Correct spark plugs for a 73 Super ?
FerrisL
Hello,
I installed 4 new Bosch w8ac spark plugs in my 73 beetle.
Now it hesitates and bucks until warmed up, and the performance is down. My
mechanic who installed the engine had put in Beru plugs that were alot longer
than the bosch units.
Obviously either the 3 shops that recommended the w8ac were wrong or my
mechanic was wrong (but his plugs worked).
Is there something odd going on ? What are the absolute proper bosch plugs ? I
think I may simply get the same Beru ones and be done with it.
Ferris
1973 Super Beetle (restored to stock)
con...@sisna.com
Ferris,
the W8AC is THE correct plug for your car! Do NOT, under ANY
circumstances, put those bastard plugs back in, even new ones.
I am sure your hesitation is due to a different electrode location in the
combustion chamber. Secondly, your carb is probably tuned for those old
plugs. *which is wrong for the NEW plugs!)
After you install the correct plugs (do NOT use platinum, or you will be
sorry), reset the timing, and adjust the carb (it will need it).
John
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Jeffry Johnston
: I am sure your hesitation is due to a different electrode location in the
: combustion chamber. Secondly, your carb is probably tuned for those old
: plugs. *which is wrong for the NEW plugs!)
: After you install the correct plugs (do NOT use platinum, or you will be
: sorry), reset the timing, and adjust the carb (it will need it).
: John
Whoa! What tha heck? Was the carb richer for the wrong plugs or what?
Alvin Johnston <--Libertarian
con...@sisna.com
In article <659g0c$c...@nntp02.primenet.com>,
Consider this Jeffrey, whoever installed those spark plugs probably
adjusted the carb too; draw your own conclusions as to what to recommend
or do! :)
Dave Hall
Hi all,
There are some heads around with more metal around the valve-seats and
deeper spark-plug holes to reduce the chance of them cracking. They use
longer
reach plugs. Your mechanic *might* be right, but don't guess; you may have
to do a bit of crude measurement with a hooked wire to see how deep the
holes are.
Dave.
--
Da...@spam.me.nothallvw.clara.co.uk
Please delete "spam.me.not" when replying!
Check out the VW Type 3 & 4 Club website
at http://home.clara.net/hallvw/
for great pics, news and technical advice.
FerrisL wrote in message <19971123055...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
JUSA14
>: After you install the correct plugs (do NOT use platinum, or you will be
>: sorry), reset the timing, and adjust the carb (it will need it).
>: John
Why do you say not to use platinums?
juan
74 bug
John Minyard Saichuk
con...@sisna.com wrote:
: In article <659g0c$c...@nntp02.primenet.com>,
: Jeffry Johnston <jef...@primenet.com> wrote:
: >
: > : I am sure your hesitation is due to a different electrode location in the
: > : combustion chamber. Secondly, your carb is probably tuned for those old
: > : plugs. *which is wrong for the NEW plugs!)
: >
: > : sorry), reset the timing, and adjust the carb (it will need it).
: > : John
: > Whoa! What tha heck? Was the carb richer for the wrong plugs or what?
: >
: > Alvin Johnston <--Libertarian
: Consider this Jeffrey, whoever installed those spark plugs probably
: adjusted the carb too; draw your own conclusions as to what to recommend
: or do! :)
: John
: -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
: http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
I had similar problems with W8AC plugs - but only in warm weather. I
solved the problems by going to the W7AC plug in summer, and the 8's in
winter. I'd have to agree that the REAL problem was in the original 34
PICT carb.
John
'73 Superbeetle
'68 Camaro SS396
Steven Arndt
FerrisL wrote:
>
> Dave!
>
> You may be on to something there! My mechanic who installed the plugs did so
> into a brand new Brazilian engine which he said had many improvements over the
> origianl unit.
>
> I should talk to him about this I guess.
>
> Thanks for the idea!
>
> >Hi all,
> >There are some heads around with more metal around the valve-seats and
> >deeper spark-plug holes to reduce the chance of them cracking. They use
> >longer
> >reach plugs. Your mechanic *might* be right, but don't guess; you may have
> >to do a bit of crude measurement with a hooked wire to see how deep the
> >holes are.
> >Dave.
> >>Hello,
> >>
> >>I installed 4 new Bosch w8ac spark plugs in my 73 beetle.
> >>
> >>Now it hesitates and bucks until warmed up, and the performance is down. My
> >>mechanic who installed the engine had put in Beru plugs that were alot
> >longer
> >>than the bosch units.
> >>
> >>Obviously either the 3 shops that recommended the w8ac were wrong or my
> >>mechanic was wrong (but his plugs worked).
> >>
> >>Is there something odd going on ? What are the absolute proper bosch plugs
> >? I
> >>think I may simply get the same Beru ones and be done with it.
> >>
> >>Ferris
> >>1973 Super Beetle (restored to stock)
> >>
> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
All the new factory engines I have seen have long 3/4" reach plugs. I
forgot the Bosch number for them.
Jason Black
Shan Bell wrote:
>
> In article <8802805...@dejanews.com>,
> con...@sisna.com writes:
> > After you install the correct plugs (do NOT use platinum, or you will be
> > sorry), reset the timing, and adjust the carb (it will need it).
>
>
> --
> Shannon Bell Email: sh...@issl.atl.hp.com
> Voice: +1 404 648 9505 Fax: +1 404 648 9516
> Hewlett-Packard / 20 Perimeter Center Parkway, Mailstop 1107 / Atlanta GA 30319
Gene Berg didn't like them, and I don't either. My bus just ran a little
crappier with them. Perhaps they are OK for some FI, emissions-looped,
self-tuning '97 brand-new-car engine, but as for me and my uprights, we
shall be using the plain old Bosches.
J.
FerrisL
Shan Bell
con...@sisna.com
In article <65ehfl$r...@hpuerci.atl.hp.com>,
sh...@issl.atl.hp.com (Shan Bell) wrote:
>
> In article <8802805...@dejanews.com>,
> con...@sisna.com writes:
> > After you install the correct plugs (do NOT use platinum, or you will be
> > sorry), reset the timing, and adjust the carb (it will need it).
>
> What's wrong with platinum? I've heard a couple of people swearing by them.
>
> --
When used in aircooled VWs, the people tend to sweat AT them more than by
them....
Hesitation, loss of mileage, etc..... If you don't believe me, spend an
afternoon "testing".
Put new platinum plugs in (the recommended ones, of course), and drive
it. Notice the stumble? Check your mileage. Now, put in the copper's.
Crispness is back, mileage up 3mpg.
Don't take my word for it, find out for yourself. It will cost you $12
and an afternoon.
I've already been through all that BS, and I was just posting my
experiences. Draw your own conclusions. After all, I can't TEACH anything
to anyone, but I can help them LEARN!
Rob Boardman
Steven Arndt wrote:
>
>
> All the new factory engines I have seen have long 3/4" reach plugs. I
> forgot the Bosch number for them.
If the heads were designed for the 3/4" threads - fine. Maybe
"all the new factory heads" do have 3/4" plug holes. But what
do you mean by new? New Mex beetles, or 'new in 73' German heads?
Put the 3/4" plugs in a head designed for the 1/2" thread and you might
have the piston bending the outside electrode or some other nasty event.
As far as I know, the 73s originally came with 1/2" plugs.
--
Rob
R.Boa...@bom.gov.au
Use this address - incorrect address above to fool auto mailers
(1970 1500sp, one owner, 236,000 miles on it's original engine)
Rob Boardman
Shan Bell wrote:
>
> In article <8802805...@dejanews.com>,
> con...@sisna.com writes:
> > After you install the correct plugs (do NOT use platinum,
> What's wrong with platinum? I've heard a couple of people swearing by them.
>
> --
Shannon,
To repeat a reply I made previously, I have an NGK spark plug
advisory sheet which states that Platinum plugs are designed
for unleaded fuel only (OK in the US, but some counties still have
leaded, which will poison the platinum, just like a catalytic
converter gets poisoned with leaded fuel), and are designed for high
power electronic ignition systems, using wide plug gaps, for
modern engines lean burn mixes, and looong times between
plug changes because they BURY the plugs on some engines -
(check out the rear 3 cylinders on a Diamante for example).
Doesn't sound much like a VW does it.
At about $30 each (in Australia anyway) it sounds like a lot of
money for no extra benefits.
Just use the correct reach (3/4 or 1/2 inch depending on the heads)
and correct heat range steel plugs for good results.
Bosch and NGK seem to get the thumbs-up from most folks.
LaRose Racing
Platinum plugs have a "shielded" electrode design--the electrode
is actually buried within the porcelain insulator nose, and this
shielding creates problems for some engines, notably the VW air
cooled, in which the electrode is actually fuel-fouled over a
short period of time, especially when using the stock coil/points
ignition system.
Alot of it has to do with the burn characteristics of the
combustion chamber design, and something called the "swirl
pattern" of the fuel mixture, but the VW air cooled motor
benefits greatly by exposed electrode placement, common to most
OEM sparkplugs installed.
Some VW engines will benefit *even more* from spark plugs known
as "Projected nose" plugs (my experience), placing the electrode
even deeper into the combustion chamber, but one must be careful,
that the projected nose type does not touch the top of the
piston, when it's at TDC. (turn engine over slowly by hand, after
torquing plug).
Michelle
LAROSE RACING
I am Bob Lantz
Rob Boardman wrote:
---->>>> Plat plug snip <<<<-----
>
> At about $30 each (in Australia anyway) it sounds like a lot of
------^^^^^^^^^^^-------
Holy cow! Them things are about $1.78 here in the Southeast States!
Damn I always wanted to go to Australia, Maybe I can finance it with
bootleg plat plugs!
> money for no extra benefits.
>
--
"It's a magical world, Hobbes ol' buddy...
...let's go exploring"
Calvin's final words, on December 31st, 1995
Bob Lantz
Bobl...@voy.net http://voy.net/~boblantz/index.htm
Jan Andersson
LaRose Racing wrote:
--snip--
> Some VW engines will benefit *even more* from spark plugs known
> as "Projected nose" plugs (my experience), placing the electrode
> even deeper into the combustion chamber, but one must be careful,
> that the projected nose type does not touch the top of the
> piston, when it's at TDC.
How about the Bosch Super, 3-point plugs? I have a set of 4, but not for
those short plug threads..:) (Non-VW plugs) Do they make them for
VW short thread heads, and on the other hand are they worth their high
price in a T1 engine with long thread heads...? (044 heads have long
threads if I remember correctly). Any experience out there?
>(turn engine over slowly by hand, after
> torquing plug).
After torquing all the plugs, I can't imagine being able to turn the
engine over FAST by hand...;)
jan
Rob Boardman
I am Bob Lantz wrote:
>
> Rob Boardman wrote:
>
> ---->>>> Plat plug snip <<<<-----
> >
> > At about $30 each (in Australia anyway) it sounds like a lot of
> ------^^^^^^^^^^^-------
>
> Holy cow! Them things are about $1.78 here in the Southeast States!
> Damn I always wanted to go to Australia, Maybe I can finance it with
> bootleg plat plugs!
Well don't just sit there typing - come on over Bob!
Pluses
We speak English, and can understand American ;-)
Lots of VWs
Clear oceans and LOTS of beaches (we are an island continent
after all)
Not too crowded
Lots of great places to see
Kangaroos (but not in the main streets as some would have you
believe
US dollar buys about $1.30 Australian.
We invented the dry paper photocopier (no kidding)
We build the best non-nuclear subs in the world
We beat the French (and Californians too) at intenational
wine shows.
It's spring going into summer right now (are your toes
still cold)
We need/like/want your money:-)
Minuses
Petrol (sorry - gas) is about $2.90/US gal... 75c/litre
Platinum plugs are up to $30 each (so a VW mech says -
I've never tried them myself)
A few sharks in the nice clear oceans, but only a few....
It's a long way - from anywhere.
Income tax is too high!
BaezFerdi
What's wrong with those platinum ones? Advice needed.
LaRose Racing
Ferris....
To say it "simply" (!), the heads you most likely have on there
only require a 1/2 reach plug. The only reason for using
specifically Bosch, was that the threads machined into the spark
plug itself, were highly accurate, otherwise, other plugs work
fine most of the time (NGK, Bosch, Beru, etc).
Even if your 3/4" reach plugs didn't damage a piston or anything
else, the fact that they are reaching past the end of the spark
plug boss, and project that much further into the chamber, not
only blocks fuel flow around the end of the electrode, where
ignition is initiated anyway, but in fact, the plug itself may
actually overheat, causing pre-ignition (creating a "hot spot" in
your combustion chamber, providing premature ignition at the
wrong point in the engine cycle), since the overprojecting
portion of the metal threads, into the combustion chamber, will
glow red (!) being exposed to combustion.
Michelle
LAROSE RACING
Dave Hall
Just to repeat it, there are some 1600 heads around that have more metal
around the valve seats and plugs (a VW engineer friend of mine has some) and
they take the longer reach plugs (same as the Type 4 uses). But don't guess
or serious damage might be done, as Michelle rightly points out.
Dave
--
Da...@spam.me.nothallvw.clara.co.uk
Please delete "spam.me.not" when replying!
Check out the VW Type 3 & 4 Club website
at http://home.clara.net/hallvw/
for great pics, news and technical advice.
LaRose Racing <71732...@CompuServe.COM> wrote in message ...
>Ferris....
>
>To say it "simply" (!), the heads you most likely have on there
>only require a 1/2 reach plug.
>Michelle
>LAROSE RACING
Rob Boardman
BaezFerdi wrote:
>
> What's wrong with those platinum ones? Advice needed.
My NGK sparkplug guide says that the platinum plugs were developed
for cars using unleaded fuel (leaded is still used in some parts
of the world) because lead poisions platinum (just like a catalytic
converter is ruined by leaded fuel).
They were also designed to be used with high voltage electronic
ignitions to light lean-burn engines, and particularly where
the plugs are impossible to reach (like the rear 3 on a V6
Diamante/Verada) - to give 100,000km between changes.
Doesn't sounds much like a VW in any of the above does it.
You'd also have to ensure that they had the right length of
electrode which doesn't get hit by the pistons etc etc
In many parts of the world platinum plugs are VERY expensive.
(The Diamante, which is built here in Australia as the Verada,
costs EXTRA to have platinum plugs fitted as new equipement!)
Bosch, NGK and Champion all make very good steel plugs which
suit the VW.
Oh - I'm sure you can find plat plugs which will work, but
work BETTER, and last AS LONG as they are supposed to.....?
(Now I'll duck to avoid all the counter arguments from
'experts' who have been using platinum plugs in their
VWs :-)
--
Rob
R.Boardman'at'bom'dot'gov'dot'au
replace 'at' with @
replace 'dot' with .
Use this address - incorrect address above to fool auto mailers
(1970 1500sp, one owner, 237,000 miles on it's original engine)
Jan Andersson
LaRose Racing wrote:
>
> Ferris....
>
> To say it "simply" (!), the heads you most likely have on there
Good point Michelle,
I just wanted to add that there are a few more BAD things sure to happen
if you use too long plugs...
1) Carbon residue builds up in the threads very easily, and that gunk
will glow red more easily than the threads alone would... that's when
you get pre-ignition.
2) the carbon build-up will cost you a lot when you try to change the
plugs next time, it will destroy the plug threads in the head very
effectively, and it is possible that you won't be able to pull the plug
at all.
3) Because of the overheated plug problem, the plug may suffer physical
damage, parts of the electrode might break off, and find their way
into the piston rings or valve seats.. OUCH!
More: like you said, the spark is moved away from the optimal
location, more towards the center of the combustion chamber. Not good.
Part of the explosion power will then be directed UP instead of DOWN,
where you want it. (I should know about explosions...have the training
to blow things up, thanks to the army:)
What some serious engine builder back here do, is they match each plug
to the head so that neither plug threads or head threads are visible
from the chamber. They shim the plugs exactly flush with the head
surface, to obtain as little interference in the fuel flow as possible,
and to minimize sharp edges and places where carbon residue would build
up.
My 2 cents..
jan
con...@sisna.com
They also "index" spark plugs (one of my tricks). Washers are available to
rotate the plug about 1/4 turn at a time.
The trick is to have the OPEN part of the plug gap (not shielded by the
electrode) facing the main part of the combustion chamber.