Endplay shims dialogue...
Richard Troy
...Wasn't somebody going to tell us all why we have to have three shims?
I seem to recall the word "MUST" being used, with a promise that if we
asked, we'd learn the REAL reason for using 3 shims...
...I thought that would be something good to know - with certainty and
information instead of myth... After all, MY suggestion about this was
just me trying to use my head and not "The Gospel According to Luke"...
so it's still in the "myth" category until the unwashed masses hear the
sermon from on high...
...OK, I'm pushing a little - maybe a lot... but it was a good dialogue
to have... I'd like to see it concluded...
Anyone?
The Q: Why "must" we use three crankshaft end-play shims?
("Because VW says so," is not a valid answer here...)
RT
--
Richard Troy, President
The Karmann Ghia Club of North America
4200 Park Blvd, #151, Oakland, CA, 94602
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Ian G Cook
Hi, all.
Really interested in this one. My Type II van has about 2 - 3 mm of
crankshaft float (endplay) and I thought I might take it up by adding
shims when I replace the oil seal.
But my manual says 3 shims only, which will allow only about 1mm of play
to be taken up. Anybody tried this? How important is the endplay (my
book says between 0.07 and 0.13mm)?
All comments gratefully received.
Ian
Mark K. Janello
Ian G Cook (iang...@aol.com) wrote:
: Hi, all.
Ian--
Endplay is very important, too much and the bearing area at the flywheel
end will get pounded out, with various bad results. Your crankshaft
is a very heavy and strong piece of forged steel; if it is allowed too
slam back and forth in the engine case, well, you get the idea.
The play is adjusted by using shims of different thickness (any
good VW shop or mailorder place will have them). This thread is about
whether EXACTLY 3 shims is necessary. I don't have an answer to that,
though I don't think anyone disputes that having the correct endplay is
very important.
Get some thicker shims, they're cheap.
Good luck!
Mark
'62 Kombi
MgSCA
You don`t have to use three shims. the reason for three is so that you
will have sufficient cooling between the shims and the flywheel and #1
main bearing. the oil creates a film between EACH shim and dissapates heat
that would otherwise be transfered to the crank and bearings.
John Connolly
what is important is that your endplay measurement is
correct, not how many shims you have...
John
--
Richard Troy
Not!
...sorry - this theory is easily countered by pointing out that Porsche
used only ONE shim - a thick one - on the 356-912 engine series which,
by the way, started off with a VW crankcase casting, VW crankshaft with
an extra 4 dowels in the end, and VW main bearings... If your theory
were correct, Porsche surely would not have done this!
Regards,
Ian G Cook
Thanks Guys,
I appreciate your interest and also see that this is quite a hot topic.
Can I state my question in slightly different terms?
I have removed my engine to replace the flywheel oil seal. I notice that I
have about 2mm of endplay on the crank (to be expected as the engine has
about 75,000 miles on it). I would like to know whether I should shim up
the endfloat (would probably take an extra 5-6 shims, making 8 or 9 in
total) when I replace the seal, or leave it with the existing shims and
endplay.
I appreciate that the ideal answer is " your engine is dead, get a new
one", but I don't have the funds/time and, apart from the oil leak and
rattle, the engine seems fine.
Thanks again for your time/advice.
Regards,
Ian.
John Connolly
the only problem I see with your using 8-9 shims is
that when the engine is this worn, when you DO get the endplay
correct, the crank hits the case internally and locks up.. so
you end up having to just live with the massive endplay just so
the thing will turn over... I have seen engines go an
additional 20K miles in this condition... you may as well not
worry about it too much at this point, cause' you need a new
crank and case already anyways...
John
--
Jan Andersson
Ian G Cook wrote:
> I would like to know whether I should shim up
> the endfloat (would probably take an extra 5-6 shims, making 8 or 9 in
> total) when I replace the seal, or leave it with the existing shims and
> endplay.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Ian.
How's this one:
Try to find thicker shims, they come in different thicknesses.
Even your local VW dealer should have them, perhaps not in stock,
but still, they should be available. Or get them from a VW-speed shop.
You will propably be able to reach the desired tolerance with 3 shims,
if you want. Perhaps it takes 4. So use 4.
Jan
John Connolly
There is no valid answer on this one Richard....
use as many shims as it takes.. if you can
achieve the same thickness with less shims, than this is a
stronger way to go... Mech-e s will understand that one..
John
--
Ian G Cook
Thanks Guys,
I will leave it as it is for now and start looking for an engine to
rebuild.
Regards,
Ian
rvan...@neuron.uchc.edu
iang...@aol.com (Ian G Cook) wrote:
>I have removed my engine to replace the flywheel oil seal. I notice that I
>have about 2mm of endplay on the crank (to be expected as the engine has
>about 75,000 miles on it). I would like to know whether I should shim up
>the endfloat (would probably take an extra 5-6 shims, making 8 or 9 in
>total) when I replace the seal, or leave it with the existing shims and
>endplay.
>
>I appreciate that the ideal answer is " your engine is dead, get a new
>one", but I don't have the funds/time and, apart from the oil leak and
>rattle, the engine seems fine.
Ian,
In your attempt to bring the endplay back to spec you might find that you cannot
correct the problem even with the proper shim stack thickness (making the issue
of using >3 shims moot). This is because sometimes the thrust bearing and/or
the magnesium case has been pounded/worn so badly from excessive endplay,
additional shimming will only cause the crank to bind (after shimming to make up
the difference in endplay you'll notice you can't rotate the flywheel).
Buy a cheap dial indicator, measure your exact endplay, and try to make up the
difference with as many shims as it takes--my guess is before you reach the
drastic point of using an additional 3+ etc. shims to correct the endplay the
crank will bind if your bearing surface is that bad.
If you can't afford the rebuild and you find you can't bring the endplay back
to spec without binding, just shim it as best you can (so that it doesn't
bind) and if you have to live a little longer with excessive endplay be prepared
for premature wear on your crank oil seal and another oily clutch (and
eventually a catastrophic breakdown from all that side play on the rods and
additional friction you're creating--you take your chances).
Good luck! (VWs on a budget--sounds familiar!),
Ron
rvan...@neuron.uchc.edu
'71 Westy
John Willis
Richard Troy <rt...@postgres.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>...Wasn't somebody going to tell us all why we have to have three shims?
How does this sound, Richard? A friend of mine and I have been
knocking around this question for a couple of weeks and it seems that
it would be ok to use either one or three shims, but not two or more
than three. Three shims allow you to adjust the endplay, within a
specified variance, but more importantly, they seem to act as a thrust
bearing with each outside shim taking the brunt of the wear and the
inner shim floating in the oil film, so in effect, you have a bearing
in three parts.
Just a thought, let me know if it has any validity.
John Willis
jdwi...@airmail.net