swing axle nuts - Guru advice appreciated.

[ChrisKlinger]

Here's a new one for me; if anyone can tell me WTF, I'd be most
appreciative.

Did the brakes on the Ghia. Replaced rear grease seals, Torqued rear axle
nuts to >215 ft. lbs. Checked and tightened link pins; some slop, planned
rebush for soon.

All's great. Had a little rumble in right rear, figured I'd be changing
bearing soon, but I digress...

Took my son camping. On the road, car began getting squirrely. Whenever I'd
let off the throttle, the sumbitch would attempt an automatic lane change.
Great adrenaline rush, but my kid was with me. Assumed front end...

Got German king and link pins and bushings (and a sweet complete set of
adjustable reamers, in super condition, on EBay, for 80 bucks but, again, I
digress.)

One kingpin simply impossible to press out, but it's still faily tight.
Replaced one kingpin and bushings, and all linkpins and bushings.

Shimmy continues. So, I check the back...

BOTH axle nuts loose. LOOSE loose. Turn 'em by hand loose! Jeez! I could
grab the tire and wobble everything on the splines.

I (re)-torqued them today. That was the problem. Car handles great (or as
great as can be expected of a lowered kiddie-hack with the snubbers sawed
off and the front beam swing arm bearings shot and the adjuster adjusted as
frickin HIGH as it can go yet still the tires and fenders are missing pieces
from where they chose to brutally attack each other... but again, this
digression ;)

Guys, as some of you know, I'm a (licensed and experienced) aircraft
mechanic, and have owned aircooled VW's over 30 years, so I'm no noob. But I
have never had an axle nut show up loose. (of course, I must admit, in the
past I used the hammer-on-special-VW-tool-#halfbaked, and this time I used
an actual socket and a breaker bar and my weight positioned at the correct
calculated point, plus enough to line up the cotter pin)

Can anyone tell me what the hell I did wrong? Are the axles working their
way out?

Thanks guys. And happy easter to all believers.

Chris

59/60 Type I - 6V 36HP and no gas gage
65 Ghia - 1835cc dual Weber 48-IDA, suspension highly modified by someone
who evidently hates VWs.

I don't have attention deficit disorder. As a matter of fact LOOK! A
butterfly!

[tricky]

Hi Chris

I'm no guru, but you might try new axle nuts.
I have found when things wont stay tight, new ones will.

I have a feeling that some of the specs call for new nuts each time they
are removed ?

Richard

[AllanW]

On Sunday, 31 March 2013 17:17:15 UTC+13, ChrisKlinger wrote:
> Here's a new one for me; if anyone can tell me WTF, I'd be most
>
> appreciative.
>

Snapping Arse!

Stuff like that is a bit worrying!

I don't see why they'd come loose, unless something was assembled wrong, and something wore/compressed with the driving??? Clearly the nut hasn't come loose (unless it is stripped and jusmped a thread or two).

I guess keep a close eye on it!

Allan

[ChrisKlinger]

Snapping Arse indeed!

No stripped threads. And, unless I was on the day of original assembly
somehow abducted by aliens and turned into an idiot, there's not a whole lot
that can be put together wrong (though I've seen the o-rings in the wrong
place).

I will indeed keep a close eye on it. Hopefully that close eye will not, at
some point, involve watching an axle and wheel pass me on the road.

Thanks Allan

Chris

[AllanW]

On Monday, 1 April 2013 14:05:55 UTC+13, ChrisKlinger wrote:
Hopefully that close eye will not, at
>
> some point, involve watching an axle and wheel pass me on the road.
>

You can take some comfort in the fact that your barke drum would be with it, making for a particularly exciting day :-D

I hope it stays right for you!

Allan.

[ChrisKlinger]

Hadn't thought of that. But, hey, between an e-brake on one wheel and the
other half of the rear end dragging the ground, sounds like more fun than an
E-Ticket ride at Disney (Though I'm probably showing age; they haven't used
those in years ;)

On a funny note, as a teen I had a Bradley GT kit car on a '60 chassis, 10"
wide rims in the back. Had just argued with the GF, but she bolted right
rear wheel on while I bolted the left.

Left, with her, my brother, and 2 friends (remember being 17 and fitting 5
people into a 2-seater?). About 1-1/2 miles from home, the car suddenly
shook, then swerved, then dropped, leaving a 30' gash in a lady's front
lawn, while we watched a wayward right rear wheel continue to head down
Granada Blvd., stopping about a block farther down.

Ah, the days!

Chris

[AllanW]

>
>
>
> Hadn't thought of that. But, hey, between an e-brake on one wheel and the
>
> other half of the rear end dragging the ground, sounds like more fun than an
>
> E-Ticket ride at Disney (Though I'm probably showing age; they haven't used
>
> those in years ;)
>
>
>
> On a funny note, as a teen I had a Bradley GT kit car on a '60 chassis, 10"
>
> wide rims in the back. Had just argued with the GF, but she bolted right
>
> rear wheel on while I bolted the left.
>
>
>
> Left, with her, my brother, and 2 friends (remember being 17 and fitting 5
>
> people into a 2-seater?). About 1-1/2 miles from home, the car suddenly
>
> shook, then swerved, then dropped, leaving a 30' gash in a lady's front
>
> lawn, while we watched a wayward right rear wheel continue to head down
>
> Granada Blvd., stopping about a block farther down.
>
>
>
> Ah, the days!
>
>
>
> Chris

HAHA! That could have ended a lot worse! At least you're experienced with losing wheels :-)

We once had 10 of us in my Sisters old Mini (the old ones, not the new!)

[alv...@example.com]

tricky <tri...@handmadedotf9dot.codot.uk> wrote:
> I'm no guru, but you might try new axle nuts.
> I have found when things wont stay tight, new ones will.

> Richard



Yep, I know what you mean I had trouble like that maintaining nuts
and bolts on railroad switch points. He might need new ones if the
theads feel loose or look "dulled" down any.

But. I -believe- it's just a matter of getting the nuts tighter than
he got 'em. :) That's all. BTSeenT

I was told in early '75 that...

"get 'em as tight as you can, then tighten 'em just a little bit more ;)"

Never had a problem with old junky crap that we'd sometimes use. :)

What I did was to get a stick of the larger-size of bed-frame and
drilled two holes that matched-up with two holes on the drum and
used it as a home-made "second hand" tool long before I ever saw a
picture of one for sale.

...then use a -real- wrench, not a sissy 1/2" breaker bar and socket
(that's got way to much spring in it to tighten anything big).

I used a 1+7/6" (~36mm) combination wrench and a big enough piece of
EMT, after being hammered kinda flat, so it'd fit over the open end
of the combimation wrench. Really clunky but it worked great! ;)

Later, at the swap meet just happened to find two cut-off boxed-ends
(cut from combination wrenches I guess) one was 1+7/16" (~36mm) and
the other was 1+13/16" (~46mm) so always wondered if they weren't
modified for VW axle nut use. LOL :)

The thing is... it's -light- work! ...if you've got the right tools.

Alvin in AZ retired RR signalape

[ChrisKlinger]

Hi Richard

I torqued mine with a 3/4" drive socket, breaker bar, and a 4' pipe on the
breaker, a 12" extension to clear the fender, and a jack stand under the
extension to keep it lined up. Stood on it about 3' out, @165 lbs should
have made 345ft/lbs. Bounced more to align cotter pins.

When I checked, after noting that they were loose, I got another full turn
on 'em, using the same procedure.

Just can't see what could have compressed or stretched after torquing that
tight. Threads are OK. And it was BOTH axles!

I've never heard of new nuts being recommended.

I plan to check 'em again soon, make sure everything's staying tight.

Thanks

Chris

[alv...@example.com]

> Stood on it about 3' out,...
> Chris

A measly 3 feet? LOL :)

I'm telling you that simply ain't enough, ok? :)

BTSeenT, no kidding, 3 feet is not enough.

6 feet is more like it. :)

And not-springy like a breaker bar and socket neither.
And the drum and axle needs to be solid too with a long
lever attached.

Yeah, I know. ;)

"we did it this time and that time and the other time
and it worked fine"

...and one time it didn't work fine for Chris, see?

Any motion at all on those splines is bad for 'em.

Alvin in AZ
AKA: Butthead in AZ
AKA: Soon to be bear shit in AZ (on rec.guns)
(told 'em my bear story LOL :)

[KWW]

On 4/28/2013 2:17 AM, alv...@Example.com wrote:
>> Stood on it about 3' out,...
>> Chris
>
> A measly 3 feet? LOL :)
>
> I'm telling you that simply ain't enough, ok? :)
>
> BTSeenT, no kidding, 3 feet is not enough.
>
> 6 feet is more like it. :)
>
> And not-springy like a breaker bar and socket neither.
> And the drum and axle needs to be solid too with a long
> lever attached.
>
> Yeah, I know. ;)
>
> "we did it this time and that time and the other time
> and it worked fine"
>

> ....and one time it didn't work fine for Chris, see?

>
> Any motion at all on those splines is bad for 'em.
>
> Alvin in AZ
> AKA: Butthead in AZ
> AKA: Soon to be bear shit in AZ (on rec.guns)
> (told 'em my bear story LOL :)
>

But the whole point of Ft-lbs of torque is the force that is applied,
and actually at 3 ft it should have been 495 ft lbs without bouncing if
he actually measured 3 ft out. Granted, to avoid loss of pressure due
to binding and the like the pivot point should have been supported on a
surface directly level with the axle height but at least in theory it
should have been right unless something was not totally together and
falsely indicated that it was tight enough. At least in theory. Been
doing it that way for years.... Maybe he has been losing weight and
didn't realize it. ;)

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

[tricky]

Is there not a split pin (cotta?) that stops it coming loose ?

[alv...@example.com]

Am I remembering it right?
Did VW say 345ft-lbs?
Am I thinking of the flywheel's gland nut? LOL :)

> On 28/04/13 11:19, KWW wrote:
>> But the whole point of Ft-lbs of torque is the force that is
>> applied, and actually at 3 ft it should have been 495 ft lbs
>> without bouncing if he actually measured 3 ft out.

x2 and couldn't agree more. :)

>> ...at least in theory it should have been right...

And might have been too ...but that's what VW's wants with new parts
and everything else when everything's "just right".

It "should" work. ;)

"in theory, theory and practice are the same, in practice they aren't"
-somebody's sig file on a newsgroup from the mid 90's :)

"get it as tight as you can, then tighten it a little bit more :)"
-Gary Sandve SPRR mechanic and dune buggy -nut!-

It worked for me and like I said, seen VW's ~345ft-lbs not work. :/

No kidding.

Tighten it like you mean business and quit fartin' around. LOL :)

Ok? :)

-------------------------------

OP, so, the nut's right where it's "supposed" to be and the wheel
won't fall-off but your splines are stripped nekid. Measure out
~345ft-lbs if you want to because VW said to, it's not a safety
issue. ;)

How much power you got?
About stock?
More?

tricky <tri...@handmadedotf9dot.codot.uk> wrote:
> Is there not a split pin (cotta?) that stops it coming loose ?

Yeah there's supposed to be a large "cotter pin" keeping the nut
from falling all the way off. But that's all it's for. :)

The nut's supposed to keep itself and everything else tight.

BTDT on railroad switch points and switch machines. :)

I'm a retired dumb railroader. :)

Retired Signalape so...
Ex-ex-spurt ditch digger with pick, shovel and digging bar. xD

Was also a signal maintainer so...
"I forgot more about pouring water than you'll ever know! :/"

^^That's my only real brag I got. xD

---------------------

One thing I fiNgured out about switch point nuts and bolts was that
washers and split ring "lock" washers etc made the situation -worse-!

I took everything off the bolt I could get away with taking off.
Then double nutted it with a -real- wrench then put in the cotter
pin. xD Before that I was replacing them about every six months and
after that they'd last the life of the switch points, about nine
years on the main line near Bowie AZ. :)


Company issued a jillion 16" and up "Cresent" wrenches and they are
crap. Cheater pipe don't help either. Guys would get the nut as
tight as they could with their 18" Cresent/Diamond/Proto adjustable
wrench then I'd tighten it a whole bunch more with a double boxed
end wrench without a cheater pipe on it -simply- because my wrenchs'
jaws weren't springing open. Don't believe me, test it for yourself. :)

Still got my favorite wrench a Cornwell offset boxed-end 1+1/8" on
one end and 1+1/4" on the other. It's an odd-ball that way. :)
Only used up to 1+3/4" on switch points etc.

Breaker bars and sockets (even 3/4" ones) are springy suckers! :/

I believe that's the real problem, the OP never really got what he
thought did.

Alvin in AZ
ps- Double nut your balls out there...
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/file12/doublenut.jpg

[John]

Who was it that said "give me a big enough lever and I,ll move the world"?.

"tricky" wrote in message
news:N9KdnQkNU7ZjM-DM...@brightview.co.uk...

[Bill Leary]

"John" wrote in message
news:wY2dndkxa4SIReDM...@westnet.com.au...

>
> Who was it that said "give me a big enough lever and I,ll move the
> world"?.

Close. But a lever isn't any good without a fulcrum. Or, put another way,
without a fulcrum a lever isn't a lever.

One translation of the quote goes like this:

"Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall
move the world."
- Archimedes

I've seen others. For example "...and a fulcrum to rest it on..."

- Bill

[dcor...@delnorte.k12.ca.us]

> That is why I love my Kymco Torquemeister. I set it at 30 lbs.-ft, and know that I am getting 270 at the business end. I even cobbled up a 46mm for the "Big Nut" bus transaxles.
I've heard that the cheaper versions of the Torquemeister have had some breakage problems, but I can neither confirm, nor deny, that.
Now I need to donate a 1-5/8 inch socket, and cobble up another one for the Berg flywheel gland nut.
>
>