What weight oil for cooler temperatures?
Jim Ed
What weight oil do you recommend in a stock Type I with outside
temperatures ranging from
42 to 68 degrees F
or
5.55 to 20 degrees Celsius ?
This vehicle is used mostly for short 3 mile trips, to the grocery
store usually once a week, going about 35 miles per hour/ 56.3
kilometers per hour.
Several old timers keep telling me to keep using straight 30HD in it.
Thanks in advance!
Rusty Shackelford
low end temperatures are nearly cool enough for a 0w20 or 5w20. The
only thing that even makes me slightly consider it is the fact that you
say you take short trips under 35mph. However, even if your car does
normally take short trips there is always the chance you'll need to take
it on the road for longer trips at higher speeds. Therefore, I'll stick
with the 5w30 or 10w30 recommendation.
If your car has a full flow filtration system I'd think seriously
about running one of the lower priced synthetics, say Pennzoil Platinum
which can be found on sale at some really great prices. Pennzoil
Platinum is a highly refined Group III (hydrocracked/hydroformed) oil
that sticklers will contend is not a true synthetic (which is true since
it does start with crude oil) but these modern Group III's give you 90%
of the advantages of a full synthetic (Group IV or V) at a substantial
savings in cost. Since the Type 1 motor has a vented crankcase you
really can't go with the extended change intervals that a full synthetic
will run even with a real oil filter in the system. If you don't have a
full flow filtration system I'd probably stick with a good conventional
oil such as Pennzoil in the yellow bottle and go with 2k to 3k mile oil
change intervals.
There is absolutely no rational today for using a straight weight
oil. Modern multi-viscosity oils are vastly superior to the straight
30wt oils that were in common use when these cars were new. If I'm not
mistaken even Muir in his "idiot book" recommends multi-viscosity oils
and the multi-vis oils available today are vastly improved from the
muti-vis oils that were available in the late 1960s/early 1970s when he
wrote his book.
Rusty Shackelford
in cool weather is a sure way to build up moisture in the crankcase no
matter what type of oil you use. One of the products of hydrocarbon
combustion is water vapor. The water vapor from combustion will find
it's way into the crankcase. A three mile trip (especially in cool
weather) is not long enough to bring the engine and oil up to
temperature such that the water will be driven off. Every short trip
you'll build up a little more moisture which will condense in the
crankcase. After a month of these short trips I expect that if you take
the oil filler cap off you'll see a creamy, frothy foam on the bottom of
the cap. This an emulsion of oil and water caused by these short trips
not getting the engine up to operating temperature. This moisture will
promote corrosion of internal engine parts and it can compromise the
lubricating ability of the oil. You really need to periodically (say
every other outing) run the car long enough to get the engine and oil
good and hot.
Jim Ed
> the oil filler cap off you'll see a creamy, frothy foam on the bottom of
> the cap. This an emulsion of oil and water caused by these short trips
> not getting the engine up to operating temperature. This moisture will
> promote corrosion of internal engine parts and it can compromise the
> lubricating ability of the oil. You really need to periodically (say
> every other outing) run the car long enough to get the engine and oil
> good and hot.
It used to make the creamy, frothy foam on the bottom of
the oil cap when I was using a 1.5 quart bolt on oil sump.
But, it hardly ever does that.
Would it be OK to drive it around the block until it idles at 900 rpm
and then let it sit and idle on the driveway to let it warm up before
driving it?
...thanks again!
Max
isn't working hard enough.
The flaps and thermostat help the heads warm up, but don't really do
much for the oil. Might be different for a non-doghouse engine.
Better to take it for a nice 30-minute drive where you can put some
load on it.
Max
P.J.Berg
The aircooled Vw engine should not be left idling when cold at all..
Drive away after after 30 sec or so and drive it a modest load and revs
until warm.
This is per factory recommendations.
I Have original Owners manuals from 1954, Aug.-66 and Aug.-72. They all
list single-grade oils.
If you choose a 20-30w or 20-40w of decent quality you are good to go.
Originally listed is:
Tropical areas:
Hot season: SAE 40
Cold season: SAE 30
Moderate climates:
Summer: SAE 30
Winter down to -15 Celsius: SAE 20w-20
Winter down to -25 Celsius: SAE 10w*
Winter with temp. sustained below -25 Celsius use SAE 5w.
*: Avoid long trips at high speed using SAE 10w above -10 Celsius and SAE
5w above -20 Celsius.
Cut, paste and save.
J.
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Joey Tribiani
"P.J.Berg" <Berg...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:op.u2hpz...@cm-84.208.86.10.getinternet.no...
use as a guide, maybe, but not gospel... the newest information you have is
based on what was available 37 years ago.
Jim Ed
> After a month of these short trips I expect that if you take
>
> > the oil filler cap off you'll see a creamy, frothy foam on the bottom of
> > the cap. This an emulsion of oil and water caused by these short trips
Soon, I will change over to Castrol 10 W30 for the cooler weather.
....thanks again!
----------------------------------------------------------
P.J.Berg
Not gospel, hence personal advice of 20-30w and 20-40w.
Merely listing the original recommendations.
Joey Tribiani
"P.J.Berg" <Berg...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> Not gospel, hence personal advice of 20-30w and 20-40w.
> Merely listing the original recommendations.
I understand that they are the original specs, just throwing it out there
that oil technology has improved a little over the decades for those that
may take the factory specifications(at time of manufacture) as gospel...
P.J.Berg
There is another often(always?) overlooked issue with modern oil in an
aircooled Vw engine.
The single-grade oils where formulated to not keep contaminants/debris
suspended in the oil, but to allow them to sink to the bottom of the sump.
This should be considered when running a stock setup without an oilfilter.
A modern oil will keep contaminants/debris suspended to be filtered of by
the oilfilter, which you don't have on a stock engine..
If you look into tech manuals for the Citroën 2CV this is clearly lined
out as the engine at a certain stage where fitted with an oilfilter, and
they list different oils before/after this change.
So in short, a stock Vw aircooled engine will se more wear running a
modern detergent oil..
Tony W
> There is another often(always?) overlooked issue with modern oil in an
> aircooled Vw engine.
>
> The single-grade oils where formulated to not keep contaminants/debris
> suspended in the oil, but to allow them to sink to the bottom of the sump.
> This should be considered when running a stock setup without an oilfilter.
>
> A modern oil will keep contaminants/debris suspended to be filtered of
> by the oilfilter, which you don't have on a stock engine..
>
> If you look into tech manuals for the Citroën 2CV this is clearly lined
> out as the engine at a certain stage where fitted with an oilfilter, and
> they list different oils before/after this change.
>
> So in short, a stock Vw aircooled engine will se more wear running a
> modern detergent oil..
>
> J.
Not at all correct. All grades of oil started adding detergent in the
1950s and only non-detergent oils do not suspend contaminants. None of
my VW books recommend non-detergent oil not even the often wrong idiots
guide.
Tony
P.J.Berg
The term detergent was wrongly used, yes. But I had already hit Send..
The bit about suspension of contaminants and debris is very much correct
though.
Jørn
Bill
Flat tappet motors need lots of zinc (ZDDP) for anti-wear properties.
The latest oils must be formulated to take into account cat.
converters and have significantly lower levels of these additives.
I have been around Porsche 4 cyl motors for over 40 years. Most guys
I know only use a straight 30 HDEO in these engines, since the big-rig
diesel motors still require these additives and don't have to contend
with cat convtrs. Shell Rotella 30 or the Chevron equiv. are good
HDEO's, and are dirt cheap at WalMart.
Also, I realize that the latest craze is to go to ultra low-vis.
oils. Fine if you have a modern engine, but I'd stick with the oil
that was around when the VW/Porsche motors were designed. The oil is
so cheap that you can change it at very short intervals.
P.J.Berg
Yes, I know all about the Zink bit.
The Diesel single grade(or multi grades for that matter) oils are the best
bit for the aircooleds these days, unless you go with Rabys findings and
his local/small producer.
Cant remember the name now, the info can be found on his pages.
Returning to the matter of flat tappets,(which are not flat..) a well
broken-in engine will not suffer cam failures because of lack of zink. The
tappets and cam have been hardened over so many years..
It applies to new engines built with a new cam and followers.
I would still go with a single grade oil as these are less prone(these
days according to some) to suspend contaminants and debris.
Must admit I ran my engines on new formula oils myself before being made
aware of the non filter vs. filter and suspension of contaminates.
To cut short, non stock setup with filter you can use whatever type(not
weight) you want, non filtered, go with tractor type oils.
There is a reason for the large oil drain plate and screen at the bottom
of aircooleds.
J.
Rusty Shackelford
> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 06:01:53 +0100, Joey Tribiani <Jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> "P.J.Berg" <Berg...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:op.u2hrn...@cm-84.208.86.10.getinternet.no...
>> > Not gospel, hence personal advice of 20-30w and 20-40w.
>>> Merely listing the original recommendations.
>>
>> I understand that they are the original specs, just throwing it out there
>> that oil technology has improved a little over the decades for those that
>> may take the factory specifications(at time of manufacture) as gospel...
>>
>>
>
> There is another often(always?) overlooked issue with modern oil in an
> aircooled Vw engine.
>
> The single-grade oils where formulated to not keep contaminants/debris
> suspended in the oil, but to allow them to sink to the bottom of the sump.
> This should be considered when running a stock setup without an oilfilter.
>
> A modern oil will keep contaminants/debris suspended to be filtered of
> by the oilfilter, which you don't have on a stock engine..
>
> they list different oils before/after this change.
>
> So in short, a stock Vw aircooled engine will se more wear running a
> modern detergent oil..
>
> J.
>
VW seems to have disagreed with this point of view.
From the 1965 Type 1 Owner's Manual (page 36):
HD oils are prescribed for the engine lubrication. HD oil is an oil
with proven oxidation stability, bearing corrosion preventive properties
and detergent-dispersant characteristics which tend to hold in
suspension foreign contaminates which would normally deposit on engine
parts. These foreign contaminates will drain out with the oil at the
periodical oil changes. The detergent properties of HD oil will make the
fresh oil darker after a short time of operation. This is quite natural
and there is no reason whatsoever to change the oil earlier than called
for in the Lubrication Chart.
Jim Ed
I used Castrol 10 w30.
When I removed the sump plate, four of the six small studs came out.
The holes are not stripped, the studs just came out with the nuts on
the ends.
I plan to get a new set of these studs, well at least 5, and red
Loctite them in on the next oil change.
By-the-way, I read somewhere that the zinc additive is mainly
necessary for use with high revving performance engines.
...thanks again!
Joey Tribiani
"Bill" <wfb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b6198dc3-7982-4343...@b3g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
> Also, I realize that the latest craze is to go to ultra low-vis.
> oils. Fine if you have a modern engine, but I'd stick with the oil
> that was around when the VW/Porsche motors were designed. The oil is
> so cheap that you can change it at very short intervals.
you can't get the oil that was around back then... you even acknowledged
that in your post.
Joey Tribiani
"Rusty Shackelford" <ru...@arlen.com> wrote in message
news:Sh5Gm.105750$5n1.93664@attbi_s21...
> P.J.Berg wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 06:01:53 +0100, Joey Tribiani <Jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "P.J.Berg" <Berg...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:op.u2hrn...@cm-84.208.86.10.getinternet.no...
>>> > Not gospel, hence personal advice of 20-30w and 20-40w.
>>>> Merely listing the original recommendations.
>>>
>>> I understand that they are the original specs, just throwing it out
>>> there
>>> that oil technology has improved a little over the decades for those
>>> that
>>> may take the factory specifications(at time of manufacture) as gospel...
>>>
>>>
>>
>> There is another often(always?) overlooked issue with modern oil in an
>> aircooled Vw engine.
>>
>> The single-grade oils where formulated to not keep contaminants/debris
>> suspended in the oil, but to allow them to sink to the bottom of the
>> sump.
>> This should be considered when running a stock setup without an
>> oilfilter.
>>
>> A modern oil will keep contaminants/debris suspended to be filtered of by
>> the oilfilter, which you don't have on a stock engine..
>>
>> they list different oils before/after this change.
>>
>> So in short, a stock Vw aircooled engine will se more wear running a
>> modern detergent oil..
>>
>> J.
>>
>
>
> VW seems to have disagreed with this point of view.
>
> From the 1965 Type 1 Owner's Manual (page 36):
>
>
> HD oils are prescribed for the engine lubrication. HD oil is an oil with
> proven oxidation stability, bearing corrosion preventive properties and
> detergent-dispersant characteristics which tend to hold in suspension
> foreign contaminates which would normally deposit on engine parts. These
> foreign contaminates will drain out with the oil at the periodical oil
> changes. The detergent properties of HD oil will make the fresh oil darker
> after a short time of operation. This is quite natural and there is no
> reason whatsoever to change the oil earlier than called for in the
> Lubrication Chart.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/65bug/page36_37.jpg
Bill
> "Bill" <wfbo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
You can come pretty close...30wt HDEO. Again, these motors were
designed when 30 and 40 wts were the norm. Just about all of the
"typical" oils (i.e. Castrol GTX, HD, Valv. Penn, etc.) are nothing
like they were even 5 years ago. Also, my experience with 4 & 6cyl
Porsche motors is that some of the multi visc. oils, when heat cycled
a couple of times in a comparitively high-temp aircooled motor, tends
to revert to it's original state (a 20-50 for example, tends to revert
to a 20 wt, losing a good part of its viscosity additives.)
If you haven't, go to Bob is the Oil Guy . com and check out the
thousands of posts on this specific subject. You'll find that a
substantial number of the posters prefer a very low viscosity
multiweight in a performance, aircooled motor - even under track
conditions. Now look at the cars they list as owning: Saturns, Toyota
pickups, etc. Always easy to give "cutting edge" advice when someone
else is out there picking up pieces of a fragmented motor.
Bottom line is the choice is up to the individual owner. At the risk
of being oldfashioned, I'll stick with a one-piece crankshaft.
Joey Tribiani
>You can come pretty close...30wt HDEO. Again, these motors were
>designed when 30 and 40 wts were the norm. Just about all of the
>"typical" oils (i.e. Castrol GTX, HD, Valv. Penn, etc.) are nothing
>like they were even 5 years ago. Also, my experience with 4 & 6cyl
>Porsche motors is that some of the multi visc. oils, when heat cycled
>a couple of times in a comparitively high-temp aircooled motor, tends
>to revert to it's original state (a 20-50 for example, tends to revert
>to a 20 wt, losing a good part of its viscosity additives.)
>If you haven't, go to Bob is the Oil Guy . com and check out the
>thousands of posts on this specific subject. You'll find that a
>substantial number of the posters prefer a very low viscosity
>multiweight in a performance, aircooled motor - even under track
>conditions. Now look at the cars they list as owning: Saturns, Toyota
>pickups, etc. Always easy to give "cutting edge" advice when someone
>else is out there picking up pieces of a fragmented motor.
>Bottom line is the choice is up to the individual owner. At the risk
>of being oldfashioned, I'll stick with a one-piece crankshaft.
yep, I've always said, folks are only "set in their ways" because it has
"worked" for them... that said, i've run 10-30 castrol in my aircooleds for
many years... and I, too, like my crankshafts in one piece...<G>
Kafe...@aol.com
one is a type one powered John Dear lawn tractor about half done its
to much fun. and riding around on a Motocomp siutcase scooter. This
one was shiped from Japan.
stay tuned for our next exciting episode where we talk about how a 16
yr old hit me on the way to the lake.
Kafe...@aol.com
what I get for typing while bidding for stuff on e-bay
I use castrol diesel oil in my 64 and change it often
Joey Tribiani
<Kafe...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:42d03a22-9cf6-44c7...@t2g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> There just doesn't seem to be a lack of toys for me to play with,
>
of course not, sanding blocks and spreaders come in bulk...