Hot tanking a bug engine case?
Trevor Bartlett
Question for those in the know:
Is it a good idea to clean a magnesium alloy case by hot tanking? I have
only heard of people cold tanking their cases, but I can't find someone to
do that around here (Ottawa). I spoke to a couple local shops, but no one
knew what the outcome would be. One guy said, "Well, I did a set of mag
wheels once and they turned out okay." This did not exactly instill
confidence.
Thanx in advance.....
b-man
--
Professor Wilson was a man to trust,
his life-long motto was "Work or bust."
Then one day he had a heart attack,
and all Wilson's money, can't buy Wilson back. D. Wilcox
Jeffry Johnston
: Is it a good idea to clean a magnesium alloy case by hot tanking? I have
: only heard of people cold tanking their cases...
: b-man
The only problem I've ever had was with the Aluminum plugs, I've had them
etch a little. If you leave it in there long enough I suppose they would
disappear. :-)
Alvin Johnston <--Libertarian
Mark K. Janello
: Question for those in the know:
: Is it a good idea to clean a magnesium alloy case by hot tanking? I have
: only heard of people cold tanking their cases, but I can't find someone to
: do that around here (Ottawa). I spoke to a couple local shops, but no one
: knew what the outcome would be. One guy said, "Well, I did a set of mag
: wheels once and they turned out okay." This did not exactly instill
: confidence.
Tom Wilson's book "How to Rebuild Your Volkswagen Air-Cooled Engine"
says don't do it, the chemicals will weaken the case and it will even
start to dissolve if you leave it in there long enough. Use hot water
and a phosphate soap solution. Don't use carb cleaner either.
The book, by the way, is excellent, lots of pictures and details.
Mark
mjan...@umich.edu
'62 Kombi
Joshua Van Tol
mjan...@umich.edu (Mark K. Janello) wrote:
> Trevor Bartlett (bv...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
>
> : Question for those in the know:
>
> : Is it a good idea to clean a magnesium alloy case by hot tanking? I have
> : only heard of people cold tanking their cases, but I can't find someone to
> : do that around here (Ottawa). I spoke to a couple local shops, but no one
> : knew what the outcome would be. One guy said, "Well, I did a set of mag
> : wheels once and they turned out okay." This did not exactly instill
> : confidence.
>
> Tom Wilson's book "How to Rebuild Your Volkswagen Air-Cooled Engine"
> says don't do it, the chemicals will weaken the case and it will even
> start to dissolve if you leave it in there long enough. Use hot water
> and a phosphate soap solution. Don't use carb cleaner either.
Why not? Carb cleaner won't hurt aluminum. It's used to clean aluminum
carbs after all.
>
> The book, by the way, is excellent, lots of pictures and details.
>
> Mark
> mjan...@umich.edu
> '62 Kombi
--
Joshua Van Tol - jjva...@cc.memphis.edu
Douglas
>Question for those in the know:
>Is it a good idea to clean a magnesium alloy case by hot tanking? I have
>only heard of people cold tanking their cases, but I can't find someone to
>do that around here (Ottawa). I spoke to a couple local shops, but no one
>knew what the outcome would be. One guy said, "Well, I did a set of mag
>wheels once and they turned out okay." This did not exactly instill
>confidence.
>Thanx in advance.....
>b-man
DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!
DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!
DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!
The caustic in the hot tank will disolve the case.
Douglas
Respectfully,
Douglas
http://galaxymall.com/shops/douglas.html
Mark K. Janello
: In article <4qt0k9$1...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
: mjan...@umich.edu (Mark K. Janello) wrote:
: > Tom Wilson's book "How to Rebuild Your Volkswagen Air-Cooled Engine"
: > says don't do it, the chemicals will weaken the case and it will even
: > start to dissolve if you leave it in there long enough. Use hot water
: > and a phosphate soap solution. Don't use carb cleaner either.
: Why not? Carb cleaner won't hurt aluminum. It's used to clean aluminum
: carbs after all.
: >
Cases on Type I engines are a magnesium alloy. Carb cleaner is fine for
aluminum parts like heads or Type IV cases (used on 72 and on buses).
Wilson also says "cold tanking" is fine for aluminum parts. Hot tanking
is only used on steel parts like crankshafts.
Mark
Jeffry Johnston
: says don't do it, the chemicals will weaken the case and it will even
: start to dissolve if you leave it in there long enough. Use hot water
: and a phosphate soap solution. Don't use carb cleaner either.
What exactly does Wilson say these unknown chemicals do? The carburetor
cleaner that Wilson is talking about, is it the industial stuff or is it
the "spray laquer thinner" kind in a can? And what does it do that's so
bad to the case exactly?
This thread is really getting silly, stories about stuff happening without
actually specifying the chemicals, temperature or time involved. I find
it kind of fun to read but, as for it being real information, it falls
into the BS catagory.
A basic solution (lye and water) will react with and ruin the aluminum
heads and aluminum plugs, but leave the magnesium case uneffected if
allowed to be in the "lye vat" just long enough to soften and or loosen
the baked on grease. Some VW engine cases are aluminum. I don't know
what they are called, I'll guess type 4 cases.
An acid solution will react with and ruin a magnesium case and at the same
time not effect the aluminum plugs or the grease. Anybody that can truely
clearify some of this, I for one, would like to know more about it.
There are other solutions being used for cleaning but I haven't worked
with them.
Alvin Johnston <--Libertarian
Bill Crick
the gear off of it. I still remember the lecture that we got. It
started out "Gentlemen. Observe the almighty Volkswagon. The soak tank
ate the gear off of the camshaft!!!!". The rest of the talk was somewhat
derogatory.
Bill Crick
76 Type II/IV/VII
Ottawa Canada
|#1| Wildfire
>A fellow in high school soaked a VW camshaft overnight. It ate most of
>the gear off of it. I still remember the lecture that we got. It
>started out "Gentlemen. Observe the almighty Volkswagon. The soak tank
>ate the gear off of the camshaft!!!!". The rest of the talk was somewhat
>derogatory.
I highly doubt a cold tank would eat a steel gear, of any grade, off of a
camshaft. A cold tank is what? Kerosine? It won't hurt anything unless it's
something caustic. Hot tanking tends to etch steel, don't expect softer metals
to withstand that treatment.
Sean
Joshua Van Tol
In article <0.31D9C105.|#1|.wild...@albany.net>, wild...@albany.net
Camshaft gears aren't steel. They are aluminum or something.
Bill Crick
|#1| Wildfire wrote:
>
> >A fellow in high school soaked a VW camshaft overnight. It ate most of
> >the gear off of it. I still remember the lecture that we got. It
> >started out "Gentlemen. Observe the almighty Volkswagon. The soak tank
> >ate the gear off of the camshaft!!!!". The rest of the talk was somewhat
> >derogatory.
>
> I highly doubt a cold tank would eat a steel gear, of any grade, off of a
> camshaft. A cold tank is what? Kerosine? It won't hurt anything unless it's
> something caustic. Hot tanking tends to etch steel, don't expect softer metals
> to withstand that treatment.
>
> Sean
is looking at the remains of the gear. It wasn't steel. It was some sort
of alloy?
Bill Crick
Jeffry Johnston
: >A fellow in high school soaked a VW camshaft overnight. It ate most of
: >the gear off of it.
: I highly doubt a cold tank would eat a steel gear, of any grade, off of a
: camshaft. A cold tank is what? Kerosine? It won't hurt anything unless
: it's something caustic.
: Hot tanking tends to etch steel, don't expect softer metals
: to withstand that treatment.
This thread is hilarious! :-) Kinda like VW alchemy!
Just how dirty was that camshaft, that it needed to be soaked over night?
Our cold tank had trichloroethylene in it and then was changed over to
kerosene never worked worth a dang after that.
Softer metals? Like gold for instance?
I've been hoping that someone that actually knew something would clear
this mess up.
Oh well, until that happens this is my chance to throw out somemore BS.
They had a hot tank (don't know the actual temperature, but it was hot)
at work, but I don't beleive it was for removing grease, I don't know
what it was for, but it was charged with sodium nitrite and other
chemicals I can't recall. I believe it would etch the steel slightly.
Our "hot tank" that I used was charged with lye and at 180F-200F wouldn't
touch the cast iron or steel or brass at all, even over a weekend, it
would remove most kinds of paint in minutes and ALL of the grease in hours.
Once upon a time, a Honda motorcycle gas tank was left in for a week and a
half and most of the paint still needed to be sanded off.
(dumb idea, what ever coating was on the inside was also removed)
Is the gear on a stock VW camshaft magnesium? It looks like magnesium and
it's light like magnesium, I never have needed to soak one in my home made
lye vat. Only after engine degreaser or Spray 'n Wash won't clean it up
good enough, do I go to the trouble to make a solution of Red Devil Lye
and mess with all that. So far only the outside of the engine cases are
ever this baked on, the transmission cases that I've done cleaned up fine
without lye. When I do use the lye vat, the case is already washed with
engine degreaser, if for no other reason just to look it over good. Then
if I soak it in lye, it is removed every hour or even half hour to see how
the grease is loosening and to keep an eye on them danged pressed in
aluminum plugs, they can get hot enough to sizzle. :-)
OK, I just ran out and poured some HCl (swiming pool acid) on an old case
and an old cam gear and they reacted the same (like vinegar and baking
soda) and both were the prettiest silver color after being rinsed off.
The cam gear may be a different alloy mix than the case, but my guess is
that it's a magnesium alloy gear. I suspect that a hot tank that has an
oxidizer like sodium nitrite in it would play hell with a VW cam gear or
case. My new version of advice is: If you insist on cleaning your case
this way ask the operater of the "hot tank" or "lye vat" what it will do
to magnesium, if s/he don't know then test it with a piece of an old case.
Alvin Johnston <--Libertarian
Douglas
wild...@albany.net (|"#1"|) (Wildfire) wrote:
>>A fellow in high school soaked a VW camshaft overnight. It ate most of
>>the gear off of it. I still remember the lecture that we got. It
>>started out "Gentlemen. Observe the almighty Volkswagon. The soak tank
>>ate the gear off of the camshaft!!!!". The rest of the talk was somewhat
>>derogatory.
> I highly doubt a cold tank would eat a steel gear, of any grade, off of a
>camshaft. A cold tank is what? Kerosine? It won't hurt anything unless it's
>something caustic. Hot tanking tends to etch steel, don't expect softer metals
>to withstand that treatment.
> Sean
Hello Sean.
A hot tank is nothing more then heated caustic soda.
The gear on a VW cam is aluminum.
The two don't mix.
Douglas
Respectfully,
Douglas
'61,'68,'69, & '78 T2, '67 & '70 T1, '70 & '73 T3
|#1| Wildfire
>Camshaft gears aren't steel. They are aluminum or something.
Since when? OK then, define "or something" if not steel. Perhaps brass,
but I distinctly remember the camshaft gear being steel. None of the internal
parts on any VW i've worked on were aluminum. Brass, steel, iron, alloy heads
and cases, but none of the gears were aluminum.
Sean
Melissa Kepner
wild...@albany.net (|"#1"|) (Wildfire) wrote:
Well, you're half right. There are actually two "cam gears" in every
VW engine: one is pressed on the crank and one is riveted to the cam.
The one on the crank is steel, the one on the cam is a light alloy of
either Mg or Al, I don't know which. The distributor drive gear (the
one also pressed on the crank) is brass.
Since the chemistry of Al and Mg are similar, I doubt we could tell
the difference by the way they react to most chemicals.
BTW, the pistons are Al, the pushrods are Al (with steel ends) and the
bearings are Al/Fe/Mg/Sn/?. The oil pump body is Al, but that may not
be internal enough for you.
Jim
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Melissa Kepner Jim Adney
mgke...@facstaff.wisc.edu jim....@mpcug.com
Laura Kepner-Adney
Madison, Wisconsin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Lee Robertson
36hp cam gears were Mag later are Al
> mgke...@facstaff.wisc.edu (Melissa Kepner) wrote in article
<4rkcie$24...@news.doit.wisc.edu>...
Joshua Van Tol
In article <0.31DB34EB.|#1|.wild...@albany.net>, wild...@albany.net
(|"#1"|) (Wildfire) wrote:
> >Camshaft gears aren't steel. They are aluminum or something.
>
> Since when? OK then, define "or something" if not steel. Perhaps brass,
> but I distinctly remember the camshaft gear being steel. None of the internal
> parts on any VW i've worked on were aluminum. Brass, steel, iron, alloy heads
> and cases, but none of the gears were aluminum.
>
> Sean
They are either aluminum or magnesium alloy. I'm talking about the big
gear on the end of the cam, not the little one on the crank. It doesn't
rust, and it's colored like aluminum or magnesium. Therefore it must be
aluminum or magnesium.
-- Joshua Van Tol
jjva...@cc.memphis.edu