Flat lobes on VW cam
DJD
gone flat. This was a GB300 cam that had about 25000 miles on it.
I had noticed two of my ENGLE cams were starting to experience lobe
wear. These were all manufactured on Genuine VW billets. All three cams
were installed with new lifters, not reground, and properly broken in.
I understand VW had a cam lobe problem in the early '60's. Can any of
you metallurgists out there shed some light on this problem. I know
Buick had some lobe problems with mid '80's 305 motors.
I have to build three motors this winter and I am now aprehensive about
installing the Engle and Berg cams.
Thinks in advance.
DJD.
Gary Miller
Cylde and the guys spent a ton of time on this recently. I think they even
break in cams to weed out bad ones. E-mail or phone 'em for the latest.
In the end, pushrod motors are only so good for hp and life, you get to
make the tradeoff. Roller lifters would be nice, SBC and SBF use 'em when
they can. These lobes get 2x normal wear, due to 2 lifters in contact.
Another reason for full flow oil filters.
the 7/8" od hydraulic SBFord lifters will be installed in a version of
the TF-1 case, Super HD aluminum sand cast 2 piece. Todd Francis
t...@pacifier.com is tooling this unit.
--
Gary Miller
Miller Fuel Injection
http://www.millerfi.com
360-944-4422
Kaferdave
>> gone flat
Clyde Berg has indeed spent some time on this problem, as have other noted
engine builders, like Fred Simpson of Performance Technology. Bergs has a cam
break-in fixture that mocks up the valve train, and has the cam bathed in oil,
where it is run for a number of days, until Clyde has determined that the lobes
will not go flat. Clyde has said that this is not foolproof by any means, and
that even after he does the break-in procedure, occasionally cams still go
flat, but not at the rate he was seeing previously. Give them a call at (714)
998-7500, they have a cam break-in service that they charge a nominal fee for,
I don't know if they will do it on cams othewre than Berg's, though
John Connolly
I strongly recommend everyone out there to choose another cam maker, or
find OLD cams from them (NOS). If anyone is interested, I have a VZ-25
that's NOS and 8 years old (a sure good one) for sale.
John
DJD wrote:
> Recently pulled my buddies BERG motor down. One of the intake lobes had
> gone flat. This was a GB300 cam that had about 25000 miles on it.
> I had noticed two of my ENGLE cams were starting to experience lobe
> wear. These were all manufactured on Genuine VW billets. All three cams
> were installed with new lifters, not reground, and properly broken in.
> I understand VW had a cam lobe problem in the early '60's. Can any of
> you metallurgists out there shed some light on this problem. I know
> Buick had some lobe problems with mid '80's 305 motors.
> I have to build three motors this winter and I am now aprehensive about
> installing the Engle and Berg cams.
> Thinks in advance.
> DJD.
--
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Oh, and while you're at it, here's a taste of your own medicine!
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DJD
with the pre-run breakin to arrive at my door. This isn't the solution I
am hoping for.
Speaking with ENGLE, they advise..they have had no problems... Why me?
Anyone have any experience with WEB cams? I build mainly mild to hot
street motors. Not track wonders. These must live!
Any metallurgists ot there in this NG?
DJD
John Connolly
Shoddy machining. Engle recently moved thier machining to Mexico from the US
for lower overhead, and the ramp angles and finish grinding is horrible.
John
Gary Miller wrote:
> In article <3689342F...@netinc.ca>, DJD <dal...@netinc.ca> wrote:
>
> > Recently pulled my buddies BERG motor down. One of the intake lobes had
> > gone flat. This was a GB300 cam that had about 25000 miles on it.
> > I had noticed two of my ENGLE cams were starting to experience lobe
> > wear. These were all manufactured on Genuine VW billets. All three cams
> > were installed with new lifters, not reground, and properly broken in.
> > I understand VW had a cam lobe problem in the early '60's. Can any of
> > you metallurgists out there shed some light on this problem. I know
> > Buick had some lobe problems with mid '80's 305 motors.
> > I have to build three motors this winter and I am now aprehensive about
> > installing the Engle and Berg cams.
> > Thinks in advance.
> > DJD.
>
> Cylde and the guys spent a ton of time on this recently. I think they even
> break in cams to weed out bad ones. E-mail or phone 'em for the latest.
>
> In the end, pushrod motors are only so good for hp and life, you get to
> make the tradeoff. Roller lifters would be nice, SBC and SBF use 'em when
> they can. These lobes get 2x normal wear, due to 2 lifters in contact.
> Another reason for full flow oil filters.
>
> the 7/8" od hydraulic SBFord lifters will be installed in a version of
> the TF-1 case, Super HD aluminum sand cast 2 piece. Todd Francis
> t...@pacifier.com is tooling this unit.
>
> --
> Gary Miller
> Miller Fuel Injection
> http://www.millerfi.com
> 360-944-4422
--
SR92
properly after grinding. Cam lobes and lifter bases that are the same
approximate hardness will wear evenly. Of course if they're both soft they'll
both wear quickly. Many cam grinders don't harden the lobes at all. Some
others don't do it properly. I've had the same problem with lifters, but it's
always been the reground ones that have worn prematurely.
Steve
Some days you're the WINDSHIELD.............Some days you're the BUG!
Check out my VW website at http://members.aol.com/sr92/index.html
Every Craftsman handtool known to man (automotive)
Mike Testa
I've used the WEB 121 in sand rails before, they provide exception mid
and top end (3000-7000). No bottom end though. The WEB 121/125 is great
for bottom through mid, and has decent top end. I used one in a 2110 3
or 4 years ago. IMHO, WEB produces fine camshafts, but you still can't
beat the Engle 100 or 110 for a small street motor. I have a 110 siting
on a bench waiting to go into a 1915, now I'm worried about it.
Banzai KG
<First off, I am a BERG fan. I waited almost 6 months for the new GB300
with the pre-run breakin to arrive at my door. This isn't the solution I am
hoping for.
Speaking with ENGLE, they advise..they have had no problems... Why me?>
You are not the only one that had a flat cam problem. I too, had a GB308 cam
go flat on my 2007cc, 7.2:1 comp, dual 40mm Dellorto'd motor while driving my
KG during the 2nd Annual Gene Berg National Memorial Cruise from the SF Bay
Area to VOA in Auburn Hills, MI. Details of last years' Berg Cruise was in VW
Trends December 1997 issue.
I am now hoping the current Engle 110 (GB297) will hold up in my 1776, 7.0:1,
dual Berg/Weber 42 DCNF Specials which I am once again cruised in the 3rd
Annual Gene Berg National Cruise, in the current VW Trends, February 1998
issue.
During this year's Berg Cruise, I was averaging 27-31 MPG.
Jim Kikuchi
Sunnyvale, CA
ICQ#: 17910675
1964 Karmann Ghia coupe
CA license plate: BNZAI KG (Banzai Karmann Ghia)
V.V.W.C.A -- Golden Gate Chapter member
http://reality.sgi.com/csp/ggvvwca/
Wolfsburg Pacific VW Club (Oakland, CA) member
KGCNA (Karmann Ghia Club of North America) member
http://s2k-ftp.cs.berkeley.edu:8000/personal/rtroy/kgcna/
Forrob12
left out or has diminished and the cam will wears prematurely. WebCams will
NOT warranty their cams anymore if synthetic oil is used.
Cams run in identical engines except one used synthetic and the other normal
oil, the cam in the synthetic oil ran flat.
Robert
Joe Cali - Next Generation
owned by our parent company. What crap compared to the original stuff. Man
I wonder about how they keep the quality up on the new Beetle. Also I read
the workers get paid $15 per day. Big profit when selling it at $18,000
min.
Joe
John Connolly wrote in message <36895287...@bigfoot.com>...
WV TOH
of flat lobes and the problem seems to be with the billets they're using. I
seem to recall an article in Hot Vw's back in june or so that mentioned that
most of the cam suppliers all use the same billets that are supplied by a
company in Michigan. According to Clyde, Engle denies doing anything different
in the hardening process and can't really explain why some people are
experiencing these failures.
. The Berg's have been trying different things to help the cams make it thru
those critical 1st 1500 miles or so, including the break in fixture that was
mentioned. In a departure from their normal recommendation of using STP during
assembly, they have been using a product from Torco with some success. It's
part #GB 324-Torco and I used it on my engine. So far, after 5000 miles I've
had no problems with my Engle 110 cam. Sometimes you get lucky I suppose ?? If
you want to look for it somewhere besides Berg Enterprises, it's called Valco
MPZ cam Lube and it comes in a 1 oz. tube that should be plenty for one
engine.
Hopefully someone will find out the root of the problem and fix it so engine
builders don't have to constantly wonder if they'll be pulling that just built
motor out to replace another flat cam !!!
Robert K
1967 sunroof bug
1965 1500s notchback
No money left for paint, Gene Berg has it all!!
GazMP
>Recently pulled my buddies BERG motor down. One of the intake lobes had
>gone flat. This was a GB300 cam that had about 25000 miles on it.
There was a batch of bad blanks that all the cam grinder buy. The manufacturer
who makes them had this duff collection, which has gone now. The fault
apparently appeared a bit quicker than 25k, but this was a while back, about 2
years I think. So if your cam is from about that time you might want to
contact GBE and see what they have to say.
Gaz
To e-mail me remove the ".nospam"
Visit the RAMVA FAQ index at
http://members.aol.com/ramva/index.html
for all your aircooled VW questions
John Connolly
changed manufacturers and thats when the trouble started. It's all about money,
not quality. It's a difference of about $10 a cam, and the VW market is ALL
about price, and nothing but.
If someone wants good cams that won't go flat, I'll sell em' to you.
John
Joe Cali - Next Generation wrote:
> Hi John! John my company started to get elevator parts from a Mexican plant
> owned by our parent company. What crap compared to the original stuff. Man
> I wonder about how they keep the quality up on the new Beetle. Also I read
> the workers get paid $15 per day. Big profit when selling it at $18,000
> min.
> Joe
>
> John Connolly wrote in message <36895287...@bigfoot.com>...
> >Just so you know, the problem is the Engle cams (that come out of Mexico).
> >Shoddy machining. Engle recently moved thier machining to Mexico from the
> US
> >for lower overhead, and the ramp angles and finish grinding is horrible.
> >
> >John
> >
> >Gary Miller wrote:
> >
> >> In article <3689342F...@netinc.ca>, DJD <dal...@netinc.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Recently pulled my buddies BERG motor down. One of the intake lobes had
> >> > gone flat. This was a GB300 cam that had about 25000 miles on it.
John Connolly
run Engle cams, which are now shit. The problem is Engle, plain and simple.
John
GazMP wrote:
> In article <3689342F...@netinc.ca>, DJD <dal...@netinc.ca> writes:
>
> >Recently pulled my buddies BERG motor down. One of the intake lobes had
> >gone flat. This was a GB300 cam that had about 25000 miles on it.
>
> There was a batch of bad blanks that all the cam grinder buy. The manufacturer
> who makes them had this duff collection, which has gone now. The fault
> apparently appeared a bit quicker than 25k, but this was a while back, about 2
> years I think. So if your cam is from about that time you might want to
> contact GBE and see what they have to say.
>
> Gaz
> To e-mail me remove the ".nospam"
> Visit the RAMVA FAQ index at
> http://members.aol.com/ramva/index.html
> for all your aircooled VW questions
--
Tony W
was beutfully made but I've yet to try it.
Tony
John Connolly <johnco...@bigfoot.com> wrote in article
<368A37CF...@bigfoot.com>...
Jan Andersson
>
> First off, I am a BERG fan. I waited almost 6 months for the new GB300
> with the pre-run breakin to arrive at my door. This isn't the solution I
> am hoping for.
> Speaking with ENGLE, they advise..they have had no problems... Why me?
> street motors. Not track wonders. These must live!
> Any metallurgists ot there in this NG?
> DJD
Try John Spohn, he's busy with his job at the moment I guess, so you
rarely see posts from him these days (I'm hoping to see a change there,
but without hurting his business..!)
John can be reached at ke...@edgenet.net he knows a lot about
metallurgy. A lot more than I do anyway..! (His line of business more or
less is depending on this type of knowledge)
Tell John I said hello
Jan
Gary Miller
noses get to be knife edge with flat lifters, and the accel forces from
lifter and valve do not cancel spring pressure, creating ultra-high load
and wear. Cams love just below float, this gives minumal wear at tip,
higher flank loads due to start of lift but there is more metal there.
Idle tests are standard for street cams from big-3 US mfg's.
You don't get something for nothing. (Rush tune. God, I'm a dinosoaur).
Raymond T. Lowe
>
>Berg is STILL having the problem. They run too high a spring pressures,
>and they run Engle cams, which are now shit. The problem is Engle, plain
>and simple.
>
>John
How about the Bugpack 4061, 4062, etc?
The local shop (actually a chain) has sold a shitload of these and I've
had 3 - 4061's. Never had any unusual lobe wear with them.
RT
--
To send e-mail, please remove "bogus" from address.
Randy Post
used
Torco cam lube on the cam lobes and lifters.
Torco's web site is http://www.torcoracingoils.com/auto.html
The cam lube is the last product on that page.
It's more important what procedures you use on initial startup than what
you use as cam lube. The Berg catalog states that most cams go flat
because of improper startup. By that I mean starting up the engine the
first time after assembly.
Randy
Randy Post
Since you have made four posts on this subject, I will have to consider
you the "Bob Hoover" of Engle cams. (I'm imagining someone thinking
"I know Bob Hoover and John, you're no Bob Hoover.") I was in Bob Hoover
country last week looking for a vacuum advance distributor, but I
digress.
Anyway, I have a GB296 (equivalent to an Engle 100) with 800 miles on
it. The box it came in has a Berg supplied sticker on it with the date:
11/5/96. I'm sitting down so give it to me straight. Do you think I
got a reliable cam made in Santa Monica (where OJ lost the civil trial),
or one from a bad batch like Gaz (see below) thinks, or one from Mexico
(where OJ was headed, excuse me -- allegedly headed in the white Ford
Bronco)?
Randy
P.S.
How does one arrive at the suspicion that a cam has gone flat?
John Connolly wrote:
>
> Berg is STILL having the problem. They run too high a spring pressures, and they
> run Engle cams, which are now shit. The problem is Engle, plain and simple.
>
> John
>
WV TOH
the puzzle. The post was getting too long so I left that off, assuming others
would know that part. When I first started my engine, I had it on an engine
stand instead of in the car. I used the break in procedure as outlined by Bob
Hoover in his sermons and this probably had as much to do with the
"nonflattening" of my cam as anything else. Doesn't hurt to use all the tools
at your disposal though....
>It's more important what procedures you use on initial startup than what
>you use as cam lube. The Berg catalog states that most cams go flat
>because of improper startup. By that I mean starting up the engine the
>first time after assembly.
ACEVW
ACEVW
art...
DJD
required on opposing cylinders/valves. This is followed several days
later by a drop in power. ie running on 2 cylinders.
DR ruble
seems that something strange is going on with the cwc billet s that almost all
if not all the cam grinders are using .So far there seems to be no ready answer
but its not just the berg& engle cams with this problem dr