Static 32 degrees BTDC!?!? No way!!! Way?
Shag
according to the code and Mr. Muir my engine should be timed at 5
degrees ATDC. I just now checked the static timing and it looks like
it's set to... oh, about 32 degrees BTDC. WTF?!? It's an
aftermarket pulley but it is keyed so I don't see how it could be off
that much unless it's just LAME and the timing numbers are just
bogus... but... I turned the bolt counter-clockwise the first time
I saw the test light come on at 32 degrees BTDC thinking "No way!!!"
so I could back it up a little and try again and... the bolt came
loose very easily. Hmmm... So I removed the pulley with a few
wiggles and tugs. I was not able to do that when I pulled the pulley
off of the LCB many moons ago. I had to use a 3-arm puller to get
that one off. I put my new sand seal pulley into place just enough to
line it up with the key thingie on the end of the crank and checked...
and it looked like it was also right around 30 degress BTDC. The
crank orientation got moved a tiny bit while swapping the pulley...
but it looks like this thing is timed WAAAAY too advanced. I removed
the passenger side valve cover while doing this and watched the valves
on #1 cylinder and they both closed up just as the rotor was heading
towards plug wire #1 so that much looked right like it was on the
compression stroke for #1 cylinder. What do y'all think? I know I've
heard some stories of how amazed people are when these engines run
even when the timing is waaay out, but does this sound likely to you
that mine is set at 32 BTDC and that it still runs? The reason I was
checking the timing is that I've been having trouble getting the rail
to start. Once started it seems to run pretty well... Thanks in
advance for input.
Speedy Jim
You can NOT rely on the engine code NOR
the sainted Mr. Muir for timing advice. Period.
The ONLY thing that decides timing spec is the
particular distrib which is in the engine NOW.
Got a distrib with 2 vac hoses?? Then the initial
timing IS 5 deg ATDC. BUT......you can't
use a static timing lamp to set it.
Got ANY other distrib?? Then go here:
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm
and look it up.
P.S. I'm in a humorous mood tonight.
Speedy Jim
http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/
Shag
> You can NOT rely on the engine code NOR
> the sainted Mr. Muir for timing advice. Period.
>
> The ONLY thing that decides timing spec is the
> particular distrib which is in the engine NOW.
>
> Got a distrib with 2 vac hoses?? Then the initial
> timing IS 5 deg ATDC. BUT......you can't
> use a static timing lamp to set it.
>
> Got ANY other distrib?? Then go here:
> http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm
> and look it up.
>
>
> P.S. I'm in a humorous mood tonight.
>
>Speedy Jim
>http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/
Thanks, Speedy. Centrifugal advance only. Looks like this is the one
I have:
VW Models Equipped With "009" Distributor
Distributor: VW 126-905-205, Bosch 0231 178 009
<snip>
Timing Set At:: Most applications - 5 to 7.5deg BTDC Static. Full
advance should not exceed 32 degrees at 3000rpm with stroboscopic
timing light.
------------------------------
Do y'all think I can probably trust the markings on the new pulley I
just got? It is keyed for the crankshaft key thingie. If so then I'm
gonna install it tomorrow and set my timing for static ~6 degrees BTDC
and then will check it with my timing light to see what my full
advance is and go from there.
Joey Tribiani
"Shag" <travist67...@gmail.com> wrote in message >
> Do y'all think I can probably trust the markings on the new pulley I
> just got? It is keyed for the crankshaft key thingie. If so then I'm
> gonna install it tomorrow and set my timing for static ~6 degrees BTDC
> and then will check it with my timing light to see what my full
> advance is and go from there.
>
meathod...get out an old sparkplug and weld a bolt to the end....put it in
the number one (you can actually use *any* of the cylinders here, but yours
are all easy to get to so use number 1) turn the engine by hand slowly till
the piston contacts the stop....note degree mark on the pulley(at the seam)
then rotate the engine backwards till it touches the stop again....note
degrees on the pulley...true TDC will be halfway between the two marks at
the "stop" position.... then you can trust the pulley if you know how
accurate it is(compensate for any difference, mine is about a degree
off)....once you know for sure ,set the timing at about 30BTDC at full
advance(the standard 3000rpms is fine)....you can go as much as 32, but it
isn't always necessary to go that far....i'd try 30 first then you can bump
it up to 32 to see if the engine "likes" that....
Shag
wrote:
Too late... Already did that... a few years ago for the LCB...
http://bugadventures.dyndns.org/sandseal/2.jpg :-) You may have been
the one who described the technique of how to do that to me the last
time. I still have the spark plug with the bolt welded to it. I'm
lazy. I just don't see how 2 different pulleys that both are keyed
for the crank key thingie could be off by the same amount. Plus since
it's right at 32 BTDC for *static* timing and the recommendation is 32
BTDC for *total* advance, I'm guessing that whoever set the timing
last may have just dialed it in for 32 BTDC. I really think the
timing marks on both pulleys are correct. Who knows, if I get up
early enough tomorrow and have a LOT of time to kill before everyone
else wakes up then maybe I'll go to the trouble of using my fancy
modified spark plug to find *real* TDC. I'm just really hopeful that
retarding the timing by 25 degrees or so from where it is now will
help the hard-start problem. At the very least I don't see how it
could *hurt* any. :-)
Joey Tribiani
> Too late... Already did that... a few years ago for the LCB...
> http://bugadventures.dyndns.org/sandseal/2.jpg :-) You may have been
> the one who described the technique of how to do that to me the last
> time. I still have the spark plug with the bolt welded to it. I'm
> lazy. I just don't see how 2 different pulleys that both are keyed
> for the crank key thingie could be off by the same amount. Plus since
> it's right at 32 BTDC for *static* timing and the recommendation is 32
> BTDC for *total* advance, I'm guessing that whoever set the timing
> last may have just dialed it in for 32 BTDC. I really think the
> timing marks on both pulleys are correct. Who knows, if I get up
> early enough tomorrow and have a LOT of time to kill before everyone
> else wakes up then maybe I'll go to the trouble of using my fancy
> modified spark plug to find *real* TDC. I'm just really hopeful that
> retarding the timing by 25 degrees or so from where it is now will
> help the hard-start problem. At the very least I don't see how it
> could *hurt* any. :-)
>
im with ya shag....if the two pulleys read the same its a good chance that
they are accurate...as far as them being keyed and that translating to being
accurate, not so...the degree rings only come either engraved, screenprinted
or attatched to the pulley, so they can and sometimes are "off"...but not
usually that far....do a simple test to make sure the distributor isn't
"locked out" ....pop the cap and twist the rotorshaft to the left...it
should move, then "spring" back....if it doesn't the distributor could be
locked out(read: no advance) and therefore set for "max" advance....but i
doubt it...with it set at 32 BTDC static, it would top out around
50-52(approx) BTDC running at full advance, and the vehicle *will*run
there...and maybe even *seem* to run well there...but it tends to overheat
and detonate....and that can cause sudden loss of power that goes away after
the engine sits for a bit and cools down...it usually comes on at highway
speed or high load conditions(large grades) and is like a dead miss and can
go as far as total stall...not good for the engine....at startup it should
crank over slow and struggle to crank....kind of a slow weak
sounding(sometimes seeming to actually stop) cranking, compared to normal
faster/smoother cranking...
Shag
wrote:
>
I did do that earlier today, just to see uh... if it would move like I
thought it should move and it did. I could "advance" it manually like
that and it would spring right back.
>.if it doesn't the distributor could be
>locked out(read: no advance) and therefore set for "max" advance....but i
>doubt it...with it set at 32 BTDC static, it would top out around
>50-52(approx) BTDC running at full advance, and the vehicle *will*run
>there...and maybe even *seem* to run well there...but it tends to overheat
>and detonate....and that can cause sudden loss of power that goes away after
>the engine sits for a bit and cools down...it usually comes on at highway
>speed or high load conditions(large grades) and is like a dead miss and can
>go as far as total stall...not good for the engine....at startup it should
>crank over slow and struggle to crank....kind of a slow weak
>sounding(sometimes seeming to actually stop) cranking, compared to normal
>faster/smoother cranking...
>
Which describes *exactly* the symptoms I've been seeing so far.
Earlier I told my wife how I could see the extra advance make for hard
starting and she asked if it could also make it run crappy after
running it hard (on the highway kinda thing) and I told her I could
also see the extra advance making it run hot and causing it to
detonate and...and...and... exactly what you said. Man, I hope that
this is the problem I've been trying to nail down. Hmm... and it
would run just fine on the trails... where I was putting along
without revving the motor very high...not getting into the full
advance... it *seems* to be making more and more sense now. I'll
find out soon enough. Thanks for the feedback. Yeah... slow weak
sounding startup.... that is EXACTLY what it seems like... and I
could see why... firing too early fighting "back" against the pistons
instead of... you know. Damn.... this has GOT to be it... Must....
not... go out in the garage.... now..... Must wait until......
tomorrow....
Joey Tribiani
"Shag" <travist67...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Man, I hope that
> this is the problem I've been trying to nail down. Hmm... and it
> would run just fine on the trails... where I was putting along
> without revving the motor very high...not getting into the full
> advance... it *seems* to be making more and more sense now. I'll
> find out soon enough. Thanks for the feedback. Yeah... slow weak
> sounding startup.... that is EXACTLY what it seems like... and I
> could see why... firing too early fighting "back" against the pistons
> instead of... you know. Damn.... this has GOT to be it... Must....
> not... go out in the garage.... now..... Must wait until......
> tomorrow....
I see the light from here....I agree you are "onto" something
here...here....set that timing and take a ride...I think will see a
change...at over advanced the power is "peaky" too....at a more correct
setting it is a smooth power "band"...a smoother sounding engine, and just
"smoother" ...I think you follow me here...
John Willis
scribbled this interesting note:
Which just goes to show, when you first get a used vehicle, go over it
bit by bit and find the "bugs" the previous owner left for you to
discover!:~)
--
John Willis
(Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)
MUADIB®
>Which just goes to show, when you first get a used vehicle, go over it
>bit by bit and find the "bugs" the previous owner left for you to
>discover!:~)
or you just might get to buy new p&c and other wonderful bits that you
destroyed overheating the engine.............possibly just buying a
new engine altogether.
BTDT
Remove "YOURPANTIES" to reply
MUADIB®
http://www.angelfire.com/retro/ssterile/MAIN%20PAGE.html
one small step for man,.....
One giant leap for attorneys.
Joey Tribiani
"MUADIB®" <SSTERRELL2...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:k8ra81ldg4h4ficri...@4ax.com...
>
> >Which just goes to show, when you first get a used vehicle, go over it
> >bit by bit and find the "bugs" the previous owner left for you to
> >discover!:~)
>
> or you just might get to buy new p&c and other wonderful bits that you
> destroyed overheating the engine.............possibly just buying a
> new engine altogether.
>
> BTDT
>
yes....i bought a used "running" engine from a fellow once..."freshly tuned
and *ready* to go"...put it in, started it up, sounded good....didn't
doublecheck anything....(this went into a freshly completed baja i built
from two wrecked bugs)...drove it for two days, it ran "good"...then it
happened...it spit smoke and flames and lost power....smoked badly for a
couple weeks(and i mean BAD) till i had time to tear into it...the entire
upper third of the number 1 piston was burned...at one point (the uppermost
part, as installed) there was no piston "top" and no material down to the
oil control ring...no wonder it smoked...but it still ran well...LOL....it
as a timing issue...but with loud exhaust i never heard the detonation that
was obviously taking place.....expensive, but very valuable lesson to do as
John W suggested...
Jim Adney
wrote:
>Just checked the engine code at the alternator stand base and
>according to the code and Mr. Muir my engine should be timed at 5
>degrees ATDC. I just now checked the static timing and it looks like
>it's set to... oh, about 32 degrees BTDC. WTF?!?
Yes, very strange.
It makes me wonder whether the mech adv in your dist is working, or
stuck at full advance. Grab the rotor and turn it CW. It should turn
about a cm and then snap back smartly when you release it.
If it doesn't, you need to fix your advance mech which will also fix
your starting problem.
-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney jad...@vwtype3.org
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------
Shag
with my modified spark plug and found "true" TDC. Looks like the
pulley markings are off by about 7 degrees. Wound up breaking the bolt
off of the spark plug in the head. Y'all can thank Gary for me not
putting together a "head removal/installation for dummies" web page.
His voice of reason convinced me to fish the bolt out with a magnetic
telescoping thingie. That was the easiest part of my morning. It
came right out on the very first try. I adjusted the valves and set
timing to be ~5 degrees BTDC. Turned the key and... blah. Same
crap. Just wouldn't start. Starting to wonder if maybe the bolt on
the spark plug got bent to the side when I was finding "true" TDC and
I got it wrong because of that...since it did break off in the head...
So I started second-guessing myself instead of backing up to square
one and starting over. Started twisting the distributor a little this
way...a little that way while trying to start it up... finally...
VROOM! Came back to life... I put my timing gun on it and it looked
like it was advancing to about 80 degrees BTDC when I revved it up
some. NOT good... backed the timing way off so that it was hitting
just barely over (probably) 30 degrees BTDC at full advance. Shut the
engine off and checked the timing statically and it said it was set
for about 20 degrees BTDC. *sigh* Too much guesswork on my part. My
results SUCK. Before I damage anything I'm going to call it a day and
look at it again tomorrow and start out by trying to find out for
CERTAIN *exactly* where TDC is. Even so... I'm only seeing about 10
degrees of additional advance in timing over what I see when I check
the static timing. No... no... I'd better not go there. Time to quit
guessing or I'll find myself out there installing a new distributor
just "to check". Must force self to stop guessing and start over...
Maybe I should take it as a sign how easy I fished that bolt out of
the spark plug hole and just go fishing for the rest of the day. Sure
would be a nice day to go offroading... *sniffle* DAMNIT.
On Fri, 13 May 2005 23:20:58 -0400, "Joey Tribiani" <no...@home.com>
wrote:
>
tricky
The way I find TDC is to put the end of a screwdriver in #1 spark plug
hole and turn the engine over slowly whilst holding the screw driver.
You can feel the driver - rise - stop - and fall - again. When it stops
at the top before going back down, thats TDC.
I guess also you disty could be "shag"ed !
Rich
John Willis
scribbled this interesting note:
>Damnit. The timing seems to be all over the place.
Get a better distributor to start with. You don't know how good that
009 is. It might be one of the rare good ones, but chances are against
that. Or you could just do as you already suggest, start from scratch.
If it were me and if I were having these difficulties, I'd yank the
distributor and tear into it to double check function. Or I'd install
a known good distributor and use it for comparison. Double check all
the valve lash. Nail down the inaccuracies in the new pulley and make
definitive marks on it as to where the various timing marks need to be
(TDC, idle advance, full advance-those are the only ones you need to
know anyway.)
You don't want to burn up an engine. Learn from the mistakes Chris
admits to making!:~)
Jan Andersson
That's not very accurate, since there is *very little* piston movement
right at TDC where the crank goes past the highest point of travel. I
would definitely do it Shaggie's way. Only I have a spark plug that'
sbeen gurtted and threaded for an M10 bolt that I can screw through it
and lock in place. You turn the engine one way first, until the piston
meets the bolt. VERY lightly. Mark the spot on the pulley. Then turn teh
engine the opposite direction until the piston hits the bolt again. mark
the pulley. Your TDC is precisely half way between the marks you made,
not even one degree off.
Jan
Shag
<bug...@rocketcom.mail> wrote:
>
>That's not very accurate, since there is *very little* piston movement
>right at TDC where the crank goes past the highest point of travel. I
>would definitely do it Shaggie's way. Only I have a spark plug that'
>sbeen gurtted and threaded for an M10 bolt that I can screw through it
>and lock in place. You turn the engine one way first, until the piston
>meets the bolt. VERY lightly. Mark the spot on the pulley. Then turn teh
>engine the opposite direction until the piston hits the bolt again. mark
>the pulley. Your TDC is precisely half way between the marks you made,
>not even one degree off.
>
>Jan
*puff puff pant pant*
I lied.
I went back out there and took that spark plug and ground the tip of
it down again and took a punch and smashed out the center section
where the electrode thingie normally is. Got a nice hollow center.
Then I ground down the head of the bolt until it would *almost* fit
into that hollowed out center. Then I tapped that bolt in so it was
fitting tighter than a.... well, let's just say it was TIGHT. I also
mixed up some JB Weld and globbed it neatly around that bolt. It
ain't going NOWHERE. (Yeah, I know that's a double negative. Deal
with it. ;-) So then... I put the modified spark plug back in
cylinder #1 spot, blah blah blah... and turned out that the pulley was
DEAD ON. TDC on the pulley was, in fact, TDC. The piston contacted
the bolt at exactly 35 degrees on each side of TDC mark on the pulley.
OK... So now to DEFINITELY set the static timing correctly. I set it
to where I *KNOW* it was at 5 degrees BTDC. Tightened down the nut to
hold the distributor in place. A little more... a little more... a
little more... Hmm... You guessed it. Stupid nut was stripped. Not
the thread on the bolt, but the nut. (hmm... could this be how the
engine *was* running ok but began to *not* run ok... timing is not
guaranteed if the distributor is free to rotate around... hmmm...)
Time to cuss and throw a few things. OK, got that done... Looked at
the bolt closely... dang thing looks all bent to hell. Very nice.
Meet Mr Dremel, biz-atch!!! bbbbzzzzzzzzz!!!!!! One bolt, cut in
half... Removed the "nut" half of the bolt... and found the head end
of the bolt was somehow permanently attached to the bracket thingie.
Well, "permanent" can be a relative term. bbbbzzzzz!!!!!! Bye bye,
bolt head!!! Still the body of the bolt was "permanently" stuck in
there. Meet Mr Drill, you #$%&*!!! WHIRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
SQEEEEALLLLLL!!!!!!! SQUEEEAL LIKE A PIG!!!!! No... wait, that was
just a movie... One bolt, COMPLETELY gone. (Oh, I took pictures of
all of this, by the way. I'll post them later to show off my
crazy-mad machine-shop-kinda skillz.) So I found a bolt and a nut
that fits perfectly. During all of this I'd removed the distributor
so I put everything back into place and attached the distributor
bracket back to the engine case with that nut... but... as my nut got
tighter (heh heh) the damn bracket forced the distributor back up out
of the hole enough to disengage the drive gear thingie. You know what
I mean. I've heard horror stories where the distributor drive gear
doesn't fully mesh and it grinds the gears all up and causes BIG
problems, or maybe I just dreamed that. While I was drilling and
stuff to remove that bolt, the bracket got slightly bent. I've had
enough for today. Will have to remove the bracket and bend it a few
times to get it just right so that I can be sure the distributor is
FULLY seated. I'm still not counting on all of that fixing the
problems I'm having with hard starting. I've actually tossed the idea
around in my head a few times of towing the rail to a local air-cooled
shop and having them figure out what the hell is wrong with it. I
wish this had happened during the winter. I don't mind so much
working on this kinda thing, but when it takes away from the
offroading stuff... Well, that just sucks. But... things could be a
LOT worse than they are. Stay tuned... and suggestions and ideas are
always welcome. Thanks.
tricky
While I bow to your superior race engine experience :-) , I was just
trying to provide an aproximate, and easy, way to find TDC on a 'stock'
engine, where a degree either way is a good starting point !
I do like the bolt idea, and will have to try it ! :-) . This is a new
idea I have learn't from ramva .
Rich
Shag
<jdwill...@airmail.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 14 May 2005 14:24:53 GMT, Shag <travist67...@gmail.com>
>scribbled this interesting note:
>
>>Damnit. The timing seems to be all over the place.
>
>Get a better distributor to start with. You don't know how good that
>009 is. It might be one of the rare good ones, but chances are against
>that.
Yeah, I know, but I don't want to just throw parts at the problem.
I'd like to figure out what's screwed up and address that problem.
I'm trying to think of what changed. I mean everything WAS running
great. Everything got soaking wet a few times... I wonder if I
haven't somehow compromised that little ignition module thingie.
>Or you could just do as you already suggest, start from scratch.
>If it were me and if I were having these difficulties, I'd yank the
>distributor and tear into it to double check function. Or I'd install
>a known good distributor and use it for comparison.
I'd love to do that if I had a known good distributor.
> Double check all
>the valve lash.
I did that this morning. All intake and exhaust valves are now set to
.006". Engine was "overnight cold" when I did that.
> Nail down the inaccuracies in the new pulley and make
>definitive marks on it as to where the various timing marks need to be
>(TDC, idle advance, full advance-those are the only ones you need to
>know anyway.)
I've done that now and am 100% confident in my timing marks on it.
>
>You don't want to burn up an engine. Learn from the mistakes Chris
>admits to making!:~)
You're damn right I don't. I'd never hear the end of it from family
and friends. :-)
Jan Andersson
Another "close enough" way of determining TDC for #1 cylinder is to look
at the keyway at the end of the crank.
You need to remove the pulley bolt first to see it. When #1 is at TDC,
the keyway points precisely to the left, perfectly horizontal.
Jan
Jan Andersson
Shaggie, if you want help tweaking that 009 let me know. I'll get one in
my hand and show you the basics on webcam. I have a brand new one
sitting around in a box.
Jan
Jan Andersson
>
> Hi Jan
>
> While I bow to your superior race engine experience :-) ,
Heh. When you have broken as many engines as I / We have, you are bound
to know what's not "good enough" or "great idea"... LOL Most of what I
know is due to breaking something when we pushed it too far beyond it's
intended stress range in one way or another :)
Sure, there have also been plain acts of stupidity too but I'll keep
those to myself ;)
Jan
Shag
<bug...@rocketcom.mail> wrote:
>
>Shaggie, if you want help tweaking that 009 let me know. I'll get one in
>my hand and show you the basics on webcam. I have a brand new one
>sitting around in a box.
>
>
>Jan
Sounds kinky. :-) Thanks for the offer, but I decided to go ahead
and actually stop for the day. We're going over to a "NASCAR party"
in a little bit. Just took a shower and filled a cooler up with beer
on ice. My wife would kill me if I started taking apart engine parts
right now. :-) Air conditioner is not working enough to bother
running it. Called the repair dude and they're only open
Monday-Friday so I grabbed the shop fan and brought it inside and have
it blasting on me right now. I think if I sip a few ice cold beers
then the combination of that and the fan may be enough to keep me
cool. I'll let you know. :-D
John Willis
scribbled this interesting note:
> Air conditioner is not working enough to bother
>running it. Called the repair dude and they're only open
>Monday-Friday so I grabbed the shop fan and brought it inside and have
>it blasting on me right now. I think if I sip a few ice cold beers
>then the combination of that and the fan may be enough to keep me
>cool. I'll let you know. :-D
You know how we all hate it when you lose your cool!:~)
tricky
I have a type 4 with a BIG rattle, and a type 1 with a little rattle
that is getting bigger !
As my collection of Vdubs grows I have just swapped 'bad' engines with
'OK' ones !
soon I will rebiuldd my 1st, and hopefully learn alot.
Till then I can just offer what I have learned so far :-)
Rich
Jan Andersson
Expect to see a full report with photos on my desk first thing in the
morning. DiiiisMISSSed!
:)
Jan
tricky
Rich
Joey Tribiani
"tricky" <Tri...@handmade-f9.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Qsqhe.6678$hn5...@newsfe2-win.ntli.net...
> Hi Jan
>
> While I bow to your superior race engine experience :-) , I was just
> trying to provide an aproximate, and easy, way to find TDC on a 'stock'
> engine, where a degree either way is a good starting point !
>
> I do like the bolt idea, and will have to try it ! :-) . This is a new
> idea I have learn't from ramva .
>
> Rich
Rich, you are correct in your statement above...but(yeah there's always one)
shaggie wasn't trying to get "close enough", he was looking to test the
accuracy of his pulley degree markings....and a degree or two can cost you
an engine believe it or not....
Joey Tribiani
"John Willis" <jdwill...@airmail.net> wrote in message
> You don't want to burn up an engine. Learn from the mistakes Chris
> admits to making!:~)
>
>
hell yeah....i wouldn't admit some things i have done if i didn't think it
would help others *not* make those mistakes....i didn't have RAMVA or
anything of the sort, so i broke alot of stuff and madea few mistakes,
based on the good info the magazines put out back in the late 80's...
Jan Andersson
Ahh, magazines.. the holy books of infinite wisdom :)
Jan
Joey Tribiani
"Jan Andersson" <bug...@rocketcom.mail> wrote in message
> Ahh, magazines.. the holy books of infinite wisdom :)
>
> Jan
but Jan, the *did* teach me alot back then..unfortunately they can be very
expensive lessons...heh...
John Willis
scribbled this interesting note:
>
Those tend to be the ones learned best and forgotten last...
Jan Andersson
LOL important and effective lesson nonetheless ;)
Jan