VW vs. Honda reliability
Dina...@aol.com
Can anyone give me some feedback on VW reliability vs. Honda reliability?
All I get from my father or brother when I tell them I'm thinking of
buying a VW is grunts and stories of how they heard how VWs are so
unreliable (i.e. electrical problems). I'm currently looking at the '98
Passat and the '98 Accord coupe. Both seem to be in great demand, and
honestly I'm leaning towards the Passat, but I need ammo to convince my
father so he doesn't give me the father knows best routine! All the cars
in our family (including my old car are japanese--Lexus, Honda, Acura--
except my dad's which is a mercedes. My family's a little biased so
someone throw me a lifeboat!
Any information for/against either make is appreciated!
Thanks!
Dina
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
netman
Dina...@aol.com wrote:
> Can anyone give me some feedback on VW reliability vs. Honda reliability?
> All I get from my father or brother when I tell them I'm thinking of
> buying a VW is grunts and stories of how they heard how VWs are so
> unreliable (i.e. electrical problems). I'm currently looking at the '98
> Passat and the '98 Accord coupe. Both seem to be in great demand, and
> honestly I'm leaning towards the Passat, but I need ammo to convince my
> father so he doesn't give me the father knows best routine! All the cars
> in our family (including my old car are japanese--Lexus, Honda, Acura--
> except my dad's which is a mercedes. My family's a little biased so
> someone throw me a lifeboat!
>
> Any information for/against either make is appreciated!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Dina
The reliability for the Passat in the US is unknown.....Honda has very good
ratings here.....it will take time and lots of money for the Passat to
equal....
Nevets
On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:22:18 -0600, Dina...@aol.com wrote:
>Can anyone give me some feedback on VW reliability vs. Honda reliability?
>All I get from my father or brother when I tell them I'm thinking of
>buying a VW is grunts and stories of how they heard how VWs are so
>unreliable (i.e. electrical problems). I'm currently looking at the '98
>Passat and the '98 Accord coupe. Both seem to be in great demand, and
>honestly I'm leaning towards the Passat, but I need ammo to convince my
>father so he doesn't give me the father knows best routine! All the cars
>in our family (including my old car are japanese--Lexus, Honda, Acura--
>except my dad's which is a mercedes. My family's a little biased so
>someone throw me a lifeboat!
Who cares?
The important thing is whether you like driving the car.
rwh...@nr.infi.net
In <8801497...@dejanews.com>, Dina...@aol.com writes:
>Can anyone give me some feedback on VW reliability vs. Honda reliability?
>All I get from my father or brother when I tell them I'm thinking of
>buying a VW is grunts and stories of how they heard how VWs are so
>unreliable (i.e. electrical problems). I'm currently looking at the '98
>Passat and the '98 Accord coupe. Both seem to be in great demand, and
>honestly I'm leaning towards the Passat, but I need ammo to convince my
>father so he doesn't give me the father knows best routine! All the cars
>in our family (including my old car are japanese--Lexus, Honda, Acura--
>except my dad's which is a mercedes. My family's a little biased so
>someone throw me a lifeboat!
>
>
>Thanks!
>
>Dina
>
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
The 1998 Passat is not just a minor upgrade on the 1997 Passat [U.S. model
year dating] While not as good as the Honda Accord in reliability, the 1997 Passat
was listed by Consumer Reports as "above average" in reliability, which was a
prerequisite for getting their "Consumer Union Best Buy" recommendation, which
it got. The Golf and the Jetta turned in excellent performance on their evaluations
but were denied the Best Buy because of BELOW average reliability ratings. VW
subsequently closed the Mexican factory which assembled them for some months
to improve the production process. Now, they too may be presumed to be starting
afresh with a "different product" to be evaluated for reliability.
The Passat has always been, and continues to be, assembled in Germany,
and possibly for that reason, while not as outstanding as the Accord, reliability has
not been a problem.
--------------------------------------------------------------
"I would predict that there are far greater mistakes waiting
to be made by someone with your obvious talent for it."
Orac to Vila. [City at the Edge of the World.]
-----------------------------------------------
R.W. Hutchinson. | rwh...@nr.infi.net
Seth Bowden
In article <3479624d....@news.visi.com>, she...@yuck.net says...
[snip]
> Who cares?
>
> The important thing is whether you like driving the car.
Yeah, but if it's in the shop 9 days out of 10, how much are you going to be
able to drive it? ;)
--Seth Bowden
bs...@cornell.edu
mov...@speed.com
Well, the number one question to ask yourself when looking for a car is,
"is the car for point A to B driving (ie. an appliance) or do you want
some kick in your daily driving (ie. a car with a soul)". If the later is
more appealing, then go with the German cars.
Next, correct me if I am wrong, I believe that the VW Passat is one of
the last of VW's line to still be built in Germany but, then on the other
hand, that may have already changed by now. The earlier Mexican built
VW's did have a poor track record but I am told (I havn't seen any proof
yet!) that the VWs coming out of Mexico now are very good in quality. I
guess this just depends on where you live and what your standards are
like.
As for my bias on the subject, I have only own GTI's in the last 9 years
and driven most of my family's Hondas, Acuras, Toyotas, Nissans and of
course the nightmares that sent our family to the Japanese products;
Ford, Chevy and Buick. I am considered the black sheep in the family for
driving German, but when I visit my parent's place I think my dad gets a
serious case of the hots for the hot hatch ('95 VR6 GTI) BTW he drives a
Acura Legend 2 door coupe. He states that he would seriously consider
buying a VW just like mine if he was planning on buying. The power and
handling (lowered ,Momo steering wheel and P-flow is all that has been
changed) along with the usefulness of the hatch is what appeals to him
most (VW take note on the suspension mod. VWs should never be so high off
the ground. My VR6 when it was at stock height had over 3.5" of clearance
in the front wells, OH! that really made the look! NOT!!!! Handling?
Not!!!)
Anyhoo I would stick with what your gut tells you and if that feeling
screams VOLKSWAGEN!!! than so be it.
Best of luck
See ya moving@speed.
J. O.
On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:22:18 -0600, Dina...@aol.com wrote:
>Can anyone give me some feedback on VW reliability vs. Honda reliability?
>All I get from my father or brother when I tell them I'm thinking of
>buying a VW is grunts and stories of how they heard how VWs are so
>unreliable (i.e. electrical problems). I'm currently looking at the '98
>Passat and the '98 Accord coupe. Both seem to be in great demand, and
>honestly I'm leaning towards the Passat, but I need ammo to convince my
>father so he doesn't give me the father knows best routine! All the cars
>in our family (including my old car are japanese--Lexus, Honda, Acura--
>except my dad's which is a mercedes. My family's a little biased so
>someone throw me a lifeboat!
>
>Any information for/against either make is appreciated!
Well Dina:
I am subscribed to the Passat mailing list and can tell you that the
98 Passat is expected to be MUCH MORE reliable than it was in previous
years. In previous years, you could have expected to have made a
major service job on the head gasket... at 60k miles. The
elongated-A4 base Passat seems sturdier and more reliable.
Duane Walker
How can you even want to compare a soulless piece of japanese tin to a real
car.
J. O. wrote in message <347dbcaa...@news.tiac.net>...
Bernd Felsche
In <8801497...@dejanews.com> Dina...@aol.com writes:
>Can anyone give me some feedback on VW reliability vs. Honda reliability?
>All I get from my father or brother when I tell them I'm thinking of
>buying a VW is grunts and stories of how they heard how VWs are so
>unreliable (i.e. electrical problems). I'm currently looking at the '98
>Passat and the '98 Accord coupe. Both seem to be in great demand, and
Don't judge the new Passat by it's predecessors. It's put together much
better, and there've been no horror-stories coming through from Europe
where it's been around for a while.
>honestly I'm leaning towards the Passat, but I need ammo to convince my
>father so he doesn't give me the father knows best routine! All the cars
>in our family (including my old car are japanese--Lexus, Honda, Acura--
You mean TOYOTA, Honda and HONDA! :-)
>except my dad's which is a mercedes. My family's a little biased so
>someone throw me a lifeboat!
Get your father to test-drive (and -ride in the back) the Passat.
Take care with brakes because they are very effective, and take some
getting used to!
Do the same with a Honda.
Reliability will become a minor issue.
--
Bernd Felsche {speaking for himself}
MetaPro Systems Pty Ltd, Redcliffe, Western Australia
Phone: +61 8 9479 3722 Fax: +61 8 9479 3720
Unauthorised distribution, storage or resale of this information is prohibited.
MylesPH
If your Dad needs stats, have him check ol' Consumer Reports about the last
Passat, which was a "recommended" car, just like the previous Accord. But if
you really want to convince him, just have him drive one.
Myles
Dan Vandeputte
Duane Walker wrote:
> How can you even want to compare a soulless piece of japanese tin to a real
> car.
Ummmm..... how does an inanimate object have human trait? Talk about tin,
see that frame on a Jetta III/Golf III crumple under a 40mph offset crash.
> J. O. wrote in message <347dbcaa...@news.tiac.net>...
> >On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:22:18 -0600, Dina...@aol.com wrote:
> >
> >>Can anyone give me some feedback on VW reliability vs. Honda reliability?
-Dan
"cheating a stranger, blame it on the system.
Is cheating you mother next, why don't
you share with us your wisdom?"
-five pound bag
Wish You Were Here
Dan Vandeputte (bl...@blah.blah) wrote:
:
:
:
: > How can you even want to compare a soulless piece of japanese tin to a real
: > car.
:
: Ummmm..... how does an inanimate object have human trait? Talk about tin,
: see that frame on a Jetta III/Golf III crumple under a 40mph offset crash.
I call it the "sucker" mentality... if all else fails give your
car a human trait and pass it off as superior, that way you
can sound like a German car executive too.
-dy
Dan Vandeputte
Hehehehehehe, sounds about right. If your car has some asinine flaw, then call
it "personality" or "soul." Personally, I actually LIKE it when all my controls do
what they're supposed to, but I guess that's just me ;-)
> -dy
-Dan
"release the mind of all restraint
free yourself, let go of your hate"
-Pain Station
Nevets
On Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:03:24 -0500, Dan Vandeputte <bl...@blah.blah>
wrote:
>
>
>Duane Walker wrote:
>
>> How can you even want to compare a soulless piece of japanese tin to a real
>> car.
>
> Ummmm..... how does an inanimate object have human trait? Talk about tin,
>see that frame on a Jetta III/Golf III crumple under a 40mph offset crash.
I thought the thread was about the Passat?
Joe Lucchio
> buying a VW is grunts and stories of how they heard how VWs are so
> unreliable (i.e. electrical problems). I'm currently looking at the '98
> Passat and the '98 Accord coupe. Both seem to be in great demand, and
> father so he doesn't give me the father knows best routine! All the cars
> in our family (including my old car are japanese--Lexus, Honda, Acura--
> someone throw me a lifeboat!
>
>
>
> Dina
>
> -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Question reminds me of when I bought a 1990 4 Runner. Thought it would
be totally reliable. Boy was I wrong. Thank god I got the extended
warranty. Suffice it to say the car was definitely in the shop more
than it was driven. On the other hand, with the exception of a few
minor items covered under warranty within the first year, both my German
built Scirocco and my Mexican Jetta GLX have been pretty darn reliable
and trouble free. What does this mean? I got a couple of good ones
when I bought the VW and a bad one when I bought the Toyota. If you buy
the Honda, it could be a problem car, so could the Passat, you really
never know. Buy the Passat.
[agp]
Buy the Passat. Hondas suck!
Dont you want a different car? every car you see in the street is a
fucking rice burner.
Dan Vandeputte
Nevets wrote:
OK, the Passat is an Audi A4 which has done pretty well reliability and
longevity wise as well as the Honda. Drive both, which one do you like better?
Whichever you like better buy it. It's all gonna depend on your _own_ needs and
wants so the car that fits you better is the car to buy. I still can't figure out
how an inanimate object can have human traits though.
-Dan
"No noble cause is worth dying for
Nothing matters when you are no more"
-Cat Rapes Dog
Kyril Feldman
Well, I have two cars: '97 Honda Civic and '97 VW GTI VR6. The Civic has
been to dealer 3 times for warranty repairs, all related to broken parts. VW
had one warranty repair, related to sloppy assembly.
If you are going to buy a car based mainly on reliability concern, than
you'll have really tough time to decide. '98 Accord and '98 Passat are both
completely new models on the market and the only thing you can talk about is
the *expected reliability*. Expected reliability of Passat is not shiny
comparing to Accord. Furthermore, correct me if I'm wrong Passats also have
shorter bumper-to-bumper warranty, that is, the one that really matters.
If you have in mind to buy a good driver's car, then I think you have even
more complex decision to take.
It's absolutely stupid to extrapolate property of being good driver's car on
all German cars (as many people tend to do, and you may hear those in this
thread). Particularly, when you compare Accord and Passat (I assume you
compare 4 cylinder models), in Passat you have a car that's some 200 lb
heavier (imagine carrying an athletic boy friend in car all the time), using
carry-over rear suspension design (really out-dated in my opinion), noisier
(refer to C&D test results), and less fuel efficient. The Passat is
definetely more complicated mechanically (and complicated does not equal to
sophisticated). It has a turbo-charger, standard traction control and couple
of other goodies, all barely keeping it on par with Accord. Finally, if you
stack one vs. another you'll see Passat also loses in price/features
comparison.
If you have a consideration of looking cool in your car, then you definitely
should go with Accord. Honda is not going to sell that many coupes so that
you'll see your car on the road a lot of times (contrary to someone's post
in this thread). Accord coupe has unique look, which I personally find quite
sharp, whereas in Passat you'll be looking like whom it's intentended for:
multi-children family peer (pls, don't throw stones, I have son myself!).
Hope, I helped some,
-Kyril
Jim Buck
rwh...@nr.infi.net wrote:
> The Passat has always been, and continues to be, assembled in Germany,
> and possibly for that reason, while not as outstanding as the Accord, reliability has
> not been a problem.
Another issue that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that the Passat (as
well as all VW's) carry a 2 year/24k bumper-to-bumper and 10 year/100k
drivetrain warranty.
--
Jim Buck
Brian
Hi Dina!
I got a 97 GTI VR6 in September 96... Traded in an 89 Integra LS for it
and regretted it a month later.
The GTI wasn't a bad car, it was rather fun at times and was the BEST
car for snow and ice driving I've ever driven...
However, I had a couple warranty problems with the car (really minor,
just the clutch return spring and the O2 sensor), but every time I would
take the car to get the warranty work done, the VW dealer techs would
screw up at least one other system in the car...
In fixing the clutch return spring, they did it wrong and disabled the
cruise control.
Fixing the O2 sensor the first time, it failed the morning after the
work was done, when we were starting out on a 1400 mile trip. The
dealer was closed on Saturdays of course... Only one dealer in Chicago
had Saturday service hours at the time, and they did get us in to
diagnose the problem, and sent us on our way telling us that it wouldn't
affect the warranty or reliablilty, just get it fixed when we got back.
On the way back, the intermittent wipers failed.
Getting the O2 sensor replace the second time, this time at another
dealer, they fried the security system. Closing the hatch armed the
system so that the ignition was disabled even though all doors remained
unlocked. This took 2 tries to fix, and on one try they broke some hose
guides under the hood, requiring another trip to get that fixed.
I gave up, and in July 97 ordered an Integra GS-R (what I had wanted in
the first place). Nine weeks later I dumped the lump and have been
happy ever since.
The VW was reasonably fun and safe to drive, however the fuel economy
was horrendous even for a 2.8L... Most times I struggled to get above
20 mpg to and from work. It also didn't want to be driven briskly, it
only got fun if the car was absolutely floored and redlined, even then
it felt sluggish and reluctant to accelerate.
Look into service options for the car -- can you get it fixed on your
schedule vs taking time off work to get it fixed or have routine
maintenance done. Here in the Chicago area, no dealers offer ANY VW
service on weekends, requiring time off work to even get an oil change
-- Chicago area Acura dealers have weekend hours and often free loaners
too.
Hope this helps!
brian
--
//
// Remove NOSPAM from the return address...
MTCK
please not this again, not for another few months at least!
|#1| Wildfire
> Can anyone give me some feedback on VW reliability vs. Honda reliability?
Yea, they both suck, go buy a Dodge. ;>
-S
msprings
yeah then how come there are more hondas in the used car section for sale
whats a matter should of bought a vw in the first place? vw people like to keep
there cars for atleast 10 yrs...with good reason
rwh...@nr.infi.net
>compare 4 cylinder models), in Passat you have a car that's some 200 lb
>heavier (imagine carrying an athletic boy friend in car all the time), using
>carry-over rear suspension design (really out-dated in my opinion), noisier
>(refer to C&D test results), and less fuel efficient. The Passat is
There are 4 cylinder Passats, and there are 4 cylinder Passats. The TDI
4 cylinder Passat is EPA rated at 50 highway miles per gallon, and Honda can not
come anywhere even remotely close to that. If you intend your car to spend a great
deal of time on the Interstate, you will run up substantially smaller fuel bills with
the Passat.
JACEK KIECA
I've been following this thread and you guys break all the rules of
comparision! To start things off, how can you compare an Accord Coupe
with a Passat? I know both cars in question are V6 and similarly priced,
but the only Accord the Passat should be compared to is the 4-door!
especially that starting this model year, the coupe and sedan differ
enough in wheelbase and interior measurements(as well as trunk opening
for example) that makes such thing unfair! Coupe is a style over
function body shape, where both Passat and Accord 4-door are more
sensible, ie. the only Accord the Passat GLX V6 should be compared to is
the Sedan EX V6.
Another thing is I believe the original concern was reliabilty. Correct
if I'm wrong, but both '98 models are new models that are also based on
all new corporate platforms. I mean this is the first "North America only"
Accord, that is different from the European and japanese market models.
On the other hand VW Passat is based on underpinnings of the highly
acclaimed Audi A4 and the bigger Audi A6 also uses the same runing gear.
Both companies seem to present concerns about reliability to some groups
of people, however let me ensure you they are far more superior than
anything domestic in that class, and if you want reliabilty go for a
Toyota! Both VW and honda are driver's cars!
I would say the smartest thing to prevent any reliabilty problems is to
go for the car with better warranty package.
Now finally to the most dummest comparision in the thread:
rwh...@nr.infi.net wrote:
: There are 4 cylinder Passats, and there are 4 cylinder Passats.
: The TDI 4 cylinder Passat is EPA rated at 50 highway miles per gallon,
: and Honda can not come anywhere even remotely close to that. If you
: intend your car to spend a great deal of time on the Interstate,
: you will run up substantially smaller fuel bills with
: the Passat.
Now I think this is like comparing apples and oranges! What about 0-60
times? Do you still want to use the TDI for comparsion or are you going
to conviniently change over to the 1.8Turbo? Comparing a Turbo Diesel
Passat to 4-cylinder Accord makes as much sense as comparing a 185 bhp
Civic Type-R to a 115 bhp Golf Gti or even better to Golf TDI! Let's
take the Golf TDI and comapre it's 1/4 mile to Civic Type-R, shall we?
There both 4-cylinder hatchbacks... I hope this illustrates a point on
how pointless your comparison is! Simply because if someone considers a
TDI Passat, then no nondiesel cars shoudl be compared, and if someone
wants to compare Civic Type-R they won't be looking at Golf TDI.
So in reality the only cars compared should be Accord 4-door against
4-door only Passat. To also know how well each one of them fares against
the other they should be matched on engine/tranny combination (eg. 4
cylinder accord against passat 1.8t20v, bot standards, or v-6
automatics). That is direct comparison. Then after such direct
comparing to learn each cars flaws and attributes, oncecan contemplate on
the choice specific to each brand. For example Honda offers alternative
of a 2-door Coupe, while VW Passat can be equipped with a manual tranny
and all-wheel-drive drivetrain on the V6 Passat, something honda can't
Match. Honda offers 3 levels of trim on the 4-cylinder to match more
specific needs, while 4-cylinder Passat comes only in one trim level, and
so on....
So to avoid any further confusion, please make only direct comparing,
while the differences should be noted elswhere! However please do not
compare engine performance between Accord 2.2 liter and a TDI Passat, as
it is simply useless! It's just twisting the facts to create your "own"
truth!
Jacek
Bernd Felsche
In <65agp5$ff9$1...@usenet89.supernews.com>
"Kyril Feldman" <kfel...@pictureworks.com> writes:
>If you are going to buy a car based mainly on reliability concern, than
>you'll have really tough time to decide. '98 Accord and '98 Passat are both
>completely new models on the market and the only thing you can talk about is
>the *expected reliability*. Expected reliability of Passat is not shiny
>comparing to Accord. Furthermore, correct me if I'm wrong Passats also have
>shorter bumper-to-bumper warranty, that is, the one that really matters.
>If you have in mind to buy a good driver's car, then I think you have even
>more complex decision to take.
>It's absolutely stupid to extrapolate property of being good driver's car on
>all German cars (as many people tend to do, and you may hear those in this
>thread). Particularly, when you compare Accord and Passat (I assume you
>compare 4 cylinder models), in Passat you have a car that's some 200 lb
>heavier (imagine carrying an athletic boy friend in car all the time), using
>carry-over rear suspension design (really out-dated in my opinion), noisier
>(refer to C&D test results), and less fuel efficient. The Passat is
You appear to be mis-informed. The rear suspension is a new design,
shared in essence with the new Audi A6.
I won't discuss dimensions, etc as I don't have Honda figures at hand.
>definetely more complicated mechanically (and complicated does not equal to
>sophisticated). It has a turbo-charger, standard traction control and couple
>of other goodies, all barely keeping it on par with Accord. Finally, if you
>stack one vs. another you'll see Passat also loses in price/features
>comparison.
--
Cartman
On Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:28:54 -0500, Dan Vandeputte <bl...@blah.blah>
professed:
>> >
>> >Duane Walker wrote:
>> >
>> >> How can you even want to compare a soulless piece of japanese tin to a real
>> >> car.
>I still can't figure out
>how an inanimate object can have human traits though.
>
A car with "soul" has nothing to do with anthropomorphism. It has to
do with road feel and response to driver input. For instance, my
friend let me test drive his Prelude VTEC. I couldn't stand it. Mushy
steering, a floaty suspension, I just felt disconnected to the road
surface. If I wanted a land-yaght ride, I'd by a Caddilac. When I
drive my VW, I can feel exactly how much harder I can push the car
before I loose traction. I can feel the road condition in the tips of
my fingers. About the only thing I liked about his Prelude were the
seats. Those huge wings on the side bolsters are pretty kickass.
Intelligent and friendly on rye bread with mayonnaise!
Gordon Sleigh
Might tell you something. (:
(Hey, I like VW's and Honda's. I just happen to own a Honda. (: )
--
/ exISIS/AtCon/HookUp Communications - Internet Services - 902.429.5419 \
[|) 1989 Acura Integra RS: Pioneer - JL Audio - Kenwood - Monster Cable (|]
\ An object at rest cannot be stopped! - http://spoon.org /
JACEK KIECA
Cartman (no...@Anyone.who.needs.it.has.it) wrote:
: ...................................................For instance, my
: friend let me test drive his Prelude VTEC. I couldn't stand it. Mushy
: steering, a floaty suspension, I just felt disconnected to the road
: surface. If I wanted a land-yaght ride, I'd by a Caddilac. When I
: drive my VW, I can feel exactly how much harder I can push the car
: before I loose traction. I can feel the road condition in the tips of
: my fingers. About the only thing I liked about his Prelude were the
: seats. Those huge wings on the side bolsters are pretty kickass.
Well, I don't know last tie I checked Honda rides nothing like a Cadillac! I have an Accord and that
car rides firm, not jiggle, not stiff, but firm. Firm enough to feel the road. You're correct on the
steering. I ownde another car like the one I do right now, except without the power steering and it was
a delight. A little bit heavy when parking, but at highway speeds the steering was great! However the
power steering model feels vague sometimes and the power assistance makes it too light at certain
speeds, it's still no Cadillac. If you want to fairly compare a Honda to a domestic, may I advice on
something? Go on test drives in V6 Passat, V6 Accord and V6 Lumina. That would be the most direct
comparisment. Then you can judge how soft or firm suspension is by makers, in the same class of a
vechicle.
And yes prelude seats are really nice. In fact I've got Prelude front buckets in my Accord.
Jacek
KARNOTT
LOL:
In the 80s I was a VW-man. I left them because THEY became mushy and lost
their edge. I don't own a Prelude VTEC, but I have driven many, and they
are not even the slightest bit mushy. Sounds to me like you drove a Lexus.
:-) I would glady take a prelude VTEC over ANY current VW product. What
was the best handling car under $30k again? I didn't see a VW in the
1-spot!
>A car with "soul" has nothing to do with anthropomorphism. It has to
>do with road feel and response to driver input. For instance, my
>friend let me test drive his Prelude VTEC. I couldn't stand it. Mushy
>steering, a floaty suspension, I just felt disconnected to the road
>surface. If I wanted a land-yaght ride, I'd by a Caddilac. When I
>drive my VW, I can feel exactly how much harder I can push the car
>before I loose traction. I can feel the road condition in the tips of
>my fingers. About the only thing I liked about his Prelude were the
>seats. Those huge wings on the side bolsters are pretty kickass.
>
>
e...@nortel.ca
I can only speak of my experience with 5 VWs since late 70s till early
90s and they are consistancely getting worst. On the other hand I have
a high mileage 90 Integra and many friends with Hondas and they have
nothing but good comments. The new Passat indeed a great looking car
(much better styling then the bland 98 Accord) but with the poor VW
track record in reliability I will think twice (or more) before buying
them. All my VWs are great driving cars soon after it is out of the
shop. Unfortunately, things fall apart more readily in VW products.
Dina...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Can anyone give me some feedback on VW reliability vs. Honda reliability?
Dan Vandeputte
Cartman wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:28:54 -0500, Dan Vandeputte <bl...@blah.blah>
> professed:
>
> >> >
> >> >Duane Walker wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> How can you even want to compare a soulless piece of japanese tin to a real
> >> >> car.
>
> >I still can't figure out
> >how an inanimate object can have human traits though.
> >
>
> A car with "soul" has nothing to do with anthropomorphism. It has to
> do with road feel and response to driver input.
OK, I can accept _your_ definition of "soul," though I don't agree with the use
of the word as it implies much more than just "road feel and response to driver
input." This isn't the way _most_ people I see use the term. The way I've usually
seen it used is best described in an example (disclaimer: I and none of my relatives
own or have owned a Honda, almost bought one a number of times though) that goes
something like this (I don't remember the exact wording). "The problem I found with
the Honda controls is that, while they worked smoothly and did what they were
supposed to (this is a bad thing?!?!?), they lacked soul." Obviously, this doesn't
imply anything about "road feel or response to driver input," well, at least I hope
it doens't. This more or less is the type of comment/implication that I see. Being
Mr. Realist that I am, I disagree with giving an inanimate objects/mechines human
qualities like the example above. I have a serious question for you Cartman, by
_your_ definition, do you feel an NSX has soul? I tell you why I'm asking this when I
get an answer as the question is leading up to a comment on the NSX by another
company. The problem I see with your definition, I personally think that more cars
can be labled as having "soul" than many would like to be labled as having "soul."
This leads to another question then, the question of another human quality of
"personality" that I believe inanimate objects cannot possess, they can possess
different characteristics, but not personality. I was wondering what your take on
this is as I'm trying to figure out people's takes on these issues since they
personally distress me. I don't know, I don't think I'd want my car to have a "soul"
and "personality," I'm afraid if I treat it bad it will become like the car in the
movie "The Car" (am I thinking about the right movie where the car goes around
killing people or something along those lines), my car may just turn it's back on me
and attack me if I'm mean to it ;-)
> For instance, my
> friend let me test drive his Prelude VTEC. I couldn't stand it. Mushy
> steering, a floaty suspension, I just felt disconnected to the road
> surface. If I wanted a land-yaght ride, I'd by a Caddilac.
Hmmmm..... I think this is getting a wee bit carried away, don't ya think? A
Prelude as floaty as a Caddy? For some reason I doubt that.
> When I
> drive my VW, I can feel exactly how much harder I can push the car
> before I loose traction. I can feel the road condition in the tips of
> my fingers. About the only thing I liked about his Prelude were the
> seats. Those huge wings on the side bolsters are pretty kickass.
>
> Intelligent and friendly on rye bread with mayonnaise!
Can we make that white bread and butter, I don't like rye or mayonnaise. Just
kidding ;-)
-Dan
"Very evil, is your conscious, in denial"
-Needulhed
rwh...@nr.infi.net
>Another issue that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that the Passat (as
>well as all VW's) carry a 2 year/24k bumper-to-bumper and 10 year/100k
>drivetrain warranty.
>
>--
>Jim Buck
There is also the rust warranty, which is good for 11 years, as opposed to
the 6 years on other VWs.
Olaf Brescia
The VW is fine, just find a good trustworthy dealer to get it
serviced. It's probably will not be as drop-dead reliable as the
Honda, but that's uniqueness for you. I had a Honda CRX, and it
was a wonderful car. Now I have a Corrado VR6 and love it
even more than the Honda. Is the VW as reliable? ..no. Is it
funner to drive...very much Yes. Would I buy another VW?...Yes.
2 cents for you...
- Olaf (93 SLC)
Dan Vandeputte
Cartman wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:28:54 -0500, Dan Vandeputte <bl...@blah.blah>
> professed:
>
> >> >
> >> >Duane Walker wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> How can you even want to compare a soulless piece of japanese tin to a real
> >> >> car.
>
> >I still can't figure out
> >how an inanimate object can have human traits though.
> >
>
> A car with "soul" has nothing to do with anthropomorphism. It has to
> do with road feel and response to driver input.
Ummmm.... there's another flaw (?) in this definition. OK, let's say that I own
an Accord DX and tell you that it has "soul" (going by your definition). Would you
take me seriously? Probably not. Let's say that I modified the car and it had
_awesome_ road feel and responded in such a way that you would swear the car was
wired to your brain. According to your definition, my theoretical Accord would have
"soul," correct? Now, how many people would take me seriously? Probably very few
would and they'd all swear that my car had no "soul" 'cause it was an Accord.
According to your definition, _any_ car can have "soul," it may just take some mods
to the suspension and other parts to give it "soul." I don't think many would agree
to this at all. But anyway, I guess "soul" and "personality" are two terms that are
subjective in their meanings and so for different people they have different meanings
(which for me is absolutely nothing as no car can have "soul" or "personality," just
different characteristics). But anyway, both cars are still good choices and it
should all come down to personal preferences. But I wonder, now that the Passat is
based on the A4, does it still come with the 2/24 btb warranty and 10/100 powertrain
or is it gonna change? Just curious.
-Dan
"my mouth is moving yet I have no voice
my mind is working yet I have no choice"
-Sister Machine Gun
Barry A. Hunter
What has not been discussed is the local dealer. If the dealers for
these brands are not the same, you should consider expected quality
service of the dealer as well as the vehicle (this put me in a Honda).
Ten years ago, your question would have had more emphasis. Now, overall
reliability has increased among (almost) all manufacturers. If you are
looking for the absolute edge.......take the Honda.
Chad
MTCK wrote in message <6585sn$4...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>...
>please not this again, not for another few months at least!
i agree.
Chad
>In the 80s I was a VW-man. I left them because THEY became mushy and lost
>their edge. I don't own a Prelude VTEC, but I have driven many, and they
>are not even the slightest bit mushy. Sounds to me like you drove a Lexus.
>:-) I would glady take a prelude VTEC over ANY current VW product. What
>was the best handling car under $30k again? I didn't see a VW in the
>1-spot!
my Passat Handles like no other VW I know of, except a corrado. but there
aint no mush in my car.
[agp]
It also didn't want to be driven briskly, it
> only got fun if the car was absolutely floored and redlined, even then
> it felt sluggish and reluctant to accelerate.
I think you are talking about integras.
LL&J Baker
Duane Walker wrote:
>
> How can you even want to compare a soulless piece of japanese tin to a real
> car.
Hehe. My soulless piece of tin (A GSR) beats the snot out of
any and all the VWs and BMWs I've owned in my 35 years of
driving. Plus it spends a lot less time at the mechanic.
Speaking of "soul" -- ironically, C&D said the GSR had
the soul of a Formula One. But you know more about it
I'm sure...
jrb
Defender
*Service* is the operative word here....
My son raced his 88 Jetta against a 95 and a 92 Accord at a certified race
track on Sunday. His Jet has 211,000 miles on it. He didn't win either
heat, but wasn't smoked either (81 mph @ 12.75 in 1000 ft). The 92 had all
the seats out of of but the driver's seat. Both the Accords were
automotatic. My son was a good 7 feet in front of both cars at the half-way
mark in his "unreliable" old 1.8L engine, but shifted into 4th too soon and
the Accords pulled away.
His Jetta has had regular maint since new, one water pump, regular belt
changes, oil regular, plus other regular maint (shocks, etc).
Guess it's been kinda, sorta reliable. Got it in Anchorage, Alaska. It has
NEVER failed to start and has paid for itself, oh say, at least twice.
'Course Hondas are much more reliable ...
hehe
Mark
Henri Helanto
jk9...@badger.ac.brocku.ca (JACEK KIECA) writes:
>I've been following this thread and you guys break all the rules of
>comparision! To start things off, how can you compare an Accord Coupe
<...>
Rules? We don't need no stinkin' rules. ((C) a friend of mine ;)
Do you actually think that two cars - pick any two - have to
be somehow similar that they can be compared to/with each other?
<...>
>times? Do you still want to use the TDI for comparsion or are you going
>to conviniently change over to the 1.8Turbo? Comparing a Turbo Diesel
>Passat to 4-cylinder Accord makes as much sense as comparing a 185 bhp
>Civic Type-R to a 115 bhp Golf Gti or even better to Golf TDI! Let's
The VW TDI engine can quite effortlessly be hopped up to 200bhp+
which is a s**tload of power from a diesel. Of course, it won't
get 50mpg anymore but ~30-35mpg is still within reach. Someone
even races a Golf TDI in Europe (!), I saw a quite comprehensive
article on the subject in a magazine (hmm, CCC? PCM?) a while
ago.
<...>
>So to avoid any further confusion, please make only direct comparing,
>while the differences should be noted elswhere! However please do not
>compare engine performance between Accord 2.2 liter and a TDI Passat, as
>it is simply useless! It's just twisting the facts to create your "own"
>truth!
Ok, one more time: you can make _any_ comparison as soon as it
makes a point. (Not that the particular thread has ever been
even somewhat relevant to anything...)
-Henri
--
# Henri Helanto ; he...@muncca.fi ; hhel...@cc.hut.fi #
# Nissan Skyline GT-R ; '71 Corvette LS-6 ; GMC Typhoon ; etc...#
CAUTION: Before engaging mouth make sure that the brain is in gear.
Cartman
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:38:49 -0500, Dan Vandeputte <bl...@blah.blah>
professed:
> I have a serious question for you Cartman, by
>_your_ definition, do you feel an NSX has soul?
I don't know, I've never driven one.
>Hmmmm..... I think this is getting a wee bit carried away, don't ya think? A
>Prelude as floaty as a Caddy? For some reason I doubt that.
>
It is. It wallowed any imperfection in the road. It wasn't worn shocks
either, it was only 4 months old when I drove it.
mov...@speed.com
>Cartman wrote:
Big SNIP
>This leads to another question then, the question of another human quality of
>"personality" that I believe inanimate objects cannot possess, they can possess
>different characteristics, but not personality. I was wondering what your take on
>this is as I'm trying to figure out people's takes on these issues since they
>personally distress me. I don't know, I don't think I'd want my car to have a "soul"
>and "personality," I'm afraid if I treat it bad it will become like the car in the
>movie "The Car" (am I thinking about the right movie where the car goes around
>killing people or something along those lines), my car may just turn it's back on me
>and attack me if I'm mean to it ;-)
And what is wrong with that? There are many people that have said "I
don't know why the car reacted that way but it saved my life". Or cases
where a person that has owned the car since new, but the car has never
"agreed" with the owner. The repair shops could never find a problem with
the car and so the owner sold the car. Now the new owner has no problems
with the same car.
Personality and soul may not be the "correct" terms to use but what else
can you use when you feel a "connectness" to the car that you own and
drive. BTW if the car wants to kill you, trust me, it will but not the
way you think (ie. blood and gore). MONEY and the bleeding of your
wallet. If this starts to happen to you run, do not walk, away from this
car unless you really love this car and want it for better or worse
(sound familar). In the end, it is really in the owners (drivers) mind as
to the connection or the feeling they get from the car.
Whether you call it "soul" or "personality" or WHATEVER it is there and
you can't tell someone not to believe. Just go with it!
Enjoy it and who cares what the other person's car is or does. Just be
happy they are not driving your car! Understand?!?
See ya!
Moving@speed
Ryan Rahim
LL&J Baker (jba...@azstarnet.com) wrote:
: Duane Walker wrote:
: >
: > How can you even want to compare a soulless piece of japanese tin to a real
: > car.
: Hehe. My soulless piece of tin (A GSR) beats the snot out of
: any and all the VWs and BMWs I've owned in my 35 years of
: driving. Plus it spends a lot less time at the mechanic.
LOL! What the hell does this mean?
: Speaking of "soul" -- ironically, C&D said the GSR had
: the soul of a Formula One.
This in itself is laughable.
: jrb
Ryan
--
Happiness isn't just around the corner...it _IS_ the corner
KARNOTT
I've driven a 92 - not bad, but not much to write home about. The GTI was a
much sportier car (although they really can't be compared). Felt a bit low
on the power, though (when compared to competitors such as the Maxima).
Chad wrote in message <65d7fe$f9g$1...@news21.bellglobal.com>...
Dan Vandeputte
mov...@speed.com wrote:
> >Cartman wrote:
>
> And what is wrong with that? There are many people that have said "I
> don't know why the car reacted that way but it saved my life". Or cases
> where a person that has owned the car since new, but the car has never
> "agreed" with the owner. The repair shops could never find a problem with
> the car and so the owner sold the car. Now the new owner has no problems
> with the same car.
> Personality and soul may not be the "correct" terms to use but what else
> can you use when you feel a "connectness" to the car that you own and
> drive.
Why not the word "connectness?" Is there something wrong with that word?
> BTW if the car wants to kill you, trust me, it will but not the
> way you think (ie. blood and gore). MONEY and the bleeding of your
> wallet.
Since cars can't feel, think, or do anything else conciously, I'm not going to worry
about it trying to kill me (I was only joking when I said that).
> If this starts to happen to you run, do not walk, away from this
> car unless you really love this car and want it for better or worse
> (sound familar). In the end, it is really in the owners (drivers) mind as
> to the connection or the feeling they get from the car.
>
> Whether you call it "soul" or "personality" or WHATEVER it is there and
> you can't tell someone not to believe. Just go with it!
>
> Enjoy it and who cares what the other person's car is or does. Just be
> happy they are not driving your car! Understand?!?
Oh my God, and people say I'm strange. I just can't stand it when that say something
like "that car sucks, it has no personality" No sh*t it doesn't, it's a freakin' car, not
a person. That's my problem, and the fact that no one has ever come up with a meaningful
definition of "soul" and "personality" to justify saying that a car is "soulless" or
whatever, which makes me believe it's nothing more than lame terms that people come up
with to justify quirks in their cars and to trash other cars. Well, I don't know what
else to say, this is one of the strangest things I've read all year and even I'm at a
loss, WOW!!! Congratulations, you're one of the few that can do that.
> See ya!
> Moving@speed
-Dan
McEowen
My '87 Jetta GL has always been reliable. In other words. It always started,
always ran, never let me down . . . that sort of thing. But when the car had
problems they always seemed harder to pinpoint and harder to cure than other
cars I've owned. It never has had what I would call a perfectly functioning
fuel injection system -- always a little roughness in starting and warming up.
Also parts always seemed "higher than a cat's back."
Having said all that, when I look at my 11-year old Jetta (with 150,000 miles),
I'm glad I bought it. I suspect it's a much better OLD car than an OLD Japanese
car would be. I know that's pretty hard to back up but at 150,000 it still
seems rock solid. In short, it seems GERMAN. I could see it going another
50,000-100,000 miles as "still a pretty good car." My experience with old/tired
Hondas has been they were pretty much spent.
"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on
immortality." (1Co 15:53 )
http://members.aol.com/twchurch/index.html
Charles Thorsten
In article <65c379$dcb$1...@news.duke.edu>,
KARNOTT <1351252*nospam*@usa.net> wrote:
>
>In the 80s I was a VW-man. I left them because THEY became mushy and lost
>their edge. I don't own a Prelude VTEC, but I have driven many, and they
>are not even the slightest bit mushy. Sounds to me like you drove a Lexus.
>:-) I would glady take a prelude VTEC over ANY current VW product. What
>was the best handling car under $30k again? I didn't see a VW in the
>1-spot!
That's because the Corrado VR6 isn't made anymore. Anyways, I drove a new
Prelude Type SH, and while it DID handle very well, and it's a nicely
built car, it's very lacking under the hood. There is no torque at all,
like driving an Integra. You keep revving the engine, waiting for
something to happen, but nothing does. Put the new accord's V6 in it,
then it would be awesome.
--
Nick Markou
> : > How can you even want to compare a soulless piece of japanese tin to a real
> : > car.
>
> : Hehe. My soulless piece of tin (A GSR) beats the snot out of
> : any and all the VWs and BMWs I've owned in my 35 years of
> : driving. Plus it spends a lot less time at the mechanic.
Gee...musta been tough beating a couple diesels and a wannabe 318
huh?.... Enjoy your coffee waiting for your GS-R to spool up to 6000RPM
whilst VR6's and the 6 cylinder BMW's are long gone.
--
Nick Markou
http://www.interlinx.qc.ca/~nickcari/vw-audi.htm
'96 Golf CL 2-door
'91 Jetta (wife's car)
'91 Golf Diesel (now clattering for someone else :(
'87 Jetta (515,000kms and counting)
KARNOTT
The Corrado isn't made anymore because it never sold well. IF it lived up
to all the hype, it probably would have sold better. You're right about the
prelude lacking a little torque, but that's many enthusiasts can overlook
that - they don't WANT a hefty 3.0L V6 weighing the car down and sacrificing
handling. If you want gobs of torque, then muscle-cars are the way to go.
If you subscribe to the "power is nothing without control" philosophy, then
you'll see that the Prelude is an AMAZING car. It is a little bit more
rev-happy than the VR6, and the car is geared to make use of its high-end HP
rather than low-end torque...so in the end, it still offers an excellent
driving experience.
Charles Thorsten wrote in message <65f4g9$5...@sdcc17.ucsd.edu>...
Joe Lucchio
built car to the states that wasn't significantly different from the GTI
VR6 didn't make economical sense at the time. If you remember, the
Corrado was over $22,000 when it was introduced at the time in 1992(or
93) with the VR6 or maybe a little more. Take a 1992 Corrado VR6 and a
1992 Prelude and run them anywhere, and my guess is the Prelude won't
stand a chance. Looking at the 1997 numbers, the GTI VR6 out
accelerates the Prelude, outbrakes the Prelude, has more interior room
and over twice the luggage capacity. Oh and at $20,260, is $3,000 less
in the MSRP over the Prelude, and includes such nice amenities such as a
leather steering wheel, leather seats (didn't see the option on the
Prelude in Edmunds) a multi-function trip computer. If you dump the
crappy Goodyears (add $600 for comprable tires) the handling of the GTI
is going to be on par with the Prelude, because skidpad numbers aren't
the only thing that determines who well a car handles.
satyr
>> : Hehe. My soulless piece of tin (A GSR) beats the snot out of
>> : any and all the VWs and BMWs I've owned in my 35 years of
>> : driving. Plus it spends a lot less time at the mechanic.
>
>Gee...musta been tough beating a couple diesels and a wannabe 318
>huh?.... Enjoy your coffee waiting for your GS-R to spool up to 6000RPM
>whilst VR6's and the 6 cylinder BMW's are long gone.
Yea, the VR6 is a whopping .2 seconds faster on quarter mile... and
gets 5 mpg less. Maybe the soul is drinking it. And those 6 cyl BMWs
cost twice as much, guess they should be a second faster.
Michael Guest
satyr (RsEaM...@infidels.org) wrote:
:
: Yea, the VR6 is a whopping .2 seconds faster on quarter mile... and
: gets 5 mpg less. Maybe the soul is drinking it. And those 6 cyl BMWs
: cost twice as much, guess they should be a second faster.
:
a VR6 Corrado is only .2 seconds faster than a GS-R?
Funny, the Corrado seems alot faster when I blow past them...
Course they may just be difference in driver considering the
average Honda driver and all *duck*
Michael
1992 VW Corrado SLC
Cartman
On 25 Nov 1997 07:42:51 GMT, mov...@speed.com professed:
>>Cartman wrote:
>
Actually, no. I didn't write that.
>Big SNIP
>
>>This leads to another question then, the question of another human quality of.......
KARNOTT
>The Corrado isn't sold anymore because of the cost of importing a German
>built car to the states that wasn't significantly different from the GTI
>VR6 didn't make economical sense at the time.
Correct. As I said, it didn't live up to all the hype - it wasn't THAT
different from other VWs (ie GTI, GLX -VR6, etc.)
> If you remember, the
>Corrado was over $22,000 when it was introduced at the time in 1992(or
>93) with the VR6 or maybe a little more. Take a 1992 Corrado VR6 and a
>1992 Prelude and run them anywhere, and my guess is the Prelude won't
>stand a chance.
I'm not sure when they started making Prelude VTECs (it was around 92/93),
and those probably WOULD compete with the Corrado.
> Looking at the 1997 numbers, the GTI VR6 out
>accelerates the Prelude, outbrakes the Prelude, has more interior room
>and over twice the luggage capacity.
Yes, but it's past quality has been spotty it's built in Mexico and it's a
HATCHBACK (many associate this shape with cheaper economy cars, not $20k
cars). Only enthusiasts will be able to identify it as the rocket that it
really is - to most people, it's a little econobox. Besides that, the
differences in acceleration and braking time are small. The GTI is only a
mere 3/10 of a second faster in the 0-60 sprint.
> Oh and at $20,260, is $3,000 less
>in the MSRP over the Prelude, and includes such nice amenities such as a
>leather steering wheel, leather seats (didn't see the option on the
>Prelude in Edmunds) a multi-function trip computer. If you dump the
>crappy Goodyears (add $600 for comprable tires) the handling of the GTI
>is going to be on par with the Prelude, because skidpad numbers aren't
>the only thing that determines who well a car handles.
Quite right. The tires would probably result in a greater leve of adhesion,
but I am doubtful that the FEEL would be the same. Beyond that, the Prelude
has other things going for it: a higher revving engine (MUCH higher
redline), the ATTS system, and better fuel economy. Don't forget that the
new GTI is prone to some major floatiness - the prelude has little, if any,
of this.
I'm not saying that one car is better than the other, but I certainly think
that the Prelude is _JUST_ as good as a GTi OR Corrado.
nospam
Joe Lucchio wrote:
> The Corrado isn't sold anymore because of the cost of importing a German
> built car to the states that wasn't significantly different from the GTI
> VR6 didn't make economical sense at the time. If you remember, the
> Corrado was over $22,000 when it was introduced at the time in 1992(or
> 93) with the VR6 or maybe a little more. Take a 1992 Corrado VR6 and a
> 1992 Prelude and run them anywhere, and my guess is the Prelude won't
> stand a chance.
Unfortunately, while you guess, someone actually did the testing, albeit
with 1994 versions of both cars. Check out Motor Trend's 1994 B4B
challenge. Not only did the Prelude VTEC outaccelerate the Corrado
(15.1 to 15.6 in the quarter), it also cornered better and lapped over
half a second faster on the track (lap times in the 1:10 range). Prices
were similar on both cars as well (about 24k-25k at the time). Also
interesting to note that in the same test, even the Integra GS-R
outaccelerated and outlapped the Corrado. Remember, all of this testing
was done at the same time at the same venue. Numerous drivers drove
each car and commented on the experience.
> Prelude in Edmunds) a multi-function trip computer. If you dump the
> crappy Goodyears (add $600 for comprable tires) the handling of the GTI
> is going to be on par with the Prelude, because skidpad numbers aren't
> the only thing that determines who well a car handles.
While I too have been disappointed by the acceleration numbers turned in
for the 1997 Prelude in magazines(I think the focus has been softened),
if you think tires are going to bring the GTI up to par you're
discrediting yourself. Hell, the GTI was so floaty it finished behind
an Integra LS (despite a 1.0 second advantage to 60) which is below the
level of the GS-R and the Prelude. Having driven a GTI, I thought the
suspension allowed far too much pitch and roll. The engine is nice and
torquey (although not as great as everyone makes it out to be), the ride
is reasonably comfortable and the passenger and lugguge capacity is
wonderful, but the car really suffers in handling in stock form.
As for the original reliability argument, I don't think its too much of
an issue anymore. Personally, I'm bothered by the short comprehensive
warranty (Most of the warranty claims in my driving career have been for
minor, non-mechanical things) and some take issue with Mexican
construction, but neither appears to be enough of an issue to sway you
from one car to another unless they are very close in your mind to begin
with.
Rgds,
SFC
TAMS
> little dragrace that pitted my Jetta against a coffee-canned CRX-Si
> the other day. I will respect your wishes and not divulge the
> details within this thread. I usually never dragrace but i think
> this newsgroup is subliminally corrupting me.
>
> Then there's that race up the onramp against an A3 Jetta GT
> on the way to work this morning...........
>
> Randolio
> 86 GLi, urban assault vehicle
>
> (Please remove _No-Spam_ before e-mailing me)
Does your urban assault vehicle include a potato launcher o plug up
coffee-canners?
Ian
86gti
Nick Markou
KARNOTT wrote:
> > Looking at the 1997 numbers, the GTI VR6 out
> >accelerates the Prelude, outbrakes the Prelude, has more interior room
> >and over twice the luggage capacity.
>
> Yes, but it's past quality has been spotty it's built in Mexico and it's a
> HATCHBACK (many associate this shape with cheaper economy cars, not $20k
> cars).
Really? The Porsche 928,944, and 924 were all hatchbacks...the Saab
900's have always been hatchbacks, the 318ti and the American ponycars
are hatchbacks, so is almost every minivan out there...sorry but a
$100,000 928 doesn;t hit me as a cheapo car...neither does a Saab 900
turbo....beside the Golf body is a thousand times better looking than
that god awful inbred gawdy eyed prelude...
Randy Walters
Darryl Clark
Nick Markou <nick...@interlinx.qc.ca> wrote:
>KARNOTT wrote:
>
>> > Looking at the 1997 numbers, the GTI VR6 out
>> >accelerates the Prelude, outbrakes the Prelude, has more interior room
>> >and over twice the luggage capacity.
>>
accerlerate both, has 25% more interior and trunk space, will
post a .86 skid and has better resale value. I also got it for
$24.4k.
>> Yes, but it's past quality has been spotty it's built in Mexico and it's a
>> HATCHBACK (many associate this shape with cheaper economy cars, not $20k
>> cars).
>
>Really? The Porsche 928,944, and 924 were all hatchbacks...the Saab
>900's have always been hatchbacks, the 318ti and the American ponycars
>are hatchbacks, so is almost every minivan out there...sorry but a
>$100,000 928 doesn;t hit me as a cheapo car...neither does a Saab 900
>turbo....beside the Golf body is a thousand times better looking than
>that god awful inbred gawdy eyed prelude...
You ever notice how the japanese come out out with totally new
designs every year? I wonder how easy it will be to get parts
after eight years.
Brandon Sommerville
Darryl Clark had the nerve to say:
>Hey, if you want to compare numbers, my '96 Impala SS will out
>accerlerate both, has 25% more interior and trunk space, will
>post a .86 skid and has better resale value. I also got it for
>$24.4k.
And it comes with a complimentary captain's hat too! Try maneuvering
that boat through anything tight.
Brandon
"And I says Tell me I'm wrong and
he says I can't baby, cuz you're not!"
- The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs At Midnight
Defender
I couldn't agree more... while Hondas are very good cars, if you take care
of it, ANY car should give you 150,000 good miles.
Now, when you go over 200,000, that's when the REAL PAYBACK starts kicking
in.
Besides, I can get parts for any of my VDub Watercooled for pretty cheap at
tons of places right here on the net or as close as my local AutoZone or
parts store.
The hard part is finding and keeping a good watercooled mechanic worth his
salt.
Yep ... they're all corruptible (so are we).
rwh...@nr.infi.net
>But statistically speaking? If you pick a random Honda and a random VW,
>any random cars, the chances are incredibly better that the Honda will
>prove to be more reliable and less expensive over the long term than the VW
>will.
While everything I have heard is consistent with the statement that the
Honda is likely to be more reliable, I have not actually heard much to the effect
that the Honda is less expensive. I suppose it depends upon where you go to have
it fixed - hence the difficulty of amassing data - but the expense is the product
of how frequently it breaks down [reliability] AND the average expense of the
repair. I get the impression that Hondas are not cheap to work on. [My Rabbit on
the other hand, is, but other than my mechanic's word that "Passats are not bad
to work on either," I really don't know about the expense of fixing Passats.]
I do recall an issue of Consumer Reports long ago, which tabulated BOTH
reliability and expense. The Acura got REALLY great figures for reliability, but had
such exorbitant repair costs that the average expense of maintaining one was only
somewhere near average. This is not just a theoretical issue. The answers to the
two questions can differ markedly IN PRACTICE.
--------------------------------------------------------------
"I would predict that there are far greater mistakes waiting
to be made by someone with your obvious talent for it."
Orac to Vila. [City at the Edge of the World.]
-----------------------------------------------
R.W. Hutchinson. | rwh...@nr.infi.net
Nevets
On Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:42:08 GMT, gri...@NOSPAMmindless.com (Brandon
Sommerville) wrote:
>Darryl Clark had the nerve to say:
>
>>Hey, if you want to compare numbers, my '96 Impala SS will out
>>accerlerate both, has 25% more interior and trunk space, will
>>post a .86 skid and has better resale value. I also got it for
>>$24.4k.
>
>And it comes with a complimentary captain's hat too! Try maneuvering
>that boat through anything tight.
It's likely easier to manuever than my Integra.
Nice car, but the visibility is so poor it's hard to locate the
corners of the vehicle.
This is endemic of Honda's in general. If you start going around
parking lot's you'll notice most Integra's, Civics, Preludes, Accords
and such have scraped up bumpers. :(
Nick Markou
(ns) wrote:
>
> In article <347CF6...@interlinx.qc.ca>, nick...@interlinx.qc.ca wrote:
>
> > > Yes, but it's past quality has been spotty it's built in Mexico and it's a
> > > HATCHBACK (many associate this shape with cheaper economy cars, not $20k
> > > cars).
> >
> > Really? The Porsche 928,944, and 924 were all hatchbacks...the Saab
> > 900's have always been hatchbacks, the 318ti and the American ponycars
> > are hatchbacks, so is almost every minivan out there..
>
> CURRENT perception that hatchbacks are el cheapo junk.
GEEE..THANKS FOR CLEARING THAT UP, I really didn't understand the
original post I guess. <sarcasm>
> The 928, 944, 924 existed back BEFORE this perception. Notice that they
> don't CURRENTLY exist simultaneously with this perception.
Ummm...maybe you just got into cars, but the 928 was around from 1977 to
1991 the 968 (nee 944) was around until 1994ish, so was the Golf/Rabbit,
the Civic, the Mazda 323, The Saab 900, and a pile more hatchbacks than
are on the road today, If you look around, there are few cheap
hatchbacks left for sale (compared to their heyday in the early 80's)
and there are comparatively few sports cars for sale...BTW did I mention
the Supra, RX-7, and 300ZX were also hatchbacks...so is the integra, all
were/are NOT el cheapo cars in price or public perception.
>
> Saab is moving away from the three door.
That's GM's close minded decision, NOT Saabs (they only built hatchbacks
for how many decades?).
> 318ti? If we're lucky, BMW will
> force people back to accepting hatchbacks, away from thinking that
> "hatchback" and "fun to drive/pocket rocket" are mutually exclusive.
Actually the hatchback IS what started the whole pocket rocket
craze...the GTI and the Dodge Omni GLH had a LOT to do with that. The
BMW is a poseur's car...calling it a pocket rocket is offensive to both
the VW and the Honda crowd reading thier respective groups. You can't
honestly tell me that the Civic Si's and the GTI's were insignificant,
and BMW is coming along with their overweight, very slow, pimpmobile and
the world is going to think of them as pioneers...any idiot knows what a
pocket rocket is, and they know it will smoke thier minivan/family
sedan, or just about anything else they are driving...why do you think
the guys on the Mustang groups are constantly wondering how they can
beat VR6's and GSR's? (there's the hatchback theme again)
>
> >.sorry but a
> > $100,000 928 doesn;t hit me as a cheapo car...
>
> When was the 928 last sold? And when was it EVER $100,000?
1991 (well...kinda)...Sorry I quoted the Canadian price.. it finished
off around the US$85K mark -close enough to 100K for argument
sake...I'll be more careful next time and look up the price and argue
using exact figures...seeing as almost nobody in the honda or VW groups
was ever able to afford a new 928, I think the argument is moot....and
the 928 in anybodys book was without a doubt very upscale.
--
Darryl Clark
gri...@NOSPAMmindless.com (Brandon Sommerville) wrote:
>Darryl Clark had the nerve to say:
>
>>Hey, if you want to compare numbers, my '96 Impala SS will out
>>accerlerate both, has 25% more interior and trunk space, will
>>post a .86 skid and has better resale value. I also got it for
>>$24.4k.
>
>And it comes with a complimentary captain's hat too! Try maneuvering
>that boat through anything tight.
>
e specs and compare to what Edmunds has to say. Then,God willing, drive one! I have a bilstein suspended Fox with sway bars and Hor =
springs,an Audi Quattro and have driven many a jap "sports coupe" and the SS is the best of the lot. I have noproblems getting aroun=
d the slow VW's around Lake Tahoe. Is that tight enough for you?
Brandon Sommerville
Darryl Clark had the nerve to say:
>gri...@NOSPAMmindless.com (Brandon Sommerville) wrote:
>>Darryl Clark had the nerve to say:
>>
>>>Hey, if you want to compare numbers, my '96 Impala SS will out
>>>accerlerate both, has 25% more interior and trunk space, will
>>>post a .86 skid and has better resale value. I also got it for
>>>$24.4k.
>>
>>And it comes with a complimentary captain's hat too! Try maneuvering
>>that boat through anything tight.
>>
>Why would I need a captains hat? This car is no goddamn boat! It has
>tighter handling than a shit suspended Jetta GLX. Check out the specs
>and compare to what Edmunds has to say. Then,God willing, drive one!
>I have a bilstein suspended Fox with sway bars and Hor springs,an Audi
>Quattro and have driven many a jap "sports coupe" and the SS is the
>best of the lot. I have noproblems getting around the slow VW's around
>Lake Tahoe. Is that tight enough for you?
>
I dunno. What kind of VWs are you talking about? That car is HUGE.
Have I driven one? No. Have I ridden in one? Yes. It was a little
too wallowy for my tastes. It may have just been a bad example of the
lot, but from my experiences, any car that size designed for the
American market comes with suspension components designed for comfort
first.
For the record, I test drove a '97 GTI VR6 and found the same problem.
My '87 Scirocco with a tired suspension was more firm.
Darryl Clark
With the addition of a 1.5" Herb Adams swaybar ($115) and a
second gen. F-body sway bar ($30 from a wrecker). The car
corners flat as a slot car.It is fun going through turns and
watching the corners of the front not rise like most cars. The
shocks are fine, and unlike a VW, came with real tires,
Goodrich 255-50-17, Z rated.I have quickly become a GM convert.
And when comparing the Passat to the Catera, news is it will be
available with a LS1 (yup, the new corvette motor) in Australia
and could be available in the U.S. Over 300hp.
chow
>
> Statistically speaking, which means taking a LARGE sample (larger than
just
> your son's Jetta), Hondas *are* more reliable.
>
> I can find you a lemon Honda, just like I can find you the perfectly
> running, never breaks down VW. On an individual basis, sure.
>
> But statistically speaking? If you pick a random Honda and a random VW,
> any random cars, the chances are incredibly better that the Honda will
> prove to be more reliable and less expensive over the long term than the
VW
> will.
>
> delete the first quote mark and the ""REMOVETHIS". from my address for
> return mail
I totally agree with your statement. I owned a 1989 VW Jetta GL (8-valve)
and basically everything on this car broke down after 100,000km. Those
items included alternator, right CV boot and joint, water pump, master
cylinder, front strut tower bearings (left and right), throwout bearing
(inside the transmission), starter motor, and "clunking" noise from the
transmission when removing my foot from gas pedal (dealer mechanics and
non-dealer mechanics could hear the noise but I did not want to waste money
on "disgnosing" the problem inside the transmission). Eventually I sold
the car at 135,000km considering the money and time I spent on that car.
I did NOT race the car.
I did NOT abuse it.
I FOLLOWED dealer recommended maintenance schedule (all receipts
available).
About 50-50 city and highway driving.
I owned a Tercel, Corolla, Integra, and Civic in the past but none of them
gave me any trouble like that. I did not blame anyone. I just will not
purchase any VW products anymore. But I did learn a lot from this
newsgroup. And I am driving a 98 Corolla now.
Andrew
LL&J Baker
Nick Markou wrote:
>
> > : > How can you even want to compare a soulless piece of japanese tin to a real
> > : > car.
> >
> > : any and all the VWs and BMWs I've owned in my 35 years of
> > : driving. Plus it spends a lot less time at the mechanic.
>
> Gee...musta been tough beating a couple diesels and a wannabe 318
> huh?.... Enjoy your coffee waiting for your GS-R to spool up to 6000RPM
> whilst VR6's and the 6 cylinder BMW's are long gone.
Three points:
- when I say beats the snot out of them, I mean *in*every*way*,
not just speed. Total ownership experience.
- You don't know what VWs and BMWs I've owned.
- You realize that a 328 BMW and a GSR have the same QM trap
speed ? So much for "long gone".
jrb
Lars Riisboell
In article <8801497...@dejanews.com>, Dina...@aol.com says...
>
>Can anyone give me some feedback on VW reliability vs. Honda reliability?
>All I get from my father or brother when I tell them I'm thinking of
>buying a VW is grunts and stories of how they heard how VWs are so
>unreliable (i.e. electrical problems). I'm currently looking at the '98
>Passat and the '98 Accord coupe. Both seem to be in great demand, and
>honestly I'm leaning towards the Passat, but I need ammo to convince my
>father so he doesn't give me the father knows best routine! All the cars
>in our family (including my old car are japanese--Lexus, Honda, Acura--
>except my dad's which is a mercedes. My family's a little biased so
>someone throw me a lifeboat!
>
>Any information for/against either make is appreciated!
>
>Thanks!
>
>Dina
>
>-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Because of rust I just got my front doors and engine compartment repainted on
my 2 year old Civic. The Passat has 11 years rust warranty. After 10 years and
3 Honda's I have ordered a Passat Variant.
Lars R. Petersen
Ryan Rahim
LL&J Baker (jba...@azstarnet.com) wrote:
: Nick Markou wrote:
: >
: > > : > How can you even want to compare a soulless piece of japanese tin to a real
: > > : > car.
: > >
: > > : Hehe. My soulless piece of tin (A GSR) beats the snot out of
: > > : any and all the VWs and BMWs I've owned in my 35 years of
: > > : driving. Plus it spends a lot less time at the mechanic.
: >
: > Gee...musta been tough beating a couple diesels and a wannabe 318
: > huh?.... Enjoy your coffee waiting for your GS-R to spool up to 6000RPM
: > whilst VR6's and the 6 cylinder BMW's are long gone.
: Three points:
: - when I say beats the snot out of them, I mean *in*every*way*,
: not just speed. Total ownership experience.
According to J.D. Powers, BMW owners have a higher ownership satisfaction
than Honda owners.
: - You don't know what VWs and BMWs I've owned.
That's right, and you seem afraid to tell us, as it'll just make your
comparison more ridiculous.
: - You realize that a 328 BMW and a GSR have the same QM trap
: speed ? So much for "long gone".
That would make both slower than a GTI VR6. Really, speed isn't
everything. A 328i, is an overall superior driving maching to the GSR.
Integras, with their Civic-roots should be compared to VWs, not BMWs. You
pay for what you get.
Ryan
: jrb
--
Happiness isn't just around the corner...it _IS_ the corner
Nick Markou
> > > : Hehe. My soulless piece of tin (A GSR) beats the snot out of
> > > : any and all the VWs and BMWs I've owned in my 35 years of
> > > : driving. Plus it spends a lot less time at the mechanic.
> >
> > Gee...musta been tough beating a couple diesels and a wannabe 318
> > huh?.... Enjoy your coffee waiting for your GS-R to spool up to 6000RPM
> > whilst VR6's and the 6 cylinder BMW's are long gone.
>
> Three points:
>
> - when I say beats the snot out of them, I mean *in*every*way*,
> not just speed. Total ownership experience.
A matter of opinion...one I can respect, but not one I agree with.
>
> - You don't know what VWs and BMWs I've owned.
Gee...let me guess what internet bullshit this will be...OK you've owned
an M3 (any M car will do) or an 8-series, and on the VW side, it was
likely one of the most exclusively modded Corrados in the western
hemisphere right?
>
> - You realize that a 328 BMW and a GSR have the same QM trap
> speed ? So much for "long gone".
Boy, I bet every owner of a new 328is or GSR heads to the drag
strip...besides, those figures everyone pulls out are essentially
useless because:
1. They are done by a professional driver
2. The magazine isn't making payments on the car
3. They don;t have to worry about driving the car to work tommorow.
I'm talking about daily driving, y'know the same reason millions of
people are out spending 20K on a car ie: get to work, buy food & stuff,
have some fun when you get a chance...I was talking about being in the
car, driving like a drone in the morning, you hit the gas in a 328 or
VR6, the car goes fast...simple, even for you...you hit the gas in a
GSR, it whines and drones and then holysheet its going fast...
Without a doubt the GSR is the track star/sunday drive car, for the
daily grind its a little too hardcore for my 26 year old bones...seeing
as you've been a mechanic for 35 years, I really can;t figure how your
mid 50's chassis can handle the daily grind in it.
Bottom line is, I;m glad you like your GSR, now quit comparing it to
BMW's...because its not comparable (in any way shape or form), if you
think its better than VW's then that's just fine, at least there is a
comparison to be made.
>
> jrb
JACEK KIECA
Wow!
What a thread! I thought the Porshe 911 Turbo and ABS debate were long, but this one has
picked up momentum! And drifted off the topic again... One thing for sure! I drive a
HONDA and I'll most certainly buy another one. In my opinion VWs are cool too, just when
I bought my '84 Accord, I test drove a Jetta and both cars being standard transmission
1.8liters, I liked the Accord engine better and the gear change is way better! I mean VW
was sloppy at the best! And half the times I thought I had it in 1st it was in reverse.
Talking about manual transmissions, I have to say without a doubt the best shifting
offered in an affordable car, would have to go to Mazda and the Miata would be the
winner! I mean that car's tranny is a delight! DelSol comes quite close, but not quite
there! VWs? Sorry to say that, but no way!
Anyways, the only VWs I will consider in spring are: Corrado SLC (VR6), or '91 Jetta GLi
16v. But most of all I'll be looking for a nice '91 Accord EX-R or '91 CRX si or '92-'93
Civic Si. While talking about Civic Si, does anyone know where to look for a donor car
with the VTEC engine off either delSol VTEC (1.6l, 160 hp) or the Integra GS-R (1.7l, 170
hp)? BTW did anyone successfully droped in a 2.2l VTEC from a Prelude into a Civic? That
would be a definte screamer!
J.
brian richardson
Ryan Rahim wrote:
>
> LL&J Baker (jba...@azstarnet.com) wrote:
> : Nick Markou wrote:
> : >
> : > > : > How can you even want to compare a soulless piece of japanese tin to a real
> : > > : > car.
> : > >
> : > > : any and all the VWs and BMWs I've owned in my 35 years of
> : > > : driving. Plus it spends a lot less time at the mechanic.
> : >
> : > Gee...musta been tough beating a couple diesels and a wannabe 318
> : > huh?.... Enjoy your coffee waiting for your GS-R to spool up to 6000RPM
> : > whilst VR6's and the 6 cylinder BMW's are long gone.
>
> : Three points:
>
> : - when I say beats the snot out of them, I mean *in*every*way*,
> : not just speed. Total ownership experience.
>
> than Honda owners.
>
> : - You don't know what VWs and BMWs I've owned.
>
> That's right, and you seem afraid to tell us, as it'll just make your
> comparison more ridiculous.
>
> : speed ? So much for "long gone".
>
> everything. A 328i, is an overall superior driving maching to the GSR.
> Integras, with their Civic-roots should be compared to VWs, not BMWs. You
> pay for what you get.
>
> Ryan
>
> : jrb
>
> --
> Happiness isn't just around the corner...it _IS_ the corner
I agree that GSRs are better compared, in general, to VWs; however, I think
the Prelude compares real well to the 318TI. After driving that over-priced
baby beemer, I went back to my '92 Prelude SI and tipped my hat to Honda.
Why??? Well, simply because as an engineering piece, the Honda was tighter,
more refined, had a far superior engine in terms of smoothness and mid-range
torque, had a more precise shifter and just as much "character" (define as you
wish). Saying all of this, I must admit that I really like BMWs and VWs as
design statements. But, I've spent the past 15 years driving and enjoying the
fruits of Honda's excellent racing heritage, which merits at least a
comparable level of respect.
Brian
LL&J Baker
(Oh gawd, not Ryan again...)
Oh well.
Ryan Rahim wrote:
>
> LL&J Baker (jba...@azstarnet.com) wrote:
>
> : - when I say beats the snot out of them, I mean *in*every*way*,
> : not just speed. Total ownership experience.
>
> According to J.D. Powers, BMW owners have a higher ownership satisfaction
> than Honda owners.
But *my* experience is what counts to me. I've seen too
many of *my* german cars turn to shit too fast. I loved
them when they were new (believe me - I was an early fan
of european "feel"). They just didn't stay new very *long*.
All of the japanese vehicles I've owned stood up to the
test of time better. Yeah, it's just my experience, but
that's a lot of experience !
>
> : - You don't know what VWs and BMWs I've owned.
>
> That's right, and you seem afraid to tell us, as it'll just make your
> comparison more ridiculous.
Bugs, rabbits, Quanta, a very modified 2002. No fear.
>
> : - You realize that a 328 BMW and a GSR have the same QM trap
> : speed ? So much for "long gone".
>
> That would make both slower than a GTI VR6. Really, speed isn't
> everything. A 328i, is an overall superior driving maching to the GSR.
> Integras, with their Civic-roots should be compared to VWs, not BMWs. You
> pay for what you get.
Oh true enough. But I can get *two* GSRs for the price
of a 328. Is it *twice* as good ? An M3 might be.
jrb
........................................................
........................................................
........................................................
........................................................
........................................................
........................................................
........................................................
Michael Guest
LL&J Baker (jba...@azstarnet.com) wrote:
:
:
: Bugs, rabbits, Quanta, a very modified 2002. No fear.
Well no kidding they didnt have the performance or quality of your
GS-R...20 years advancement in technology will do that...
[agp]
>
> Oh true enough. But I can get *two* GSRs for the price
> of a 328. Is it *twice* as good ? An M3 might be.
I think its twice as good. This is what you said:> :
> - when I say beats the snot out of them, I mean *in*every*way*,
> : not just speed. Total ownership experience.
Well if you dont mean speed, lets look at the interior of the BMWs, the
reliability, the comfort, its clearely an superior driving machine.
The interior of those integras suck! How can you compare it to a BMW, or
even a VW. I wouldnt think twice before changing a gsr for a BMW.
[agp]
>And half the times I thought I had it in 1st it was in reverse.
You dont have to make an ass out of yourself.
Randy Mees
JACEK KIECA wrote:
>
> Wow!
>
> What a thread! I thought the Porshe 911 Turbo and ABS debate were long, but this one has
> picked up momentum! And drifted off the topic again... One thing for sure! I drive a
> HONDA and I'll most certainly buy another one. In my opinion VWs are cool too, just when
> I bought my '84 Accord, I test drove a Jetta and both cars being standard transmission
> 1.8liters, I liked the Accord engine better and the gear change is way better! I mean VW
Yeah, I was in the same position in '84. '84 Jetta GLI or '84 Honda
Accord.
In the end, I bought the '84 Jetta GLI, stiff suspension, close ratio
tranny, bigger motor... a car I believe Motor Trend described as "a car
worthy of pagan desires and lust... and should resign car salesman from
other makes to hide their faces near the water cooler".
I don't think the '84 Accord garnered that response from the Automotive
press.
And looking at how most '84 Accords have held up compared to my Jetta
GLI, I know I made the right decision.
--
Randy Mees...
****************************************************
MR. WHITE: "You shoot me in a dream,
you'd better wake up and apologize!"
-Reservoir Dogs
****************************************************
Ryan Rahim
brian richardson (deb...@mindspring.com) wrote:
: Ryan Rahim wrote:
: > That would make both slower than a GTI VR6. Really, speed isn't
: > everything. A 328i, is an overall superior driving maching to the GSR.
: > Integras, with their Civic-roots should be compared to VWs, not BMWs. You
: > pay for what you get.
: >
: > Ryan
: >
: > : jrb
: >
: > --
: > Happiness isn't just around the corner...it _IS_ the corner
: I agree that GSRs are better compared, in general, to VWs; however, I think
: the Prelude compares real well to the 318TI. After driving that over-priced
: baby beemer, I went back to my '92 Prelude SI and tipped my hat to Honda.
: Why??? Well, simply because as an engineering piece, the Honda was tighter,
: more refined, had a far superior engine in terms of smoothness and mid-range
: torque, had a more precise shifter and just as much "character" (define as you
: wish).
I agree with you that BMW and MB have never been good at providing a lot
of car for a little $. Especially in the segments dominated by larger
bread-and-butter players such as VW, Nissan, Toyota and Honda. BMWs and
MBs shine in higher end segments of the market, and nothing really
compares to them. However, the 318Ti, though priced like the Prelude, was
not meant to compete. It's a fairly decent, RWD hatchback meant to get
younger (usually poorer) owners into the BMW fold early. It's
competition is the GTI VR6, which is quicker performance wise, but does
not have as good fit and finish, or "prestige." So while your Prelude
comes with a sporty 4 cyl engine, BMW throws one of their
economy-oriented, small-displacement 4 cyl engines into the Ti.
: Saying all of this, I must admit that I really like BMWs and VWs as
: design statements. But, I've spent the past 15 years driving and enjoying the
: fruits of Honda's excellent racing heritage, which merits at least a
: comparable level of respect.
Maybe in the Prelude, Integra and NSX but not in the N.A. Civic, Accord and
the rest of the line-up which are much less sporty, and meant to appeal
to the non-enthusiast.
: Brian
Ryan
Ryan Rahim
LL&J Baker (jba...@azstarnet.com) wrote:
: (Oh gawd, not Ryan again...)
Heh heh. That's ok, play nice, and I'll play nice too. :-)
: Oh well.
: Ryan Rahim wrote:
: >
: > LL&J Baker (jba...@azstarnet.com) wrote:
: >
: > : - when I say beats the snot out of them, I mean *in*every*way*,
: > : not just speed. Total ownership experience.
: >
: > According to J.D. Powers, BMW owners have a higher ownership satisfaction
: > than Honda owners.
: But *my* experience is what counts to me.
But you're sharing this opinion in a public forum, and it was misleading
at best not to clarify where your position was coming from. The fact of
the matter is German cars are usually ranked very highly in "owner
satisfaction" surveys such as the J.D. Powers APPEAL survey, and other
surveys that rank car ownership experience.
: I've seen too
: many of *my* german cars turn to shit too fast.
Yup, I've seen your list of German cars - Rabbits, Beetles, Quantum, 2002
and it ain't pretty. In fact, your views are clearly outdated, and it is
plain wrong to compare these older generation cars to a nice new modern
car like the Integra GSR. A much fairer comparison would be to compare
those cars with the same era Honda. And you know what? They were all
rust-buckets and you hardly see any of them on the road. This led one
consumer publication to call old Hondas: "unreliable rust buckets with
biodegradable engines." That said, the VW Beetle is still one of the most
popular old car on the road today, and it is simply amazing how long
they've lasted. The 2002Tii is a classic, and the Rabbit GTI is still
hot with the high-school set. Any old Hondas with this type of
following? Didn't think so.
I loved
: them when they were new (believe me - I was an early fan
: of european "feel"). They just didn't stay new very *long*.
: All of the japanese vehicles I've owned stood up to the
: test of time better. Yeah, it's just my experience, but
: that's a lot of experience !
No, your comparisons are invalid. Most other people are of the opinion
that European cars do last longer than Japanese cars. Look at how many
old BMWs, Volvos, Saabs, VWs, MBs are on the road today. Look at how
well the interior and exterior of the BMWs and MBs have held up compared
to Japanese vehicles. Japanese vehicles are known to provide more
initial reliability for the first few years - not more quality or durability.
Now let's get down to how well a '90s Honda is built to stand the test
of time compared to a similar era VW. I'll compare my friend's '92
Integra with my similar year Passat. While the Passat uses a stainless
steel exhaust system, my friend has had to replace his exhaust 3 times
due to corrosion. I'm still on my original exhaust after close to 7 years.
On my Passat, the gas tank and fuel filler hose (that connects from the
filler to the tank) is made out of plastic. In his car, it's a metal
pipe that is rusting away and needs to be replaced in a few months or he
wouldn't be able to fill his gas tank! His
sheetmetal is thinner, his paint is of a lesser quality and he has a much
poorer corrosion warranty. My car still looks great, and since many key
areas are galvanized, have no corrosion problems whatsoever. The
thin upholstery in his car looks a little faded and worn, while the
upholstery in my car is holding up much better. Put both cars up on the
hoist and the difference is simply stunning. There is rust everywhere on
the undercarriage and suspension/brake components of the Integra. The VW
has wax injected everywhere - thick layers plastered on to the
undercarriage and in the fenders that still continues to bleed on a hot
day, 7 years later, but protects the car from the elements. That's
anecdotal evidence for you.
: > : - You don't know what VWs and BMWs I've owned.
: >
: > That's right, and you seem afraid to tell us, as it'll just make your
: > comparison more ridiculous.
: Bugs, rabbits, Quanta, a very modified 2002. No fear.
You _REALLY_ shouldn't be comparing the performance of these cars to your
GSR. Was there any Honda car that could compare to a 2002Tii?
: > : - You realize that a 328 BMW and a GSR have the same QM trap
: > : speed ? So much for "long gone".
: >
: > That would make both slower than a GTI VR6. Really, speed isn't
: > everything. A 328i, is an overall superior driving maching to the GSR.
: > Integras, with their Civic-roots should be compared to VWs, not BMWs. You
: > pay for what you get.
: Oh true enough. But I can get *two* GSRs for the price
: of a 328. Is it *twice* as good ? An M3 might be.
You know a lot of people couldn't put up with the torqueless, buzziness
of the GSR, while the 328 is a very nice driving, premium feeling
automobile. Maybe that's worth 2X the money for those who have it.
Harvey Cheung
Harvey Cheung <har...@sprint.ca> wrote in article
<01bcfcb8$92b44140$420067d1@default>...
> Sorry.....if you don't know the difference between 1st and reverse, maybe
> you should stick to driving, well, bland commuters like Accords and
Civics.
> There is really no way to mistake those two gears in a VW unless a)
there
> was something wrong with the shifter or b) you are severely ham-handed.
> Better yet, perhaps an automatic tranny would be more to your liking (and
> safer).
>
> By the way, isn't VTEC over-rated? Those cars are torqueless, esp. in
the
> low and mid rpms where power is needed the most. From stoplight to
> stoplight, and city driving, I'd put my money on a stock Scirocco 16V or
> even a Rabbit GTI for sheer quickness. VTEC has high hp output at
redline
> but no significant torque differences from a regular engine.
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I welcome some discussion on this
> matter, but ..... no Miatas please!
>
Brian Richardson
Ryan,
It's unfortunate that so many NA drivers are non-enthusiasts, thus watering
down the marketing decisions of the Hondas and Toyotas of the world. I'll tell
you, though, that when I tested a Corrado VR6, I loved the motor and the
styling, but the shifter was bad enough to turn me away all by itself--that's
an unforgivable shortcoming for those of us who love to shift our own, and
have been spoiled with mechanically precise 5-speeds elsewhere. In fact, the
last 325IS I drove (which I expected to provide me with a driving epiphany)
was a little disappointing, especially compared with my brother's 325 from the
last generation. BMW seemed to suck money out of the newer interior, the
plastics seemed cheaper and the glove box rattled. I was quite surprised--but
I'd still love to spend more time in one some day.
Brian
LL&J Baker
Nick Markou wrote:
> huh?.... Enjoy your coffee waiting for your GS-R to spool up to 6000RPM
> whilst VR6's and the 6 cylinder BMW's are long gone.
*Up* to 6000 ? When I'm in attack mode, I'm usually around 7000
=/- 1000. Do you live anywhere near Arizona ? You should take
a ride with me up my local mtn. highway. You might get a new
take on the joys of revving.
jrb
LL&J Baker
Nick Markou wrote:
> John Baker wrote:
> >
> > - when I say beats the snot out of them, I mean *in*every*way*,
> > not just speed. Total ownership experience.
>
> A matter of opinion...one I can respect, but not one I agree with.
Thank you. Back to ya.
> >
> > - You don't know what VWs and BMWs I've owned.
>
> Gee...let me guess what internet bullshit this will be...OK you've owned
> an M3 (any M car will do) or an 8-series, and on the VW side,
Well, now you are escalating the $$ of the discussion.
I will grant you the M3. I am thinking of getting one.
It is what I call a strong price-point -- a lot of car
for reasonable bucks. I considered the GS-R to be a
strong price-point too, but lower on the bucks scale.
Ryan claims my list of cars (Beetle, Rabbit, Quantum, mod-ed
2002, 320, German Capri) is too old to be relevant. But I've been
burned so bad I'm no longer willing to buy the stuff. I have better
things to do than get to know my German mechanics (and their
families) on a first-name basis. Have the cars (espec VWs
since that's the thread) improved enough that I should give
them a chance?? It's possible, I'll admit.
>
> >
> > - You realize that a 328 BMW and a GSR have the same QM trap
> > speed ? So much for "long gone".
>
> Boy, I bet every owner of a new 328is or GSR heads to the drag
> strip...besides, those figures everyone pulls out are essentially
> useless because:
>
> 1. They are done by a professional driver
> 2. The magazine isn't making payments on the car
> 3. They don;t have to worry about driving the car to work tommorow.
That's why I picked trap speed. It gives the best indication
of useful power without relying on launch and driver skill the
way ET measurements (0-60 and QM) do.
>
> I'm talking about daily driving, y'know the same reason millions of
> people are out spending 20K on a car ie: get to work, buy food & stuff,
> have some fun when you get a chance...I was talking about being in the
> car, driving like a drone in the morning, you hit the gas in a 328 or
> VR6, the car goes fast...simple, even for you...you hit the gas in a
> GSR, it whines and drones and then holysheet its going fast...
I'm *definitely* more interested in how a car goes *fast*
than how it goes slow. Call me crazy. Call me a driving
enthusiast. But good power is never more than a down-shift
away in a GSR. And the shifter works REAL GOOD. Unlike
some... oh never mind.
>
> Without a doubt the GSR is the track star/sunday drive car, for the
Actually my drive to work is pretty decent. I hit 90 to 100
just about every day. And on weekends -- mountain highways.
Like I said in another post, you should take a trip up that
mountain. I guarantee you'd be grinning. A good set of
tires and sound effects courtesy of DC sports and a GS-R
is really a blast.
> daily grind its a little too hardcore for my 26 year old bones...seeing
> as you've been a mechanic for 35 years, I really can;t figure how your
> mid 50's chassis can handle the daily grind in it.
What are you some kinda couch potato ? I'm not a mechanic,
I'm a scientist... 50 years old.
jrb
satyr
On Sat, 29 Nov 1997 13:35:56 -0500, "[agp]" <aga...@mindspring.com>
wrote:
>
>
>Well if you dont mean speed, lets look at the interior of the BMWs, the
>reliability, the comfort, its clearely an superior driving machine.
>The interior of those integras suck! How can you compare it to a BMW, or
>even a VW. I wouldnt think twice before changing a gsr for a BMW.
I test drove a BMW a few (5?) years ago. One thing I remember is that
the interior vinyl 'skin' had drawn away from the concave curves of
the underlying structure. You could push the skin back down to the
form underneath but it would spring back. This is worse than any
problem I ever had with the interior of any my Hondas going back to my
$2400 '74 Civic.
Nick Markou
I meant that it was gutless compared to a VR6 until AFTER 6000rpm...whre
the GS-R begins to strut its stuff...glad you like to rev the shitout of
your engine, but 7000rpm is not only impratctical, its useless in the
daily commute, and seeing as the rest of us make payments on our cars
and need them to get to work, driving around at 7000rpm is something any
of us would rarely do....after all 99% of folks buy their cars to go to
work, and get groceries and stuff...If you're into Honda's and like
bragging about redlines, get into a real joymobile...one of their 13K+
rpm motorcycles....Once again, I'll state that the GSR is the track
star, but I'd rather do the daily grind in a VR6, or non-Vtec Honda or a
BMW 6 cyl. any time...
LL&J Baker
Nick Markou wrote:
>
> I meant that it was gutless compared to a VR6 until AFTER 6000rpm...whre
Actually it starts pulling pretty good at 4500, but yeah.
> your engine, but 7000rpm is not only impratctical, its useless in the
> daily commute, and seeing as the rest of us make payments on our cars
I guess my commute is better than most.
> and need them to get to work, driving around at 7000rpm is something any
> of us would rarely do....after all 99% of folks buy their cars to go to
> work, and get groceries and stuff..
> star, but I'd rather do the daily grind in a VR6, or non-Vtec Honda or a
> BMW 6 cyl. any time...
My definition of an enthusiast is someone who is more
willing to make impractical trade-offs for the sake of
fun. That's me. But really, a GSR is just fine for
daily junk. If you *really* have a bad commute you
might think about an automatic. Ugh.
jrb
Gauthier Groult
Nick Markou wrote:
>
> LL&J Baker wrote:
> I meant that it was gutless compared to a VR6 until AFTER 6000rpm...whre
> the GS-R begins to strut its stuff...glad you like to rev the shitout of
> your engine, but 7000rpm is not only impratctical, its useless in the
> daily commute, and seeing as the rest of us make payments on our cars
> and need them to get to work, driving around at 7000rpm is something any
> of us would rarely do....after all 99% of folks buy their cars to go to
> work, and get groceries and stuff...If you're into Honda's and like
7000 rpm is hardly impractical, its over 1000 rpms short of redline!
Egads man! You've got to use the engine properly. Besides, the small
VTEC engines tend to be incredibly smooth for a non-balanced shafted,
high revving power plant when you hit those stratospheric revs.
Speaking from experience, driving around at 7000 rpms does no harm to
the engines. After 70,000 miles of such (well, o.k., only 5000 rpms at
100 mph through the desert), over 50 dyno passes, 50+ dragstrip passes,
dozens of autocross laps and the occasional road course the stock
internals on my engine are still holding up fine. Talk to most DOHC
VTEC owners and you'll find they rev to the limiter at least once per
drive - you simply can't help it!
> bragging about redlines, get into a real joymobile...one of their 13K+
> rpm motorcycles....Once again, I'll state that the GSR is the track
> star, but I'd rather do the daily grind in a VR6, or non-Vtec Honda or a
> BMW 6 cyl. any time...
Wish I still had my bike. But, the VTEC engines are usually geared low
enough that they pull reasonably well even at lower rpms (compare top
gear roll on times to a VR6 car for example - not as different as you
might think). Compared to a non-VTEC Honda, the VTECs have very similar
low rpm torque curves and with tighter gearing take better advantage of
it. The only disadvantage in my mind? More noise, but that shouldn't
bother enthusiasts - the people who tend to purchase the DOHC VTECs
anyways.
Cheers,
SFC
Greg Husemeier
Ryan Rahim <rah...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote in article
<65ob10$7vn$3...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>...
> LL&J Baker (jba...@azstarnet.com) wrote:
>
> According to J.D. Powers, BMW owners have a higher ownership satisfaction
> than Honda owners.
Probably a cult thing.
> : - You realize that a 328 BMW and a GSR have the same QM trap
> : speed ? So much for "long gone".
>
> That would make both slower than a GTI VR6.
The former Prelude VTEC and the current Integra Type R are faster than the
VR6. The fastest VW in the US (stock) is slower than the fastest stock
Honda. Tough to admit, huh Ryan?
> Really, speed isn't
> everything. A 328i, is an overall superior driving maching to the GSR.
> Integras, with their Civic-roots should be compared to VWs, not BMWs.
You
> pay for what you get.
The GSR has always been rated favorably in the C&D handling tests, right up
there with the A4 and 318. In fact the Honda Prelude outhandled the BMW in
the C&D Best Handling <30K test. So yes, Honda can be compared to BMW, and
it can win.
Greg
Greg Husemeier
Ryan Rahim <rah...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote in article
<65pvmv$aho$1...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>...
> Yup, I've seen your list of German cars - Rabbits, Beetles, Quantum, 2002
> and it ain't pretty. In fact, your views are clearly outdated, and it is
> plain wrong to compare these older generation cars to a nice new modern
> car like the Integra GSR.
How about, say the 1995 GSR vs. 1995 VW GTI VR6? There were dozens of
problems with this VW, possibly linked to problems with quality control in
the Mexican plant. Is 1995 modern enough for you? How about the hardware
and electrical ratings of the early 90's Passats and Jetta's compared to
say the Accord and Integra (according to Consumer Reports)? If you look at
the statistics and think of probability/regression analysis, any
current/future model Honda will have fewer problems.
> A much fairer comparison would be to compare
> those cars with the same era Honda. And you know what? They were all
> rust-buckets and you hardly see any of them on the road.
I see many 80's era Honda's on the road. Perhaps it's because I don't live
in the rust belt.
> This led one
> consumer publication to call old Hondas: "unreliable rust buckets with
> biodegradable engines."
Do you have any references ?
> That said, the VW Beetle is still one of the most
> popular old car on the road today, and it is simply amazing how long
> they've lasted. The 2002Tii is a classic, and the Rabbit GTI is still
> hot with the high-school set. Any old Hondas with this type of
> following? Didn't think so.
Agreed that the Bettle is one of the most popular, but the rest is just
opinion.
> No, your comparisons are invalid. Most other people are of the opinion
> that European cars do last longer than Japanese cars.
Says who? Got any stats to back this up?
> Look at how many
> old BMWs, Volvos, Saabs, VWs, MBs are on the road today. Look at how
> well the interior and exterior of the BMWs and MBs have held up compared
> to Japanese vehicles. Japanese vehicles are known to provide more
> initial reliability for the first few years - not more quality or
durability.
This is all just opinion. Back it up with facts and I'll believe you.
>
> Now let's get down to how well a '90s Honda is built to stand the test
> of time compared to a similar era VW. I'll compare my friend's '92
> Integra with my similar year Passat. While the Passat uses a stainless
> steel exhaust system, my friend has had to replace his exhaust 3 times
> due to corrosion.
And I have a 92 Civic with 113K miles. Still the stock exhaust, and I
believe the muffler is stainless.
> I'm still on my original exhaust after close to 7 years.
> On my Passat, the gas tank and fuel filler hose (that connects from the
> filler to the tank) is made out of plastic. In his car, it's a metal
> pipe that is rusting away and needs to be replaced in a few months or he
> wouldn't be able to fill his gas tank!
No rust here either.
> His
> sheetmetal is thinner, his paint is of a lesser quality and he has a much
> poorer corrosion warranty.
That might be true, it seems like Honda has thinner metal.
> My car still looks great, and since many key
> areas are galvanized, have no corrosion problems whatsoever. The
> thin upholstery in his car looks a little faded and worn, while the
> upholstery in my car is holding up much better. Put both cars up on the
> hoist and the difference is simply stunning. There is rust everywhere on
> the undercarriage and suspension/brake components of the Integra. The VW
> has wax injected everywhere - thick layers plastered on to the
> undercarriage and in the fenders that still continues to bleed on a hot
> day, 7 years later, but protects the car from the elements. That's
> anecdotal evidence for you.
There's no question that VW bodies have excellent durability. In fact,
this is there strongest point. The problem is that everything attached to
the body falls apart. It's been my experience with the 3 VW's I've owned,
and several VW's that my friends have owned that their shocks, clutch,
engine mounts, and interior trim fail much sooner than they do on the
Honda's. Not to mention the numerous electrical problems that VW's
historically have had. Looks like VW admits the problem by offering the
lowest bumper to bumper warranty in the industry, 2/26! Sure the body and
drivetrain is guaranteed for 7-10 years, but that's not what fails on VW's.
>
> You know a lot of people couldn't put up with the torqueless, buzziness
> of the GSR,
While many people, including Car & Driver can.
> while the 328 is a very nice driving, premium feeling
> automobile. Maybe that's worth 2X the money for those who have it.
Sure, but for those who have less, there's an option.
Ryan Rahim
Greg Husemeier (greg...@microsoft.com) wrote:
: Ryan Rahim <rah...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote in article
: <65pvmv$aho$1...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>...
: > Yup, I've seen your list of German cars - Rabbits, Beetles, Quantum, 2002
: > and it ain't pretty. In fact, your views are clearly outdated, and it is
: > plain wrong to compare these older generation cars to a nice new modern
: > car like the Integra GSR.
: How about, say the 1995 GSR vs. 1995 VW GTI VR6?
Sure, from a buyer's perspective, these two cars certainly do compete.
However, from a company perspective, (and back in '95) the 1995 GSR
would compete with the Corrado SLC. The similarities are obvious. Both
are sporty-oriented 2 door sports coupes based on the platform of a
Civic/Golf. In fact, R&T reviewed the GSR when it first came out and
compared it against the Corrado SLC and Mazda MX-6. Aside from them
liking the VR6 engine more, they said "...and the SLC's handling is
probably class-best, but the admission price is steep." And if you've
ever driven an SLC you'd note that it is a much nicer driving,
premium-feeling automobile.
: There were dozens of
: problems with this VW, possibly linked to problems with quality control in
: the Mexican plant.
That's misleading. There are "dozens of problems" with every car on the
market. None are perfect. The current crop of VWs are nowhere close to
the bottom of any reliability surveys. The reason this discussion keeps
coming up where you make such a big deal about VW's reliability (when
they are rated higher than such marques as Chrysler) is because you're
still living in the past. VWs might not be rated as highly as some
refrigerator-appliance Japanese marques (including Honda), but they're
trouble-free enough to not make a big deal out of this "reliability issue."
: Is 1995 modern enough for you? How about the hardware
: and electrical ratings of the early 90's Passats and Jetta's compared to
: say the Accord and Integra (according to Consumer Reports)?
CR oh please. Their anal-retentive survey respondents who are unhappy
with a streaking, chattering wiper blade and complain will result in a
poor "hardware" rating, not differentiated from door handles that fall
off.
: If you look at
: the statistics and think of probability/regression analysis, any
: current/future model Honda will have fewer problems.
I'll point you to a much more statistically valid reliability
rankings source. Check out www.carpoint.msn.com, (in their used car
section.) Read the Faq on how they obtain and rate reliability. They
have a better random distribution of the population and a much larger
sample size (CR does not DARE publish their sample size). Look at how
well current VWs are rated, and compare them to Hondas. Then see how
well 91 Accords are fairing compared to '91 Passats. The results will
surprise you. (Oh yeah, the nice thing is that you can click on the
particular problem areas and it will tell you, precisely, what are the
common problems and how much it is to fix.) It seems those early 90
Accords are not holding up as well as they should be Greg, and the A3 VWs
have relatively few problems.
: > A much fairer comparison would be to compare
: > those cars with the same era Honda. And you know what? They were all
: > rust-buckets and you hardly see any of them on the road.
: I see many 80's era Honda's on the road. Perhaps it's because I don't live
: in the rust belt.
Yup, check the car-talk site (www.car-talk.com), where they survey past
owners and solicit opinions about their cars. Just about EVERY
complaint of those 80's Hondas is that they are rusting away or have
large rust problems. Then
go over to the VW section and read the comments from owners of similar
era Rabbits, Golfs and Jettas.
: > That said, the VW Beetle is still one of the most
: > popular old car on the road today, and it is simply amazing how long
: > they've lasted. The 2002Tii is a classic, and the Rabbit GTI is still
: > hot with the high-school set. Any old Hondas with this type of
: > following? Didn't think so.
: Agreed that the Bettle is one of the most popular, but the rest is just
: opinion.
The 2002Tii is most certainly a classic, which have many owners' clubs
and dedicated club races. Look how much they go for used - they have
high residual resale value. And where I grew up Rabbit GTIs were
certainly very popular cars among the high school set.
: > No, your comparisons are invalid. Most other people are of the opinion
: > that European cars do last longer than Japanese cars.
: Says who? Got any stats to back this up?
Try Fortune magazine, which has on many instances stated that Japanese
cars are designed for shorter life-span than German cars. In Japan,
after about 4 years most cars are replaced, or they have to pass a very
expensive safety inspection. Even your favourite rag, CR has commented
on how the Japanese have been decontenting with lower quality rubber
gaskets around the trunk and doors, poorer seat materials etc. Look at the
stats of avg. age of cars on the road - most are European marques such
as BMW, MB, Volvo, Saab, VW.
: > Look at how many
: > old BMWs, Volvos, Saabs, VWs, MBs are on the road today. Look at how
: > well the interior and exterior of the BMWs and MBs have held up compared
: > to Japanese vehicles. Japanese vehicles are known to provide more
: > initial reliability for the first few years - not more quality or
: durability.
: This is all just opinion. Back it up with facts and I'll believe you.
See above.
: > Now let's get down to how well a '90s Honda is built to stand the test
: > of time compared to a similar era VW. I'll compare my friend's '92
: > Integra with my similar year Passat. While the Passat uses a stainless
: > steel exhaust system, my friend has had to replace his exhaust 3 times
: > due to corrosion.
: And I have a 92 Civic with 113K miles. Still the stock exhaust, and I
: believe the muffler is stainless.
On a Civic? Dream on. I've known quite a few Civic owners who have had
to replace their mufflers (thank goodness none with the coffe-can tips)
And as you said, you don't live in the rust-belt.
: > I'm still on my original exhaust after close to 7 years.
: > On my Passat, the gas tank and fuel filler hose (that connects from the
: > filler to the tank) is made out of plastic. In his car, it's a metal
: > pipe that is rusting away and needs to be replaced in a few months or he
: > wouldn't be able to fill his gas tank!
: No rust here either.
Trust me, his Integra is built a lot better than your Civic. Just look
in the engine-bay of the two cars!
: > His
: > sheetmetal is thinner, his paint is of a lesser quality and he has a much
: > poorer corrosion warranty.
: That might be true, it seems like Honda has thinner metal.
It seems? It's a fact. Crash and you're sushi.
: > My car still looks great, and since many key
: > areas are galvanized, have no corrosion problems whatsoever. The
: > thin upholstery in his car looks a little faded and worn, while the
: > upholstery in my car is holding up much better. Put both cars up on the
: > hoist and the difference is simply stunning. There is rust everywhere on
: > the undercarriage and suspension/brake components of the Integra. The VW
: > has wax injected everywhere - thick layers plastered on to the
: > undercarriage and in the fenders that still continues to bleed on a hot
: > day, 7 years later, but protects the car from the elements. That's
: > anecdotal evidence for you.
: There's no question that VW bodies have excellent durability. In fact,
: this is there strongest point.
And is perhaps the most important factor in measuring durability. One
can keep fixing little interior buzzes, replacing engine mounts etc. but
once the body has significant corrosion, the car is as good as scrapped.
The problem is that everything attached to
: the body falls apart. It's been my experience with the 3 VW's I've owned,
: and several VW's that my friends have owned that their shocks, clutch,
: engine mounts, and interior trim fail much sooner than they do on the
: Honda's.
Yes, we all know how you like to compare your decade old VWs to current
Hondas....Shocks? It depends whether it is a higher line VW or a lower
line model. The higher line performance models such as any 16V or VR6
cars have better shock absorbers than the lower-line models. Besides, it
is just an excuse to go for high performance shocks such as Bilsteins or
Konis. I have Bilstein Sports on my Passat. Wanna bet, that they'll
last a lot longer than on your Honda's? :-)
Clutch depends on the driver, and one can easily replace it with a higher
quality sports clutch from an OEM manufacturer such as SACHS.
Engine mounts were more common failures with the A2 16V models than the
current A3s. (And at least they're designed to drop the engine in a
collision unlike the CRX where the engine ends up in the driver's lap).
Not to mention the numerous electrical problems that VW's
: historically have had. Looks like VW admits the problem by offering the
: lowest bumper to bumper warranty in the industry, 2/26! Sure the body and
: drivetrain is guaranteed for 7-10 years, but that's not what fails on VW's.
I don't know what it is with you Honda heads. The longest powertrain
warranty in the industry is evidence that they need a long warranty
because they have quality problems, while the short b2b is evidence that
the car has quality problems they don't want to deal with! The fact is
that the warranty is a compromise. 2 yrs b2b, and 2 yrs free maintenances
plus a 10 year powertrain, might be better for some people than a normal
3 yr b2b, and a 5 yr powertrain. Besides, you can always get the b2b
extended.
: > You know a lot of people couldn't put up with the torqueless, buzziness
: > of the GSR,
: While many people, including Car & Driver can.
No, they've complained about the buzziness. And in the R&T test with other
more mature sedans such as the Jetta GLX, Maxima SE, Audi A4, the GSR was
rated last. See the GSR is not as easy to live with as the Jetta, which
can provide utility, drivability and performance.
: > while the 328 is a very nice driving, premium feeling
: > automobile. Maybe that's worth 2X the money for those who have it.
: Sure, but for those who have less, there's an option.
Yup, there's the Audi A4 1.8T Quattro, the Jetta GLX, and the Passat.
Deutsches autos uber alles!
Ryan
|#1| Wildfire
> > In the end, I bought the '84 Jetta GLI, stiff suspension, close ratio
> > tranny, bigger motor... a car I believe Motor Trend described as "a car
> > worthy of pagan desires and lust...
> meet Mom and you marry.
> VWs, you date--pagan desire, lust, etc., etc. Hondas, you marry.
> In the world of leasing, who cares. 3 years and you're out; long term
> doesn't matter. That's the buyer's choice. But a long term marriage, you
> get a Honda.
Are you stupid or just retarded? For long term ownership, there's no
car other than the VW that I would rather have.
Than again, if you're like most americans, they want a bland little
slave for thier wife and thier car and then they go out and lust after the
VW/other females.
Which is why I bought a VW and have an interesting wife.
Life is too short to waste on boring cars and people.
-S
Joe Lucchio
LL&J Baker wrote:
>
> Nick Markou wrote:
>
>
> > >
> > > - when I say beats the snot out of them, I mean *in*every*way*,
> > > not just speed. Total ownership experience.
> >
> > A matter of opinion...one I can respect, but not one I agree with.
>
> Thank you. Back to ya.
> > >
> > > - You don't know what VWs and BMWs I've owned.
> >
> > Gee...let me guess what internet bullshit this will be...OK you've owned
> > an M3 (any M car will do) or an 8-series, and on the VW side,
>
> Well, now you are escalating the $$ of the discussion.
> I will grant you the M3. I am thinking of getting one.
> It is what I call a strong price-point -- a lot of car
> for reasonable bucks. I considered the GS-R to be a
> strong price-point too, but lower on the bucks scale.
>
> Ryan claims my list of cars (Beetle, Rabbit, Quantum, mod-ed
> 2002, 320, German Capri) is too old to be relevant. But I've been
> burned so bad I'm no longer willing to buy the stuff. I have better
> things to do than get to know my German mechanics (and their
> families) on a first-name basis. Have the cars (espec VWs
> since that's the thread) improved enough that I should give
> them a chance?? It's possible, I'll admit.
> >
> > >
> > > speed ? So much for "long gone".
> >
With all wheel drive, and price competitive with an M3, and with more hp
and torque (with mild boost, chip anyone?), it will be an awsome
vehicle. Just think if they put that twin-turbo six in the Passat.
Sure is nice to dream.
ThreeZee
> That would make both slower than a GTI VR6. Really, speed isn't
> everything. A 328i, is an overall superior driving maching to theGSR. Integras, >with their Civic-roots should be compared to VWs, not BMWs. You pay for what you >get.
> Ryan
Has anyone read the November 1995 issue of Car and Driver? They compare
the Integra GSR to the BMW 318ti. In the article, the GSR
"outmuscled and outhustled the BMW's trick pony. Deft handling is on
both agendas, but the Acura's bonus ponies and punchier feel nudge it
ahead of the BMW's superior package and probably its resale luster."
Overall the BMW ended up a few points behind the Acura. "Integras should
be compared to VWs, not BMWs" huh? I don't think so. The GSR beat out
the BMW by almost one second in the 1/4 mile(15.5 to 16.4) and had a
slightly better skidpad(.82 to a .81). And for you VW people out there,
the article stated that they did not use the GTI because it finished
last in its most recent comparison test (C/D, March 1995) largely
because of soft handling. And I know you may say, "But the GTI ain't da
GTI VR6." Okay fine. But then you're comparing apples to oranges. Car
and Driver compared the 318ti to the GSR because they were in the same
price range. The GTI VR6 is NOT in the GSR price range. Last time I
checked, it costed a few thousand more than the GSR. Therefore, you
should be comparing the GTI-VR6 to the Prelude VTEC or Integra Type R.
In both accounts, the Hondas beat the VR6.
-RCD
satyr
>I meant that it was gutless compared to a VR6 until AFTER 6000rpm...whre
>the GS-R begins to strut its stuff...glad you like to rev the shitout of
>your engine, but 7000rpm is not only impratctical, its useless in the
>daily commute, and seeing as the rest of us make payments on our cars
>and need them to get to work, driving around at 7000rpm is something any
>of us would rarely do....after all 99% of folks buy their cars to go to
>work, and get groceries and stuff...If you're into Honda's and like
>bragging about redlines, get into a real joymobile...one of their 13K+
>rpm motorcycles....Once again, I'll state that the GSR is the track
>star, but I'd rather do the daily grind in a VR6, or non-Vtec Honda or a
>BMW 6 cyl. any time...
You obviously aren't a Honda driver if you think 6000+ rpm is
impractical/useless in daily commuting. I use it every day, weather
permitting. I just sold my '86 Integra (7000 rpm redline) for a '94
GS-R and I apperciate the additional 1000 rpm. The GS-R is plenty
torquey compared to my previous Hondas and 6000 rpm is always only a
quick downshift away.
Maybe that is the problem. With your low rpm redlines and your balky
transmissions, you VW drivers have just forgotten the joy of shifting
gears.
satyr
>
>Wish I still had my bike. But, the VTEC engines are usually geared low
>enough that they pull reasonably well even at lower rpms (compare top
>gear roll on times to a VR6 car for example - not as different as you
>might think). Compared to a non-VTEC Honda, the VTECs have very similar
>low rpm torque curves and with tighter gearing take better advantage of
>it. The only disadvantage in my mind? More noise, but that shouldn't
>bother enthusiasts - the people who tend to purchase the DOHC VTECs
>anyways.
Noise? You mean music.
satyr
On 30 Nov 1997 23:18:55 GMT, rah...@unixg.ubc.ca (Ryan Rahim) wrote:
>That's misleading. There are "dozens of problems" with every car on the
>market. None are perfect. The current crop of VWs are nowhere close to
>the bottom of any reliability surveys. The reason this discussion keeps
J.D. Power long term survey finds them in the bottom half but won't
disclose rankings or scores for cars in the bottom half. Consumer
Reports shows the newest models to be in the bottom category along
with s lot of US mfr products. Older VWs are average to
worse-than-average, nowhere near Hondas and Toyotas. The only import
brand with a worse record is Hyundai.
>coming up where you make such a big deal about VW's reliability (when
>they are rated higher than such marques as Chrysler) is because you're
You know its pretty pathetic when you have to haul out Chrysler as a
an example of something you are better than.
>still living in the past. VWs might not be rated as highly as some
>refrigerator-appliance Japanese marques (including Honda), but they're
>trouble-free enough to not make a big deal out of this "reliability issue."
There is a big difference between Honda and VW on the reliability
issue. If you are satisfied with VW reliability, great. But the way
I see it you can get Honda reliability in a model which will compete
with anything VW offers (and many things they don't offer) so why
settle for less.