Denatured Alcohol to Beat Emissions?
Ben Heavner
I'm going through the process of changing my '77 Van's registration from
TX to WA, and I'll have to get an emissions check to finish it up.
Needless to say, I'm a little nervous about it.
However, I was talking to a guy at a nearby gas station (a guy who
performs the emissions checks, conicidentally ;>) and he said that the
primary thing they're checking for is gasoline fumes, so if you put a
gallon of denatured alcohol in the tank with a couple gallons of
gasoline, you'll be sure to pass emissions because the denatured alcohol
won't release any gasoline fumes as it burns.
So my questions are: is this safe for the bus? Is it a good idea in
general? Have any of you done it, and has it worked?
I'm looking forward to getting opinions..
-Ben
Drew McCoy
Jon LeGrand wrote:
>
> I know a guy who did it with his Mustang to pass. Roll up your windows
> though, it makes you tear really badly. Where do you buy this alcohol?
> I need some to clean brake parts.
> Good luck.
At any hardware or paint store. It's wood alcohol and is used a
thinner/solvent for alcohol based finishes (like shellac).
--
Drew McCoy
69 Bug (The car of my dreams!)
90 BMW 325ic (Another nice one!)
57 T-Bird (A 40th birthday gift to my wife)
90 Volvo 740 GLE (The only car we own that can easily seat 4 adults)
Jon LeGrand
Stephen Early
In article <5hbl8k$8...@nyx10.cs.du.edu>,
Ben Heavner <bhea...@nyx10.cs.du.edu> wrote:
<snip>
>However, I was talking to a guy at a nearby gas station (a guy who
>performs the emissions checks, conicidentally ;>) and he said that the
>primary thing they're checking for is gasoline fumes, so if you put a
>gallon of denatured alcohol in the tank with a couple gallons of
>gasoline, you'll be sure to pass emissions because the denatured alcohol
>won't release any gasoline fumes as it burns.
>So my questions are: is this safe for the bus? Is it a good idea in
>general? Have any of you done it, and has it worked?
Why not try to pass the emissions test without the alcohol first?
--
Steve
sparrow
Where were you two weeks ago? He didn't pass the first time!!
John Connolly
watch out using alcohol... it is VERY corrosive to
gasoline only fuel system parts... if you do this, once you get
home, drain the alky out and get as much gas as you can back
in.... and run it a while..
John
--
Jan Andersson
sparrow wrote:
>
> Stephen Early wrote:
> >
> > In article <5hbl8k$8...@nyx10.cs.du.edu>,
> > Ben Heavner <bhea...@nyx10.cs.du.edu> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > >However, I was talking to a guy at a nearby gas station (a guy who
> > >performs the emissions checks, conicidentally ;>) and he said that the
> > >primary thing they're checking for is gasoline fumes, so if you put a
> > >gallon of denatured alcohol in the tank with a couple gallons of
> > >gasoline, you'll be sure to pass emissions because the denatured alcohol
> > >won't release any gasoline fumes as it burns.
> >
> > >So my questions are: is this safe for the bus? Is it a good idea in
> > >general? Have any of you done it, and has it worked?
I read about it yesterday in one of my books, and according to the book
it is a common trick and it does work. But there are some things you
sholuld
know when doing it: The alcohol damages all metal and rubber parts it
gets in touch with,
and it doesn't have the necessary additives that normal fuel has.
Therefore, you should
use it like this:
1) Drain your tank
2) Buy enough ethanol/methanol for 20% mix, that is 20% methanol 80%
gasoline.
Make sure you bought the stuff in a sealed container, as the alcohol
attracts
moisture, and this is BAD. It won't mix with the gasoline well enough
if it has any water in it.
In this case you need to add a little de-icer or some other solvent
to get a homogenous mixture.
3) Adjust the idle for the new fuel, and it would be a good idea to
adjust the ignition as well.
4) Drive the car to the check station, and pass the test...
5) drive home, and DRAIN the tank again, and then FILL HER UP completely
with normal gasoline,
and continue driving again, untill the whole system is free of all
methanol residue.
The 20% figure I mentioned came from my memory, I don't have the book
RIGHT HERE, so check it out.
Jan
JHutch2115
Use isopropel, It's the same thing as gas antifreez.
davewave
What does the alchohol/methanol clean up in the emissions? Will this
work in CA.? BTW, do the smog check people ever take gasoline samples
when one is required to go to a referee station?
This is an interesting discussion.
Dave.
John Connolly
the reason is that for "perfect" combustion, the car
needs twice as much (roughly) alcohol compared to gasoline....
so, by introducting alcohol into the fuel system, they whole
thing runs leaner.... 10% alky = 5 % leaner (roughly)...
also, many emmisions measure hydrocarbons, and I think alcohol
would have ZERO of this polutant....
Just a guess...
John
--
MIke Lawless
I ran an alcohol burning drag race car for several years a while back,
so I can give you insights on alcohol as a fuel. To put 20% or so in
with gasoline is asking for trouble without recalibrating the fuel
system. Also a *lot* of the rubber (and rubber substitutes) used in most
fuel systems are incompatible with alcohol. If one were to do this to
beat emissions, the best way would be to convert the thing to run
totally on methanol and register it as a vehicle using an alternative
fuel and get out of emissions testing altogether. This is an intesive
undertaking and should only be attempted with a thourogh, and I mean
THOUROGH education on the subject.
Gml...@scvnet.com
MIke Lawless wrote:
>
> John Connolly wrote:
> >
> > the reason is that for "perfect" combustion, the car
> > needs twice as much (roughly) alcohol compared to gasoline....
> > so, by introducting alcohol into the fuel system, they whole
> > thing runs leaner.... 10% alky = 5 % leaner (roughly)...
> >
> > also, many emmisions measure hydrocarbons, and I think alcohol
> > would have ZERO of this polutant....
> >
> > Just a guess...<<<
Sorry, but alcohols are hydrocarbons with attached -OH groups, Alcohols
can burn cleaner than gasoline since alcohol is composed of one molecule
of a single volatility. Gasoline is a mixture of hundreds of different
molecules of differing volatility. The least volatile molecules mix
poorly with oxygen and contribute to HC emissions.
George Lyle
--
Note: Return address altered to deflect junk e-mail.
Delete the leading "G" in the address when replying.
dj4...@aol.com
>
>What does the alchohol/methanol clean up in the emissions? Will this
>work in CA.? BTW, do the smog check people ever take gasoline samples
>when one is required to go to a referee station?
>
>This is an interesting discussion.
>
>
My guess would be this would clean up the hydrocarbons. In CA it depends on
where you are as to what they check. In high smog areas (the big cities) the do a 5
gas test and in the other areas it is a only for hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide.
I plan to check the next bug that won't pass. I plan to mix some 50/50 in a can and
hook up the fuel pump to it. I'll let you know of the difference. There is no check on
what the car is burning on the smog test.
darryl
Darryl (Dj4...@aol.com)
Desert Auto Haus
(619) 243-1868
Jan Andersson
davewave wrote:
>
> What does the alchohol/methanol clean up in the emissions? Will this
> work in CA.? BTW, do the smog check people ever take gasoline samples
> when one is required to go to a referee station?
>
> This is an interesting discussion.
>
I'll give you more details soon, I just have to take the book with me
to work one of these days. I'm on a short holiday right now, and I just
pop in at the office every now and then to check my e-mail and of course
this group... (I'm addicted, I know).
" I'll be b-b-b-back! "
Jan
VW74BUG
Well, you asked for it didn't you? I saw the response from the guy who
suggested you convert it to a full-time alcohol burner. I think he's been
sniffing too many fumes. Go with the guy who gave you the proportions to
mix it in. He's right. You can get this alcohol at a truckstop. It is sold
under the name Power Service around here. It may not be carried in your
area in that brand, but you want to use the same stuff they put in their
fuel in the winter to keep it from jelling. DO NOT USE RUBBING ALCOHOL. It
burns real hot and you could end up burning a valve.
JB
I missed the first part of this. What are the proportions and what type
of alcohol is it exactly (methyl, ethyle, ??). Does this really
drastically improve your emitions. I have to smog an old Bug in
California soon and am a little concerned about the new emision
standards.
d
Jan Andersson
JB wrote:
> I missed the first part of this. What are the proportions and what type
> of alcohol is it exactly (methyl, ethyle, ??). Does this really
> drastically improve your emitions. I have to smog an old Bug in
> California soon and am a little concerned about the new emision
> standards.
>
> d
It was me.
Either one of the alcohols you mentioned are suitable, I don't know of
any other. The proportions were 15-20 % alcohol, the rest is normal
gasoline. Mix the stuff in a separate canister, add a little acetone
(or maybe de-icer? It might work) if the alcohol doesn't want to STAY
mixed. Let it sit for 2 hours and check. Drain your tank, and fill it up
with this new juice. Adjust idle. Drive to the smog test.
Pass the test. (NOx is higher than normal, but they won't measure it
anyway). After you come home, drain the tank again, and fill her up with
clean normal gasoline, and immediately drive again for a mile or two.
You must get all the alcohol out of the system, because it damages all
metal, rubber and plastic parts of the fuel system.
Hope this helps. The original post was longer and more detailed,
try to find it.
Jan
SEWARD
Were would I find this alcohol, and how much does it usually run for ?
nathan
73'bug
59'bug
Drew McCoy
>
> Were would I find this alcohol, and how much does it usually run for ?
>
> nathan
> 73'bug
> 59'bug
Denatured alcohol is wood alcohol and is available from any paint or
hardware store.
Jan Andersson
Drew McCoy wrote:
>
> >
> > Were would I find this alcohol, and how much does it usually run for ?
> >
> > nathan
> > 73'bug
> > 59'bug
>
> Denatured alcohol is wood alcohol and is available from any paint or
> hardware store.
>
> --
> Drew McCoy
Hey, be careful with this one... Not all denatured alcohol is suitable,
the stuff they use with paint-business is NOT what I was talking about.
These solvents have all kinds of additives, oils and who knows what shit
in them. You should only use pure methanol or Ethanol (sp?), nothing
else. Back here, it's available at pharmacies. The other one (can't
remember for sure which one) I think ethanol is poisonous, so you might
have problems buying it.
Jan
John Connolly
I'll put money on the fact that more stuff is ruined
than is fixed by people trying to be smarter than the engineers
who designed everything in the first place....you had better
know whatthe hell you are getting into!
example: alky engines require MUCH more common rebuilds since
the rings and cylinders wear out so fast..... this is because
you need more than twice the fuel per unit of air for
combustion... this additional fuel washes off all the oil from
the cylinder walls...
then there is the corrosive effects on a fuel system NOT
designed for this type of fuel...and one more point, do you
have any idea what this shit does to the human body?? Try
breathing the exhaust for an idea....
John
--
Jouko Kentta
And besides who says that it should be *Denatured*....
Jouko
Michael Kubler and Alexis Howell-Kubler
Hi,
Just a quick note from a lurking toxicologist, *both* ethanol and
methanol are toxic.
Ethanol is "drinking alchol, however in industrial applications it is
'denatured' by adding something (often methanol) which makes it
unsuitable for human consumption (i.e. it will kill you). In addition,
100 mL of pure ethanol be it everclear, 195 rum, or a whole lot of beer
is fatal for the average 70 kg man. I mean it. Of course one has to
drink *alot* of beer to reach that point.
Back to the issue at hand...handle denatured ethanol with care as it is
toxic and very flammable.
I'd advise against methanol. It is *very* toxic and it starts with the
brain and eyes. Once they are trashed there is no getting over it. It
can go through your skin to some extent, and via inhalation. It is very
flammable as well.
YMMV,
Michael Kubler
kub...@worldnet.att.net
Tired of e-spam
Jan Andersson
Jouko Kentta wrote:
> And besides who says that it should be *Denatured*....
>
> Jouko
Tyyliin: "Puoli tankkia pirtua, kitoos!" ????
Luulenpa etta metanoli on jokseenkin luonnostaan "denaturoitua", huh?
(= you don't really need to "denature" methanol, for obvious reasons,
right?)
Jan
Jouko Kentta
On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Jan Andersson wrote:
> Jouko Kentta wrote:
>
>
> > And besides who says that it should be *Denatured*....
> >
> > Jouko
>
> Tyyliin: "Puoli tankkia pirtua, kitoos!" ????
> Luulenpa etta metanoli on jokseenkin luonnostaan "denaturoitua", huh?
heh :)
> (= you don't really need to "denature" methanol, for obvious reasons,
> right?)
yup, but you can use ethanol also to _beat_ emission control...
Jan, I think "marinol" is the brandname of ours (or was it Kossu???)
And Hey! remember to fill your tank right after the test (with gas of
course not with alcohol!)
>
> Jan
>
>
Jouko
Richard Herrmann
John Connolly wrote:
>
>
> then there is the corrosive effects on a fuel system NOT
> designed for this type of fuel...and one more point, do you
> have any idea what this shit does to the human body?? Try
> breathing the exhaust for an idea....
>
If it's so bad for the human body (worse than gasoline?) why does the
government encourage the production and use of Gasahol?
--
*******************************************
The Old Speedster’s AirCooled Transport
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/4505
*******************************************
Lee Hoffer
Richard Herrmann <rher...@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:
>If it's so bad for the human body (worse than gasoline?) why does the
>government encourage the production and use of Gasahol?
Like everything else the government does, it's politically motivated,
rather than aimed to truly help the people. It's kind of along the
same lines as reformulated gasoline. The gasoline companies are
forced to sell this stuff with MTBE or worse in it. They oxegenate
the fuel which lowers emissions, but also causes higher fuel
consumption. The MTBE rots fuel lines (especially in older cars) and
thus causes engine fires. This is a direct health hazard which could
result in death of innocent people, but the government still insists
on requiring it. The fact that older or high mileage cars are most
susceptable helps to confirm the theory that the government is trying
to make us all buy a new car every couple of years.
But don't take my word for it; for more information on MTBE and
reformulated gasoline, check out Chevron's web site at:
My $0.02 (and worth every penny)
-Lee
John Connolly
leehN...@alr.com writes:
>
> Like everything else the government does, it's politically motivated,
> rather than aimed to truly help the people.
> It's kind of along the
> same lines as reformulated gasoline. The gasoline companies are
> forced to sell this stuff with MTBE or worse in it. They oxegenate
> the fuel which lowers emissions, but also causes higher fuel
> consumption. The MTBE rots fuel lines (especially in older cars) and
> thus causes engine fires. This is a direct health hazard which could
> result in death of innocent people, but the government still insists
> on requiring it. The fact that older or high mileage cars are most
> susceptable helps to confirm the theory that the government is trying
> to make us all buy a new car every couple of years.
>
just because the govt requires a change doesn't
necessarily mean there is a conspiracy against us....
it just means the new fuels are not compatible with the old
components... Why don't you write a letter to Bill Gates (and
another host of CEOs) complaining that his microsoft office 97
isn't compatible with your Atari 800 "computer"....
Just replace your fuel lines, and gaskets and o-rings in your
carbs.....VWs are supposed to check fuel lines every year
anyways, and replace them every 2 years, if you didn't know
that...
I don't agree with the junker laws coming into play, but let's
be realistic...
John
--
Lee Hoffer
jl...@watt.seas.Virginia.EDU (John Connolly) wrote:
> just because the govt requires a change doesn't
>necessarily mean there is a conspiracy against us....
Maybe it's not a conspiracy, but they are aware of the problem, and
are not interested in correcting it. Note that high mileage vehicles,
even if they are new, are also affected by this problem. The
elastomers used in new and old vehicle fuel systems are not compatible
with MTBE. I read all this on Chevron's web site. I think they would
know their own products.....
>it just means the new fuels are not compatible with the old
>components... Why don't you write a letter to Bill Gates (and
>another host of CEOs) complaining that his microsoft office 97
>isn't compatible with your Atari 800 "computer"....
I'm not even going to touch that one! Office 97, or any other
Microsoft product for that matter isn't really compatible with ANY
computers! Bad analogy.
>Just replace your fuel lines, and gaskets and o-rings in your
>carbs.....VWs are supposed to check fuel lines every year
>anyways, and replace them every 2 years, if you didn't know
>that...
I know, I do, and that's excellent advice (and cheap, too).
>I don't agree with the junker laws coming into play, but let's
>be realistic...
> John
>--
My $0.02 (and worth every penny)
-Lee
Bob Hetzel
Lee Hoffer wrote:
>
> Richard Herrmann <rher...@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:
>
> >If it's so bad for the human body (worse than gasoline?) why does the
> >government encourage the production and use of Gasahol?
>
> rather than aimed to truly help the people. It's kind of along the
> same lines as reformulated gasoline. The gasoline companies are
> forced to sell this stuff with MTBE or worse in it. They oxegenate
> the fuel which lowers emissions, but also causes higher fuel
> consumption. The MTBE rots fuel lines (especially in older cars) and
> thus causes engine fires. This is a direct health hazard which could
> result in death of innocent people, but the government still insists
> on requiring it. The fact that older or high mileage cars are most
> susceptable helps to confirm the theory that the government is trying
> to make us all buy a new car every couple of years.
>
> reformulated gasoline, check out Chevron's web site at:
>
> http://www.chevron.com
Huh? I saw nothing of negative effects of methyl tertiary
butyl ether, and I can't think of any reason why it would
rot old car's fuel lines.
One reason to add alcohol as well as MTBE to gasoline is
that it causes the gasoline to combust more effectively,
reducing amounts of some of the fumes you don't want to
emit.
A side effect is that addition of alcohols makes the gasoline
evaporate more quickly, increasing hydrocarbon emissions
due to it evaporating when it comes out of the pump more
rapidly. That's why it's required in some northern cities
only in winter, because this effect is directly related
to surrounding air temperature, and thus diminishes in the
cold months.
One reason the goverment has pushed the use of gasahol instead
of other additives is that the farm lobby is still rather
powerful.
--
I wasn't very good at hosting [a talk show on tv], because I didn't
really care about the guests.
-- George Carlin
John Connolly
there is a political group called lobbyists who you can put
some of the blame with....don't bitch to me about it..
John
--
Andrew Jon Sallee
Maybe because Bill Gates can't force me to buy his products. Or
at least the MSP (MicroSoft Police) haven't made it this far east
yet. Should we be making plans???
John Connolly wrote:
>
><snip>
> it just means the new fuels are not compatible with the old
> components... Why don't you write a letter to Bill Gates (and
> another host of CEOs) complaining that his microsoft office 97
> isn't compatible with your Atari 800 "computer"....
>
> --
--
Andrew Sallee
ajsa...@umich.edu
