CIS and low compression...
In2hoppn
Hi all. Any old time CIS nuts still hanging around here? It's been a long
time since I gave up my bad rabbit habit... guess I was overdue for a slip
: )
Question: Should a 1.8 CIS run (at least poorly) with 55 to 60 psi
compression?
STOP HERE if you like, or read on if your curious for more details and got
time for a long read! OK, it's not THAT long... but really I just need
imput on if it should still at least be able to fire up and run with
compression this low. THANKS!
I've got this 86 Wolfsburg Cabriol(toil)et with 1.8 CIS... basically a 500
buck car (mistake?) with no spark... but after chasing electical gremlins
finally got spark but then it still won't fire up... not even a cough! OK,
I think starter is tired from the last owner cranking the snots out of it...
so it doesn't spin REAL fast but with jumper cables attached it does at
least spin "fair", but only for a short while. But with an injector pulled
and laying on the valve cover, fuel pump running via jumper, and cranking
starter I can't seem to get enough air flow to lift the fuel distributor.
However, removing boot and grabbing the air flag and lifting it (quite
lightly... smooth and easy) gives good fuel. A good dose of starting fluid
sprayed into the boot also gets no combustion. Not even a cough or sputter.
HA! I thought a no spark condition would be an easy fix but that apparently
wasn't the only problem. Compression test shows only 55 on cylinder 1, and
60 on the other 3. Adding some oil didn't help. I believe the compression
gauge is accurate. It's an oldie but goodie... I'll try it on another
vehicle tomorrow to be sure. Even if compression is really that low,
shouldn't this engine still pump enough air to make CIS work? And shouldn't
it still be able to fire up and at least run like crap?
It just occured to me while typing this... I guess I gotta get under it and
maybe unhook the exhaust (or pull the 02 sensor) to check the possibility of
excessive back pressure. But I don't think that would make low compression,
but it sure might make the starter drag down. Anyway, the boot at throttle
body, duct, and boot on fuel distributor all look fine (will remove and
check them all again tomorrow). I'm puzzled that I can't make this thing
fire up some! Or at least deliver some serious fuel. If compression gauge
proves accurate, I'll probably pull the valve cover and at least check for
some valve clearance. There's no coolant in the oil or in the cylinders.
Timing belt is old but OK, cam timing is dead on where it belongs, and rotor
in the distributor pointing at the no 1 position, the distributor is tight
and the lock down bolt looks like it hasn't been touched in 25 years. The
no spark problem was just a bad ground wire from ignition control module.
This car "supposedly" ran pretty good before that, but I'm wondering if the
spark problem was induced from someone farting around with it trying to over
come this other problem?
I wanted to put this on the road cheap for someone... it ain't lookin so
likely now... definitely don't want to put a new starter in if the engine is
junk. Maybe I'll try towing it up the road and spin her up in gear! The
frequency valve ain't buzzing, so I know I got other electrical issues to
chase down. And the plug is missing above the 3mm rich/lean adjusting screw
so I'm sure that's been messed with... and now I'm wondering if that can be
the problem. Maybe I'll set that as rich as I can (without it dumping fuel
@ no air flow!) and go from there with a "tow start" ; ). Making it run
"right" is a horse of a different color! And may not even be possible given
how hard parts are to come by these days. (can you even get a cpr now?) But
I used to do damn good with these old systems. I've revived a number of
them in the past, but this is the first time I've ever had to resort to a
compression test on one, ever. Maybe I'll see if I can get the frequency
valve working. And of course, don't know what the cold start valve (5th
injector) is doing either. But I'd prefer to chase that stuff down to make
it "run better" and "start easier" after I at least get it to run. So my
question again (if you made it this far)... should it be able to run with
55-60 psi compression?? If so, I'll keep plugging at it. Body's good,
top's good, interior's good, haven't checked front end parts yet,... would
really like to hear it run and see what the clutch and 5 speed does! It
might be a lost cause (and I don't got a 2.0 for it, nor the time to do such
a transplant) : ). Thanks all!
PeterD
<in2h...@worldpath.net> wrote:
>
>Hi all.
New plugs. Try starting. Check plugs for fuel contamination/smell.
That will tell you if you are getting fuel into the engine. If they
are clean, no fuel smell at all, then fuel problems still exist. If
they have some fuel dampness or smell, check spark.
Also try a non-contact timing light (inductive clamp on the plug wire
for a spark test if you have one.)
In2hoppn
Plugs are like new. Not getting fuel. Using Snap-on timing light.
I take it you agree it "should" run at 55 - 60 psi compression?
I don't know how "good" spark is, but the timing light does continue to show
I have spark.
I'm just ready to go have at it again (for a little while).
I'll update at some point!
"PeterD" <pet...@hipson.net> wrote in message
news:59cbe51sp0j9kjl0a...@4ax.com...
SFC
If you realy measured "only" 55psi then it must be leaking through the
valves. Normal value is between 140...180psi! Acc to vw it is due for
overhaul when it is dropped to about 105psi! You'll never get it started
with almost no compression....
First check what the cause is for that low cyl. pressure! If the oil trick
didn't make a difference then it must be bad valves or a very bad head
gasket (unlikely)
SFC
In2hoppn
I did finally get it running. Had to pull it up the street. Runs good,
too. But still won't start by starter. It's just not cranking fast enough.
The starter is just plain cooked and drawing way too much current. It's
cranking like about 1/2 speed... although my 83 will start at that speed if
battery is half dead (like after sitting all winter). So apparently it's a
combination of slow starter and hard starting from the typical fuel ratio
not ideal yet cis syndrome : ) I'm betting compression has come up after
running it and building some oil pressure, but never did check it again.
It had a coolant leak as well, so for all I know it's been cooked a bit...
maybe valve springs are weak now? I don't know, but it didn't want to idle
and I didn't dare let it run too long with the coolant leaking (hose off end
of head) so I didn't do anymore tinkering. But I did drive it around the
yard and out back and it runs smooth and strong... and I at least know now
that the clutch is good, as well as 1st, 2nd, and reverse gears... yard too
small for 3rd, 4th, and 5th : )
"SFC" <sf-ci...@hetnet.nl> wrote in message
news:4ae5ee74$0$1655$703f...@textnews.kpn.nl...
PeterD
<in2h...@worldpath.net> wrote:
>Thanks Pete!
>Plugs are like new. Not getting fuel. Using Snap-on timing light.
>I take it you agree it "should" run at 55 - 60 psi compression?
I'm not sure it will. With 80 it would, but not well, never tried
something that low. Keep in mind that it would 'fire' with low
compression but might not start/run.
>I don't know how "good" spark is, but the timing light does continue to show
>I have spark.
>I'm just ready to go have at it again (for a little while).
>I'll update at some point!
Do so, and update us.
dave AKA vwdoc1
Make sure the timing belt is correct. I have seen sooo many that were many
notches off including my 1.8t engine when I bought it. Oh and it had good
compression (150 psi) even for a low compression engine that was 4 notches
off.
Yes the engine could run but might not run at full power or might be hard to
start.
Your compression, especially with Hyd Lifters, might be low until the
lifters pump up and the engine is warm.
THEN check the spark timing.
CIS usually needs that cold start valve to spray a little fuel inside the
intake manifold to make starting easier.
Glad you got it started! ;-)
Check out the main battery cable going to the starter and the main negative
cable to the engine.
I suggest taking them off and cleaning all surfaces.
JMHO
--
later,
(One out of many daves)
"In2hoppn" <in2h...@worldpath.net> wrote in message
news:B4qdnb27NM8WvXvX...@metrocastcablevision.com...
SFC
> Your compression, especially with Hyd Lifters, might be low until the
> lifters pump up and the engine is warm.
Hmm, could you explain this one. When the lifters are drained from oil they
will not hold the valves open. Maybe after a head job when the springs were
removed....
SFC
dave AKA vwdoc1
a couple of months?
Sometimes there is a rattle/tapping as the clearance inside of the lifter
needs to be adjusted with oil or pumped up.
So it might be possible that the lifters have collasped not allowing the
valves to fully open and opening late & closing early.
Just a theory and I can not recall ever seeing this before.
NOW I have seen the reverse, where the lifters pump up too much holding the
valves open and engine loses compression. That was caused by an oil pump
that developed way too much oil pressure.
Wild thoughts I know but possible! ;-)
later,
One out of many daves
"SFC" <sf-ci...@hetnet.nl> wrote in message
news:4ae7206d$0$1651$703f...@textnews.kpn.nl...
In2hoppn
: )
As soon as I new I had spark and could get fuel out an injector by lifting
the air plate, I had pulled the timing cover and turned her over to TDC and
timing was perfect. Of course, ignition timing at the distrib may still be
off a tad but does need to be running to tune that in. And the clamping
bolt still has a TON of ancient crud on it, so no-ones monkeed foolishly
with it as a wrench had definitly not been on it.
Anyway, before finally towing it up the road with truck and chain... I did
try checking valve clearance. At first, I didn't seem to have any at all
(checking the several that were obviously on the low parts of the cam
lobes). Then, after dismantling my stubby little feeler gauges so I could
get in there better... it seemed I could fit about anything anywhere... on
up to say 0.76 everywhere. THEN I realized I was actually moving the tops
of the lifters downward, which I then found I could do quite easily with my
finger. And here I was thinking this thing had solid lifters! So that's
when I got thinking about maybe lack of oil pressure and the slow starter /
limited cranking time... I had to throw it back together with the old
gasket (that was already leaking) so the cover's coming back off anyway.
I'll try checking the compression again at that time... after it can start
and run... but still cold engine, just out of curiosity... and post the
results.
I have yet to discover what the cold start valve is doing! All I did with
that so far was look at it through the throttle body with my bore scope when
I was doing an injector flow test. Injectors spray nicely (hope dealer
still has some seals but I doubt it). Nicely balanced too. Within specs...
about "Yay" much in each of the 4 Aquafina water bottles... : ) I still
don't know why I could get it to at least fire once with starting fluid,
though. I always thought that stuff would burn with zero compression.
The frequency valve is not buzzing, the throttle cable was totally adjusted
wrong and obviously being used to jack the idle up. So I need to chase down
the electrical side there and suspect if Lambda is dead, so it cold start,
hot start pulse, warm start fade 5 yards and punt,... : )
I'm sure none of the multiple relay diagrams in Bentley quite match up... I
really think VW used to use relays as toy blocks for the kids in the waiting
area and what ever configuration they happen to leave them in was the order
for that days assembly!
But first, I'll need to replace the starter. And since I slipped leaning
over it and broke my nipple... the one that the little expansion tank hose
goes onto... I'll be needing a new radiator, too. Doesn't that just SUCK!
And while I'm in the suck department... one sloppy rod end in the front end
is the extent of trouble there. Clutch works great but the pedal is slid
over half off the pivot point and rubbing against the steering column. You
guys know, down there at the bottom of the steering column where the bottom
bearing has fallen out and is sitting on the little u-joint. All this (and
the last paragraph) just part of "the basics" for an A1. But the wheel
bearings sounded good via "chain drive" up the road : ). Brakes all sound
and feel good. No 4 ways, heater blows one speed only, switch in the OFF
position!, no wipers,... didn't try the aftermarket cd player yet... there's
an undersized wire from under that going out to the battery that I won't be
reconnecting out there... did I mention this is a Rabbit... but the battery
terminals were already nice and clean (new one on the ground side) and I got
all the extra ground wires hooked on nicely... including the one that had
dissappeared under the fuel distributor... comes from ignition module... was
the original "no spark" culprit..., who knows what the lights are doing, no
horn either, so I got plenty to do. Oh yeah, and the stupid buzzer and oil
light was going off, too! False alarm, I'm sure... as I've seen this on
about a dozen Rabbits so far. Of course, I'll pipe up my oil pressure gauge
to be sure, then bypass it. SOOOOOOO, it's sure nice to know it will run
and drive before thinking about all the rest! Hopefully I'll at least have
it starting and yard driving easily before it snows!
(VW repairs... make for interesting conversation... if you got nuthin to
positive to contribute... just flame a Honda... )
In2hoppn
"dave AKA vwdoc1" <vwdoc1...@pleasehotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hc5lkc$1t4k$1...@adenine.netfront.net...
In2hoppn
Just a brief update. Got a battery charger with a good boost for cranking
and was able to start it by the starter! Then tracked down the no frequency
valve buzz to a bad relay. It's amazing how much rust /muck you can dump
out of a relay, clean it up, and have it working fine again! That gave me
the old frequency valve buzz it needed. Then vantage meter on the cold
start valve showed that to be working. Fired her up again, and it was
pretty rough from being way to rich... had to back off the idle mixture
screw a LONG WAY and then open the idle screw up and she purrs like a
kitten and responds to throttle snap beautifully. I had set the mixture
screw up higher at an earlier time, but not by THAT much. Next is to
investigate O2 sensor (probably just pop a new one in unless it looks pretty
new) and check out the dwell on that frequency valve. But first I got to
replace the radiator... didn't dare run it any longer without coolant...
don't particularily want to end up replacing the waterpump as it has no rad
in it now. Radiator is supposed to be in today. Looking like it will be a
driver soon!!!!!!!!
In2hoppn (silly rabbit, diesels is for trucks)
"dave AKA vwdoc1" <vwdoc1...@pleasehotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hc5lkc$1t4k$1...@adenine.netfront.net...
dave AKA vwdoc1
congrats and keep us updated!
"In2hoppn" <in2h...@worldpath.net> wrote in message
news:Wvadncci6snsa3PX...@metrocastcablevision.com...
PeterD
<vwdoc1...@pleasehotmail.com> wrote:
>I can see the smile from here! lol
>
>congrats and keep us updated!
>
>"In2hoppn" <in2h...@worldpath.net> wrote in message
>news:Wvadncci6snsa3PX...@metrocastcablevision.com...
>> Hey all,
>>
>> Just a brief update. Got a battery charger with a good boost for cranking
>> and was able to start it by the starter! Then tracked down the no
>> frequency
>> valve buzz to a bad relay. It's amazing how much rust /muck you can dump
>> out of a relay, clean it up, and have it working fine again!
I don't know why VW's are prone to do this. I've lost count of the
number of relays I've opened, cleaned, burnished the contacts on, and
reassembled!
Keep us posted on how you are doing once on the road!
In2hoppn
I been running since year 2000. So getting this new one up and running plus
retrieving all my old data before clunking out the old one... left me with
no news group access until now.
"I will never buy another VW"
"I will never work on another VW"
"I hate fricken VW"
...wonder how many time I said that today... along with the colorful
language I can't seem to give up...
... but I'm finally smiling again!
Man, talk about getting wound up aggravated to the limit! Got some
injector seal in her and replaced a cracked coolant flange. Well it started
OK to drive in from out back and do that, but then it wouldn't start again!
So I pull the plugs and clean and dry them, then it starts but doesn't want
to idle. Then won't start again. Well finally get it running and idling
again, and trying to get the ignition timing set and set the idle mixture
and of course the idle speed, and how all these things can affect one
another... and just when I finally think I've got it about right and the
dwell meter is looking good but doesn't like the O2 sensor very much so I
leave it unhooked... it starts idling way down again... THEN... coolant
starts pumping out from under the cap and making a mess all over the place
because the radiator fan ain't working! So, I get's that mess all cleaned
up and then, of course, it won't fricken start again!
Soooooo, I go to my favorite parts place for a starter (25 minute drive to
get there) to discover they don't really have one there. But the store up
the highway (another 1/2 hour or so away) "has one for sure". Get there,
open the box... starter doesn't even look close... never even seen a starter
quite like it on anything. So the guy insists it's the right one (LOL)...
then suggests it's a "late model" in that year and looks at a year newer
(I'm still laughin out loud, but it ain't funny) and tell him this isn't
even a vw starter. Then I look at the number on the box (that he keeps
saying is right) and see the number on the starter is different... wrong
starter in the box. So off I go for another 1/2 hour drive to another
store. Finally... the right starter... and after enough driving... get it
home and installed... tripple square bolt heads that have been abused before
(yup, was really luvin VW again) but.............. TA DA! It's spins a lot
faster and for a lot longer! And it starts! Even without battery charger
w/boost! Yeee Haaa!
NOW... anybody got a good wiring diagram for the radiator fan in this rig?
It's 1987 Cabriolet, and it has 2 wire fan, AND 2 wire connector on the
radiator temp sensor. I had to swap the fan motor out when I changed the
radiator. Wires had been spliced previously. Currently, both leads to
radiator fan show continuity to ground so somethings wired wrong. Mitchell
is useless for this car and my Bentley and Haynes only go to 1984. Looking
at a variety of years in Mitchell shows double relays for a couple different
multi-speed fan setups... both showing 3 prong temp sensor in radiator (mine
has only 2). Another schematic shows circuit from fuse 1 to radiator temp
sensor to fan to ground... no relay involved. I know the earlier ones had a
relay for fan that was switched by the radiator sensor and would think this
has a relay like that???????
Thanks if anyone can find a schematic that makes sense for this one! Maybe
a relay panel diagram, too??
Electricals is such a pain without accurate info!
OK, now to see if my computer is really going to post this message...
"PeterD" <pet...@hipson.net> wrote in message
news:v7d0f5pkklu5vb21i...@4ax.com...
dave AKA vwdoc1
Well you have success with your posts! <g>
Now are you running Windows 7 or Vista or XP?
Does your Cabriolet have a/c?
I have seen the wiring changed so that the radiator fan gets it power almost
directly from the battery (fused) instead of through a relay. Too many
wiring diagrams to even try to remember how yours could be.
You may have to follow those wires from the radiator fan switch to find out
where they go!
I usually find wires corroded right around the battery which might affect
the fan's operation.
I find a lot of problems are usually caused by those that work on a VW
before. :-(
You might find some repair information, in English, here
http://www.volkswagen.msk.ru/
later,
One out of many daves
"In2hoppn" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:dP-dnRHs8qdK42bX...@metrocastcablevision.com...
PeterD
wrote:
I have the Bentley for the '88 cab, which IIRC is the same. I'll see
if I can scan the fan electric page for you.
I'll need an email address to send it to you, so obfuscate yours and
post it. (Don't email to my address in the forum, it's a dummy).
If you can't do that we'll figure out another way to get it to you.
In2hoppn
But don't the scammers and spammers have de-obfuscate software now?
So to totally obfuscate beyond de-obfuscation... it's me as you see me
posted here and my provider is metrocast.
Wouldn't mind the whole electrical schematic if you can, relay location if
you got it... don't need any of the troubleshoot or r&r stuff!
Thanks!
In2hoppn
for a test I decided to try to fix the clutch pedal which had slid off it's
pivot pin and was half-cocked against the steering column... and clutch was
engaging and disengaging this way. NOW, after fixing that, the clutch would
not disengage... grind gears, or lurch if try to start in gear. SOOOOOOOO,
I start adjusting the clutch cable... and adjust it some more, and some
more, and some more and finally it will shift into gear... and now, it will
not engage. WTF??? I bring the adjustment back almost to where I started
and still it's JUNK (as is this whole car, sure with I never bought it, may
just yank the starter and radiator and crush it). Can you really ruin a
clutch by possibly over lengthing the cable housing by about 6 to 8 full
turns so the the F thing will no longer engage? Maybe ended up pushing the
rod in just a little too far and now it's screwed? But it's not like the
clutch pedal stayed at the floor or suddenly went low. I did hit the
starter while in reverse and it did lurch with quite a thump. Maybe that
broke something?? This thing is JUNK I guess... I should have known
better... every little thing I've tried to do on this turd has been
insane... it will never be worth the cost of a clutch job...
"dave AKA vwdoc1" <vwdoc1...@pleasehotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hdgti8$1hm0$1...@adenine.netfront.net...
In2hoppn
Cancel the request for schematics...
I'm done with it!
I did get the cooling fan working properly! The short to ground was someone
hack job of wiring a lighted switch at the dashboard (a wire I earlier
thought was for the cd player). It was connected to an enclosed male spade
plug that is apparently there for the A/C option? Removed that and traced
it out to all being ready to go if the temp sensor actually closes when hot.
Did finally run her up to temp and it's working great. Unfortunately, in
between time I fixed the clutch pedal but then apparently wiped out the
clutch when I hit the starter while in reverse. Now she don't move at all
in any gear. Idling with clutch out I can shift into 3,4, and 5. I need to
pust the clutch in to get 1st or reverse, so it's still doing something
barely enough to turn the shaft. Clutch job is beyond what I can do here so
it's all been a waste. What sucks is the total money I spent could have put
new tires and struts in my Camry. No more dubbin for me. A lesson I
thought I learned in the past and hope it sticks this time : ).
dave AKA vwdoc1
are frustrated.
you have come sooooo far too. ;-)
clutch is doable!
Now are you sure you did not lengthen the cable too far? gotta have some
free play/slack!
heck if starting in reverse just 1 time caused the clutch to go out, then it
was going out very soon.
bottom line is.............do you want to drive this car?
"In2hoppn" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:AI2dnQ9T-cygDWHX...@metrocastcablevision.com...
In2hoppn
> are frustrated.
> you have come sooooo far too. ;-)
Actually, after a good nights sleep (good for me anyway)... I decided when I
woke up this morning that I'd get an oil pressure gauge on it and just make
sure the warning buzzer sometimes going off is actually a false alarm (seems
it always is, but this does have a stubborn clicking lifter when cold too).
THEN, I will roll it out from my work area (carport, add cold air and no
hoist to my ongoing frustrations...) and push up the hill and out back out
of the way.
> clutch is doable!
Not for me, or at least not here. My dad has a small shop so maybe at some
point down the road? I'm pretty limited in what I can do, as I have
disabling spine problems (primary frustration that does shorten my tolerance
for much of the b.s. when working on about anything) and I don't like
occupying his shop as it is only a single bay. I'd want to take it apart
1st, then get parts... I'm sure it would take at least 2 days. But maybe if
at some point I know for sure he won't be working...
> Now are you sure you did not lengthen the cable too far? gotta have some
> free play/slack!
That was my first thought when I suddenly went from not disengaging to zero
grip, but I never lost free play. It's a bit flaky at the firewall end.
The housing is loose there so free play is obvious even from under the hood.
Next, I wondered if over adjusting it caused a problem at the release
bearing end. But again, I never went beyond losing free play at the top of
the pedal.
> heck if starting in reverse just 1 time caused the clutch to go out, then
> it was going out very soon.
Back when I first got it running (towing up the road with a truck and long
chain)... the clutch was smooth and strong. I deliberately worked it hard
and it was great. Only thing was the pedal was cocked at an angle and
rubbing on the steering column (which reminds me, I gotta finish doing
something to keep that bearing from falling out again).
It was a stupid thing to do, but in hindsight I know what I did. I was
grinding 1st and reverse, so I shut it off and popped it into reverse. Then
I hit the key quickly, wanting to see if clutch was really engaged, or just
dragging enough to spin the shaft. Parking brake was on and unfortunately
holding much better than the average rabbit. I only hit the key quick, but
it make quite a huge thud, really kicked the engine against the mounts. It
told me the clutch definitely was engaged. This was the last time it got
any grip. The question now is, what's the "weakest link" (that's
WWWWWWWWWWEEkest link), because something obviously let go. Is it possible
I wiped the splines off the tranny shaft, at the clutch disc or even
something further in? Or would one assume (dangerous word, unless assuming
the worst) the teeth in the clutch disc would sheer off 1st? It's such a
backwards setup, and I've never actually had one apart. Pedal feels fine,
and there is only slight change in sound when letting clutch out. Past
experiences and general guessing can be fun here, but I don't think I'll
know without taking it apart and I'm just not in the position to do that.
Maybe I can just unbolt the tranny and slide it over for a peak. And if
it's the disc, just slip it down out, slide another one in and clamp it up.
All fixed within the hour! : ) Maybe have to adjust the lu-lu valve just
enough to keep it from overriding the trestle gear and making the
discabubulator go thunk. Drain and refill the blinker fluid. Rotate the
headlights and do a dipstick alignment. OK, all joking aside... I got an
old bumper jack around here somewhere... if I can just jack the front bumper
up enough to unbolt and change the car...
>
> bottom line is.............do you want to drive this car?
I'm not desperate to, but it would be nice to be able to. I bought it cheap
as a "no spark" car. It's not rusted, but does have some damage to the
hood. Grille's broken, but I happen to have a new one that will fit it.
Roof is excellent, interior is fair. Fixing a "no spark" car sounded right
up my ally. Well, my "no spark" car still didn't run after fixing
spark(except by towing it, and clutch worked great for starting it btw) and
has since gone into new starter, new radiator, used radiator fan, new
coolant flange, new injector seals, and it still will need at least a pair
of tires and a rod end, and now it needs a clutch? SWEEEEET. I learned a
long time ago that doing a buy/fix/sell for profit is futile so never
attempt to do that. But ideally, buy/fix/drive a little/and sell for break
even justifies the endeavor. There comes a certain satisfaction in auto
resurrection and I always know someone that ends up needing a cheap drivable
car. It's always nice when it's a win win deal and we can beat the system
we live under. If I can sell it for 600 like it sits, I'm still taking a
loss. I don't think it would even sell for that much. I'll put it on CL
and see though... maybe I'll get LUCKY! Hey, it's even Friday the 13th
today... that should help... knock on my head...
dave AKA vwdoc1
yep sounds like you have been having fun! ;-)
I always double check the free play at the cable by just pulling up on it at
the threaded part so that it lifts the release bearing lever.
I don't trust the free play at the pedal much!
No quick and easy way to change the clutch! AFAIK you will have to separate
the transmission from the engine and that usually requires you to drop the
transmission out of the vehicle.
Now of course I check all of the CV joints to make sure that they are not
broken and are still attached!
"In2hoppn" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:44OdnY3PxpHp8GDX...@metrocastcablevision.com...
In2hoppn
> I always double check the free play at the cable by just pulling up on it
> at the threaded part so that it lifts the release bearing lever.
> I don't trust the free play at the pedal much!
It's easier than getting in and out of the car 20 time (LOL), but I always
fine tune final amount of freeplay at pedal based on actual release point.
If it's too high or too low, it makes it drive awkward. I always have to
have it exactly measure out as "just feels right"!
> No quick and easy way to change the clutch! AFAIK you will have to
> separate the transmission from the engine and that usually requires you to
> drop the transmission out of the vehicle.
Yeah, but didn't my "dream" at least make it sound better? : )
> Now of course I check all of the CV joints to make sure that they are not
> broken and are still attached!
Yeah, that would be nice if I was just spinning an axle or inboard flange...
but I think that would be more than the syncs could handle, as I can shift
3rd, 4th, and 5th pretty quickly with out all that much resistance. But
there is some resistance (that pushing the clutch in eliminates), and if I
slowly add pressure the engine idle speed will slow down, until it drops
into gear. Then when in gear, the is no change in idle speed. I'm picturing
the shaft turning inside the gears and holding pressure on the syncros
putting a sideways load on it adding to the otherwise only slightest
friction there... as in clutch OK, trans not. I supposed I better get my
head under there and look at the drive flanges, but I'm quite certain it's
not spinning diff. I've been looking at exploded view in Bentley (84 4
speeds) but it's really not that clear how it all works and what would let
go the easiest... I'd say at most, the only thing turning besides the
flywheel is clutch disk, pressure plate (clutch pedal feels perfect still)
and maybe trans main shaft only?
As much as I hate the "throw away" system we have to live in, the cost to
have it fixed is more than it's worth if paying to get it done.
It's on CL for 600 in case someone locally is maybe into clutch jobs. If I
had a hoist that I could occupy for a while, I'd love to pull it apart just
to see what happened, THEN part and scrap it out if it needs more than just
a clutch. But I just don't have the means. And yeah, quite a bit of stuff
has to come apart and then drop the trans right out of it. Then, I could
see the splines on the shaft and look inside the clutch disc (still on the
engine behind/inside the flywheel). Hmmmmmmm.... wonder if I can jack it up
out back... make some tall jack stands... about 6 foot tall...! HA! If I
ever do get it apart (or know who does) I'll be sure to let you know what it
was.
dave AKA vwdoc1
"In2hoppn" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:So2dnaWuduSsM2PX...@metrocastcablevision.com...
> quotes and comments below...
>
>> No quick and easy way to change the clutch! AFAIK you will have to
>> separate the transmission from the engine and that usually requires you
>> to drop the transmission out of the vehicle.
>
> Yeah, but didn't my "dream" at least make it sound better? : )
Yeah I wish.......I think that some of the Saabs allow for a quick and easy
clutch change.
>
>> Now of course I check all of the CV joints to make sure that they are not
>> broken and are still attached!
>
> Yeah, that would be nice if I was just spinning an axle or inboard
> flange... but I think that would be more than the syncs could handle, as I
> can shift 3rd, 4th, and 5th pretty quickly with out all that much
> resistance. But there is some resistance (that pushing the clutch in
> eliminates), and if I slowly add pressure the engine idle speed will slow
> down, until it drops into gear. Then when in gear, the is no change in
> idle speed. I'm picturing the shaft turning inside the gears and holding
> pressure on the syncros putting a sideways load on it adding to the
> otherwise only slightest friction there... as in clutch OK, trans not. I
> supposed I better get my head under there and look at the drive flanges,
> but I'm quite certain it's not spinning diff. I've been looking at
> exploded view in Bentley (84 4 speeds) but it's really not that clear how
> it all works and what would let go the easiest... I'd say at most, the
> only thing turning besides the flywheel is clutch disk, pressure plate
> (clutch pedal feels perfect still) and maybe trans main shaft only?
Well I had to ask about the other components just in case! lol
If the engine is spinning, transmission is in gear, clutch is supposedly
engaged, but the car is not moving then the clutch disc and trans mainshaft
is not turning.
You might be able to see the trans mainshaft not turning through that
inspection hole at the top of the transmission.
>
> As much as I hate the "throw away" system we have to live in, the cost to
> have it fixed is more than it's worth if paying to get it done.
> It's on CL for 600 in case someone locally is maybe into clutch jobs. If
> I had a hoist that I could occupy for a while, I'd love to pull it apart
> just to see what happened, THEN part and scrap it out if it needs more
> than just a clutch. But I just don't have the means. And yeah, quite a
> bit of stuff has to come apart and then drop the trans right out of it.
> Then, I could see the splines on the shaft and look inside the clutch disc
> (still on the engine behind/inside the flywheel). Hmmmmmmm.... wonder if
> I can jack it up out back... make some tall jack stands... about 6 foot
> tall...! HA! If I ever do get it apart (or know who does) I'll be sure
> to let you know what it was.
Well good luck with the sale. At least you have the engine running properly
which should help the sale of the car for the max price! ;-)
PeterD
<vwdoc1...@pleasehotmail.com> wrote:
>quotes and comments below...
>
>"In2hoppn" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>news:So2dnaWuduSsM2PX...@metrocastcablevision.com...
>> quotes and comments below...
>>
>>> No quick and easy way to change the clutch! AFAIK you will have to
>>> separate the transmission from the engine and that usually requires you
>>> to drop the transmission out of the vehicle.
>>
>> Yeah, but didn't my "dream" at least make it sound better? : )
>
>Yeah I wish.......I think that some of the Saabs allow for a quick and easy
>clutch change.
>
>>
True, but at the price of a painful changing of things like the
alternator which is tight against the firewall...
(For those who don't know, Saab mounted the engines backwards in some
vehicles before GM bought 'em. My classic 900 is built that way. Also
the transmission is integral to the engine and forms the oil pan! )
In2hoppn
> Well I had to ask about the other components just in case! lol
Yeah, I WISH it could all be turning that easily / quietly... and I will be
looking to make sure when the rain stops...
> If the engine is spinning, transmission is in gear, clutch is supposedly
> engaged, but the car is not moving then the clutch disc and trans
> mainshaft is not turning.
Are you saying there is no way it's a problem inside the transmission??
> You might be able to see the trans mainshaft not turning through that
> inspection hole at the top of the transmission.
All I could see there is the flywheel spinning, which occupies the whole
hole (hole whole? a-hole? nevermind). I can see that the whole thing (the
whole thing that occupies the whole hole?) is turning... but... how much
space is between that and the trans housing?? I do have a bore scope!
Maybe I can give it a rectal exam (back to first set of parenthesis)...
In2hoppn
>>Yeah I wish.......I think that some of the Saabs allow for a quick and
>>easy
>>clutch change.
>
> True, but at the price of a painful changing of things like the
> alternator which is tight against the firewall...
Yeah, but the starter is an easy top side job! Well except the hood opens
in the wrong direction...
> (For those who don't know, Saab mounted the engines backwards in some
> vehicles before GM bought 'em. My classic 900 is built that way. Also
> the transmission is integral to the engine and forms the oil pan! )
Yeah, many a new owner whilst attempting to change their own oil wondered,
"why does my Saab have red oil?"!
SAAB???????? How did we get so far off topic?????????? Oh that's right...
CIS... : )
PeterD
wrote:
>
>
>>>Yeah I wish.......I think that some of the Saabs allow for a quick and
>>>easy
>>>clutch change.
>>
>> True, but at the price of a painful changing of things like the
>> alternator which is tight against the firewall...
>
>Yeah, but the starter is an easy top side job! Well except the hood opens
>in the wrong direction...
>
>> (For those who don't know, Saab mounted the engines backwards in some
>> vehicles before GM bought 'em. My classic 900 is built that way. Also
>> the transmission is integral to the engine and forms the oil pan! )
>
>Yeah, many a new owner whilst attempting to change their own oil wondered,
>"why does my Saab have red oil?"!
Then they go to add oil, "Uh, where's the oil filler on this thing?"
<bg>
>SAAB???????? How did we get so far off topic?????????? Oh that's right...
>CIS... : )
Ah, naw, my Saab is parked right next to my VW Cabbie! Two
convertibles in a row in the garage...
In2hoppn
OK, car parked out back. Out of sight, but not out of mind ; ).
I went out with the bore scope. Couldn't see much other than flywheel with
that.
This things been bugging me. I've owned cars in the past that had almost no
clutch left, clutches that grabbed terrible, chattering clutches, and while
generally not stupid with a vehicle, have really "beaten the hell" out of a
number of them... and never blown a clutch. Of all the vehicle repair I've
done for customers as well as myself, friends, and family... I've only done
2 clutch jobs I can think of, and both of those vehicles would still drive
(barely). So, I get to thinking again... how could I kill the clutch by
just hitting the starter in reverse? Or, if doing that could really break
something in the transmission it would have end up being a reverse only
problem. And here I was actually adjusting the clutch when it turned to
crap, so it must have been something to do with me somehow over adjusting
it. So I unhooked the cable at the transmission end and "POP". the lever
dropped down and clutch engaged!
So, I will insert a quote here that I now whole (hole?) heartedly agree
with:
>I always double check the free play at the cable by just pulling up on it
>at the threaded part so that it lifts the release bearing lever.
>I don't trust the free play at the pedal much!
Apparently, my whole problem to start with after getting the clutch pedal
pushed back onto the pivot pin and getting a snap ring on it was this. The
part that holds the cable housing at the pedal end had been broken. When I
took the cable out, there was a broken pipe-like piece, and an extra washer
someone had added in there in the past. Some how this hap-hazard repair
re-orientated itself into dicking with me for hours (ok, technically days
now!). Soooooooooo... HORRAY! It's fixed now! Well, not really fixed...
just working again for now! And when I start it, it idles. Radiator fan
cycles as it should. I think the temp sensor for the ecm (cold engine/80%
duty cycle) opens a bit early. But O2 sensor may also need to be replaced,
or at least run. I'm pretty sure I can advance the timing more (currently @
6 btdc via timing light). But she's very much yard drivable and there is as
of yet still no snow!
Seems I remember seeing years ago, a good write-up on the clutch / firewall
repair... I'll search. If anyone's got a recommended link or quick/easy
method...
And more for CIS! (back on topic!) My 79 has the NON-Lambda CIS. It works
perfectly. Hit the key in any weather, even after sitting for 1/2 a year,
and it instantly fires up and idles. And it will sit there and idle
smoothly until warmed up. Cold, semi cold, warm, and hot restarts are never
even the slightest issue. The idle speed may vary slightly, but this has no
idle speed contol at all. Not even the digital ones they used on later
ones. Nothing but the mechanical bypass one down behind the intake. I've
never seen ANY cis system work as nicely as this, and have always wondered
if the CIS Lambda can be un-lambda-ed?? While the Lambda systems were very
much piggybacked on later (from an electrical point of view), the fuel
distributor itself I believe is different. I imagine in order to do away
with the frequency valve would require some sort of restriction in it's
place to simulate about a 50% duty cycle? I've seen some that were just
unplugged and the mixture screw turned in further to compensate. And this
can easily be done and it not that much different of a setting. Certainly
not enough to cause it to inject fuel with engine not running! But I always
imagined that the part throttle mixture would be effected by doing this.
Any thoughts? Obviously, it's better to keep the frequency valve, even if
it's just kept @ 50% duty cycle. But if for some reason I ever had to
replace a non-lambda fuel distributor (hopefully never for my 79), I doubt
I'd find anything other than a Lambda one and of course the car doesn't have
any of the electrics for running a frequency valve.
Now, time to search out cable/firewall repair AND pull that CL post (or at
least correct it and up the price a couple hundred)!
dave AKA vwdoc1
OK glad you found the problem! ;-)
"In2hoppn" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:ZNKdnVZdTr_QrZzW...@metrocastcablevision.com...