars, changing the timing belt is just a *little*
more involved than popping off the valve cover, and yanking the belt...
On
the Hondas (early-80s Accords, late-80s-early-90s Civics) you have to
remove
one of the engine mounts to take the belt off. Not exactly a "while
you're
in there" job.
There are a lot of cars out there that *will* bend valves when the timing
belt goes. Many more that *may* bend valves, unless you're phenomenally
lucky.
Bent valves are expensive. The aforementioned 944 valve job is, I think,
in
the neighborhood of $3000. So another $100 or so every 60K miles
(sometimes
less!) is pretty cheap insurance.
Dave Darling, | HELP! I'm in TQM training,
Cockpit Graphics Programmer | and I can't get up!
GU d--@ -p+(p-) c+ !l(l--) u++(u--) e- m---@ s+/+ n+@
h+ f? g-(g+) w++ t++ r+@ y*
Sandi Rollins
[Conspiracy theory deleted]
>I want to know if you have had a timing belt broken before, if so,
>which car was it (make, model, year, etc), transmission type (which
Yes. 1982 Chevette, 4 speed manual.
>affects engine rpm), mileage (highway miles, local miles, average
>speed),
The car had 80K on the odometer. Bought the car at 49K. Good mixture
of city and highway driving (since the car was from FL and I got it in CA).
>whether you are throttle happy, how high do you rev your
>engine before shifting,
Not throttle happy -- you can't be in a Chevette! :^) No tach in
the car, but I'm estimating shifts at 4K rpm or so.
>climate (hot air presumably makes plastic deteriorate faster),
Florida and central CA.
>It's important that that you respond even if you have not had a broken
>timing belt, especially if your car has gone over the magical 60k mile
>mark without replacing the timing belt. Also, please include all cars
>in your family so that I can have a big database. Otherwise I will
>get only broken timing belt stories.
Other car: 1983 Nissan Stanza. It blew a head gasket before the timing
belt could go. :^) And yes, I had flushed the radiator, replaced the
thermostat, and checked fluid levels -- apparently not an unusual occurence on
that model. I traded it in on a Saturn at 60K -- the water pump/
timing belt job was estimated at $350, and played a part in the decision
to get rid of it.
--
Sandi Rollins, srol...@econ.berkeley.edu
* These are not the opinions of my employer. *
rsel...@lexmark.com
>>people who want you to spend $2-300 every 60k miles,
>
>My timimg belt went out.
>
>My dad's timimg belt went out.
>
>There.
>
>
>
My 86 Celica (mentioned in _86 Celica ST_) broke its belt at 70k miles.
Is this the same conspiracy that killed JFK?
-Ron
Jizhong Wang
I have a good friend who has only two used car in his life. Both cars had
broken timing belts, only a mile driving for his first and three hundred
miles for the second. Here are the details:
The First
78 Horzon, 5 sp standard, 100K.
The car was delieved and sat in the backyard for a day. He started the car
and drove about 200 meters (!). The belt broke, and the valves was bent.
This accident costed him 450 bucks.
The Second
87 Hyundai Excel, 3 sp automatic, 62.5K.
This time he was luckier. He used the car for about 1 week or so. He was
planning a long trip so that I suggested he should take the car for a test
highway-speed driving. Two days later I had a phone call from him in
the evening saying he was on the shoulder of a freeway with a broken timing
belt. Yes, he was luckier this time. The valves were intact so only costed
him 160 bucks (two hrs labor + parts).
You may argue that both cars were used so that no definitive conclusion
can be drawn. Only God knows how many miles on the timing belts. However,
I should say that if the same event happened twice, the probability can
NOT be small. Believe me, I am a mathematician.
BTW, we are living in Winnipeg, Canada. A nice city with real winters (-40
C) and real summers (+40 C).
jizhong
Mark Brindle
o '70 Saab 99 timing *CHAIN* slipped at ~45k miles
(Saab-from-hell) (totally destroyed engine @ < 5 mph!)
o '82 Civic (4-dr) died of rust at 10 yrs, ~130k miles,
T.B. changed at 60k, no failures
o '85 Accord (4-dr) traded-in at 9 yrs, ~150k miles,
T.B. changed at 60k, no failures
o '89 MX-6 (turbo) still going strong at 118k
T.B. changed at 60k, no failures
Numerous other cars omitted due to push-rod engines (no T.B.)
or no recollection of replacement history (but no failures).
belts: 0/3, chains: 1/1
Mark
Brett Hunter
-snip-
: 1: Survey size for my family = 3 Accords, 1 Civic, 1 CRX. VW/Porsche
: 914's (VW Bugs) are pushrod engines, so they don't count. Don't know
: about
: RX-7s.
-snip-
Rotaries (RX-7's) have no valves and therefore require no timing belts or
chains.
L8er,
Brett
bm...@crl.com
Steve Elliott
944 Turbo complaining of the repair cost.
I talked to the mechanic when the owner took off. The owner of the 944
Turbo explicitly refused to have the Timing Belt serviced at the
appropriate interval.
The 944 Turbo's valves met the cylinder heads and all were bent. The
estimate cost of repair was around $2500 - $3000!!!!!!
I guess the answer to whether you should service the timing belt depends
more on your own risk aversity/propensity than the individual car. If
you feel safe then do not service the belt, I am not risky. Considering
the cost of repairing damage caused by a timing belt malfunction and the
cost of servicing a timing belt, I will always choose the service.
Realistically, you need only replace the belt 2-3 times considering an
average life of a car.
I have insurance on my house, I service my timing belt, I do not like the
potential consequences if I neglect either one.
_________________________________________________________________________
"Aerodynamics are for people who cannot build engines" - Enzo Ferrari
Steve Elliot ---- s5el...@sms.business.uwo.ca
_________________________________________________________________________
Melinda L. Gierisch
Conditions: The car had been used for mostly highway driving, but
when the belt broke I was doing 35 and slowing down for a traffic
light.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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_ ___/ /\| | Horse: Danny ( Thoroughbred )
,;`( )__, ) ~ | Other: Tanner ( Black Labrador )
// // '--; |
' \ | | #include <dsclaimr.h>
| Search and Rescue: That Others May Live!
Roberto L. Landrau
>
>I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
>(I'd like to compile some data and will post the results later)
>
>I had a 1983 Honda Civic, with a 5 sp. It went ~170k miles without
>ever breaking the timing belt. My Uncle's 1986 Buick Park Avenue has
>over 100k miles (Automatic), without breaking the timing belt.
The Park Avenue does not use a timing belt, I don't think. It uses a
timing chain.
>None of my friends (work and social) has every broken a timing belt.
>In fact, the only sources of broken timing belt stories are:
>auto-shops, dealerships, and friend of a friend of a friend who has a
>broken one once.
See below.
>Harley Davidson uses a similar belt to drive its 800 pound motorcycles
>in place of a chain. Now if a rubber belt is stong enough to drive a
>800 pound bike for usually 10's of thousands of miles, wouldn't you think
>it's strong enough to last for a life time when used to drive a couple
>of cam shaft, which probably offer resistance equivalent to about 20
>pounds?
Well... it is more than 20 lbs. It has to move the camshaft(s) and
push all the valves. Otherwise, I agree with you. The belts should
be strong enough. In practice, they are breaking.
>I want to know if you have had a timing belt broken before, if so,
>which car was it (make, model, year, etc), transmission type (which
>affects engine rpm), mileage (highway miles, local miles, average
>speed), whether you are throttle happy, how high do you rev your
>engine before shifting, climate (hot air presumably makes plastic
>deteriorate faster), etc. All the variables that you think may
>effect the life of a timing belt.
1990 Eclipse 52000 miles. Perfect maintenance record. Completely
stock, never raced. Still under (extended) warranty. Broken
timing belt resulted in $2500 repair bill. 4v/cyl design has
valves close to pistons that actually touch if they are not in
synch.
1982 Rabbit Diesel. 152000 miles (I bought it at 120k, who knows if
it was the original belt). Car wasn't worth putting another
$200-$300 in preventive maintenance, so I just drove it. One
day ... CLUNK! and the engine shut off. 5 bent valves: repair
was worth more than the car. Diesel engines (23:1 compression
engine) have no clearance between the valves and the piston.
no problems with:
1988 Honda Civic. Drove it for 90k without a problem. Changed it
then ($225 for timing belt and water pump) as preventive
maintenance and it has been OK since then (140k). I will
chage it again somewhere around 150k. This 4v/cyl engine will
also self-destruct in case of a broken belt.
1986 Nissan 200SX, 2.0l. Drove for 90k without a problem, then sold
the car. Notice that 2.0l engine was 2v/cyl and it would not
suffer bent valves from a broken timing belt. In that case, I
wouldn't throw money away by replacing it. Just wait until it
breaks.
>And please be honest.
Isn't everybody in this newsgroup honest? :)
--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Roberto L. Landrau KC1YP r...@linus.mitre.org
The MITRE Corporation Bedford, MA 01730 r...@linus.UUCP
Allan Kintigh
: I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
: (I'd like to compile some data and will post the results later)
: [ Stuff Deleted ]
: And please be honest.
1981 Plymouth Horizon 1.7L (VW) Engine. Stick Timing belt broke at 110K No
damage
1985 Honda Accord Auto Timing Belt Broke at 80K No Damage Lucky I guess
1988 Nissan Maxima Stick Changed timing belt at 80K because things break on
this motor if you don't.
1972 Plymouth Satalite Custom 318 Timing Chain 3 times 2 stretch 1 break.
1st stretch @ 150K, 1st break @ 220K, 2nd stretch @ God only knows, odo
quit at 250K in 1986. This car still runs.
But this story belongs with the beater thread.
--
"Always code as if the guy who ends up maintaining | Allan Kintigh
your code will be a violent psychopath | all...@apertus.com
who knows where you live." | Apertus Technologies
John F. Woods | Eden Praire, Minnesota
My Opinions are my own and not to be taken seriously | 612.828.0294
Robert M. Martel
: I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
: (I'd like to compile some data and will post the results later)
Lets see,
Had a friend loose a belt on her Escort at about 63,000 miles
lost mine on my Chevette (82) at 88,000 and again at 145,000 miles.
Neither car had any "collateral damage".
--
********************************************************************************
* Bob Martel - System Administrator | I met someone who looks a lot like you *
* Levin College of Urban Affairs | She does the things you do *
* Cleveland State University | But she is an IBM *
* bo...@cua2.csuohio.edu (216) 687-2214| Jeff Lynne *
********************************************************************************
Rich Zidonis
In a previous article, ol...@cad629.intel.com (Owen Lee) says:
>
>It's important that that you respond even if you have not had a broken
>timing belt, especially if your car has gone over the magical 60k mile
>mark without replacing the timing belt. Also, please include all cars
>in your family so that I can have a big database. Otherwise I will
>get only broken timing belt stories.
Renault Encore - 1985 +/- a few years. More than 60k, less than 100k.
Yep, broke the belt. A bigger problem, though, was the valves that then got
bent.
Chevy something or other with a conventional V8 engine. Did not break the
belt (in this case a chain), but the fiber drive gear was worn to the point
that it jumped a few teeth.
My comment, quit your bitchin. Sell the car two weeks before the belt breaks.
;^)
--
RAZ ai...@cleveland.freenet.edu
Wolfgang Zweygart
>I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
Here is my comment.. wait I have to calm down a bit after reading your post..
>My theory is that timing belt breaking is a scare story cooked up by
>people who want you to spend $2-300 every 60k miles, so that the auto-
>service industry can have a few billion dollars more business. After all,
>the timing and valves were supposed to be adjusted anyway, why not add one
>more item while the valve cover is off.
Great, do you want to send me some money for my huge engine repair bill I had
in 1993 (3000 DM labour is expensive in Germany!)
>All the variables that you think may
>effect the life of a timing belt.
here it is: VW Golf GTI 16V 1987
Timing belt broke at 143000 km in Feb.1993. One side of the belt looked
well the other was a little odd...
Curious is that VW has ordered an inspection of the timing belt (no change)
until Jan.1993. Then they changed their mind and said the timing belt has
to be replaced at 120000 km.
In fact my car was at the 120000 km inspection in Nov 1992 and the mechanic
said the timing belt was in a good shape. SH*T...
After that expensive experience I did some investigation on timing belts:
There is no relationship between reving or temperature and the life of a
timing belt. The major problem is oil.. A few drops of oil leaking onto the
timing belt will ruin this important piece.
BTW the intervall for inspection and oil change are very different for the
same car in US and Germany: oil change: every year or 15000km,
inspection: every 30000 km or every year (or means what ever is first)...
>And please be honest.
I tried to...
Bye Wolfgang
Jim McDonald
I sincerely hope your car isn't one of these which lunches the engine
when the belt breaks. Oops, I looked again at your article; It is.
Jim
V...@vm.temple.edu
Cousin's Integra -- '87, stick, 1.6l 4cyl/16valve/DOHC -- timing
belt broke at approx 75,000 miles, while we were driving. No noise
at all -- the engine just stalled. We even tried to push-start it,
hoping that it's just a battery problem. All 16 valves were bent --
$2,500 quote from an Acura dealer, he fixed it for $1,200 at a local
shop.
Mine Subaru Justy -- '89, 1.2l 3cyl/9valve/SOHC, stick. Currently
have 50,000 miles. *Will* replace the timing belt at 60,000.
My dad's 1981 Olds Regency-98 -- had 280,000 miles on it when
he totalled it. Timing chain was just fine.
My dad's 1984 Buick Century T-Type -- had 75,000 miles on it
when it was stolen. The chain was just fine.
My dad's Mitsu Galant -- '85, 2.4l 4cyl/8valves/SOHC, automatic.
We bought it at 53,000 miles -- both timing belts were replaced
prior to that at about 50,000 (it has two of them !?).
My dad's friend's Olds Regency -- '81, 5.0l V-8/16 valves/OHV? --
currently has about 150,000 -- timing chain broke at about
90,000 miles -- no valve damage -- $250 at local shop.
Vlad.
todd haverkos
Timing belt went in the neighborhood of 60k engine miles. The belt
was very dry and cracked. The engine was about 7 years old.
The belt didn't really break...enough belt teeth were sheared
off to stop turning the valves any.... Actually happened during
deceleration.
Had to replace all 4 exhaust valves. Painful painful $900 experience.
Todd Haverkos
my views only
Michael Jacobsen
>I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
>(I'd like to compile some data and will post the results later)
>
>which car was it (make, model, year, etc), transmission type (which
>affects engine rpm), mileage (highway miles, local miles, average
>speed), whether you are throttle happy, how high do you rev your
>engine before shifting, climate (hot air presumably makes plastic
>deteriorate faster), etc. All the variables that you think may
>effect the life of a timing belt.
>
horizontaly opposed 4-cylinder 1.8 liter with MPFI. Most of the
miles on the vehicle are highway miles (60-65 mph) back and forth
The Subaru manuals recommend changing both timing belts at
60 thousand miles. The belt broke at 63 thousand miles. That
made a beliver out of me. However not paying close enough
attention as the milage built up the second time, she again
was stranded on the side of the road at about 128 thousand miles.
You can bet I won't get caught with another towing charge, at
least not for a timing belt failure.
Just to note, the diver side belt was the failure in both cases.
This belt is slightly longer than the other side and also drives
the distributor via the cam shaft.
Just another data point.
Mike Jacobsen jaco...@oasys.dt.navy.mil (410)293-3825
--
Robert B. Smith
I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
(I'd like to compile some data and will post the results later)
[snip]
My theory is that timing belt breaking is a scare story cooked up by
people who want you to spend $2-300 every 60k miles, so that the auto-
service industry can have a few billion dollars more business. After all,
the timing and valves were supposed to be adjusted anyway, why not add one
more item while the valve cover is off.
Your theory is bogus. My timing belt broke at 37K miles (mixed
highway, city) and I'm a moderate driver and maintained the car
meticulously. It was an acknowledged flaw of the belts used
(Mitsubishi DOHC 2.0L engines) - it should have lasted much longer.
But they do wear out, and the consequences can be catastrophic to the
engine!
Bob
--
=============================================================================
Bob Smith Hewlett Packard (303)-229-3595
Engineering Systems Labs
3404 East Harmony Road
Fort Collins, CO 80525 r...@hpesrbs.fc.hp.com
All opinions expressed are those of the author only.
=============================================================================
Chris Gee
1981 VW rabbit
mileage: @190k
location: NY(Long Island)
comments: still flies despite rusting floor
1979 VW dasher deisel
mileage: @120k
location: NY(Long Island)
comments: the 'clam boat' is still being used
for daily commuting by my dad
1986 Jeep Cherokee(2dr)
mileage: @90k
location: NY(Long Island)
comments: runs fine, was used used for frequent trips
from Long Island, NY to Mid-Vermont
1987 audi 5000s quattro
mileage: @68k
location: NY(Long Island) and then Los Angeles, CA
comments: before getting killed by a Caddy, it was
running fine; i've taken it up to 120mph
twice once in NY and once in CA, no problems.
1986 subaru hatchback
mileage: @75k
location: Los Angeles, CA
comments: needs a new carburetor, otherwise runs ok.
summary: no timing problems for my families' cars. yet.
i have a brand new '94 passat, with other 'build'
problems but nothing timing belt related.
============================================================================
Christopher W Gee (ch...@fa.disney.com) | "...this program WORKS, it just
Walt Disney Feature Animation | doesn't compile..."
Glendale, CA 91221 | "...that's as white as it gets,
voice (818)544-2505 fax (818)544-4579 | all the bits are on..."
============================================================================
Gary Jablonski [ASPC](2268)W1E089
put them over oil filter you want to remove. Then take vice-grips
th clamp down on the belt. The cogs of the belt make it easy to
grip with V-G. Handle of the V-G makes a great lever arm
to apply torque.
Adjusts to the largest filter. I suppose this make-shift tool
has other applications too. Any suggestions out there?
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are that of the author alone and
may not represent the policy of my employer its management and
staff.
===========================================================================
Gary Jablonski | Another programmer cruising the information (not yet
g...@abiss.att.com | super) highway swerving to avoid roadkill before I
Somerset, NJ | kick in the turbo and jump to the passing lane.
===========================================================================
Eric Porter
: I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
: (I'd like to compile some data and will post the results later)
**** stuff deleted ****
: I want to know if you have had a timing belt broken before, if so,
: which car was it (make, model, year, etc), transmission type (which
: affects engine rpm), mileage (highway miles, local miles, average
: speed), whether you are throttle happy, how high do you rev your
: engine before shifting, climate (hot air presumably makes plastic
: deteriorate faster), etc. All the variables that you think may
: effect the life of a timing belt.
I broke a timing belt in my first Mazda B2000 at about 70000 miles. No
engine damage.. just real inconvient.. 100 miles from home and the only
garage around did not know anything about "them foriegn trucks but it looks
like you broke the gumband" (yes that is a quote...).
My curruent truck is at 60000, I intend to have the belt replace within
the next 2000 or so miles.
Eric Porter --- e...@lcark.net
Evan Hawrysh
>
>My theory is that timing belt breaking is a scare story cooked up by
>people who want you to spend $2-300 every 60k miles, so that the auto-
>service industry can have a few billion dollars more business. After all,
>the timing and valves were supposed to be adjusted anyway, why not add one
>more item while the valve cover is off.
>
I just replaced the timing belt on an '87 Sentra at 96k kms (approx 60 k mi).
I inspected the belt closely - it is usually the cogs that will shear off,
causing the belt to slip, rather than catastrophic belt destruction. It was in
near perfect condition. But the only cost to me was $25 and a sunburnt back.
The local dealer wanted $400+, but I probably could have gotten them to throw
in the suntan lotion for free :=)
Evan
ehaw...@bnr.ca
Larry E. Snyder
>
>I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
>(I'd like to compile some data and will post the results later)
Do you look for Commies under the bed at night, too?
>
>I had a 1983 Honda Civic, with a 5 sp. It went ~170k miles without
>ever breaking the timing belt. My Uncle's 1986 Buick Park Avenue has
>over 100k miles (Automatic), without breaking the timing belt. None
>of my friends (work and social) has every broken a timing belt. In
>fact, the only sources of broken timing belt stories are: auto-shops,
>dealerships, and friend of a friend of a friend who has a broken one
>once.
I've broken two timing belts, both on Volkswagen Rabbits. I think both had
more than 100k miles on them. Fortunately, on gas rabbits there is sufficient
clearance between the pistons and the valves to prevent any valve damage.
>
>Harley Davidson uses a similar belt to drive its 800 pound motorcycles
>in place of a chain. Now if a rubber belt is stong enough to drive a
>800 pound bike for usually 10's of thousands of miles, wouldn't you think
>it's strong enough to last for a life time when used to drive a couple
>of cam shaft, which probably offer resistance equivalent to about 20 pounds?
Lot more than 20 pounds!
>
>My theory is that timing belt breaking is a scare story cooked up by
>people who want you to spend $2-300 every 60k miles, so that the auto-
>service industry can have a few billion dollars more business. After all,
>the timing and valves were supposed to be adjusted anyway, why not add one
>more item while the valve cover is off.
>
>I want to know if you have had a timing belt broken before, if so,
>which car was it (make, model, year, etc), transmission type (which
>affects engine rpm), mileage (highway miles, local miles, average
>speed), whether you are throttle happy, how high do you rev your
>engine before shifting, climate (hot air presumably makes plastic
>deteriorate faster), etc. All the variables that you think may
>effect the life of a timing belt.
See above
>
>It's important that that you respond even if you have not had a broken
>timing belt, especially if your car has gone over the magical 60k mile
>mark without replacing the timing belt. Also, please include all cars
>in your family so that I can have a big database. Otherwise I will
>get only broken timing belt stories.
>
>
>And please be honest.
If this is the biggest problem you face in life, you're very lucky!
I always gripe about timing belts. I own some old cars, and they all have
chains on them. It seems to me the chain is a more solid, longer-lasting
solution.
I believe that one reason for the failure of the timing belt is the leakage
of oil from the valve cover onto the belt. The petroleum products in the
oil actually eat away the rubber in the belt, and it fails. I'll bet these
belts would last a lot longer if drivers would so more to prevent oil
leakage from the valve cover and the head gasket itself.
***********************************************************************
* Larry E. Snyder * *
* Monsanto Company * CLEVER QUOTE OR PHRASE GOES HERE *
* St. Louis, MO * les...@monsanto.com *
***********************************************************************
cmont...@cc.memphis.edu
> I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
> (I'd like to compile some data and will post the results later)
>
It is not a hard thing to get to. This car had 90,000 miles on it. I feel you
should check the belt every few years. It is a very inexpensive job, and takes
little intelligence. The gasket only costs a few dollars. If you find wear on
the belt, it would be wise to change it out. This way you do not have to worry
about having bent valves. If there are any arguements please answer me.
-R.KENY
Jim McDonald <mcdo...@slacvm.stanford.edu> wrote:
>In article <30k467$a...@inews.intel.com>, ol...@cad629.intel.com (Owen Lee) says:
>>
>>
>>I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
>>(I'd like to compile some data and will post the results later)
>>
>>I had a 1983 Honda Civic, with a 5 sp. It went ~170k miles without
>>ever breaking the timing belt. My Uncle's 1986 Buick Park Avenue has
>>over 100k miles (Automatic), without breaking the timing belt. None
>>of my friends (work and social) has every broken a timing belt. In
>>fact, the only sources of broken timing belt stories are: auto-shops,
>>dealerships, and friend of a friend of a friend who has a broken one
>>once.
>>
and was replaced.
Keny
David Zatz
: I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
: (I'd like to compile some data and will post the results later)
[ edited]
: My theory is that timing belt breaking is a scare story cooked up by
: people who want you to spend $2-300 every 60k miles, so that the auto-
: service industry can have a few billion dollars more business. After all,
: the timing and valves were supposed to be adjusted anyway, why not add one
: more item while the valve cover is off.
Timing belt broken on friend's Eclipse, 62,000 miles.
Also on friend's Volvo, 58,000 miles.
Original timing belt on friends' Reliant (130,000) and Shadow (get this
-- 140,000 miles on a 1987!). Both were 2.2, I think.
Eclipse, Volvo, Shadow in NJ. Reliant in RI. Eclipse driven very hard,
Volvo cuddled, Reliant pushed hard and took strong load (wagon with lots
of crap in the back; five-speed). All sticks.
/dave
Gary Sarff
ground off, metal shavings everywhere. The same thing happened to
my dad's Lincoln
1984 Lincoln Continental 93,000 miles, gear teeth worn off.
In both cases the car would not even start, but up until that moment
I had no idea anything was wrong. Engine seemed to be running fine
I was getting about 27mpg in my riviera. It was strange because the
night before my car left me stranded in town, I was talking to my
dad on the phone and he told me about his car and this problem. Then
the next morning my car won't start and it turns out to be this.
I was told that the engine control computer just keeps compensating
for the timing problems to keep the engine running well until it
dies with catastrophic failure. Luckily no bent valves or engine
damage for me.
--
[] (the null signature)
Craig Huffnagle
: I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
: (I'd like to compile some data and will post the results later)
: I want to know if you have had a timing belt broken before, if so,
: which car was it (make, model, year, etc), transmission type (which
: affects engine rpm), mileage (highway miles, local miles, average
: speed), whether you are throttle happy, how high do you rev your
: engine before shifting, climate (hot air presumably makes plastic
: deteriorate faster), etc. All the variables that you think may
: effect the life of a timing belt.
My roommate has a 1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX Turbo. His timing belt
broke at about 67,000 miles. It bent most of the valves (if not all)
and cost him about $1,000 (yes, thousand) to get fixed. He has a five-
speed manual transmission and was in Mobile, AL returning to Pensacola, FL
when it happened. I don't know of his particular driving habits before
the breakage. I also believe that his father's timing belt (same year
car and everything) also broke about the same mileage. So, I plan on
doing the preventative maintainence of replacing my timing belt. It
has to be cheaper than $1,000 to repair!
Craig
--
Craig Huffnagle
To fly is human, to hover is divine! '91 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin Turbo
chuf...@dmso.dtic.dla.mil I don't think it up, I just type it.
h...@hsan.loc.gov
>
>I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
>(I'd like to compile some data and will post the results later)
>
>of my friends (work and social) has every broken a timing belt.
My Mercury Lynx (Merc version of Ford Escort) said to replace
the belt at 60K miles. A so-called mechanic supposedly did this
at ca. 33K. However, at 61K the belt snapped on the way home from
work one evening (ironically, the day I left early to get a head
start on the front brakes). Took out all the valves.
Whoever thought up using a timing belt instead of a chain
deserves a special circle in Hell, near the center, but I don't
think the warnings are a conspiracy.
These opinions are my own, not those of the Library of
Congress.
Howard Sanner
h...@hsan.loc.gov
san...@mail.loc.gov
Mark G. Pipkorn
>I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
>(I'd like to compile some data and will post the results later)
[snip]
>It's important that that you respond even if you have not had a broken
>timing belt, especially if your car has gone over the magical 60k mile
>mark without replacing the timing belt. Also, please include all cars
>in your family so that I can have a big database. Otherwise I will
>get only broken timing belt stories.
>And please be honest.
I've replaced two broken belts for my brother-in-law:
74(?) Pinto ~90,000 miles
78 VW Scirocco ~75,000 miles
No other damage caused by the broken belt(s) and I don't recall the engine/
transmission details. I've never owned a car with a timing belt. They have
all been either chains or gears.
M. Pipkorn
AT&T GIS, St. Paul, MN
Steve Elliott
have them.
In some cars, if these belts blow not only does the engine run as bumpy
as a Quad-4, the fragments of the balance belt may cause timing belt
failures.
Ideally, while you change the timing belt, change the balance shaft belt
as well. Also do not forget to adjust the tension of the timing belt (if
there is not auto adjustment, loose belts can cause timing belt failures)
after a break-in period
Donna A. Lilly
double timing chain design, so I'll just mention that I think a really
excellent design for an automobile engine includes not using any rubber,
plastic or cardboard engine components which are load bearing.
P.S. My X model car still runs better than new after Y (lots) miles. Am
all set for another HARD DRIVING Y miles (make and model deleted cause I
don't want to make that one guy edgy again). Could use some paint though,
any body care to volunteer?
Once again thanking thee,
--
Donna Lilly
Cleveland, OH
Dwayne Clipperton
|> In article <30k467$a...@inews.intel.com> ol...@cad629.intel.com (Owen Lee) writes:
|>
|> >I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
|>
|>
|> '91 Ranger 2.3L, replaced the belt at about 66K miles. Took most of a
|> Saturday morning and cost $CAN 17.00 (about $US 12.25).
I recommend that you find out if your car if your valves
and pistons will meet if the belt breaks.
My girlfriend has an '88 Corolla with 110K's (about 65K miles).
I've been told by the Toy. dealer that the valves won't meet
the pistons. If the belt breaks, tow it in and get a new one.
Several years ago, my house-mate's Mazda 626 self-destructed
when it's belt broke--bent valves, broken pistons, warpped
head, etc.
I have a 2.5L K-car with ~265K's (about 165K miles) and
is on it's second belt. Does anyone know if this engine
will self-destruct if the belt breaks? The first belt
was removed due to excessive noise.
Thanks,
Dwayne Clipperton.
--
Disclaimer: due to the possibility that my opinions may get
me into trouble and BNR doesn't want trouble, then BNR won't
claim responsibility for my opinions unless they want trouble.
PAUL M. NORD
>I just bought a 1993 Saturn SC2. It has 18,000 and is _still_ on the
>original timing belt! Wahoo! I won't be changing it soon...
Well, ah.. that's probably because the Saturns use a timing chain instead of
a belt. They don't break. But, they do make the engine a little noiser and,
they are more expensive than belts. That's probably why many cars use belts
instead of chains. Though, it's best if the valve will clear the pistion when
the belt breaks.
Our Mustang, now at 100K miles has had the timing belt replaced twice.
Paul
JEFF
> (I'd like to compile some data and will post the results later)
>
>[snip]
>
> My theory is that timing belt breaking is a scare story cooked up by
> people who want you to spend $2-300 every 60k miles, so that the auto-
> service industry can have a few billion dollars more business. After all,
> the timing and valves were supposed to be adjusted anyway, why not add one
> more item while the valve cover is off.
>
1985 Celica: bought at 103k miles. Timing chain broke at 112,000 miles while
doing 15mph. Dealer estimated $1200. Local shop did it for $500 (with water
pump). Dealer said this type of engine doesn't bend valves.
1986 Acura Integra (boss' car): Broke at around 100k. Bent 12 valves. Was in
shop for couple of weeks. Machined engine. $1500.
1986 Acura Integra (friend's car): Broke at 93k. Broke 3 days after she bought
the car. Bent 2 valves. $750.
1987 Acura Integra (my car!): Bought at 89k miles. Replaced at 93k. So far
so good. Currently 130k.
Moral: change before it breaks. Much cheaper.
Mark Brindle
: You know the make and mileage of my car already and the fact that it has a
: double timing chain design, so I'll just mention that I think a really
: excellent design for an automobile engine includes not using any rubber,
: plastic or cardboard engine components which are load bearing.
Don't mean to cast asparagus on your toy, but it's been my (sad)
experience that T-chains are NOT bullet-proof. My Saab-from-hell
slipped its chain at about 45k and totally blitzed the engine.
So, if you hear *any* strange noises in that vicinity, check-out
the chain/tensioner/sprockets/whatever -- pronto.
redline or bust,
Mark
Dr. Who
There was a recall for Infinity G20's due to chain slippage, causing bent
valves, have seen the results from 2 such motors
Nick Primavesi
>Well, ah.. that's probably because the Saturns use a timing chain instead of
>a belt. They don't break. But, they do make the engine a little noiser and,
>they are more expensive than belts. That's probably why many cars use belts
>instead of chains. Though, it's best if the valve will clear the pistion when
>the belt breaks.
They certainly do break! At least on British cars.
In my experience:
Rover 2000 chain broke at around 70k miles (2 bent valves, smashed tensioners)
Rover 3500 chain slipped at " " (no damage)
BMW 3 series belt broke at 80k miles (new engine required)
I don't know if its because European vehicles have smaller and higher revving
engines and therefore the parts wear faster, but I wouldn't take a chance on
such a cheap item doing so much damage to my engine by not replacing every 60k
or so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nick Primavesi, Schlumberger Gas UK, Stretford, Manchester M32 0XX, UK
Telephone +44(0)61 865 1181, Fax +44(0)61 864 3374
Internet: prim...@mnc440.sinet.slb.com, prim...@norcross.mcs.slb.com (Eudora)
Marcus Bonse
>You know the make and mileage of my car already and the fact that it has a
>double timing chain design, so I'll just mention that I think a really
>excellent design for an automobile engine includes not using any rubber,
>plastic or cardboard engine components which are load bearing.
What's the problems with belts? Timing chains have to be replaced too during
normal maintenance. At least on a high-performance engine like a Alfa Romeo
or a Maserati. Chains are more expensive than belts, heavier (increased
inertia!!), noisierand some other things. If a car is well designed, changing
a belt is a matter of minutes. So what's the big deal? Chains can break too
('73 Caddy, I can still hear my father cursing :)
Marcus Bonse email: m.h.w...@wbmt.tudelft.nl
Delft University of Technology
Lab. for Micro Engineering
Joe Weissmann
>From: ol...@cad629.intel.com (Owen Lee)
>Date: 20 Jul 1994 21:15:51 GMT
>I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
>(I'd like to compile some data and will post the results later)
85 Daytona Turbo. 65K miles mostly around town, broke in 92,
no valve damage, cost $300 to fix at dealer.
Joe Weissmann, CITS/CCS weis...@ucbeh.san.uc.edu
University of Cincinnati (513) 558-3234
Cincinnati, Ohio 45267
Greg Begay
: In article <RBS.94Ju...@hpesrbs.fc.hp.com>, r...@hpesrbs.fc.hp.com (Robert B. Smith) writes...>
YIKES!!! I'm gonna get my 90 Toyota Camry (2.0l 16 valve 4cyl, 63K miles)
in the shop ASAP!
--
Greg Begay
Email: be...@fc.hp.com
Stephen D'Amelio
: Your theory is bogus. My timing belt broke at 37K miles (mixed
: highway, city) and I'm a moderate driver and maintained the car
: meticulously. It was an acknowledged flaw of the belts used
: (Mitsubishi DOHC 2.0L engines) - it should have lasted much longer.
: But they do wear out, and the consequences can be catastrophic to the
: engine!
Hmmm. My father had a Mitsu 2.0 PU.Belt broke at 45K. He sold the truck
to me at 80K miles. The belt broke again at 90K miles. I knew this was
an early failure rate, but never knew about the belt problem. (anyway,
I sold the truck, who can afford $600 for a carburator!)
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Steve D'Amelio
dam...@bedford.progress.com
2.05 intake, 1.71 exhaust, 292 duration, 560 lift, 351ci, 10:1 comp. Arr,arr...
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
John Broderick
Xiaoxian Zeng <ze...@utdallas.edu> wrote:
>
>If you only spent $100 to fix the valve problem, changing timing
>belt is not a cheap insurance since many garages ask for $100+
>to change a timing belt. You mentioned $100 twice so that cannot
>be a typo for $1000 :-)
Well I took the head off and took it to the machine shop myself,
so that saved me quite a bit. I'm sure it would have cost
close to 1000 to have the shop do it... Maybe not, maybe around
500-600, but you get my drift...
>
>Why don't we just inspect it and decide if it needs to be changed?
>Just 5 mintues' work to remove the timing belt top cover on many
>cars.
The problem is that people don't even bother to do that...
It seems like a lot of Americans don't realize that
"if it ain't broke, don't fix it" CAN lead to hassles, and
"if it ain't broke, make sure it ain't broke or gonna break"
might be a better mindset.
Natura granite series from Florida Tile:
At last, a tile you can Poupon for years without leaving a stain...
Lin Yue
In article <30k467$a...@inews.intel.com>, ol...@cad629.intel.com (Owen Lee) writes:
|>
|> I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
|> (I'd like to compile some data and will post the results later)
I know of a friend who replaced the timing belt on his Camry('85 automatic)
for about $200. The old timing belt was not broken. He replaced it just
as maintainance.
BTW, after hearing soooooo many scary stories about broken timing belt, I wonder
if anyone can tell me ------- Is there *any* sign when the timing belt is going
to fail? Or, *only* mechanics can tell the condition of the belt?
--Linda Electrical & Computer Engineering
lin...@rice.edu Rice University
Dennis J. Holt
>if anyone can tell me ----- Is there *any* sign when the timing belt is going
>to fail? Or, *only* mechanics can tell the condition of the belt?
>
>--Linda Electrical & Computer Engineering
There's no 100% reliable method to tell when a rubber band will break but
most cars include an easily removed top cover so you can gain access to
the indentation marks on the camshaft pulley that is pushed by the timing
belt. You can examine te belt for obvious frays, looseness, as well as
any wear on the underside rubber teeth. If there is no sign of wear, it
doesn't mean it won't break tomorrow but it probably will not. You
really shouldn't have to replace a timing belt before the suggested
replacement interval as most of them will last much longer than that.
If you're totally risk adverse to belt failure, buy something with a chain.
David Simunov
- Honda sent my brother a letter warning of timing belt problems on
they're early 4 valve/cylinder engines. Seems Honda used the same belt
for 12 & 16 valve motors. Consequently, you will hear of MANY Honda
& Acura timing belt failures. I know of about 6 Acura Integra incidents
myself...bent valves and all.
- My cousin & his girlfriend both lost timing belts on their "his 'n'
her" 1985 Camrys. Both around 70,000 miles. No valve damage.
- I did a 'belt on a 1980? Ford Courier after it broke....no valve damage.
- I abandoned my theory partially & replaced my '88 MR2 belt at 55,000
miles.
I still feel that bullshit flows at the local mechanic shop & ESPECIALLY
at the dealerships when it comes to maintenance recommendations.
x
o10...@a81.corp.mot.com
Porter) writes:
deletions
>
> I broke a timing belt in my first Mazda B2000 at about 70000 miles.
No
> engine damage.. just real inconvient.. 100 miles from home and the
only
> garage around did not know anything about "them foriegn trucks but
it looks
> like you broke the gumband" (yes that is a quote...).
>
My Mazda B2600i uses a timing chain, not belts. Though the
chain/gears are detectable (some noise) I'd much rather have them
than timing belts. True, it is possible for chains to break,
particularly if the engine is abused, but they generally can be
relied on (in my experience) to last at least as long as the engine.
I also prefer vehicles without "struts", which (like timing belts)
are less costly for the manufacturer but more costly to maintain
(replace) and less satisfactory to me.
Tony
Skip Winitsky
: I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
: (I'd like to compile some data and will post the results later)
: I had a 1983 Honda Civic, with a 5 sp. It went ~170k miles without
: ever breaking the timing belt. My Uncle's 1986 Buick Park Avenue has
: over 100k miles (Automatic), without breaking the timing belt. None
: of my friends (work and social) has every broken a timing belt. In
: fact, the only sources of broken timing belt stories are: auto-shops,
: dealerships, and friend of a friend of a friend who has a broken one
: once.
: Harley Davidson uses a similar belt to drive its 800 pound motorcycles
: in place of a chain. Now if a rubber belt is stong enough to drive a
: 800 pound bike for usually 10's of thousands of miles, wouldn't you think
: it's strong enough to last for a life time when used to drive a couple
: of cam shaft, which probably offer resistance equivalent to about 20 pounds?
: My theory is that timing belt breaking is a scare story cooked up by
: people who want you to spend $2-300 every 60k miles, so that the auto-
: service industry can have a few billion dollars more business. After all,
: the timing and valves were supposed to be adjusted anyway, why not add one
: more item while the valve cover is off.
: I want to know if you have had a timing belt broken before, if so,
: which car was it (make, model, year, etc), transmission type (which
: affects engine rpm), mileage (highway miles, local miles, average
: speed), whether you are throttle happy, how high do you rev your
: engine before shifting, climate (hot air presumably makes plastic
: deteriorate faster), etc. All the variables that you think may
: effect the life of a timing belt.
: It's important that that you respond even if you have not had a broken
Patrick F Kennedy
>
> : I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
> : (I'd like to compile some data and will post the results later)
>
>
> : And please be honest.
>
>
1987 Merkur XR4Ti (don't laugh): belt broke when starting, no damage.
Repaired for $250 at Ford dealer (don't laugh) in Beverly Hills
(don't laugh).But luckily the extended warranty I purchased when I bought it used (don't laugh), saved me $90.
Mark Shaw
|> My theory is that timing belt breaking is a scare story cooked up by
|> people who want you to spend $2-300 every 60k miles, so that the auto-
|> service industry can have a few billion dollars more business. After all,
|> the timing and valves were supposed to be adjusted anyway, why not add one
|> more item while the valve cover is off.
Obviously you are of the school of thought that says, "never replace anything
until it actually breaks." My father-in-law subscribes to this and has spent
tons of money repairing extremely expensive final failures that halt the car
dead in it's tracks.
The problem with timing belts (or chains for that matter) is not just that they
may break. I have had two experiences with 81K and 120K VW water-cooled engines
where the belt wore enough to skip one or more teeth in the timing setup. In
one case the engine could crank without damage, but not run continuously. In
the other case the engine was running at less than normal power output, wasting
gas and slowly burning its valves.
Take your pick, slow destruction or catastrophic failure.
When you consider that replacement of the timing belt every 60,000 miles is
less than 0.5 cent per mile in overall costs; versus rebuilding an engine
every 150,000 miles is about 1 cent mile -- what's the point in waiting for
the failure? Besides, you CANNOT predict the failure point, all you can do
is predict the minimum service life.
I personally would rather schedule when my car is out of service for maintenance
than wait for the unknow day it will die in the worst possible situation.
Why is it that people who spend $9-22K for a car will get all bent out of shape
when they are asked to spend $200-300 every 4-5 years?
Mark
paulhicks
It was on one of the coldest days of the year here in Indiana,
I think it was about -10F without the wind chill! I was lucky,
the natives here are very friendly and I was able to get a ride
to the nearest plubic phone.
I generally drive the car between 2K and 3K rpm, its a manual transmission.
I took it to a local mechanic (who I don't use any more because of
subsequent problems) and it cost about $200, there was no damage to
the valves.
Oh, the car had about 120K miles on it, but I bought it with 100K,
so I don't know about the previous history, although the belt
has Japanese writting on it so it was probably origional.
Paul
--
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "...and on the eigth day god created the Sauter Mean Diameter." |
| - D.W.Senser |
+-Paul G. Hick...@mace.cc.purdue.edu-or-phicks@mn.ecn.purdue.edu-+
George Goble
>I've had the same "conspiracy" theory for years until:
1990 Pontiac Transsport (1st one sold in IN) 3.1L automatic.
I just had the timing chain & 2 gears replaced @ 60,000 miles @ the
dealer.. about $300 for parts and labor.. The dealer tried to talk
me out of it.. said they almost never change timing chains..
Orig chain was running fine, and looked visually ok.. I kept the
chain & gears.. might have some lab here analyze it for metal fatigue
for kicks?
If somebody has one break, who will take it to the dealer :) ?
Does anybody know if the pistons hit the valves in this engine?
thanks in advance
--ghg
Bob Stone
the time. No engine damage (body damage from the redneck tow truck driver).
1984 Honda Prelude, stick: No failures, as belt was changed at around 85K
miles (car currently has about 125K).
Paul Land
put at least 60K on each of them (and bought none new), and I've yet to
break a belt. I've heard the horror stories, and I know now how to
diagnose the problem if it happens (have your friend turn the key over
while you look down the oil filler tube at the cams and see if they turn).
My friendly Volvo mechanic insists I should have it done "soon" (Ingrid
has 107000 miles). I'm not so sure.
This may be a distant relative of the Long Term Financing Conspiracy
Theory, which holds that if you limited auto financing to realistic terms
of 4 years or less, Detroit would go out of business.
PL/EugeneOR
Richers, Nikolaj
(Dwayne Clipperton) writes...
>I have a 2.5L K-car with ~265K's (about 165K miles) and
>is on it's second belt. Does anyone know if this engine
>will self-destruct if the belt breaks? The first belt
>was removed due to excessive noise.
I just replaced the timing belt on my 2.5 K-Car yesterday. I can't give you
a conclusive answer, but the Hanyes manual I used does _not_ mention that
a broken timing belt can give you 'headaches.'
One thing I haven't read in this thread yet is that maladjusted or old and
stretched timing belts can wreak havoc with your timing. I replaced my
belt because I kept loosing power, despite having the timing reset. Not
to mention a rough idle, poorer mileage, etc. And go figure, every tooth
on the belt had cracks at the base, which you could see only if the belt
was turned inside out--this on a car with 85k kilometres or 53 kmiles.
Considering the timing belt is what keeps the engine's top and bottom
working in unison, a replacement at regular intervals certainly is
cheap insurance.
Nikolaj
__________
Nikolaj Peddie-Richers, Peterborough, Canada, pi...@blaze.trentu.ca
Kennis
>
>if anyone can tell me ------- Is there *any* sign when the timing belt is going
>to fail? Or, *only* mechanics can tell the condition of the belt?
>
until there is sign.
You (if you're willing to do) should be able to check the belt by
removing the belt cover. Just take a look to see if there is crack
or even breakage.
--
-----------------------------------
Kennis '58 '62 '70, and ...
kmc...@descartes.uwaterloo.ca '94, BRAZIL!!!
-----------------------------------
Thomas V. Myers
> In article <30k467$a...@inews.intel.com> Owen Lee, ol...@cad629.intel.com
> writes:
> >My theory is that timing belt breaking is a scare story cooked up by
> >people who want you to spend $2-300 every 60k miles, so that the auto-
> >service industry can have a few billion dollars more business. After
> all,
> >the timing and valves were supposed to be adjusted anyway, why not add
> one
> >more item while the valve cover is off.
> 1: Survey size for my family = 3 Accords, 1 Civic, 1 CRX. VW/Porsche
> 914's (VW Bugs) are pushrod engines, so they don't count. Don't know
> about RX-7s.
Don't pay anybody to replace the timing belts in an RX-7. They don't even
have a camshaft (or valves for that matter!) and the distributor(s) (Some had
two) are driven directly from the 'crankshaft' (which doesn't look like a
crankshaft!).
> 2: 1 belt broke. At about 110K on 1 Accord. No bent valves (by some
> miracle!!) but it turned out (shortly thereafter) that the head had
> cracked.
> The car's been sitting since, and will probably be junked soon.
> Also: In many (most??) cars, changing the timing belt is just a
> *little*
> more involved than popping off the valve cover, and yanking the belt...
> On
> the Hondas (early-80s Accords, late-80s-early-90s Civics) you have to
> remove
> one of the engine mounts to take the belt off. Not exactly a "while
> you're
> in there" job.
> There are a lot of cars out there that *will* bend valves when the
> timing
> belt goes. Many more that *may* bend valves, unless you're phenomenally
> lucky.
> Bent valves are expensive. The aforementioned 944 valve job is, I think,
> in
> the neighborhood of $3000. So another $100 or so every 60K miles
> (sometimes
> less!) is pretty cheap insurance.
It seems that expensive engines bend valves when the belt breaks, but cheap
engines don't. Go figure! Mechanically, it makes sense, but it still looks
like a 'conspiracy'! ;-)
Cheers, Tom
--
Tom Myers : tvm...@icdc.delcoelect.com
Christopher P. Yee
--
I believe that thereis no way of telling when a rubber timing belt is about to
fail until it's too late. If you are lucky, there might be teeth missing from
the belt, but It almost time for the belt to fail completely, but at that
time, the belt has already slipped and the potential for damage has already
occured. The best bet is to follow your car's maintenance schedule, which
usually requires that the belt be changed around 60,000 miles. The best way
of determining the condition of the belt is how many miles the car has been
driven.
For the record, I have had 2 friends have their mid to late 1980's Ford
Escorts belts break at around 67,000 miles. The result was a $2000 repair
job.
I had a friends 1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse Belt break at 65,000. --- $2000
repair.
1985 Toyota Camry - Belt broke at 75,000 --- Non-interference engine - no
damage, replaced belt.
seems to me that all the cases of broken timing belts occured after the
recommended 60,000 mile replacement schedule.
My advice, if your car recommends that the belt be changed, then CHANGE IT!
I mean you change your oil following the recommended service interval, right?
I wouldn't go and not change my oil an then have my engine fail and then blame
the manufacture for creating a conspiracy to make us buy oil and not designing
engines to run without replacing engine oil, right? That would be absurd.
-Chris
________________________________________________________________
Internet: cy...@ccs.neu.edu |Christopher P. Yee
cy...@lynx.dac.neu.edu | --- Lost somewhere in Boston
----------------------------------------------------------------
Sean Reifschneider
>>I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
>>(I'd like to compile some data and will post the results later)
>
> 944, ALL THE VALVES GET BENT. I doubt that $100 would get a
> Porsche head fixed, especially with all valves needing replacement.
This was hashed up months ago on these groups, along with another angle...
In those posts, the auto industry was also in on the conspiracy by using
belts instead of chains or cogs.
But, it's not the auto industry that requested these changes. It's the
user. Chains and cogs are noisier than belts.
Also, there are MANY cars that will crash the valves if the belt breaks.
This is another reueqst of the customer. People want more powerful,
more efficient engines. As the compression goes up, you start having
things happen in the same space in the chamber.
If you want to get around this conspiracy, BUY A MAZDA RX-7! It has no
timing belt, chain or cam because it has NO VALVES!
Why do people get cars and then expect them to work well without regular
maint? This seems to be a prevalent attitude. "I'm paying $200 per month
for this car, why should I have to pay an extra $300 every year to keep
it running?" It's cheap insurance to just DO the maint. I've never been
stranded by a car, do you think there's a reason for that?
Oh, and my mother had a belt break in her '81 Chrysler LeBaron at about 70K
miles. Luckily it didn't crash the valves. But I also knew of an Audi
that broke it's timing CHAIN at 110K miles, and Subaru's for a while had
problems with their timing belts making it to 60K miles. They fixed that
though.
Sean
--
"No early worm is giving ME the BIRD!" -- Bullwinkle J. Moose
"Smart... Subtle... And trickier than a bathtub full of jello." -- Blue
Sean Reifschneider, Inimitably Superfluous <ja...@accum.com>
I got gasoline from 7-11 and my car stopped running. New gas, ran fine.
William Lueg
I've had two break, both on vehicles with 90K miles, one of those with a
new one sitting in the hatch area waiting for the following weekend to
change it preemptively.
Car No. 1
1974 Mercury Capri
2000 cc l4
4 speed.
Normally shifted at 3,000 or before.
Broke driving 40 mph in town. Constant speed.
Car No. 2
1980 Mercury Capri
2.3 l. l4
4 speed w/ overdrive (yuk)
Same shift points generally.
Broke going constant highway speed.
I am a smooth driver.
Hope this helps.
----------
Bill Lueg -- bill...@netcom.com, 3:08:22 PM CDT, 24 Jul 1994
Liberalism: the last refuge of those who have fled logic in order to
legitimize what their feelings and whimsies tell them to do.
--
Pete Paraska
>1990 Pontiac Transsport (1st one sold in IN) 3.1L automatic.
>I just had the timing chain & 2 gears replaced @ 60,000 miles @ the
>dealer.. about $300 for parts and labor.. The dealer tried to talk
>me out of it.. said they almost never change timing chains..
>Orig chain was running fine, and looked visually ok.. I kept the
>chain & gears.. might have some lab here analyze it for metal fatigue
>for kicks?
Timing chains generally stretch before they fatigue. Stretching first upsets
the valve-to-piston timing, which can hurt performance and econony. Further
stretching can be extensive enough as to go beyond what the tensioner can make
up for, and the timing chain can jump on the sprocket(s). For
non-freewheeling engines, this can cause valves meeting pistons.
>Does anybody know if the pistons hit the valves in this engine?
>thanks in advance
>--ghg
From a list of freewheeling engines I got off r.a.t., I noted that all GM
engines are safe from damage in freewheeling condition, but that seems too
all-encompassing of an answer for me. Call the Olds dealer, if you can
believe they know their stuff.
Peter Jones
: I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
: I want to know if you have had a timing belt broken before, if so,
: which car was it (make, model, year, etc), transmission type (which
: affects engine rpm), mileage (highway miles, local miles, average
: speed), whether you are throttle happy, how high do you rev your
: engine before shifting, climate (hot air presumably makes plastic
: deteriorate faster), etc. All the variables that you think may
: effect the life of a timing belt.
: It's important that that you respond even if you have not had a broken
: timing belt, especially if your car has gone over the magical 60k mile
: mark without replacing the timing belt. Also, please include all cars
: in your family so that I can have a big database. Otherwise I will
: get only broken timing belt stories.
My car:
1985 Chrysler Lebaron GTS Turbo, 5-spd manual
I guess you would say I drive it on the revvy side, mostly local, but I've
done a lot of highway trips too.
The timing belt first broke at ~125,000 miles from normal wear, and it cost
$180 to fix. It broke again at ~154,000, but that was just two weeks after I
had it off for a valve cover gasket replacement, and my mechanic admitted he
might have damaged it, so he put on a brand new one for free.
My mom's car:
1990 Plymouth Acclaim, only ~30,000 miles, so no interesting data yet
My dad's car:
1986 Buick Park Avenue, automatic (of course), with ~115,000 miles, all
totally highway, no tioming belt replacements or problems, although I am
nagging him to look into it frequently, now. I'm not sure whether it has
a belt or not, though.
My girlfriend's dad's car (seemed relavent):
1985 Toyota Celica GT, 5-spd, timing belt had brokwn twice: at ~45,000 miles
and at ~80,000 miles
I certainly think your theory is paranoid. Although I strongly agree that
we should be very wary about what dealer and some mechanics say we should
do to our cars, the timing belt replacement recommendation is not at al
unwarranted. I've seen it break enough times, and even having that happen
is a pain enough to happen, let alone destroying your valves or even pistons
(quite fortunately, this did not happen to me).
Peter Jones
Mike A. Rintzler
>>My theory is that timing belt breaking is a scare story cooked up by
>>people who want you to spend $2-300 every 60k miles,
>My timimg belt went out.
>My dad's timimg belt went out.
>There.
>Mine was a 1982 Ford Escort with manual transmission. It went out
>at about 100,000 miles.
>My dad's was a 1985 Subarooo Wagon with manual tranny. It went out
>sometime under 100,000 miles.
<DELETED
>Darvell
My sisters Pontiac Sunbird timing belt went at 90k, and my other sisters
CRX timing belt went at 75k. I also know of someone with a Honda Accord who
changed their timing belt at 60k, but then never did after then. Her timing
belt went at 150k, taking the valves with it. Now it needs a new engine.
At $300, replace it. Save yourself the aggrivation.
-Mike
(or, get a nice GM v6 2.8l engine with gears. Then you don't have to changed
a timing belt. Just the entire engine every 60k or so. :) )
S.G.Adderson
>I want to know if you have had a timing belt broken before, if so,
>which car was it (make, model, year, etc), transmission type (which
>affects engine rpm), mileage (highway miles, local miles, average
>speed), whether you are throttle happy, how high do you rev your
>engine before shifting, climate (hot air presumably makes plastic
>deteriorate faster), etc. All the variables that you think may
>effect the life of a timing belt.
>
My first Cavalier (an '82 1600cc) went 80,000ish miles without breaking
a belt. I put a new one on when I replaced the rings and that lasted until
I sold the car.
When I bought my current Cavalier( an '87 2.0i) the guy said that he (or rather
'one of his mechanics') had replaced the belt as they 'should be replaced every
30,000 miles'. Less than two months later it shredded whilst the car was at 90
mph in the outside lane of a busy motorway. I feared the worst but this sort of
GM engine has reccessed piston heads so the valves won't touch them. Ten quid
and a few cuts and grazes later the car was back on the road.
It seems to me that the most likely cause of belt failure is when so called
mechanics don't put them back on properly. Although a friends Cavalier's belt
also went at about 80,000 miles.
For Cavaliers and cars with similar GM engines I'd recommend waiting for the
belt to go until you replace it.
Steve
DIRK BROER
>I recall, awhile ago, whilst servicing my car I overheard the owner of a
>944 Turbo complaining of the repair cost.
>
>I talked to the mechanic when the owner took off. The owner of the 944
>Turbo explicitly refused to have the Timing Belt serviced at the
>appropriate interval.
>
>The 944 Turbo's valves met the cylinder heads and all were bent. The
>estimate cost of repair was around $2500 - $3000!!!!!!
>
Some cars don't have catastrophic engine failures when the timing chain
breaks. Notably Toyotas.
It is possible to machine enough valve relief into a piston for it to clear
almost any camchaft profile - this is very common in racing motors. The
problem is when you remove significant amount of aluminum from a pistion
you can upset the balance of the engine. If you decide to have a competent
manchine shop rebuild a damaged engine - ask them about cutting valve
reliefs in the piston.
Dirk
Michael...@vos.stratus.com
@70,000 miles, my toyota camry timing belt let go, and stranded me on the
highway... the dealer replaced the belt for $200. (the tow was $100)
The suggested belt replacement interval was 50k miles.
at the next 50k mile (120k) interval, I had it replaced again.
and then again at 170k. the last replacement cost $95.00 from a
local mechanic who chose not to rip me off as the dealers are so
gladly inclined to do at any given microsecond.
the car is now at 217k miles, and needs a new belt in 3k more miles.
so.. I can probably eek out another 10k miles or so.. but I would risk
being stranded again...
if one were to follow the maint schedule "by the book" and take the car
to a dealer... it would cost $800-$1000 just in TIMING BELTS to run the car
200k miles.
this is simply a plan to keep customers feeding the dealers cash at every
50k mile interval. never mind the rusted exhaust pipes, the cheap front
wheel rotors, the lousy shocks, the guaranteed to fail steeering racks,
the certified to short circuit "com-puter module"... nor many of the other
wondrously inferior components that are glued, stapled, bolted, welded,
clamped, tied, rivited, press fitted, or otherwise part of what we spend
such an inordinately large amount of our disposable income on.
ml
Scott R. Griggs
>It seems that expensive engines bend valves when the belt breaks, but cheap
>engines don't. Go figure! Mechanically, it makes sense, but it still looks
>like a 'conspiracy'! ;-)
> Cheers, Tom
No, engines which bend their valves upon timing belt/chain breakage are
poorly designed regardless of cost. And plenty of cheap engines bend
valves, too (e.g. Ford 1.6l I4).
Scott
"Make things as simple as possible. But not simpler." --Albert Einstein
Brian Welch~
In article <25JUL199...@stdvax.gsfc.nasa.gov>, oad...@stdvax.gsfc.nasa.gov (DIRK BROER) writes:
|> In article <FLssPc...@sms.business.uwo.ca>, s5el...@sms.business.uwo.ca (Steve Elliott) writes...
|> >I recall, awhile ago, whilst servicing my car I overheard the owner of a
|> >944 Turbo complaining of the repair cost.
|> >
|> >I talked to the mechanic when the owner took off. The owner of the 944
|> >Turbo explicitly refused to have the Timing Belt serviced at the
|> >appropriate interval.
|> >
|> >The 944 Turbo's valves met the cylinder heads and all were bent. The
|> >estimate cost of repair was around $2500 - $3000!!!!!!
|> >
|>
|> Some cars don't have catastrophic engine failures when the timing chain
|> breaks. Notably Toyotas.
|>
|> It is possible to machine enough valve relief into a piston for it to clear
|> almost any camchaft profile - this is very common in racing motors. The
|> problem is when you remove significant amount of aluminum from a pistion
|> you can upset the balance of the engine.
Not to mention the amount of compression loss which is VERY important in
racing.
|> If you decide to have a competent machine shop rebuild a damaged engine -
|> ask them about cutting valve reliefs in the piston.
This would require new pistons, it is not safe for stock pistons.
Its too expensive for anything but racing.
Brian Welch
ga...@sco.com
In article <30k467$a...@inews.intel.com> ol...@cad629.intel.com (Owen Lee) writes:
>
>
>It's important that that you respond even if you have not had a broken
>timing belt, especially if your car has gone over the magical 60k mile
>mark without replacing the timing belt. Also, please include all cars
>in your family so that I can have a big database. Otherwise I will
>get only broken timing belt stories.
>
>
82 Toyota Celica GT
130K (really about 140k miles due to tires) miles
Timing Chain so I never have to worry about timing belts
89 BMW M3
24k miles
Timing Chain so I never have to worry about timing belts
Gary
Ps. Does anyone know of the GMC Typhoon has a timing belt or chain?
Thank
Hi Ho Silver
$ever breaking the timing belt. My Uncle's 1986 Buick Park Avenue has
$over 100k miles (Automatic), without breaking the timing belt. None
$of my friends (work and social) has every broken a timing belt. In
$fact, the only sources of broken timing belt stories are: auto-shops,
$dealerships, and friend of a friend of a friend who has a broken one
$once.
Well then, I'll just throw a spanner into that one. My dad suffered
a broken timing belt in the late '80s on a car I used to drive.
So much for the conspiracy "it never happens" theory.
--
______________________________________________
/ Hi Ho Silver, who likes the idea of having \ __________________________
\ SNTF and large h00ters in the same package \/ sil...@bokonon.UUCP \
\______________________________________________/ ...{!uunet}!bokonon!silver \
Robert M. Johnson
>
>: I have a timing-belt-conspiracy-theory, please read and comment:
>
My comment is: (1) a 1983 Toyota Corolla, timing belt broke at 160,000
miles, on the freeway. No engine damage. Cost about $100 to fix (plus the
tow). Since a busted belt causes no engine damage, I figure I will just wait
until it goes again. I am never far from home in my 1983 Toyota.
(2) I also have a Porsche 944 Turbo, and if one does not change the
timing belt every 60,000 miles or so, one is looking for trouble. When the
timing belt goes, the valves are down when they should be up and the pistons
crunch them. This happens because the Porsche engine is high-compression -
the piston leaves a very small space at the top of the cylinder when it is
fully up.
I have the timing belt replaced regularly on the Porsche - $180 last time
I did it.
- Bob Johnson
George Blair
1985 Chrysler New Yorker
replaced belt this July at 97,000.
it didn't break BUT the teeth were stripped out at the crankshaft
1980 Toyota Celica Supra
has a chain so shouldn't be a problem
1981 Toyota Celica
has chain so same as above
George
--
*
* | | geo...@netcom.com (home)
| |_| | *
|___| |_| | geo...@bopper2.phx.mcd.mot.com (work)
` | |___|
_| |_` George Blair Motorola Computer Group Tempe Arizona
-------------
Donald Teed
>In <30na1b$4...@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bx...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Donna A. Lilly) writes:
>>You know the make and mileage of my car already and the fact that it has a
>>double timing chain design, so I'll just mention that I think a really
>>excellent design for an automobile engine includes not using any rubber,
>>plastic or cardboard engine components which are load bearing.
>What's the problems with belts? Timing chains have to be replaced too during
>normal maintenance. At least on a high-performance engine like a Alfa Romeo
>or a Maserati. Chains are more expensive than belts, heavier (increased
>inertia!!), noisierand some other things. If a car is well designed, changing
>a belt is a matter of minutes. So what's the big deal? Chains can break too
>('73 Caddy, I can still hear my father cursing :)
I think you have come closer to the actual conspiracy. It is not that
the maintenance is advised, but that the rate charged for this
is by the flat hour rate. No matter how easy or difficult the job
is on your particular vehicle, most shops charge by the industry
flat rate of the number of hours of labour, regardless of how
easy it might be in your case. This means you could be paying
for 3 hours of labour when the job really takes 1 hour. The
books are going to be slanted towards the "worst case scenario" so
that the shop is not going to loose money on a car that is not easy to
work on (how many parts must be removed varies from vehicle to vehicle).
If the work done was charged on the actual time for the job, or
more specifically for your own model and year, it would be
cheaper in many cases.
--Donald Teed
Damodaran Chittibabu
My friend's 84 Celica GT. Bought @ 45K miles. Its now @ 100K,
timing belt is still going.
I have a 90 Prizm, Auto, bought in Dec '93 @ 60K miles. It has
71K miles now. Having followed this thread, I am almost convinced
that I need to replace the belt.
> For Cavaliers and cars with similar GM engines I'd recommend
> waiting for the belt to go until you replace it.
90 Prizm ?
Thanks,
Damo
--
____________________________________________________________________________
Damo Chittibabu INTERNET: c2...@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com
Software Engineer UUCP: deaes!c23dc
Body & Chassis, MS-CT70C PHONE: (317) 451 5455
Adam Felson
! to a dealer... it would cost $800-$1000 just in TIMING BELTS to run the car
! 200k miles.
Gee... how much is gas for 200K miles going to cost? $1000 doesn't sound
like so much then.
Rob Lesieur
[bi-zzz bi-zzz bi-zzz bi-zzz bi-zzz]
: I want to know if you have had a timing belt broken before, if so,
: which car was it (make, model, year, etc), transmission type (which
: affects engine rpm), mileage (highway miles, local miles, average
: speed), whether you are throttle happy, how high do you rev your
: engine before shifting, climate (hot air presumably makes plastic
: deteriorate faster), etc. All the variables that you think may
: effect the life of a timing belt.
1988 Celica ST, Fla Car, driven hard, stick, replaced belt at 90K, was told
it had cracks in it.
[friend's] 1990 BMW 325, stick, Fla car, ~50K, broke the day she made her last
payment, ~1.5K to fix [she is still in therapy ;^) ]
--
Rob Lesieur
ro...@cbis.com
=> My opinions and statements do not necessarily <=
=> reflect the opinions or policies of my employer <=
Tom Penny
'85 Pontiac 1000, sold at 40k miles, no problems
'80 Chevette, timing belt replaced at somewhere around 60k no problems
when sold at 76k
'88 Mustang, timing belt replaced at 60,100 miles (two days late, aw
shucks), car is now at 77,900, and I just re-tensioned the timing belt
due to excessive noise. It appeared to have slackened just enough to
cause some "twanging" to occur, otherwise no problems
'87 S10 Pickup has timing chain, and I can't hear a thing from it
cause it's drowned out by the radiator fan and the serpentine belt on the
accessories (those notches make NOISE!)
The mustang visits the yellow area on the tach regularly (ok, daily)
The Chevette was just plain abused, and loved it (I'm sure that clutch
poppin', high revvin', gear grindin driving I did had nothing to do with
the heater core leak, but may have been related to the tranny poppin'
out of reverse all the time)
Nothing like an underpowered car with a standard :-)
- Tom
Donna A. Lilly
In a previous article, ga...@sco.COM () says:
>Yes, chains break too, but it's not as likely. It is more common for a timing
>chain to last for the life of the car as it is for a timing belt to break.
>Timing chains can break (heck, anything can break in a car), but it is much less
>likely!
Timing chains occasionally do break, but other cars have dual timing chain
designs (i.e. double wide, side by side, two thick chain arrangements).
I'd be surprised to hear of anyone that knows of one of these EVER breaking
(if someone does, I would suggest such a case could only be the result of a
very poor example of this design, or perhaps an aggrivated tensioner
problem, etc.).
--
Donna Lilly
Cleveland, OH
ga...@sco.com
In article <CtC6B...@news.tudelft.nl> m.h.w...@wbmt.tudelft.nl (Marcus Bonse) writes:
!In <30na1b$4...@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bx...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Donna A. Lilly) writes:
!>You know the make and mileage of my car already and the fact that it has a
!>double timing chain design, so I'll just mention that I think a really
!>excellent design for an automobile engine includes not using any rubber,
!>plastic or cardboard engine components which are load bearing.
!
!What's the problems with belts? Timing chains have to be replaced too during
!normal maintenance. At least on a high-performance engine like a Alfa Romeo
!or a Maserati. Chains are more expensive than belts, heavier (increased
!inertia!!), noisierand some other things. If a car is well designed, changing
!a belt is a matter of minutes. So what's the big deal? Chains can break too
!('73 Caddy, I can still hear my father cursing :)
Tim Flint
I just test drove a 1983 Porsche 944, and I need some advice on the
car since I have never owned or driven a 944 until today.
Here are the facts and my observations.
* 1983 Porsche 944 (no turbo)
* 37K original miles
* Price: $6000 (he will not go down in price)
The paint and interior are in great shape(minor cracks in dash)
ITEMS OF CONCERN:
- Around 70 MPH the car develops a slight vibration in the steering
wheel. The car still feels very stable and tracks well when this is
occuring but the vibration is a little annoying. My guess is that it
might be a wheel balance problem.
Does anyone know of wheel vibration being a problem in these Porsches?
- At idle the car picks up a vibration from the motor mount. The owner
claims this is a weakness in the design, and new updated mounts are
available.
Does anyone know how much parts would cost to replace the mounts?
Final question: Does this car sound like a good deal?
Any response is appreciated..
Thanks,
Tim
Donald John Bernis
> Owen Lee (ol...@cad629.intel.com) wrote:
> : I want to know if you have had a timing belt broken before, if so,
> : which car was it (make, model, year, etc), transmission type (which
> : affects engine rpm), mileage (highway miles, local miles, average
> : speed), whether you are throttle happy, how high do you rev your
> : engine before shifting, climate (hot air presumably makes plastic
> : deteriorate faster), etc. All the variables that you think may
> : effect the life of a timing belt.
>
pistons that major damage is always done when the timing belt or
chain lets go.
Russ Poffenberger
: In article <FLssPc...@sms.business.uwo.ca>, s5el...@sms.business.uwo.ca (Steve Elliott) writes...
I replaced the one in my BMW 325i at about 80K, it probably would have gone
in another 10-20K, but I think these motors are not free-wheeling and would
suffer damage if it did break. I would rather replace it early.
Russ Poffenberger DOMAIN: pof...@San-Jose.ate.slb.com
Schlumberger Technologies ATE UUCP: {uunet,decwrl,amdahl}!sjsca4!poffen
1601 Technology Drive CIS: 72401,276
San Jose, Ca. 95110 Voice: (408)437-5254 FAX: (408)437-5246
Mark Bramblett
>
> - At idle the car picks up a vibration from the motor mount. The owner
> claims this is a weakness in the design, and new updated mounts are
> available.
>
> Does anyone know how much parts would cost to replace the mounts?
>
You want to use the newer 944 Turbo motor mount(s) as a replacement on an early
944. They run about $200.00 each. If you have them installed by a legitimate
shop, labor is between $55-65 an hour. If you want to put them in yourself,
check out Automotion 1-800-777-8881 (noconnection here just a happy
customer), they have a 20% off parts sale annually that will take affect
around August 16th.
Good Luck...
Mark
!!=======================================================================!!
!! Mark Bramblett !!
!! The Wollongong Group !!
!! 2010 Corporate Ridge Drive, Suite 550, McLean, Va. 22102 !!
!! email: bra...@eco.twg.com phone: 703-847-4500 fax: 703-847-4520 !!
!! !!
!! "Yes men! I don't want any 'yes men' around me, I want people !!
!! to tell me the truth, even if it costs them their jobs." - !!
!! SAM GOLDWYN !!
!!=======================================================================!!
Mark Brindle
: Omar Lari (Omar...@bunter.dartmouth.edu) wrote:
: : Hey, speaking of timing belts - I remember that when the timing belt on
: : our 1986 Nova went (lost its teeth), the mechanic said that it's routine
: : to replace the water pump (? I believe that's what it was - a pump
: : of some sort) at the same time as the timing belt. Is that right, or was the
: : mechanic out to make a fast buck? Just curious...
: Might as well as long as the front of the engine is apart and you're paying
: him to do the work. I'd have him do it even though the original one was
: still okay. Now, if you are on a limited budget and do most of the work
: yourself, then maybe you'd opt not.
Don't know about '86 Nova, but on some cars the water-pump is driven
by the T-belt. Since pump-seizure is a fairly common failure mode,
it's a *VERY* good idea to replace the pump along with the T-belt on
those cars.
a brain-dead design,
Mark
Wes Fujii
: Hey, speaking of timing belts - I remember that when the timing belt on
: our 1986 Nova went (lost its teeth), the mechanic said that it's routine
: to replace the water pump (? I believe that's what it was - a pump
: of some sort) at the same time as the timing belt. Is that right, or was the
: mechanic out to make a fast buck? Just curious...
Might as well as long as the front of the engine is apart and you're paying
him to do the work. I'd have him do it even though the original one was
still okay. Now, if you are on a limited budget and do most of the work
yourself, then maybe you'd opt not.
Wes Fujii
________________________________________________________________
___ ___ ___
/ / / // /
/ /__/ // / A real motor is an Oldsmobile Rocket 455
/ HURST // / "This is NOT the new generation of Olds"
/ / / // /_______
/__/ /__// // ___ \
/ // / \ \ Wes "BANZAI" Fujii
/ // /OLDS/ / Boise, Idaho
/ / \ \___/ / we...@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com
/__/ \_______/
Omar Lari
our 1986 Nova went (lost its teeth), the mechanic said that it's routine
to replace the water pump (? I believe that's what it was - a pump
of some sort) at the same time as the timing belt. Is that right, or was the
mechanic out to make a fast buck? Just curious...
Peace,
Omar Lari
Gerry Palo
Donald Teed <don...@sq.sq.com> wrote:
>
>I think you have come closer to the actual conspiracy. It is not that
>the maintenance is advised, but that the rate charged for this
>is by the flat hour rate. No matter how easy or difficult the job
>is on your particular vehicle, most shops charge by the industry
>flat rate of the number of hours of labour, regardless of how
>easy it might be in your case. This means you could be paying
>for 3 hours of labour when the job really takes 1 hour. The
>books are going to be slanted towards the "worst case scenario" so
>that the shop is not going to loose money on a car that is not easy to
>work on (how many parts must be removed varies from vehicle to vehicle).
>If the work done was charged on the actual time for the job, or
>more specifically for your own model and year, it would be
>cheaper in many cases.
This state of things may also be due to customer demand. How would
you react to the mechanic who told you that yours was an exceptional
case which took six hours instead of one? Most people won't stand
for that. So this leads to flat rate pricing, which in turn leads
to inflated flat rate pricing in the book. Unlike, say, a home
improvement contractor, for whom the details of the work involved
are pretty easy to see, the mechanic can't predict very well what
he will find when he opens it up. This is why the book so easily
becomes the absolute authority. Of course the book does not
guarantee that you won't get a phone call a three in the afternoon
with the news that they found a problem in another component that
will cost an additional $475. But for the most part the up front
estimate provides a layer of protection against the unknown.
For me the conspiracy is not in the flat rate pricing but in the
whole way the manufacturers build their cars. It is as if they go
out of their way to make them difficult to repair. Yes, much of
this is also due to customer demand for things like style, performance,
etc. But there seems to be no attempt at all to include ease of
maintenance and repair in the design, use standard components, etc.
There is really no incentive to do it. Most people don't want
to know about it, and reviews don't touch on it. Just give me all
those neat digital readouts. Never mind that it will cost me $95
to replace a dash light. (And, according to the book, it will cost
$190 to replace two, even though the panel has to be removed
only once).
I think the last attempt to design an easy-to-repair car was the
old Citroens with their bolted on body panels. But then they needed
it, as they were always breaking down. They were true "lemons"
indeed. And anyway, who cared? Just a few geeks.
Final conspiratorial shot: Computers. Everywhere but in automobiles,
computers serve to simplify and reduce maintenance costs. With
cars, it costs more to diagnose with them and it costs a bundle to
replace them. To me the use of computers in cars, whatever their
benefit, which is considerable, has also become a gold mine for the
car companies and mechanics in terms of maintenance.
Big irony: When you learn about object oriented design and programming,
they inevitably use the example of the automoble to explain reusable
components simplified design, inheritance, polymorphism etc.
What they don't teach you about the car makers is the science of
building in incompatibility, complexity, unreusability, etc. That
is a matter of economics.
Gerry Palo
(No disclaimer necessary. My very own personal netcom account)
Tom Penny
: Final conspiratorial shot: Computers. Everywhere but in automobiles,
: computers serve to simplify and reduce maintenance costs. With
: cars, it costs more to diagnose with them and it costs a bundle to
: replace them. To me the use of computers in cars, whatever their
: benefit, which is considerable, has also become a gold mine for the
: car companies and mechanics in terms of maintenance.
Ummm.. Computers HAVE simplified and reduced maintenance costs. Every
try to trouble shoot an early 80's emmission system with a carberator?
all those cars ran like sh*t, and it was usually due to one component
being slighty off tune.
Today, with Fuel Injection and computers, cars meet the same emissions
regulations and they ARE simpler (fewer vacuum hoses and their associated
widgets) and in a lot of cases, the computer will tell you whats wrong.
Heck, on some Fords, it will even tell you which cylinder is misfiring!
No, you don't need to hook it up to a mainframe either, it has a built in
diagnostic routine and the error codes can be read with a voltmeter.
As for re-usable parts, my Chevy 2.8 in my pickup is used in just about
every GM model in the 80s, my Mustang 2.3 can also be found in Ranger
pickups and Thunderbird turbo coops. Not to mention various things
like spark plugs, windshield washer pumps, brake master cylinders, etc,
that are the same or similar for nearly every GM car. If I were a
conspirator, I'd start by inventing a $20 spark plug that only fit
my car, and oh, I'm sorry, we didn't meet our 50,000 mile durability
goal, you should change them every 20,000 miles now. Yes, you'll
also need to buy a special torx spark plug socket to get it out.
I do buy cars based on their servicability, and they are out there if
you look (Toyatas, especially corollas, appear to be very easy to service).
What also helps is if the car has been unchanged for a number of years,
such as Chevettes (same body '80-'87), Mustangs (same body '79-93),
Pickups (same body for 10-15 years). No, these cars are not the
latest and greatest, and they've taken a lot of heat for it too. But
there are lots of parts out there, easy to find and cheap!
Finally, when you design a car to need a tune-up every 100,000 miles,
versus 30,000, easy maintenance is less of an issue. I can't even
remember the days when points had to be adjusted and spark plugs re-gapped
every 7,500 miles, so it's very easy to complain about having to
spend 10 minutes taking off stuff to get to the plugs once every
two years.
Flame off :-)
- Tom (pen...@cs.wpi.edu)
Andy Green
: Hey, speaking of timing belts - I remember that when the timing belt on
A lot of stuff has to get pulled off in order to access the timing belt
on many cars, and long-term expendables like water pumps are often in
the way. You can save big labor bucks by doing both jobs at the same
time, though it varies from car to car. What you heard is not unusual.
On our li'l K wagon, it'll get new motor mounts with its next timing
belt for that reason.
-- Andy
Gerry Palo
>Gerry Palo (pa...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: Final conspiratorial shot: Computers. Everywhere but in automobiles,
>: computers serve to simplify and reduce maintenance costs. With
>: cars, it costs more to diagnose with them and it costs a bundle to
>: replace them. To me the use of computers in cars, whatever their
>: benefit, which is considerable, has also become a gold mine for the
>: car companies and mechanics in terms of maintenance.
>
>try to trouble shoot an early 80's emmission system with a carberator?
>all those cars ran like sh*t, and it was usually due to one component
>being slighty off tune.
>
[Good rundown of how computers have improved quality and lowered
maintenance costs deleted]
You're right. Indictment withdrawn about the computers.
>Finally, when you design a car to need a tune-up every 100,000 miles,
>versus 30,000, easy maintenance is less of an issue. I can't even
>remember the days when points had to be adjusted and spark plugs re-gapped
>every 7,500 miles, so it's very easy to complain about having to
>spend 10 minutes taking off stuff to get to the plugs once every
>two years.
Someone once suggested that in addition to technological competition,
one reason why cars have gotten so much better is the heavy weight of
EPA emission requirements. For example, they forced the manufacturers
to improve their machining so the valves were seated and the cars in
perfect tune off the assembly line. I remember the old days when
you had to drive 30 mph for so many miles and then not go over 50 for
quite a while during the "break in" period. The addition of computers
since the EPA standards were implemented would seem also to confirm
this theory. Being something of a right wing troglodyte myself I am l
loathe to suggest that something good could come out of Big Brother, but
maybe this is one of their lucky hits.
Gerry Palo
Dan Lacey
> Omar Lari (Omar...@bunter.dartmouth.edu) wrote:
> : Hey, speaking of timing belts - I remember that when the timing belt
on
> : our 1986 Nova went (lost its teeth), the mechanic said that it's
routine
> : to replace the water pump (? I believe that's what it was - a pump
> : of some sort) at the same time as the timing belt. Is that right, or
was the
> : mechanic out to make a fast buck? Just curious...
>
paying
> him to do the work. I'd have him do it even though the original one was
> still okay. Now, if you are on a limited budget and do most of the work
> yourself, then maybe you'd opt not.
>
> Wes Fujii
Have to agree; good idea. Labor is the same price. If your timing
belt/chain was that worn, the pump may/may not follow. I replaced my pump
at about 60,000 miles (when I still had the car). When they go, water
pours out everywhere! Hard to get it to a gargage without a tow!
Sounds like the guy was doing you a favor!
Woodrow W. Baker
I have a 78 Plymoth Fury with a 318. I got it when it had 64K miles on it
and have since put 140K+ on it. I've never had a problem with a timing
chain. The motor has over 200K on it currently, and is starting to leak
oil at the rear seal. I just keep the oil changed every 3000 miles like
clockwork, and the little bugger just keeps running.
Sure the body is rather kinked up, but it runs well.
Cheers
Woody Baker
318's are forever.
wo...@knapper.cactus.org
Robert King
>Well, get a decent car.
>I have a 78 Plymoth Fury with a 318. I got it when it had 64K miles on it
>and have since put 140K+ on it. I've never had a problem with a timing
>chain. The motor has over 200K on it currently, and is starting to leak
>oil at the rear seal. I just keep the oil changed every 3000 miles like
>clockwork, and the little bugger just keeps running.
>Sure the body is rather kinked up, but it runs well.
Nice. Too bad the 318 doesn't have a timing belt, that way your message
might apply to this thread.
---
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Robert A. King | |
| Systems Software Engineer | |
| Kodak Health Imaging Systems | "I drank WHAT?!?" -- Socrates |
| | |
| ki...@khan.khis.com | |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| The opinions expressed here arn't even mine, much less my employer's! |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Dongho Lee
The milage is 140000 miles.
I wonder if the timing belt is broken, does it damage the engin?
I mean does the piston bent valves?
Thanks, in advance..