How Long Will It Last?
Veeduber
<<I'm just wondering how many miles I'll gain by hassling with the
thermostat... >>
--------------------------------------------------
Steve (and the Newsgroup),
I don't know.
Based on engines I've worked on, those WITH a proper cooling system last from
4x to 12x longer than engines on which the cooling system has been removed or
disabled.
The most significant factor appears to be the number of cold starts and warm-up
cycles, followed by how the cooling system has been modified. Downstream from
there you start running into details of engine assembly, those 'unimportant'
details you never read about in the magazines :-) Lots of shlock mechanics
don't install the little air-dams on the underside of after-market heads,
others don't install the gasket bracket on the dog-house oil-cooler and some
don't even use the proper blower. (One of the VW magazines did a 'technical'
article on how to install a dog-house cooler in which they made no mention of
the gasket bracket and went so far as to say the proper size blower was
optional.) And of course there are those ever-so-kewl 'power pulleys' :-)
FYI: Failure to install the gasket bracket on the dog-house oil cooler causes
most of the cooling air to blow AROUND the cooler's core rather than through
it, assuming you've used the dog-house size blower to begin with :-) Leaving
the air-dams off the underside of the heads causes a catastrophic drop in
cooling-air PRESSURE, insuring the area around the exhaust valves will run way
too hot.
But all of that only involves the engine. By the time you crank in low tire
pressure (or inappropriate tires), draggy brakes, an oily clutch and
ten-year-old tranny lube the wiser course is often to simply praise the kid's
paint job, tell him you're too busy with other work and point him toward
another shop, one that has signed-off on the Conventional Wisdoms the kid has
obviously embraced.
Personally, I've a hunch most of the kids know they are driving a piece of
junk. What they seem unwilling to admit is that they've been practiced upon,
that 'their' mechanic has been sticking it to them; that all those quick&easy
'technical' articles aren't worth the paper they're printed on. That hunch is
borne out by the tenure of Volkswagen ownership among youngsters, not only from
the Department of Motor Vehicles but on this Newsgroup as well: Once they
realize they've been sold a bill of goods they sell their bug or bus to the
next eager sucker, buy themselves a Toyota and get on with their lives.
-Bob Hoover
John Willis
I believe I remember reading something you wrote once...it went
something like this: "...the devil is in the details." It is easy to
make an internal combustion engine run. The trick is to strike a
balance between economy, performance, and reliability. In my opinion
the VW designers performed this feat with a bone stock 1600 d/p
engine. When everything is in place, clean, and performing within
specification, this seems to srtike the best balance between these
variables. True there are other considerations, picky restorationists
(I'm one of them) will go with the even more obsolete options original
to a particular car (the '59 in the driveway comes to mind),
performance folks will never be happy with the modest power and
acceleration available with a stock set-up, and it could never be said
that a stock engine is kewl.
All that said, I guess that is why there are apples and oranges. Some
people are convinced thermostats burn up engines and other are equally
convinced they help them run better and longer. The only true teacher
is experience :~)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Willis
jdwi...@airmail.net
Ralph Lindenfeld
--
Sincerely,
Ralph Lindenfeld
Ralph Lindenfeld Photography
Phone: (505) 262-2793
Pager: (505) 790-8499
Email: Ralph.C.Li...@alum.dartmouth.org
http://www.unm.edu/~slindenf/ralph
Aussiebug
Hi LA,
I think you may have missed the point.
Your VW (and mine too) have stood the test of time with just one owner
(I bought mine on 5 Jan 71).
But is your's still going with all it's cooling system intack, or with
half the cooling system removed???
Bob's point was that you'll NEVER get the longevity you'd expect from a
VW engine if you don't have a good working set of cooling flaps, a good
working thermostat to move them, the air dams between the cylinders,
the correctly fitted seals around the doghouse cooler, and so on.
The VW engine NEEDS all this stuff to get the cooling right - it
doesn't have a water jacket with it's high heat intertia and oversized
radiator like most water cooled cars have.
Or to put it another way - Bob might well be asking whether anyone
would remove the fan and thermostat from their water cooled car, and
maybe stick a Ford Pinto radiator in their F100, and still expect to
get a good life from the engine.
Nice to hear you've stayed faithful to your VW all these years.
--
Rob
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/lane/1970
1970 1500 beetle, one owner, 248,000 miles on it's original engine
Being restored after "wearing" a Ford on 1 April 1999.
In article <38B2ED11...@ll.mit.edu>,
sp...@me.not wrote:
>
>
> Veeduber wrote: That hunch is
>
> > borne out by the tenure of Volkswagen ownership among youngsters,
not only from
> > the Department of Motor Vehicles but on this Newsgroup as well:
Once they
> > realize they've been sold a bill of goods they sell their bug or
bus to the
> > next eager sucker, buy themselves a Toyota and get on with their
lives.
> >
> > -Bob Hoover
>
> Hey the handed-down VW Bug I drove the day I got my license 20 years
ago is still
> with me looking and running better than ever - despite the fact I
watched the odo
> roll to 00000.0 on December 24, 1980...even the 1981 student parking
decal for the
> high school I attended is still affixed (although somewhat faded) to
the back-side
> of the rearview mirror - and the car will soon approach its second
rollover to
> 00000.0.
>
> That VW was the cheapest and simplest form of transportation
available in its day -
> a good reason why I drove a VW all those years...and still do. That
car was cheaper
> that spending $5k for a new1980 Ford Pinto.
>
> Not bad for a car that has seen many a New England winter (and
amazingly still a
> very solid and dependable car)...
>
> LA
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
PEPPE
two tone paint job on the road !!!
PEPPE
Ralph Lindenfeld ha scritto:
The Jones Family
As it has been mentioned before, could I have a detailed explanation of
what the doghouse cooler gasket bracket looks like, or failing that
point me to a good graphic/pic/reference.
Bob in El Paso
Veeduber
>what the doghouse cooler gasket bracket looks like, or failing that
>point me to a good graphic/pic/reference.
>Bob in El Paso
>
Dear El Paso Bob,
The proper name for the thing is a 'gasket frame' or somesuch title. It is an
L-shaped stamping that bolts to the two thru-bolts holding the cooler core to
the adapter, the leg of the L extending around the blower-side of the core, to
which a gasket is glued. The important part is the nut-plate included on the
bracket. That's what secures the floppy metal 'wing' that slides down over the
cooler core. At high rpm there is enough air pressure from the blower to push
the wing out of position. Instead of flowing thru the oil cooler, the air
blows under it, due to the lack of the gasket, or around it, due to the wing
not being secured. Very subtle problem since the wing is always in position
when the engine is NOT RUNNING... yet your newly installed dog-house oil cooler
installation can result in higher oil temperatures... simply because the cooler
isn't being allowed to do its job.
Since the bracket wasn't introduced until 1971 it only appears in a couple of
illustrations in commonly available manuals. One such is Illus 5.6 on page 3-5
of the Haynes manual for bugs & ghias (Haynes publication #159). I'm afraid I
can't recall the others. This is pretty old news, covered several years ago on
the Type 2 mailing list.
If you will do a gopher search of the Internet using 'Bob Hoover' and 'sermons'
as your seeds you should discover an article by Mr. Dale Mueller (sp?) who
provided not only an illustration of the bracket but explains how to build one
if you can't find it at a local junky. (Hint: Look in the barrel of oil
coolers. Most junkies pull the adapter, cooler core and bracket as a unit,
toss it all into the aluminum scrap pile.)
This problem came up a couple of years ago after one of the magazines ran a
'how-to' article supposedly showing how to retrofit the dog-house oil cooler to
early engines. Unfortunately, by failing to mention the bracket and by telling
people the wider blower was optional(!), many people who followed the article's
instructions ended up with some very serious cooling problems. Since I don't
subscribe to the magazines I had no idea what was going on until a fellow in
Florida sent me a xerox via snailmail. But once he installed the bracket and
the proper fan his oil temps dropped back into the normal range.
Some folks refer to the bracket as the 'Hoover Bit' and you may find a couple
of threads on VW-specific mailing lists under that tag. But it really isn't
mine :-)
IF you wanna blame it on someone, VW put it on and DB&HVW left it off. All I
did was point out that a dog-house installation needs it.
-Bob Hoover
Shad Laws
had of course taken out all the stuff that "it runs fine without." I had
installed an oil temperature guage, but I wasn't very knowledgable of the
engine at the time. Someone told me that 250F was where you should start
worrying. So, I considered my usual city street driving temp of 220F pretty
good...But I do remember the first time I took off the fan shroud. Curious,
I looked at how it worked. And, it seemed quite odd to me that nothing was
sealing the oil cooler doghouse. I didn't know about the special bracket
and stuff, but I did know this didn't seem right. I had some foam and some
contact cement lying around, and glued a strip or two around the doghouse to
"seal" it. Oil temperatures dropped, surprise surprise... Much better...
or at least until the poor rebuild by the PO caught up to me and made the
thing run at 235F normally anyway... but hey, it was a good excuse to go to
a Type IV :-)
Shad
Veeduber <veed...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000223111429...@ng-co1.aol.com...
William Claspy
http://www.i405.com/VW/stand/tin_HooverBit03.jpg
and see the rest of that page for lots and lots more pix of the cooling system and
engine in general.
Bill
Andrew W.
<<SNIP>>
>Some folks refer to the bracket as the 'Hoover Bit' and you may find a couple
>of threads on VW-specific mailing lists under that tag. But it really isn't
>mine :-)
Try to tell a mech/parts yard what you're looking for! Had to resort
to something like "that rusty L shaped thing that goes under the oil
cooler." I haven't been too successful at hoarding these (three
engines, only two of the brackets). When I have found them they were
rusty and needed to be welded up at the thin portion. I've found a
couple that had that part broken off. I did read the article on
making your own at some point, I believe it was made from aluminum and
it looked very nice provided you have the tooling to make it.
Just thought it was worth noting, and I *do* call it the "Hoover Bit"
;-)
Andrew W.
astr...@dork.com - "Dude"
http://home.cwru.edu/~agw4/
'67 Kombi / '62 Std. / '67 Westy
"It's no problem." ** Georgia
Mechanic, stargazer, wanderer.
P.J. BERG
tell me where to post it.
J.
--
P.J.Berg
Ph.# +47 22594552
Fax. # +47 22569587
Mob. # +47 98681318
Berg...@Aircooled.net
What do you mean you can't hear what I think?
Web Based : Berg...@Everyday.com
MSN/Net Meeting : Berg...@Hotmail.com
"Veeduber" <veed...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000223111429...@ng-co1.aol.com...
> Some folks refer to the bracket as the 'Hoover Bit' and you may find a
couple
> of threads on VW-specific mailing lists under that tag. But it really
isn't
> mine :-)
Veeduber
Bit" and got two hits, one with several photos of the part.
-Bob Hoover
Jan Andersson
>
> I think I found a drawing showing the part, I can scan it if someone could
> tell me where to post it.
>
> J.
My web site.
Let me know if you need a corner there.
Jan
Larry
Ralph Lindenfeld wrote:
> so how did you keep that bug rust free in all those New England winters?
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Ralph Lindenfeld
By keeping up with all the little things that need fixing over the years
before they turned into big things. The car was heavily rust-proofed shortly
after bringing it home from Gateway Volkswagen in Nashua, NH back in 1972.
The car was and still is garage kept, and right now it is in the same garage
bay it was driven into back in March of 1972. I painted the insides of the
hubcaps in 1977 after seeing a neighbor's Squareback rot through the hubcaps
- and the originals are still new-looking to this day, the inside of the
floor was painted in 1977 (around the time Elvis died) to prevent rust,
again in 1982 and once again in 1985. The car was washed underneath as well
as on top frequently and motor oil was squirted into hard-to-reach areas -
and I remember pouring oil into the center tunnel while the car was on a
slope and let it all drain out into a basin at one of the small holes on
each end. Small rust areas were attended to - either by spot-blasting the
spots down and painting them to cutting some small areas out and welding in
new steel where needed (rear 1/4 area before rear fenders begin and around
the battery - this was in 1985). It is on its third set of running boards,
disassembled, painted, rust-proofed then rubber reassembled and installed to
extend the life of them. Rust-proofing was poured into each heater channel
and allowed to drain out, heat exchanger flaps lubricated every 6 months,
and countless other things done to that car over the years I cannot
remember. Fender dents (backing into a pole) in 1974, the passenger door
dent in 1980, the rear bumper body skirt under deck lid in 1981 (hitting a
tree stump while backing up in the woods) were damaged and repaired, and
numerous dings and dents (shopping carts, stuff falling on it in the garage
etc) throughout were repaired correctly as needed over the years.
I can probably bet that I have the only VW in the city that has all 8
original brake adjuster wheels lubricated and working. Most VWs in the 70s
and 80s had frozen adjusters due to neglect and rust. Almost every gallon of
gasoline that was burned through that car has been accounted for and there
are boxes of old gas receipts dating back to the days of 35 cent a gallon
gasoline where $3-$3.50 filled the tank. More money has been spent on gas
being burned through that car than anything else - including the purchase
price - and every license plate that had been attached to that car (now on
its 7th pair) I have kept - the 1972, 73 (decals used 74),75 (decal
used76-78),79 (decals used 79-87),87(decal used 88-98) and the 99
(antique-decal 00).
Heat exchangers are still original, intact and working very well (date code
of 10/71 proves they are original). It has gone through its share of
steering dampers (struts once - it is a SB), tires, brake shoes, points,
caps, rotors, plugs, generator brushes, hoses etc - front seats were
re-upholstered due to wear, and just recently, the entire brake system was
rebuilt - and all 4 original wheel cylinders got replaced, every line and
hose as well....oh yes - forgot the fresh paint (done right by removal of
parts ex. windows - no tape) job it received in 1985.
The car provided years of dependable transportation, and nowadays it doesn't
see winter duty, it still is a very solid and strong three season driver.No
the car is not for sale - it is not worn out yet...
Larry
Alvin NG Boon Kim
Smurfette's pushrod tubes are leaking too. What happened to your
engine?
On mine, the tubes for the 3 & 4 intake are wet. Should I replace the
seals ASAP? Do I have to drop the engine to do it? Any chance I can do
it with engine in place?
Alvin.
L-A wrote:
>
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> My cooling system is intact, the original heat exchangers are still on and
> functioning well. I had to rebuild the engine at 171,000 due to PUSHROD
> TUBE LEAKAGE, not engine failure in fact the honing marks were still
> visible on the cylinder walls (I installed a new piston/jug kit anyway).
> The crank was perfect - a set of new std bearings not even having to clean
> the crank was all that was needed - endplay is/was as tight as a drum - no
> adjustment needed as it is/was on the money. That engine gave good service
> - no need to modify it.
>
> I retained all the cooling flap assembly and reinstalled them when the
> engine was put back together.
>
> 3/10/72 was the purchase date of my VW - Dad bought it - been driving it
> myself since 1980 - and Dad still drives it on occasion.
>
> LA
Eric and Allison
unless you get the spring loaded, or double nutted tubes. most are
junk, but i believe John C. has good spring loaded ones.
Eric
59 bug
John Connolly
sell some expandable pushrods (which don't leak) that allow you to do it in
place. Keyword search for "pushrod", "aluminum", or "tube".
--
John Connolly
Aircooled.Net Inc.
Alvin NG Boon Kim <alv...@worldwidewerkz.com> wrote in message
news:38B7C053...@worldwidewerkz.com...
--
John
http://www.aircooled.net is open!
While you capitalists are purging my email and spamming me, don't
forget to include these people:
Fraud Watch: frau...@psinet.com Federal Trade Commission:
ACCC: swee...@accc.gov.au u...@ftc.gov
Oh, and while you're at it, here's a taste of your own medicine!
admin@loopback $LOGIN@localhost $LOGNAME@localhost $USER@localhost
$USER@$HOST -h1024@localhost ro...@mailloop.com
Nachi11744
>sell some expandable pushrods (which don't leak) that allow you to do it in
>place. Keyword search for "pushrod", "aluminum", or "tube".
>
>
>--
>John Connolly
Alvin,
You can use these tubes on your engine, I used them to cure oil leaks from the
seals on my car and for 3000 miles now there have been no leaks with ambient
temps varying from 20F to 85F.
Nachi