safari window truth To Thom Fitzpatrick
Steve Phillips
To Whom It May Concern:
I just recently received this message on my email from a concerned customer.
The letter is from Thom Fitzpatrick. He received this letter and forwarded
it to me. The email reads and I quote:
MESSAGE BELOW IS FROM THOM FITZPATRICK
“I have seen some messages posted on the newsgroup about safari Windows.
Everyone names a whole different bunch of companies. In reality, only a few
places actually make there safaris. Izzy’s out of the bay area and Wolfgang.
Actually, I was NOT happy with the Wolfgang Safaris, and after a few
attempts to get new ones, I was unsucsseful. Within 6 months of the
installation of said safaris, one of the frames cracked, and both “powder
coated” frames are rusted. Talked to Steve himself a couple times on the
phone, and they never had any in stock when I tried to call in the so-called
warranty. Bet if I’d called in and asked to order some, it woulda been a
different story…
The latches are a joke – they take cheap repop vent wing latches and cut the
backs off and drill two holes in them. I have not seen two identical latches
from these guys. They gave me another set of latches at one of the shows
when I asked, but I had to dig through a whole box of them to find a good
set.
The windows themselves were poorly jigged when built, causing one of them to
bind against the mount when closing. I can take pix and post them if anyone
wants to see for themselves…
The powder coating is poor as well, very thin and almost non-existant in
places. Bad enough that they started to rust after the first rain.
On the other hand, Izzy’s window duplicate the factory design, and use
factory style latches. The quality is much higher, and the quality is
consistent from unit to unit.
Wolfgang’s quality sucks, plain and simple. The only reason they have sold
so many safaris is because they were the only game in town. I was either
their shit safaris or try and find originals. Or go without.
I intend to pick up two sets of Izzy’s next time I see him; one for the ’56
and one for the ’55 (scored on original set of barndoor safaris for the ’54
already)
Wolfgang also tried to get $150.00 each for used reduction boxes, no
warranty, condition unknown.
Oh, and what brock also didn’t mention is Wolfgang pays him for promoting
their stuff, which is why you’ll see spam in your mailbox from him from time
to time.
I’m not a mercenary, I just call ‘em as I see ‘em. I love my buses and have
spent a lot of hard-earned cash to fix them up. I don’t have any patience
for second rate parts.
And yes, safaris do leak, either NOS VW or cheap repro. But they don’t have
to rust and fall apart.
-Thom
’54 RHD 23-window deluxe
’55 euro flip-hatch westfalia
’56 sunroof kombi
’77 911 wide-body targa”
My Reply:
Now that was nice. Let me say that there are three companies’ that I am
aware of that make safari windows: Bus Boys, Izzy and us Wolfgang
International. We at Wolfgang out sell the other two companies by a huge
margin. We all sell them for approximately the same price and we have a hard
time keeping them in stock. We are usually two weeks behind. All warranties
take precedent over orders. Also if a customer is paying with a credit card
we do not charge that card until the product is shipped. If our windows are
that bad; Thom, why do we have such a backlog of orders?
With receipt of this letter I looked up your sales history. I found it hard
to believe we hadn’t taken care of you. The only thing I could find is a
trans adapter mount bought on 12/29/98. I show no records back to 1995 on
your purchase of the windows from us. Plus, when you ordered the mount you
did not mention anything about this window problem. Thom, if you had talked
to me (Steve) in the past about our stock of windows, I told you the truth.
We probably were out. Would you rather I lie and make you wait with your
windows out? If you had a set of windows from us, all you had to say was
that you need a set warranted and we would gladly set a set aside for you.
We would then call you and make the exchange. This policy still stands. Let
me know when you bought them and we will gladly take care of you. Our
reputation is very important to us and we take care of all our customers on
all the products we make, long after most companies in this industry would.
The tale of the jigs. Let me explain without writing a book, how we make
these windows. Yes we mass-produce these; a run is usually 40 to 50 sets. We
buy hardened steel, because we feel it flexes less than mild steel. This
steel is bent into a “C” channel. It is then put in a jig that bends the
corners with stops to insure all bends on all the frames are the same. After
that they are stacked in a cut off jig that insures the frames hold shape
and all are cut the same. Once cut the joining tabs are spot welded on to
the frame and then drilled and joined together. The frames are put into a
spot welding jig where the tabs and hinge are held in place and spot welded
on. After all tabs are welded on, the frames are separated and deburred.
They then go out to a powder coater. The powder coatng is done out of house
by a company who guarantees the powder coating for a year. We feel this is
the best way to go to keep rust from occurring. Once we get them back we
press the glass into the frame with another jig. The slides are riveted on
and packed up with the hardware and boxed. Now, all jigs are made so if a
frame doesn’t fit it is thrown away. If a set makes it all the way through
and something is still wrong we set them aside and sell them as seconds far
below cost. We inform all customers that they are seconds with no warranty
and that is why we are selling them so cheap. Seconds are really no longer
an issue as we haven’t had a set in two years. We, in the course of the last
five years, have sold 12 sets of seconds. It takes three weeks to do a run
from start to finish. Do the math. That’s a lot of windows. So, yes it is
true we are usually running behind.
The latch story. Yes, it is true we take vent latches and modify them to
work on our windows. It is also true they are not as strong as the factory
latch. We are addressing this problem in two ways. One we replace any broken
latches for free. Two we are now working on a stronger post that will be
stronger than the factory latch. We have to say however, that most latches
are broken from excessive tension caused by improper alignment during
installation. There are many factors that need to be dealt with as you
install any Safari window. When done properly, proper tension on the latch
and rubber seal will be achieved. That is why our instructions are detailed
and complete. “Winging” it leads to leaks and excessive tension on rubber
and latches.
As far as the factory frame. If you cut a factory frame apart you will find
a double wall frame. A “C” channel in the middle and a pointed “C” channel
on the outside. To my knowledge no one has ever duplicated this frame. It is
easy enough to build a pointed single wall frame, but we feel this will
eliminate the press fit on the glass we like. We have looked into
reproducing the factory frame and have plans to have them at the end of this
year. This in turn will raise the price of the new style kits.
The only game in town. As I have stated earlier, there are 3 companies that
make safaris. Again we all sell them for approximately the same amount. If
we didn’t build a good product why would we out sell the other 2? I will not
badmouth the competition. The market will dictate who has the best product
and service.
Reduction boxes. Yes we get $150.00 a side for reduction boxes (axles,
housing, and gears). We don’t have very many to sell. It is hard to find a
set that is not ruined in some way. We would not send out any used part
unless we felt we would run it ourselves. I’m sorry you don’t like the
price. I’m sure you can get them cheaper at a junkyard, and I hope you can
find them. I can’t sell them any cheaper. By the time I pay an employee to
tear apart enough reduction boxes that pass my inspection, the price becomes
realistic. Again I’m sorry that you didn’t like the price. If you have the
time, go the junkyard route.
On the subject of Brock. He is the person who does our website. We have paid
him to get our website up for us. He also has a bus and has bought a lot of
parts from us. We have in no way paid him to promote our products. What he
does is his own business. I feel that if you ask any of our thousands of
customers around the world how they feel about us, you will find they feel
we sell a quality part for a fair price, not to mention the free advice we
give. In a resent in house survey, 70% of our phone calls were advice with
out pushing our parts or selling anything. Maybe that’s why people promote
us.
I, Steve Phillips am very well known in this industry. I am not VW God. I do
not have all the answers. I do make mistakes. I do however pride myself in
telling the truth. I give advice on my experience and let the customers come
to their own conclusions. I treat every customer like I would like to be
treated should I be on the other end of the line. I will take care of any
product that we make. It’s simple: If you don’t like the part for any reason
send it back. We will give you a refund.
In closing: Thom, if you would like us to warranty your windows we will. I
will personally set aside a set for you. I would however like to know when
you bought them, as again I have no record of it. If you would like a refund
I will write you a check as soon as I get the windows and a receipt of when
and whom you bought them from. Did you buy them in 1994? Please don’t get
the wrong impression; I’m not bending the rules for you. This is company
policy. I do welcome your criticism, as with out it we wouldn’t strive to be
the best. Also, if you see a better way to build a product and to sell it
for less, by all rights do it. After all that is what this great country is
built on.
Steve Phillips
Wolfgang International
www.wolfgangint.com
Thom Fitzpatrick
: FROM STEVE PHILLIPS, WOLFGANG INTERNATIONAL
: To Whom It May Concern:
I bought them new from BusFarmers about a year and half ago.
He had some deal or another worked where he bought a bunch
of sets and re-sold them to various people in the area.
After calling a couple times and you guys were out of stock,
I figured I'd guessed the game and gave up. My initital
phone call was probably within 4-6 months of the purchase. I'd
left my number at least twice, and asked for and spoke
to you personally the first time I called. If you go to
the top and get nowhere, where else can you go?
I paid a local VW shop to install them - he'd installed lots of sets.
As far as Brock, he has *repeatedly* spammed the newsgroups
and mailing lists, both with stuff about his own site and
about *Wolfgang* and how great they are. He ended up being
banned from the bus lists. That's pretty bad. I even
mentioned his spamming to you one time at a show, Kelley Park,
I believe. The other annoying thing about his posts is
he pretends to have no affiliation, with a tone like he just
stumbled upon this stuff and is amazed and in wonder
at it all.
I have no real beef with Wolfgang itself, or you Steve; I just
wasn't happy with the safaris. From the results of my followup
on the issue, it looked like I was going nowhere fast,
and just chalked it up to experience.
Just like I would never buy BugPack stuff ever again, and
I don't buy starters or generaters from Kragen/Chief/PepBoys.
As the quality of the VW aftermarket parts continues to deteriorate,
as it will as manufactures realize they can still make the extra
buck and cut costs, I find myself more often either seeking out
NOS parts, or cleaning up good used original stuff. Even WCM
seems to be cheapening up the quality of some of their
stuff, like the bus door bumpers I recently bought which
were nothing more than lumps of molded plastic, with
threads cast into the mold to go into the door.
On the adapter; the thing worked great, did exactly what
it was supposed to do. No complaints there.
And from what I've seen, BusBoys safaris suck, too. But what
little bits I know about the two companies histories, it's some
of the same people.
As far as any returns, I'm kinda screwed since it's the rainy
season. I guess I could go back to solid windows for the winter.
If you wish, and as I offered to the NG, I can take pix of the
offending portions and post them to back up my claim of poor
quality.
It's ironic how all of the sudden the customer-servic
ethic is manifest when I post this to the 'net. You had my
phone number, but never availed yourself of it when
new windows came in. If the appropriate follow-up had been done
at the time, my post would have been more positive,
and yours could have been less damage-control oriented.
Why am I such a pisser when it comes to VW parts? I spend a *lot*
of hard-earned cash on my cars, and hate having to buy things
twice when they fail prematurely, or have to re-engineer
over-the counter parts to get them to work.
-Thom
'54 RHD 23-window deluxe ($20k invested)
'55 euro flip-hatch westfalia ($3k invested - mostly new, OTC parts)
'56 sunroof kombi ($7k invested, mostly new, OTC parts)
'77 911 wide-body targa (don't even ask...)
http://www.vintagebus.com
Kyle
>FROM STEVE PHILLIPS, WOLFGANG INTERNATIONAL
>To Whom It May Concern:
>
>
>It is then put in a jig that bends the corners with stops to insure all
bends on
>all the frames are the same
(More snippage)
Your jig is tweaked, then. My passenger side safari has a perfectly
consistent gap all of the way around except at the top of the center pillar
where there is a quarter inch gap to the seal. and a half inch gap to the
pillar. The drivers side is consistent all the way around. They lay flat and
do not leak, as long as I stuff that four inch long gap. The pressed in
glass isn't such a great thing. The rubber was squirting out in the corners
when I got them, and has been getting worse since. Little loose loops of
rubber in the corners, how attractive. They have been rusting at the joins
since the first time I washed it after installing them. I live in Arizona.
Bought from RMMW in 97. Wolfgang Int'l logo on the glass, those I assume
would not be Bus Boys?
>The latch story.
Yes, I've gotten free latches, only because I needed them in the first
place. Go without latches until I run across you guys at shows, too. Got
tired of it, made my own post and base out of solid steel. Turned down a
piece of 1/2" rod stock on the drill press with a file until it was a snug
fit in the handle. Plug welded it to a base I made out of flat stock with a
hacksaw and grinder. Drilled the mounting holes, filed a groove 3/4 of the
way around the shaft for the roll pin and put it together. It you don't
drill out the post for the push button latch, they aren't weak. Just stick
the button in the handle for show. If I was going to break into a bus, it
wouldn't be through the safari's.
Kyle
59 single cab
67 Westfailure
John Connolly
problems. Other shops/stores should take note.
I am not endorsing Wolfgang, but this says something.
John
--
While you capitalists are purging my email and spamming me, don't
forget to include these people:
Fraud Watch: frau...@psinet.com Federal Trade Commission:
ACCC: swee...@accc.gov.au u...@ftc.gov
Oh, and while you're at it, here's a taste of your own medicine!
admin@loopback $LOGIN@localhost $LOGNAME@localhost $USER@localhost
$USER@$HOST -h1024@localhost ro...@mailloop.com
Sterlng007
great that a retailer has enough concern to try to resolve an issue and make
everyone happy. I won't be putting safaris in my single cab though. It is just
to darn cold here in the midwest in winter and my single cab doesn't get that
hot inside anyway.
Ron
66 single cab (undergoing full restoration)
73 beetle (being customized eventually)
: ___
: / i__ I_________ /_o_\
: ( _/ \______/ \_I I
: O O /\
Thom Fitzpatrick
: I don't know one thing about Wolfgang, but THIS is how you deal with customer
: problems. Other shops/stores should take note.
But what does it say? Don't do anything for a year and a half,
until the disgruntled customer (even seen a gruntled one? neither
have I) posts something to a NG. *Then* you do something?
What about all the people who are computer-challenged, who
don't either the opportunity to post about problems or read
about other problems? This kinda stuff sure as hell isn't going
to make it into the VW rags!
Thom Fitzpatrick
th...@vintagebus.com - http://www.vintagebus.com
John Connolly
I don't know he hasn't responded for a year and a half, I only know he responded.
Understand OUR point of view here! You are lucky to be dealing with an outfit that
doesn't tell you to stick it, there ARE plenty of them out there.
I never said Wolfgang's Co' was great, I addressed their attention and concern to
your problem. Your post here was the first I saw of it, and they attended it
decently, and rather quickly (my perspective).
Understand that RAMVA readers have no idea whether it may be YOU that is an
asshole, or wants something for nothing, or just likes to stir things up. I'm not
saying this is the case, but you need to know perspective. From where I sit, they
did OK so far.
Keep us posted on how it works out, I'm sure others (as I am ) are interested in
the final outcome.
John
Thom Fitzpatrick wrote:
--
rib...@geocities.com
> I don't know he hasn't responded for a year and a half, I only know he
> responded. Understand OUR point of view here!
In Thom's defense, I've seen him post about this problem a few times in
the past. He's been very straight forward & vocal about it.
Veeduber
In responding to Thom, John Connolly (con...@sisna.com) said...
>Understand OUR point of view here!
Dear John,
Unless you have a mouse in your pocket I suggest you make it clear you are
speaking only for yourself.
I have not expressed a point of view in this matter but if I should, I'm
capable of doing so without your help.
-Bob Hoover