Installing a 60,000 Volt Ignition Coil
eastward...@yahoo.com
points? And most importantly can I use the same wires and spark plugs
and what would I re-gap the spark plugs to? These are the original
style Bosch spark plugs for this '77 Fuel injected Standard Beetle
sedan.
Joey Tribiani
<eastward...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:52a910ac-8725-486d...@w24g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
the 60k *rating* of the coil is just that, a rating... it won't put out
higher spark with just changing the coil...
Jim...@msn.com
J.T. is right but,
At highway speeds you might get better performance., less drop off.
I had a Pertronix Flamethrower coil once and a Crane Cams optical drop
in ignition.
That particular Flamethrower coil required a ballast resistor be
installed to drop the voltage to 6 volts bfore reaching the coil.
On a stock coil at terminal 15 some wires branch off that go to the
choke, idle cut off valve on the carb, and to the back up lights.
the directions did not say I needed to discontinue using that coil
terminal 15 on the new Flamethrower coil to powere those
aforementioned loads and relocate to a 12 volt pwer source before the
ballast esistor.
This was before I knew about R.A.M.V.A.
Jim...@msn.com
OOOPs! I pressed the 'Tab' key and acidentally entered the post
before I was through.
Anyway, I figured that out after discovering that the back up lights
were dim for some reason, that they needed a 12 volt power source
before that ballast resistor.
This link might give you idea of what I am trying to describe.
http://www.vw-resource.com/alternator_wiring.html#rewire
Not to long after that I found this newsgroup, about 8 or 10 years
ago,
a lot of the ac vw enthusiasts were talking about how great their
new CDI was and how it worked so well with the SVDA distributor that
they got from aircooled.net.
So, I had to have one.
But then, the directions for the CDI said not to use a high output
coil like the Pertronix Flamethrower coil together with a Tiger CDI.
So off went the bright and shiny almost brand new Flamethrower coil
and the stock Bosch blue coil went back on.
There goes another 100 bucks or so just sitting on the shelf.
I suppose I saved that much Installing it myself.
The Flamethrower coil seemed to give a little faster starting.
No real performance or mpg improvements.
Stock coils are supposed to have a performance drop of a high rpms or
highway speeds.
The Hi output coils are said not to have this performance drop off.
Just my ten cents worth. Other opinions may vary. Use at your own
risk.
Jim...@msn.com
> Stock coils are supposed to have a performance drop of a high rpms or
> highway speeds.
Correction, this should read,
Stock coils are supposed to have a performance drop off at high rpms
or highway speeds.
eastward...@yahoo.com
> <eastwardbound2...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
So if this is the case, how would one get the most out of this coil
with the ballast? What special ignition wires and plugs are needed.
Do tell.
Jim...@msn.com
> So if this is the case, how would one get the most out of this coil
> with the ballast?
Do a lot of highway or race track driving.
What special ignition wires and plugs are needed.
> Do tell.
Didn't it come with instructions?
P.J.Berg
Here is a bit on Ignition and Coils cut and pasted from Dynatek's
instalation manual.:
(The referal to ECU here will equal points and condenser in a stock Vw
aircooled setup).
(Take note of the 'matching of coil to dwell time').
Basics of CDI vs. Inductive ignition
There are two commonly used types of ignition on the market today:
Capacitive Discharge, and Inductive. They have funda-
mental differences not only in how they work, but also in how they are
wired.
Inductive Ignitions are very common in factory applications.
They require fewer parts, and are cheaper to build. They work by
storing energy in the ignition coil. It draws 12V from the battery,
through the ignition coil on the primary side, and then to the ECU
(or to a power transistor) as shown in Figure 1(a). This current
builds up a magnetic field within the coil. To create the spark, the
current is stopped. This causes the magnetic field to collapse,
and creates the voltage spike on the secondary that starts the
spark. See Figure 1(b).
The coil resistance and inductance are very important on
Inductive Ignitions. The amount of time the coil is being charged
with current by the ECU is often referred to as the dwell time.
How much current is needed, and how quickly the current flow
rises is directly related to the coil resistance and inductance. In
an Inductive Ignition system, mismatching your coils to the dwell
time the ECU gives could result in either too weak of a signal to
create a spark, or too much current that could damage the ECU,
coils, or both. Also, the total amount of energy that can be
produced from the ignition is going to be a function of the dwell
time, and inductance of the coil. With a large inductance, the
dwell time will have to be very long, but you can store more total
energy. Asmall inductance allows the current and energy storage
to build very quickly, but it has much less total energy storage
capacity.
Here is a comparison between a CDI and induktive setup.:
In a Capacitive Discharge Ignition System, the coil does not
store the energy prior to firing. The capacitor stores the
energy, as shown in Figure 2(a). Then when the ECU wants
to create a spark, it triggers the capacitor to fire, and all of the
energy stored in the capacitor is delivered to the coil in a very
short, high power pulse as shown in Figure 2(b). This pulse
will be several hundreds of volts. The coil then acts as a trans-
former, and changes that pulse into several thousand volts,
enough to create the spark.
The Capacitive Discharge Ignition requires zero dwell time
for the coils, the maximum RPM is limited by how quickly the
capacitor can be recharged. This allows CD Ignitions to hold
consistent spark energy at much higher RPM than factory
inductive ignitions. It also means that CD Ignitions can work
with a much broader range of coils than stock inductive igni-
tions, since dwell time no longer is a critical parameter.
Spark Restrike
CD Ignitions provide a more powerful, but very short spark.
Inductive ignitions create a spark that lasts significantly
longer. Because of how the energy is stored in a magnetic
field within the ignition coil, any time an inductive spark is
blown out, it will try to restart the spark automatically. CD Igni-
tions deliver most of their energy so quickly that if a spark is
blown out, it will almost never have time or energy to restart
the spark.
This matters most under light load and lean air fuel
mixtures, when it may be possible for a spark to fire, but not
have any fuel in the spark gap. The ability to restrike the spark
at that point will ensure a complete combustion, and smoother
running.
This statement needs to be repeated:Multiple sparks on a
CDI are NOTfor power gains, but rather for cleaning up emis-
sions.
Most typical CD Ignitions fire the multisparks around 1
spark per millisecond. This rate is tied to the amount of time
it takes them to recharge the capacitor. While this may seem
quick at first glance, 1 millisecond is 18 degrees later at just
3000 RPM. And many CD Ignitions stop multiple sparks in the
3000-4000 RPM range, because it just takes too long to get
that second spark. With that much timing delay, multiple
sparks are clearly not for power.
The ARC-2 improves upon this by lowering the time it takes
to get that second spark, using a proprietary technique called
Intelligent Spark Profiling, or ISP.
Basicly:
A "Hot" coil on a otherwise stock ignition setup will give you no gain.
To do so you need to feed it with a higher voltage, doing so will fry your
points.
A recomended setup will be the coil you already bought + a CDI module + a
points replacement kit + rotor without resistor and decent HT leads.
Wtih this setup it will start within one full revolution, no kidding!
J.
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Bob Hoover
> A recomended setup will be the coil you already bought + a CDI module + a
> points replacement kit + rotor without resistor and decent HT leads.
> Wtih this setup it will start within one full revolution, no kidding!
So.... lemme see if I got this right. You start out with the stock
system, which provides a reliable spark up to about 5000 rpm, then
'improve' it by adding a sooper-dooper coil, a CDI module, a points-
replacement kit for triggering, a 'straight' or shunted rotor (ie, no
resister), and undefined but 'decent' spark plug leads... to get an
ignition system that is good for up to about 8000 rpm...
Am I good so far?
Because if I am, it begs the question: Is your ENGINE capable of
running at 8000rpm?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Several points not mentioned: With the stock set-up the recommended
gap needs about 12.500 volts to jump the gap. Also, with the stock
'inductive' of Kettering ignition system, you'll get your maximum
spark voltage at your lowest speed, since that's when your dwell
DURATION is at a maximum.
You need to be sure you understand the difference between dwell
duration or time vs dwell angle or degrees of rotation. The dwell
ANGLE remains fixed whereas the dwell duration varies according to
your rpm. On the stock system the dwell duration -- the amount of
TIME needed to charge to coil to deliver AT LEAST 12,500 volts runs
out at about 5,000 rpm, whereas with a CDI module the points -- ...or
whatever you've used to replace the points... is only needed to
provide a triggering signal; dwell duration is of little importance
since the capacitor(s) are charged directly form the voltage inverter
which runs continuously and typically produces 300 to 400 voltages,
which is then discharged INTO the coil's secondary winding. Stock
coil, which has a windings ratio of about 300:1, will produce a spark
GREATER THAN 12,500 all the way up to about 7,000 rpm when used with a
CDI module. Based on the claimed "60,000" volt coil it would appear
that the windings ratio is about 500:1, allowing you to produce a
spark greater than 12,500 all the way up to about 10,000 rpm.
Do you REALLY have an engine that can turn 10,000 rpm? Or even
5,000, for that matter. Because it looks to me as if you've been
jobbed by some slick-talking retailer.
-Bob Hoover
Jim...@msn.com
They indeed will add looks to your engine compartment.
Bob Hoover
On Nov 18, 10:40 am, Bob Hoover <veedu...@isp.com> wrote:
> 'inductive' of Kettering ignition system, you'll get your maximum
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The above should read "or Kettering ignition..." rather than 'of'
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> which is then discharged INTO the coil's secondary winding.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The above should read "..coil's PRIMARY winding..."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Addendum:
As a point of interest, unless suppressed, Multiple spark initiation
is a an inherent feature with CDI modules... but about 90% of the
energy is dissipated by the initial spark. (This shows up on the CRT
of the typical ignition test rig.)
-R.S.Hoover
P.J.Berg
>
>> A recomended setup will be the coil you already bought + a CDI module +
>> a
>> points replacement kit + rotor without resistor and decent HT leads.
>> Wtih this setup it will start within one full revolution, no kidding!
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> So.... lemme see if I got this right. You start out with the stock
> system, which provides a reliable spark up to about 5000 rpm, then
> 'improve' it by adding a sooper-dooper coil, a CDI module, a points-
> replacement kit for triggering, a 'straight' or shunted rotor (ie, no
> resister), and undefined but 'decent' spark plug leads... to get an
> ignition system that is good for up to about 8000 rpm...
>
> Am I good so far?
>
> Because if I am, it begs the question: Is your ENGINE capable of
> running at 8000rpm?
Are you addressing me or the original poster?
Where do you get 8000rpm from? Not mentioned by me anywhere...
The original Poster had already bought the "Sooper-dooper" coil, and I
were merely pointing out to him the fact that the new coil on its own
would not "Improve" anything.
Then I went on to describe the combination of components I have used with
great success on my own:
points replacement,CDI,rotor without resistor and non-stock HT-leads.
As pr. above the "60.000" volt coil was the original posters main topic
since he already had purchased such a item.
Again, are you addressing me or the original poster?
I have no problem with the above.
I have not mentioned 10.000 rpm anywhere.
The term "60,000 volt coil" was used by the original poster to describe
his new coil.
P.J.Berg
> But those Pertronix chrome Flamethrower coils sure look cool!
>
> They indeed will add looks to your engine compartment.
You must ask the original poster what colour and make his new coil were..
J.
>
>> Do you REALLY have an engine that can turn 10,000 rpm? Or even
>> 5,000, for that matter. Because it looks to me as if you've been
>> jobbed by some slick-talking retailer.
>>
>> -Bob Hoover
>
--
Bob Hoover
>
>
> Are you addressing me or the original poster?
> Where do you get 8000rpm from? Not mentioned by me anywhere...
Dear PJ,
Cut me some slack, eh? I don't read this Group everyday and a message
sent to it may take a day or two to arrive, which can put it out of
sync with responses from others, although I think your msg was already
posted.
Some of the figures cited are for the CDI modules that used to be
available from Universal Corporation, of which I installed at least a
hundred with excellent results.and only one 'crib-death,' which the
lady at Universal replaced without question.
Universal also offered an anti-collision strobe for light airplanes
which brought them into competition with Whelen. So Whelen bought
them out... and shut them down. No more low-cost CDI modules.
-Bob Hoover
P.J.Berg
No worries.
I used the Tiger 581 one myself, I think on your recommendation even.
I bought it from John Connolly at aircooled.net.
The homepage for Universal Corp still exists, I shot them an e-mail, but
no reply.
http://www.universal-co.com/index.aspx
Is there anyway to determine whetter they still are in business or not?
Jim...@msn.com
a stock ignition.
Get some use out of it or sell it on e-Bay.
Get a Mallory CDI or other ignition from aircooled.net.
Do without going out to eat for a while and save up for a stock Bosch
blue coil if that is what is best for the new points replacement
ignition that you decide on.
E-mail them. They will help you pick one best for your needs.
Parts that I ended up putting on the shelf that I was not satisfied
with:
* chrome Pertronix Flamethrower hi voltage ignition coil
* Gene Berg 1.5 quart oil sump
(not needed for a stock engine. It causes slower warm ups in cold
weather.
Definately not good for the short trips that I make.)
* CB Performance Maxi II oil filter pump.
(this acts like an oil heater due to the hot air coming out from
underneath the T- 1 engine. It could lead to overheating.)
* Empi cheese grater stock tail pipe dress up accessory.
(.. it rusts the ends of the tail pipes.)
* stock air cleaner with rectangular paper element
( I already had a stock 'oil bath' aircleaner in really good
condition.
The oil bath air cleaner works the best.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On Nov 18, 5:35 pm, "P.J.Berg" <BergR...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Jim...@msn.com
>
> Get a Mallory CDI or other ignition from aircooled.net.
>
> Do without going out to eat for a while and save up for a stock Bosch
> blue coil if that is what is best for the new points replacement
> ignition that you decide on.
>
> E-mail them. They will help you pick one best for your needs.
Correction. it should read,
E-mail aircooled.net , they will help you pick one best for your
needs.
> Parts that I ended up putting on the shelf that I was not satisfied
> with:
>
> * chrome Pertronix Flamethrower hi voltage ignition coil
>
> * Gene Berg 1.5 quart oil sump
> (not needed for a stock engine. It causes slower warm ups in cold
> weather.
> Definately not good for the short trips that I make.)
>
> * CB Performance Maxi II oil filter pump.
> (this acts like an oil heater due to the hot air coming out from
> underneath the T- 1 engine. It could lead to overheating.)
>
> * Empi cheese grater stock tail pipe dress up accessory.
> (.. it rusts the ends of the tail pipes.)
>
> * stock air cleaner with rectangular paper element
> ( I already had a stock 'oil bath' aircleaner in really good
> condition.
> The oil bath air cleaner works the best.)
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> On Nov 18, 5:35 pm, "P.J.Berg" <BergR...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:58:47 +0100, <Jim3...@msn.com> wrote:
> > > But those Pertronix chrome Flamethrower coils sure look cool!
>
> > > They indeed will add looks to your engine compartment.
>
> > You must ask the original poster what colour and make his new coil were..- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jim...@msn.com
Other stuff to check:
* check for loose nuts and bolts.
* check for oil leaks at least once a week.
-once I noticed that the oil pump cover nuts were loose and the
loose cover was the cause of dripping oil.
Fortunatly for me I had caught it in time. I tightened those nuts
close to specs and saved the price of a new engine.
But there was still an oil leak.
This time it turned out to be a loose oil cooler.
other:
Replace your main oil seal that is next to the flywheel every 5
years or so .
If you do not drive it every day the main seal can dry out and cause
a ridge on the flywheel. That ridge will wear out the main seal and
cause an oil leak.
The fix for that is to replace the flywheel and the main seal.
Just my 2 dimes worth!
eastward...@yahoo.com
Thank you for everyone's replies. Today I received the coil in the
main and I mailed it right back to JC Whitney for a refund.
Jim...@msn.com
note: stay away from SoCal. they add on to the shipping charges after
what they say the price will be.
For tech help:
http://www.vw-resource.com/
ac vw electrical advice, Speedy Jim
http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/
John Henry's site
http://thebugshop.org/
http://www.geneberg.com/
(..mostly race car tips)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~