Too much oil?
David E. Nash
The shop that rebuilt my engine has twice put in a bit too much oil.
They mechanic says that it isn't a problem, but I have a small leak (two
inch drip spot whenever I park). The dipstick shows about 10mm over the
full line. I finally got Muir's book and he states emphatically that
overfilling is a no-no! Should I go back to the shop and raise hell? Or
is it really no big deal?
Thanks
David
Looking for Mimi Bratt from High Point College ("71-"74)
David E. Nash
dn...@atlanta.com
Chris Allen
On Jul 22, 1996 06:30:25 in article <Too much oil?>, '"David E. Nash"
Yes. Go to the shop and raise holy hell. Then, NEVER go back to that
place again. You should insist that they replace the crank seal they just
ruined also. Personally, I ALWAYS do my own oil changes. Find a shop that
specializes in VW's.
Chris Allen
Old2Lt
Can you say blown Front Seal?
This is a big deal, and your mechanic should know better. When I was 18
and stupid, I let a 10 minute lube joint change the oil on my 72 SB.
Needless to say, I left the same calling card everywhere I parked
afterward. I eventually got them to pay for the front seal replacement,
but after that I changed the oil myself. Besides, it's so easy in a VW
that it's hard to justify the expense of having someone else do it.
John Duncan
Old...@aol.com
Chris Allen
On Jul 22, 1996 17:50:12 in article <Re: Too much oil?>, 'old...@aol.com
I had the same experience once myself. There is some guy from AOL that
swears that this is not possible. I have yet to find someone else echo his
opinion.
Chris Allen
Trieste LaPorte
David E. Nash (dn...@atlanta.com) wrote:
: The shop that rebuilt my engine has twice put in a bit too much oil.
: They mechanic says that it isn't a problem, but I have a small leak (two
: inch drip spot whenever I park). The dipstick shows about 10mm over the
: full line. I finally got Muir's book and he states emphatically that
: overfilling is a no-no! Should I go back to the shop and raise hell? Or
: is it really no big deal?
: Thanks
: David
: Looking for Mimi Bratt from High Point College ("71-"74)
: David E. Nash
: dn...@atlanta.com
Akkkkkk! It seems I've JUST done the same thing, only, worse... I've done
it myself! is it a sure thing that the front seal is wasted? If so, how
hard is it to replace yourself.. Anyone? It happened as I was filling the
oil and was whistling a song not paying attention. Opps. What are the
symptoms of blown front seals anyways? Would my car be backfiring while
decelerating by any chance? Thanks.
--
-- Trieste LaPorte
I'm Italian, that's my excuse.
P.S. I'd appreciate it if everyonme screamed at me and called me an idiot
so I won't do something that stoupud<sp?> ever again.
robert cope
In article <4t1s75$j...@nadine.teleport.com>, coma...@teleport.com (Trieste LaPorte) wrote:
>Akkkkkk! It seems I've JUST done the same thing, only, worse... I've done
>it myself! is it a sure thing that the front seal is wasted? If so, how
>hard is it to replace yourself.. Anyone? It happened as I was filling the
>oil and was whistling a song not paying attention. Opps. What are the
>symptoms of blown front seals anyways? Would my car be backfiring while
>decelerating by any chance? Thanks.
More than likely a little extra oil won't do anything to the front seal. A
blown front seal will just leak oil down onto the clutch and out. It isn't
hard to replace by yourself if you can pull the motor and pull the flywheel
off.
robert
RACEWARE1
Well, this is the guy from AOL, and as I said, if you understand how the
VW engine is designed you too would understand that overfilling the oil a
small amount as opposed to a gallon over, it's not possible for the rear,
(flywheel) seal to leak.
Briefly, the pressurized oil to the rear main bearing, flows thru the
bearing runs down both sides of the flange to lube the thrust surfaces of
the bearing and the steel shims between the bearing and the flywheel. Then
the oil on the flywheel side of the bearing drips back into the inside of
the engine case thru a drilled hole just below the rear bearing. The seal
keeps oil splash from passing out the back of the engine and onto the
clutch/flywheel assembly.
Now for an overfill to cause the rear seal to leak, it would need to block
the oil return hole in the back of the engine, below the rear main
bearing. Unless you substantially overfill the engine by say a gallon or
so, you have about six inches of engine height that would need to be
filled with oil, including 1/2 the height of all the cylinders. Basically
the engine would hydraulicize and not even turn completely over.
If you understand this brief explanation, then it should be clear that if
the seal is in proper condition, a pint or so overfill of oil, ain't gonna
cause a rear flywheel seal leak. Been there, done that. Believe what you
want but this is the staight scoop.
On the 'Bahn,
Randy, a.k.a. BoltMeister
John Willis
"David E. Nash" <dn...@atlanta.com> wrote:
>The shop that rebuilt my engine has twice put in a bit too much oil.
>They mechanic says that it isn't a problem, but I have a small leak (two
>inch drip spot whenever I park). The dipstick shows about 10mm over the
>full line. I finally got Muir's book and he states emphatically that
>overfilling is a no-no! Should I go back to the shop and raise hell? Or
>is it really no big deal?
>Thanks
>David
Raise Hell! Raise Hell! No more than 2.6 quarts! VVEERRYY
Important!
John.
Buddy
RACEWARE1 wrote:
>
> With all due respect, someone who is certain of the design and operation
> of the VW engine, and who believes this seal leak issue, want to explain
> how you came to the conclusion that overfilling the oil by a pint or so,
> will cause the seal leak to occur. I'm looking for an accurate
> design/operation explanation not "it happened to me" scenarios.
>
> No flames intended, I just want to know how you reached your conclusion,
> and if you REALLY understand how the VW Beetle engine is designed.
>
> On the 'Bahn,
>
> Randy, a.k.a. BoltMeister
Agreed. The oil is still open to the atmosphere. How can it generate a
high pressure? The only increase in pressure I can imagine would be due
to the extra oil's weight.
--
/lllllllllll\
(.) (.)
^ Buddy
\___/
Tom Dygert
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.3
In article <4t1s75$j...@nadine.teleport.com>, coma...@teleport.com (Trieste LaPorte) says:
>
>David E. Nash (dn...@atlanta.com) wrote:
>: The shop that rebuilt my engine has twice put in a bit too much oil.
>: They mechanic says that it isn't a problem, but I have a small leak (two
>: inch drip spot whenever I park). The dipstick shows about 10mm over the
>: full line. I finally got Muir's book and he states emphatically that
>: overfilling is a no-no! Should I go back to the shop and raise hell? Or
>: is it really no big deal?
>: Thanks
>: David
>
>: Looking for Mimi Bratt from High Point College ("71-"74)
>: David E. Nash
>: dn...@atlanta.com
>
>Akkkkkk! It seems I've JUST done the same thing, only, worse... I've done
>it myself! is it a sure thing that the front seal is wasted? If so, how
>hard is it to replace yourself.. Anyone? It happened as I was filling the
>oil and was whistling a song not paying attention. Opps. What are the
>symptoms of blown front seals anyways? Would my car be backfiring while
>decelerating by any chance? Thanks.
>
>--
>-- Trieste LaPorte
> I'm Italian, that's my excuse.
>
>P.S. I'd appreciate it if everyonme screamed at me and called me an idiot
>so I won't do something that stoupud<sp?> ever again.
Don't flip out, no big deal. I run mine a little over cause I add some Avblend
to the crankcase. It wont hurt your flywheel/crank seal. Most that it does is
blow it overboard out of the breather. But don't get it so high that it comes
into the piston area.
Tom
Tom
RACEWARE1
jot...@aristotle.net
jdwi...@airmail.net (John Willis) wrote:
>"David E. Nash" <dn...@atlanta.com> wrote:
>>overfilling is a no-no! Should I go back to the shop and raise hell? Or
>>is it really no big deal?
>Raise Hell! Raise Hell! No more than 2.6 quarts! VVEERRYY
>Important!
Overfilling the oil is just begging to blow the seal between the front
of the engine and the clutch. (Generally the weakest seal) If it goes
you'll suddenly have a clutch that won't catch because it is covered
in oil and the only way to fix it is remove the engine clean it and
replace the seal. The mechanic you went to is either an idiot or
trying to boost his business.
Jotsix
Tom Dygert
Randy:
I agree with you, no Big deal. I run my 1641cc about a pint over because
of a additive (AVBLEND) and have never had a problem. Maybe this guy
forgot that the VDub has a breather.
Tom
RACEWARE1
Hi Tom,
I just think there is a lot of bad information reported in magazine and
even books. This gets reported as Gospel, and people end up creating
problems or spending money they shouldn't need too. Hope we've helped a
few with honest engineering info.
Regards,
On the 'Bahn,
Randy, a.k.a. BoltMeister
****Check out VW Interests at HTTP://HOME.AOL.COM/RACEWARE1****
John M. Bilek
First of all, if you understand the VW engine so much, why do you keep
calling the main seal "the rear seal?" Secondly, you said that you
don't want "it happened to me" scenarios, but most of the VW experience
is exactly that...experience. Because you believe it isn't supposed to
happen, that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Why are you the only
one who says this doesn't happen anyway?
Johnny
'62 Bug
'68 Sunroof Bug
john...@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~johnnyvw/
RACEWARE1 wrote:
>
> With all due respect, someone who is certain of the design and operation
> of the VW engine, and who believes this seal leak issue, want to explain
> how you came to the conclusion that overfilling the oil by a pint or so,
> will cause the seal leak to occur. I'm looking for an accurate
> design/operation explanation not "it happened to me" scenarios.
>
> No flames intended, I just want to know how you reached your conclusion,
> and if you REALLY understand how the VW Beetle engine is designed.
>
robert cope
In article <31F9FA...@earthlink.net>, john...@earthlink.net wrote:
>First of all, if you understand the VW engine so much, why do you keep
>calling the main seal "the rear seal?" Secondly, you said that you
>don't want "it happened to me" scenarios, but most of the VW experience
>is exactly that...experience. Because you believe it isn't supposed to
>happen, that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Why are you the only
>one who says this doesn't happen anyway?
A little extra oil isn't going to hurt anything.
robert
RACEWARE1
Hi Johnny,
First off, you need to understand I am an automotive engine design
engineer, and have designed engines for the car companies and professional
race teams for over 25 years. I have actually redesigned a number of VW
and Porsche engines for motorsport use and designed many of the engines
that are used in todays new cars built around the World.
I happen to be partial to the VW/Audi/Porsche Marques, and have
redesigned, modified, and raced these vehicles for many years,
establishing National and World Records. I am still active with VW
Motorsports and work with the engineers in Germany at VW & Porsche.
The reason I call the rear seal, the rear seal, is because thats's what it
is. In automotive design and engineering, (around the World), the flywheel
end of the engine is considered the "rear" part of the engine as that is
where the power is taken from. Many of the "hotrod" magazines or service
manuals that are written by journalist, not engineers, often label things
incorrectly because these people do not work in the automotive industry on
a daily basis. They are journalist first, enthusiasts second, and
occasionally technicians. I realize this may be confusing to those of you
who are use to reading the magazines, but the rear seal IS the real seal
as far as automotive designers and engineers are concerned. With the Type
1 being rear engine, and the engine being installed reversed from a front
engine, I think the journalist are referring to the seal as the "front"
seal because it's towards the front of the car, but actually it's at the
"rear" of the engine, as the crank pully is at the "front" of the engine.
As far as the seal leak issue, it isn't that I don't believe is shouldn't
happen, I have personal experience with this and BY DESIGN it won't
happen. I have built hundreds of VW engines of all kinds, Type 1,2,3 & 4
plus Porsche 356 & 911, and hundreds of race and prototype engines. This
IS what I do for a living, and I did race these engines for close to 20
years. Overfiling the Type 1 engine by a pint or so will NOT cause the
rear seal to leak. On new engine rebuilds we ALWAYS installed the full 3
qts. of oil, as new rings allow some oil to be consumed while they seat
in. We NEVER had rear seal leaks on our engines, NEVER.
As you can see from a few others who have posted, they too have overfilled
their engines and not experienced the rear seal leak. If your seal is worn
it will leak regardless of rather you overfill the oil or not. Hope this
helps you understand the subject more clearly so you can get the best
performance and reliability from your VW.
On the 'Bahn,
Randy, a.k.a. BoltMeister
****Check out VW Interests at HTTP://HOME.AOL.COM/RACEWARE1****
\
Douglas
race...@aol.com (RACEWARE1) wrote:
>>Hi Johnny,
That's funny. VW calls the flywheel end of the engine the
*FRONT*.
But hay, what the hell do they know?
>>As you can see from a few others who have posted, they too have overfilled
>>their engines and not experienced the rear seal leak. If your seal is worn
>>it will leak regardless of rather you overfill the oil or not. Hope this
>>helps you understand the subject more clearly so you can get the best
>>performance and reliability from your VW.
>>On the 'Bahn,
>>Randy, a.k.a. BoltMeister
>>****Check out VW Interests at HTTP://HOME.AOL.COM/RACEWARE1****
>>\
Respectfully,
Douglas
"He who knows he knows, knows nothing.
He who knows he knows nothing, really knows."
Spooky Tooth
RACEWARE1
Hi Douglas,
Call it what YOU want, it really doesn't matter to me. I'm trying to help
people online who want to be well informed and get the best enjoyment and
performance from their VW.
The original discussion was about this seal leaking if you slightly
overfill the oil. The overfill issue along with the term "front" seal, are
typical examples of mis-information that is perpetrated by people who are
trying to help, but that do not have complete information on the subject.
I've provided accurate design and operational information that should
clarify this subject for those who care to learn.
The engineers I work with at VW/Porsche and in the entire automotive
industry call it the "rear" main bearing seal or flywheel seal. You can
call it whatever you like.
As we say in the engineering community: "There is no sugery in the World
that will open a closed mind..."
Have a nice day!
RACEWARE1
Hi John,
There is no magic to the 2.6 or 2.7 qt. oil number. That just happens to
be the correct amount of oil to fill the engine to the full mark. I don't
know if in the 1930's when they started to design this engine, if they
sold oil in a different size container than liters or something, but I
don't think it matters. Even some of the newer VWs do not use exactly 4
qts. or 5 qts. of oil. In countries that use the metric system, it doesn't
always work out exact either.
Sometimes a design capacity is more a function of engine packaging and
production requirements. I know this may sound strange, but when you see
the compromises and considerations that must occur for mass production and
cost efficiency, it is a BIG challenge to produce quality products cost
effectively.
On the 'Bahn,
Randy, a.k.a. BoltMeister
****Check out VW Interests at HTTP://HOME.AOL.COM/RACEWARE1****
John Willis
Hi,
Just a question. I understand what you are saying. Why then does the
manual specifically say 2.6 quarts? Is that merely an arbitrary
number, an average of some sort? Or is there a design reason why
those engineers specified 2.6 instead of 2.5 or 3.0?
I really am interested in knowing why and if you could help it would
be much appreciated.
Thanks!
John Willis
RD Rick
In <31F9FA...@earthlink.net> "John M. Bilek"
<john...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>First of all, if you understand the VW engine so much, why do you keep
>calling the main seal "the rear seal?" Secondly, you said that you
>don't want "it happened to me" scenarios, but most of the VW
experience>is exactly that...experience. Because you believe it isn't
supposed to>happen, that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Why are
you the only>one who says this doesn't happen anyway?
My son has overfilled my aircooled vanagon by over a quart, more than
once, with no apparent ill effects. FWIW
RD
>john...@earthlink.net
>http://home.earthlink.net/~johnnyvw/
>
>
>RACEWARE1 wrote:
>>
>> With all due respect, someone who is certain of the design and
operation
>> of the VW engine, and who believes this seal leak issue, want to
explain
>> how you came to the conclusion that overfilling the oil by a pint or
so,
>> will cause the seal leak to occur. I'm looking for an accurate
>> design/operation explanation not "it happened to me" scenarios.
>>
>> No flames intended, I just want to know how you reached your
conclusion,
>> and if you REALLY understand how the VW Beetle engine is designed.
>>
Jeffry Johnston
: Just a question. I understand what you are saying. Why then does the
: manual specifically say 2.6 quarts? Is that merely an arbitrary
: number, an average of some sort? Or is there a design reason why
: those engineers specified 2.6 instead of 2.5 or 3.0?
: John Willis
What model and year is this? My "owners manual" and everything VW I've
ever read said 2.5 liters or 5.3 pints US. The after market service
manuals say 2.8 quarts US.
Every time I've replaced the oil it got 3.0 quarts US and it reads about
an eighth of an inch above the full mark when you have the right dip stick
for that engine. If it's too much oh well too bad. :-)
Alvin Johnston <--Libertarian
Valerian Leigh
Yeah!
I got my '65 40-horse from a guy who'd been filling it with 5 and a
half quarts of Pennzoil (worst oil on the market?). I never had any
problems with my front (i.e. flywheel) seal.
Experience speaks.
Peace,
V.
Valerian Leigh
Your link is a dud.
John Willis
jef...@azstarnet.com (Jeffry Johnston) wrote:
>Alvin Johnston <--Libertarian
Alvin,
I am refering to the factory manual for late sixties Bugs and Ghias.
And yes, it won't hurt the engine to be slightly overfull, just as it
won't hurt it to be slightly underfull, but I still think it is best
to go with the 'compromises' full scale production designs demand. It
is what the design was manufactured for and it is what is recommended,
since there is a reason those designers made the decisions they did.
John.
Daisy
: >Akkkkkk! It seems I've JUST done the same thing, only, worse... I've done
: >it myself! is it a sure thing that the front seal is wasted? If so, how
: >hard is it to replace yourself.. Anyone? It happened as I was filling the
: >oil and was whistling a song not paying attention. Opps. What are the
: >symptoms of blown front seals anyways? Would my car be backfiring while
: >decelerating by any chance? Thanks.
: Don't flip out, no big deal. I run mine a little over cause I add some Avblend
: to the crankcase. It wont hurt your flywheel/crank seal. Most that it does is
: blow it overboard out of the breather. But don't get it so high that it comes
: into the piston area.
I did the same thing after an oil change. The manual I had said "BAAD BAd move
d00d!" I bricked myself.
No problem, got myself some 4mm bore plastic tubing, stuck it down the dipstick
tube and siphoned a pint of oil out.
One point though... I thought bugs were *supposed* to lose a little oil all
the time (got an oil bath filter and that). I've done 3000 miles since the
oil change, and the level is *exactly* the same as it was.
hmm.
Chris
Dinggus
On 23 Jul 1996 06:41:41 GMT, coma...@teleport.com (Trieste LaPorte)
wrote:
>Akkkkkk! It seems I've JUST done the same thing, only, worse... I've done
>it myself! is it a sure thing that the front seal is wasted? If so, how
>hard is it to replace yourself.. Anyone? It happened as I was filling the
>oil and was whistling a song not paying attention. Opps. What are the
>symptoms of blown front seals anyways? Would my car be backfiring while
>decelerating by any chance? Thanks.
The only thing hard about replacing your front seal is removing your
flywheel, which is only hard if you don't have a flywheel lock and a
36mm socket. I couldnt afford the 36mm socket and flywheel lock so I
took my engine to a shop to pull the flywheel put a new seal in and
install the flywheel. The flywheel should be torqued to 220 ft. lbs.
I brought my engine home, put it in my bus and drove away. about a
week later I was driving at about 60mph when I heard an awful noise
from my motor, I slowed and tried to downshift but I couldnt shift.
The motor died and would not turn over again.
The next day I pulled my motor and found that the mechanic had not
tightened the flywheel nut enough and the flywheel had come off! Talk
about pissed! The shop ended up fixing it for free and being cool.
MAKE SURE THE FLYWHEEL BUT IS TIGHT!! 220 ft. lbs.!
Jeffry Johnston
: The only thing hard about replacing your front seal is removing your
: flywheel, which is only hard if you don't have a flywheel lock and a
: 36mm socket.
I have a flywheel lock, but I don't use it to tighten the flywheel nut.
I have a piece of angle iron that I drilled holes in that I bolt to the
flywheel and then tighten the nut with a combination wrench.
1 and 7/16ths for 36mm nuts and a 1 and 5/8ths for 41mm nuts.
My angle iron is a piece of bed frame which is heat treated medium carbon
steel, just like what wrenches are made from.
(tork wrench? we dohn need no steen keen tork wrench)
Alvin Johnston <--Libertarian
ml...@scvnet.com
More immediate experience:
My wife got into our bug this morning to start it up. We just got home
from a 3-week vacation so the bug had been sitting. Unknown to her, the
carb float had been leaking and the crankcase was filled with gas. Well,
the bug didn't run so well, what with liquid gas being shot through the
breather into the air cleaner. She shut it down and came after me. I
came out and observed the stream of really thin oil running down the
driveway. I was hoping that it had just been pumped out the windage
tube, but after refilling with fresh oil I observed a stream of oil
coming off of the flywheel end of the engine.
Guess what I'm going to be doing tomorrow :-/
Moral: Don't park it pointing uphill for a long time with a full fuel
tank (I'm putting on a fuel valve, since this parking position is
required in our driveway)
Second Moral: If you _really_ overfill the crankcase (I drained 6
quarts, not counting that which decorated the concrete) it _will_ push
out the front seal!
Oh well, the engine was getting a bit tired anyway...
George Lyle
ml...@scvnet.com
race...@aol.com (RACEWARE1) wrote:
>Hi John,
>
>There is no magic to the 2.6 or 2.7 qt. oil number. That just happens to
>be the correct amount of oil to fill the engine to the full mark. I don't
>know if in the 1930's when they started to design this engine, if they
>sold oil in a different size container than liters or something,
Germany used liters then, which explains why the "round" 2.5 l spec was
used. My feeling is that they had a good idea of the oil level that they
wanted in the crankcase and just picked the nearest 0.5-or-so liter
amount that was sufficient for the engine's needs.
> but I
>don't think it matters. Even some of the newer VWs do not use exactly 4
>qts. or 5 qts. of oil. In countries that use the metric system, it doesn't
>always work out exact either.
Some manufacturers change the size of the oil filter to adjust the level
in the crankcase. This is probably why the specified filter for my
monster 454 GMC is only about 4 inches long. A standard size GM filter
fits fine, but then it takes 5.5 quarts to reach the full mark on the
dipstick. The cost of the extra oil is more than made up for by the
cheaper cost of the standard-size filter!
George
Tony Pecorella
Guys,
The odd amount of oil that is added to the crankcase is due to the fact
that the air cleaner took the difference!
Tony