Thermostat--Do I need it?
Shad Laws
Unless it is really cold, the thermostat isn't all that important. It can
help up warm up time, reducing wear and tear a little bit, but not a whole
lot unless you live in the Yukon.
However, the flaps are important. Do you have the flaps in there? And are
they always open? If so, then you can do without the thermostat. But the
flaps help guide air, especially on the left side, and are important.
Shad
GaryK <g...@virtualhosts.net> wrote in message
news:88kq46$1a7$1...@ionews.ionet.net...
> I just realized that all of the linkage and thermostat is missing on my
1600
> single port engine. I just put the fan housing back on, and something was
> amiss. SO, how important is this? Since someone ahead of me was running
> without it, doesn't make it right, should I head to the wrecking yard for
> the linkage and put a new thermostat on? The engine is off of a 1968 bug,
> but the case has dual oil ports.
> I need to stop here, before I put the generator back.
>
> What would I do without RAMVA?
>
>
>
>
dragoneyre
correct airflow to the heads and cylinders. There's no good
reason to run without them on a stock to near stock motor. I
don't know what people do on long strokes, but I imagine that it
would have to be pretty long to warrant leaving off the flaps.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Joe Cali - Next Generation
climates. The engine must reach running temperature and doing it evenly is
very important. There are many different metals, alum. heads, cast iron
cylinders, Mag. or alum. blocks, steel bolts etc. All have different
expansion rates. This adds up to early engine wear, in some climates worst
then others. If you live were it gets cold, like in NY right now, snow and
below freezing the engine will never warm up. Running temp. is very
important or the car will run poorly and waste gas. Even in the summer it
is still important and actually it has been proven with the thermostat in
with full flaps the engine will run cooler..
Joe
.
Shad Laws <s-l...@nwu.edu> wrote in article
<88krv4$41a$1...@news.acns.nwu.edu>...
David Pratt
I couldn't agree more -- the VW engineers knew what they were doing
when they put the thermostat in. Bob Hoover has written a very
emphatic "Sermon" about this -- convinced me to the point that I
dropped the engine in my '73 SB specifically to replace the cooling
vanes and thermostat that some industrious PO had ripped out. Do it!
Joe's right!
- Dave
In article <01be5bb7$15e31920$1b044f0c@joe-s-486>,
--
See "Rob and Dave's Aircooled Volkswagen Pages --
For the Shadetree Mechanic" at
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Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Shad Laws
like the left hand side of the engine will have nice cool cylinders and nice
hot heads - not the way the air was supposed to go. However, I don't think
the thermostat is all that important. Yes, you may save an ounce or two of
wear and tear. So, why don't Porsche's have them? They have 3 liter
engines with 11-blade fans... and no thermostat. If you start your car in
absolutely freezing weather, then use the thermostat. If not, I don't think
it's as important. Don't go ripping them out of the car, but if they're not
there, I wouldn't fork out the cash and time to put it there.
Shad
Joe Cali - Next Generation <NEX...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:01be5bb7$15e31920$1b044f0c@joe-s-486...
GazMP
scary. The longer it takes for you motor to reach 80*C (110ish*F) the more
damage is done. Whether the daytime temp is 2*C or 20*C it still has a long
way to go and a lot of damage will be done all the time you have the flaps
open (no thermostat) or missing as it will take many times longer to get to
80*C than if you had all the bits VW designed.
Would you remove one from a water cooled car? I doubt it.
What do you think you will gain by removing it? Nothing but trouble.
--
Gaz
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** Remove .nospam from address to reply directly from newsgroups **
Alvin NG Boon Kim
GazMP wrote:
>
> Very important, don't listen to people who talk about climates, they are
> scary. The longer it takes for you motor to reach 80*C (110ish*F) the more
> damage is done. Whether the daytime temp is 2*C or 20*C
20°C is a lot 'warmer' to us than 2°C, but to your Bug, it is not even
halfway to heaven which is about 90°C.
> Would you remove one from a water cooled car? I doubt it.
> What do you think you will gain by removing it? Nothing but trouble.
Ask my dad, he removed the thermostat from his H2O car coz he thinks
Singapore is hot enough.... I tried talking to him times, but he brings
out the I'm-your-Dad,-I-know-better stuff... :-(
Alvin.
>
> --
> Gaz
> Ramva index http://www.bug-bits.freeserve.co.uk/ramva/index.htm
> Robot Wars page http://www.bug-bits.freeserve.co.uk/robots/main.htm
> ** Remove .nospam from address to reply directly from newsgroups **
> "GaryK" <g...@virtualhosts.net> wrote in message
> news:88kq46$1a7$1...@ionews.ionet.net...
> > I just realized that all of the linkage and thermostat is missing on my
> 1600
> > single port engine. I just put the fan housing back on, and something was
> > amiss. SO, how important is this? Since someone ahead of me was running
> > without it, doesn't make it right, should I head to the wrecking yard for
> > the linkage and put a new thermostat on? The engine is off of a 1968 bug,
> > but the case has dual oil ports.
> > I need to stop here, before I put the generator back.
> >
> > What would I do without RAMVA?
> >
> >
> >
> >
--
___
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(o\ | /o) is a '70 Beetle.
U-----U Boy, does she Fweem!
GaryK
Monday and see if I can find the linkage and flaps that go with it. You
have convinced me. I will restore this to OEM. I wouldn't have taken it
off in the first place, but someone before me did. I wonder what this is
going to cost me. So far, I am about $100. over what it would have cost me
to buy a rebuilt engine, but the amount of knowledge(?) I am gaining is
worth it. So far have been able to keep the wife from the total cost...She
seems to think that whatever money I put in the VeeDub, she gets the same
amount to spend!!! Imagine that! So far, I have told her I have spent about
$300....
So....if she finds out what I am spending to get this bug OTR, I will be
doubly in debt...
John Willis
wrote:
>I am in 100% full agreement that the flaps are necessary. Otherwise, places
>like the left hand side of the engine will have nice cool cylinders and nice
>hot heads - not the way the air was supposed to go. However, I don't think
>the thermostat is all that important. Yes, you may save an ounce or two of
>wear and tear. So, why don't Porsche's have them? They have 3 liter
>engines with 11-blade fans... and no thermostat. If you start your car in
>absolutely freezing weather, then use the thermostat. If not, I don't think
>it's as important. Don't go ripping them out of the car, but if they're not
>there, I wouldn't fork out the cash and time to put it there.
>
>Shad
>
Re-read what the other posters are saying. A VW engine is not a
Porsche engine. sure they look similar, but it ends there. An ounce
or two of wear and tear, every time you start your engine, over the
course of years of service, adds up to a shortened service life. A
properly assembled VW engine can give 100,000 miles of service or
more, I doubt one put together without the t-stat, taking longer to
warm up to proper operating temperature in ALL climates causing
additional wear EVERY time you start the engine from stone cold, even
with the flaps, will last as long. Remember, VW was (and is) in the
business to make money. If they seriously thought the t-stat was
unnecessary, don't you think they would have left it off to begin with
in order to save that fifty cents up to couple of dollars they spent
on them, per t-stat, over the millions and millions of engines they
imported in the US (can't speak for the rest of the world)? Imagine
what just that one part could have saved them if they left it off, if
it were truly unnecessary.
Yes, you can run an aircooled VW engine without a thermostat. Would I
do it on my own car? No.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Willis
jdwi...@airmail.net
P.J. BERG
J.
--
P.J.Berg
Ph.# +47 22594552
Fax. # +47 22569587
Mob. # +47 98681318
What do you mean you can't hear what I think?
"GaryK" <g...@virtualhosts.net> wrote in message
news:88me9e$a2m$1...@ionews.ionet.net...
Shad Laws
"converted" or whatever you want to call it :-)
Shad
David Pratt <dave...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:88m6uh$ndb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Thanks, Joe!
>
> I couldn't agree more -- the VW engineers knew what they were doing
> when they put the thermostat in. Bob Hoover has written a very
> emphatic "Sermon" about this -- convinced me to the point that I
> dropped the engine in my '73 SB specifically to replace the cooling
> vanes and thermostat that some industrious PO had ripped out. Do it!
> Joe's right!
>
> - Dave
>
> In article <01be5bb7$15e31920$1b044f0c@joe-s-486>,
> > > GaryK <g...@virtualhosts.net> wrote in message
> > > news:88kq46$1a7$1...@ionews.ionet.net...
> > > > I just realized that all of the linkage and thermostat is missing
> on my
> > > 1600
> > > > single port engine. I just put the fan housing back on, and
> something
> > was
> > > > amiss. SO, how important is this? Since someone ahead of me was
> > running
> > > > without it, doesn't make it right, should I head to the wrecking
> yard
> > for
> > > > the linkage and put a new thermostat on? The engine is off of a
> 1968
> > bug,
> > > > but the case has dual oil ports.
> > > > I need to stop here, before I put the generator back.
> > > >
> > > > What would I do without RAMVA?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> --
Veeduber
>"converted" or whatever you want to call it :-)
>
Don't go pointing your finger at me :-)
Blame it on Volkswagen. Or Ford. Or Pratt-Whitney, Boeing and Lycoming.
"Automotive" engineering means anything that moves under its own self-generated
power, be it cars, boats or planes. The common demoninator is the engineering.
A basic tenet of automotive engineering is to insure the powerplant operates
within its most efficient temperature range. There's all sorts of ways to
accomplish that goal. The method Volkswagen used on 22,000,000+ aircooled
vehicles happens to consist of a thermostatic bellows controlling a system of
air vanes.
What you really have to wonder about is the mentality of some self-appointed
expert who comes along and sez ALL of those engineers are wrong, that you can
just throw away all that stuff.
Among the worst examples of this are the VW-specific magazines who use their
bully pulpit to tell their mechanically naive readers they can don't need a
thermostat or air vanes or any of that other stuff.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out who benefits from having
the kiddies roaring around with unreliable, short-lived engines.
-Bob Hoover
S. Madoski
How many more miles can I expect out of an engine with the thermostats? 100,
1000, 10000? If VW engineered everything to be absolutely necessary and didn't
ever overdesign a part, how come my old stock swingaxles (designed to handle 40hp)
hold up so well to the 50% more power I get from my 1600? Can you tell me the
thermal coefficients of expansion of the various alloys in the engine, and their
respective temperatures during the warmup cycle?
Veeduber wrote:
> >I've read Bob's post, and it makes much sense to me... alright, so I'm
> >"converted" or whatever you want to call it :-)
> >
>
> Don't go pointing your finger at me :-)
>
> Blame it on Volkswagen. Or Ford. Or Pratt-Whitney, Boeing and Lycoming.
> "Automotive" engineering means anything that moves under its own self-generated
> power, be it cars, boats or planes. The common demoninator is the engineering.
> A basic tenet of automotive engineering is to insure the powerplant operates
> within its most efficient temperature range.
Isn't the most efficient engine the one in which combustion occurs at the highest
temperature? What does this have to do with the cooling system?
> There's all sorts of ways to
> accomplish that goal. The method Volkswagen used on 22,000,000+ aircooled
> vehicles happens to consist of a thermostatic bellows controlling a system of
> air vanes.
How long have they been using "jackscrews" on MD-80s?? Quite a few of those flying
around too...
> What you really have to wonder about is the mentality of some self-appointed
> expert who comes along and sez ALL of those engineers are wrong, that you can
> just throw away all that stuff.
They were wrong with auto sticks, fuel injection, putting the cooling fan at the
end of the engine (type 3, 4), cable brakes, etc....a lot of scientists and
engineers used to think that the world was flat.
> Among the worst examples of this are the VW-specific magazines who use their
> bully pulpit to tell their mechanically naive readers they can don't need a
> thermostat or air vanes or any of that other stuff.
>
> You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out who benefits from having
> the kiddies roaring around with unreliable, short-lived engines.
The guy who sells the kid a Honda when he gets fed up with the "unreliable" VW?
> -Bob Hoover
Veeduber
> How many more miles can I expect out of an engine with the thermostats?
>100,
>1000, 10000? >>
The highest mileage I've ever seen on a VW engine without a proper cooling
system was about 20,000. Those are the ones that still have their air-vanes.
In the worst case -- several examples -- they got less than 100 miles. In those
cases they had neither air-vanes nor engine compartment seals. Here in
southern California the average service life for stock displacement engines in
bugs, with the vanes and air seals but without a thermostat seems to be eight
to ten thousand.
> If VW engineered everything to be absolutely necessary and
>didn't
>ever overdesign a part, how come my old stock swingaxles (designed to handle
>40hp)
>hold up so well to the 50% more power I get from my 1600?
Trick question, right? :-) Remove your axles and tell me how well it runs.
(Trick answer :-)
> Can you tell me
>the
>thermal coefficients of expansion of the various alloys in the engine, and
>their
>respective temperatures during the warmup cycle?
>
Yes, I can.
>How long have they been using "jackscrews" on MD-80s?? Quite a few of those
>flying
>around too...
>
The Piper 'Cub' also uses a jackscrew to control elevator trim. But neither
the DC-9 nor the Piper 'Cub' has anything to do with the Volkswagen's cooling
system.
The tone of your message implies you're one of those fellows driving around
with a disabled cooling system.
Good luck with it.
-Bob Hoover
Eric and Allison
they stopped making auto sticks, changed the fuel injection, stopped
putting the cooling fan on the end of the engine, quit using cable
brakes (a really long time ago).
what has been found to work, has stayed. the type I has a great track
record when left with all the stock cooling items.
Eric
59 bug
Shad Laws
>
> > How many more miles can I expect out of an engine with the
thermostats?
> >100,
> >1000, 10000? >>
>
> The highest mileage I've ever seen on a VW engine without a proper cooling
> system was about 20,000. Those are the ones that still have their
air-vanes.
> In the worst case -- several examples -- they got less than 100 miles. In
those
> cases they had neither air-vanes nor engine compartment seals. Here in
> southern California the average service life for stock displacement
engines in
> bugs, with the vanes and air seals but without a thermostat seems to be
eight
> to ten thousand.
>
What is average service life? Is this defined as time between tune ups
(should be 3000mi), time between rebuilds, etc.? The life of a VW engine is
much much longer than 8k-10k miles in Southern California with everything
prim and proper except for a held open thermostat.
I don't think I understood exactly what you meant here... :-)
Take care,
Shad
Veeduber
>What is average service life?>
'Service Life' is when the engine is worn out, when it's ready for an overhaul.
Which doesn't always mean it gets one :-)
> The life of a VW engine is
>much much longer than 8k-10k miles in Southern California with everything
>prim and proper except for a held open thermostat.
>
If you say so. My opinion is based on only a few hundred engines-worth of
experience.
-Bob Hoover
John Connolly
:-)
John
Veeduber <veed...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000220095233...@ng-co1.aol.com...
> "S. Madoski" asks:
>
> > How many more miles can I expect out of an engine with the
thermostats?
> >100,
> >1000, 10000? >>
>
> The highest mileage I've ever seen on a VW engine without a proper cooling
> system was about 20,000. Those are the ones that still have their
air-vanes.
> In the worst case -- several examples -- they got less than 100 miles. In
those
> cases they had neither air-vanes nor engine compartment seals. Here in
> southern California the average service life for stock displacement
engines in
> bugs, with the vanes and air seals but without a thermostat seems to be
eight
> to ten thousand.
>
>
cad...@my-deja.com
s-ma...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> Hi,
> How many more miles can I expect out of an engine with the thermostats? 100,
> ever overdesign a part, how come my old stock swingaxles (designed to handle 40hp)
> thermal coefficients of expansion of the various alloys in the engine, and their
> respective temperatures during the warmup cycle?
>
>
> Isn't the most efficient engine the one in which combustion occurs at the highest
> temperature? What does this have to do with the cooling system?
>
system is designed for and how it works.
If you live in a moderate climate, well your car
runs even fine with 10 or more cold starts a day.
But somebody telled you that, beside of the
wear, the impact on the enviroment is really bad?
I saw a several 1600 on a stand to measure the exhaustgas
contents. The difference between a cool engine and a
warmed up one tilted nearly the instruments. Then we
covered the air - inlet to overheat the engine. Bad luck.
The most effient and "cleanest" (as by a VW possible)
run was in the stock range.
But maybe the high fuel prices brings you back to earth.
Enjoy
Michael
>
> How long have they been using "jackscrews" on MD-80s?? Quite a few of those flying
> around too...
>
> They were wrong with auto sticks, fuel injection, putting the cooling fan at the
> end of the engine (type 3, 4), cable brakes, etc....a lot of scientists and
> engineers used to think that the world was flat.
>
> > Among the worst examples of this are the VW-specific magazines who use their
> > bully pulpit to tell their mechanically naive readers they can don't need a
> > thermostat or air vanes or any of that other stuff.
> >
> > You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out who benefits from having
> > the kiddies roaring around with unreliable, short-lived engines.
>
> The guy who sells the kid a Honda when he gets fed up with the "unreliable" VW?
>
> > -Bob Hoover
>
>
S. Madoski
Veeduber wrote:
The highest mileage I've ever seen on a VW engine without a proper cooling
> system was about 20,000. Those are the ones that still have their air-vanes.
> In the worst case -- several examples -- they got less than 100 miles. In those
> cases they had neither air-vanes nor engine compartment seals. Here in
> southern California the average service life for stock displacement engines in
> bugs, with the vanes and air seals but without a thermostat seems to be eight
> to ten thousand.
> The tone of your message implies you're one of those fellows driving around
> with a disabled cooling system.
>
> Good luck with it.
>
> -Bob Hoover
Thanks! My engine had a little over 50,000 miles on it and two cross country
trips (doghouse with vanes permanently open and no thermostat) when I pulled it out
to convert it to a dual port, put Kadrons on it, and drill and tap for full flow
(wanted to get another 50,000 out of it and thought it would be wise to check out
the internals, decided to do the other stuff as long as I had it out). My mechanic
told me the internals looked fine and there was no need to line bore, replace ps
&cs, or turn the crank. Since then I've put another 10k on it at least (don't have
my maintenance records handy). So far so good!
Steve
mpe...@grossmont.k12.ca.us
veed...@aol.com (Veeduber) wrote:
> "S. Madoski" asks:
>
> > How many more miles can I expect out of an engine with the
thermostats?
> >100,
> >1000, 10000? >>
>
cooling
> system was about 20,000. Those are the ones that still have their
air-vanes.
> In the worst case -- several examples -- they got less than 100
miles. In those
Fiddlesticks! I got 90,000 miles from a rebuilt without a thermostat.
I'm not exactly happy about that as I figure a stock 1600 should go
twice that. Furthermore I doubt it was built very well. I've got a
Mexican engine now. No thermostat.
> cases they had neither air-vanes nor engine compartment seals. Here
in
> southern California the average service life for stock displacement
engines in
> bugs, with the vanes and air seals but without a thermostat seems to
be eight
> to ten thousand.
>
> > If VW engineered everything to be absolutely necessary and
> >didn't
> >ever overdesign a part, how come my old stock swingaxles (designed
to handle
> >40hp)
> >hold up so well to the 50% more power I get from my 1600?
>
> Trick question, right? :-) Remove your axles and tell me how well
it runs.
> (Trick answer :-)
>
> > Can you tell me
> >the
> >thermal coefficients of expansion of the various alloys in the
engine, and
> >their
> >respective temperatures during the warmup cycle?
> >
>
> Yes, I can.
>
> >How long have they been using "jackscrews" on MD-80s?? Quite a few
of those
> >flying
> >around too...
> >
>
> The Piper 'Cub' also uses a jackscrew to control elevator trim. But
neither
> the DC-9 nor the Piper 'Cub' has anything to do with the Volkswagen's
cooling
> system.
>
> The tone of your message implies you're one of those fellows driving
around
> with a disabled cooling system.
>
> Good luck with it.
>
> -Bob Hoover
>
>
Jan Andersson
>
> I just realized that all of the linkage and thermostat is missing on my 1600
> single port engine. I just put the fan housing back on, and something was
> amiss. SO, how important is this? Since someone ahead of me was running
> without it, doesn't make it right, should I head to the wrecking yard for
> the linkage and put a new thermostat on? The engine is off of a 1968 bug,
> but the case has dual oil ports.
Yes.
Jan
Jan Andersson
Time to post my URL again:
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/9772/flaps.html
This issue pops up every month. The facts don't change.
Jan
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GaryK
Great discussions! Boy-you sure find out alot about engines and politics
with discussions like this!!! I am on my way to the wrecking yard as I
type, well almost. I will have a thermostat!!! And thanks to all for their
input.
Andrew W.
broadcast:
>Rocky Mountain Motorworks catalog VW9906 page 29 has all the parts you'll need.
> You will need to get all the parts seperately. It would be cheaper to
>scrounge them from salvage yard though...
Agreed, and in addition I believe that one or two of the parts that
they offer for the thermostat ain't OEM but are aftermarket. They
work (I installed such a setup in my old '74 Beetle) but you will
probably notice that they fit kinda "loose", the control-rod (that
goes across the back of the shroud and connects to the vanes) in
particular.
Here in Georgia, most of the VW mechs decry thermostats as
unnecessary, so they can be had for really cheap -- like $15 for the
whole schmutz! Same with stock distributors, they favor the cruddy
(for stock engines) 009. That is if they don't just throw them out,
of course.
Andrew W.
astr...@dork.com - "Dude"
http://home.cwru.edu/~agw4/
'67 Kombi / '62 Std. / '67 Westy
"It's no problem." ** Georgia
Mechanic, stargazer, wanderer.
John Willis
>In article <20000220095233...@ng-co1.aol.com>,
> veed...@aol.com (Veeduber) wrote:
>> "S. Madoski" asks:
>>
>> > How many more miles can I expect out of an engine with the
>thermostats?
>> >100,
>> >1000, 10000? >>
>>
>> The highest mileage I've ever seen on a VW engine without a proper
>cooling
>> system was about 20,000. Those are the ones that still have their
>air-vanes.
>> In the worst case -- several examples -- they got less than 100
>miles. In those
>
>Fiddlesticks! I got 90,000 miles from a rebuilt without a thermostat.
>I'm not exactly happy about that as I figure a stock 1600 should go
>twice that. Furthermore I doubt it was built very well. I've got a
>Mexican engine now. No thermostat.
You make Bob's point for him...you are unsatisfied with the service
life of your engine, could the addition of proper cooling have added
tens of thousands of miles to that life? I don't know where you live,
how you drive, how dusty it is where you are, the overall climate, but
I would wager $.05 that your engine would have lasted longer if it was
indeed a bone stock 1600 with the proper distributor, air cleaner,
engine compartment seals, fuel filters, and thermostat set up, etc.
Now I could be mistaken, but I suspect I'm right.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Willis
jdwi...@airmail.net
SHO'N'PRV 67
Didn't get in in time to give 'em the SUBRF v.9.8
:o(
--
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twice is called stupidity."- Don T. Buyford
SHO'N'PRV 67
>
> Hello gang,
>
> GazMP wrote:
> >
> > Very important, don't listen to people who talk about climates, they are
> > scary. The longer it takes for you motor to reach 80*C (110ish*F) the more
> > damage is done. Whether the daytime temp is 2*C or 20*C
>
> 20°C is a lot 'warmer' to us than 2°C, but to your Bug, it is not even
> halfway to heaven which is about 90°C.
>
> > Would you remove one from a water cooled car? I doubt it.
> > What do you think you will gain by removing it? Nothing but trouble.
>
> Ask my dad, he removed the thermostat from his H2O car coz he thinks
> Singapore is hot enough.... I tried talking to him times, but he brings
> out the I'm-your-Dad,-I-know-better stuff... :-(
>
> Alvin.
My dad's running his '70 Garage Mechanics Companion 1/2 Ton truck
without the thermostat. But he's also the type that starts buying and
throwing parts at the damned thing instead of trying to find the cause
of the problem...
The last problem he had, he went out and bought all the necessary
parts for a tune-up, rotor cap, plugs, etc... I sprayed all the intake
junctions with carb cleaner and tightened the carb. Intake leak would
have still been there after the tune-up...
> >
> > --
> > Gaz
> > Ramva index http://www.bug-bits.freeserve.co.uk/ramva/index.htm
> > Robot Wars page http://www.bug-bits.freeserve.co.uk/robots/main.htm
> > ** Remove .nospam from address to reply directly from newsgroups **
> > "GaryK" <g...@virtualhosts.net> wrote in message
> > news:88kq46$1a7$1...@ionews.ionet.net...
> > > I need to stop here, before I put the generator back.
> > >
> > > What would I do without RAMVA?
>
> --
> ___
> /___\ My Smurfette
> (o\ | /o) is a '70 Beetle.
> U-----U Boy, does she Fweem!
Someone should start compiling all the monthly rehashes of 009 vs.
stock/thermostat-flaps/GEX & abrupt ends, and placing them on a web
page, and link it to the index. Next time this comes up, post the URL,
and leave it at that...
GaryK
California for 20 years. I went to buy the linkage and thermostat for my
'68 sunny, and they actually laughed at me. They stated that they rebuild
around 3-4 engines per week, and never, never replace the thermostats or
linkage--they remove everyone they find! Unfortunately, they also throw
them out, so I couldn't come up with the linkage and vanes. Now, in the
Central Valley in California, it will run 100-108 degrees average for a
couple of weeks in a row...So it is interesting...
They told me the main reason for VW troubles that they see, are valves not
set right, and low oil...which tells me people aren't maintaining their
ride...
So far, the only linkage and vanes I see are in Rocky Mtn Motors, and their
parts list adds up to around $180. to restore my engine to original... This
subject seems to vary depending upon 1) restoring completely OEM 2) which
part of the country you live in 3) how much money you have.
As a newbie, it is confusing. All I want to do is get my VeeeDub on the
road...
Eric and Allison
having to rebuild 3-4 motors a week, and they never put in the
thermostats.
the local shop here in vegas also laughed at me when i went to find a
thermostat bracket for my engine last summer.
jokes on them. thermostats work. :)
Eric
59 bug
P.J. BERG
6 Volt electrics (Very difficult to find one year only starter) that has
covered 187 500 miles +.
To the best of my knowledge it is still on its original engine and trans.
J.
Ps. Try that without the Thermostat. LOL.
--
P.J.Berg
Ph.# +47 22594552
Fax. # +47 22569587
Mob. # +47 98681318
What do you mean you can't hear what I think?
"John Willis" <jdwi...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:10E60F9C427D3350.3DCFEA47...@lp.airnews.net...
S. Madoski
John Willis wrote:
>> The highest mileage I've ever seen on a VW engine without a proper
> >cooling
> >> system was about 20,000. Those are the ones that still have their
> >air-vanes.
> >> In the worst case -- several examples -- they got less than 100
> >miles. In those
> >
> >Fiddlesticks! I got 90,000 miles from a rebuilt without a thermostat.
> >I'm not exactly happy about that as I figure a stock 1600 should go
> >twice that. Furthermore I doubt it was built very well. I've got a
> >Mexican engine now. No thermostat.
>
> You make Bob's point for him...you are unsatisfied with the service
> life of your engine, could the addition of proper cooling have added
> tens of thousands of miles to that life? I don't know where you live,
> how you drive, how dusty it is where you are, the overall climate, but
> I would wager $.05 that your engine would have lasted longer if it was
> indeed a bone stock 1600 with the proper distributor, air cleaner,
> engine compartment seals, fuel filters, and thermostat set up, etc.
> Now I could be mistaken, but I suspect I'm right.
Bob could have convinced me that engines with the thermostats last longer
without making the big exaggeration(??......or maybe it's just the way they
drive down there in LA???)....they would also probably last longer if I
adjusted my valves every 1000 miles, remachined the heads every 30,000
miles, never drove it over 60mph, installed a preoiler, a type 4 oil cooler,
a sump plate heater, etc, etc....if that's your trip, more power to ya.
It's not for me though...not right now anyway.
Steve
Nachi11744
>> Singapore is hot enough.... I tried talking to him times, but he brings
>> out the I'm-your-Dad,-I-know-better stuff... :-(
Hi Alvin,
You guys need to put the thermostat back into the water cooled car !
If it is FI, no 'stat will screw up the warm up mixture, if carb with auto
choke, the da#n thing will run on choke most of the time, even in Singapore.
Most *modern* auto choke carbs apply full choke around 20-25 C ambient temps
and use switches in the coolant (thermoswitch) to supply +ve to the choke coil
from the alternator.
I ran cars with A/C in Malaysia with 72 C (from AC-Delco or Land-Rover) 'stats
to keep down coolant temps in 3 hour long traffic-jams (after having fitted
bigger rads, bigger fans, elecric fans, cutting the valance for more
airflow...........).
But the *lower* temp 'stats are now rare indeed, most cars are supplied with
80C or 82C 'stats in the tropics, you could change the electric fan switch for
a 95C-85C(on-off setting, stock is mostly 105C-95C) if the temp gauge needle
skyrocketing makes you nervous in heavy traffic.
My BMW 3 litre could sustain 120 mph with the temp needle sitting at 85-90C
(stock 80C 'stat, 3 row rad, stock 9 blade fan and huge electric fan from 5
litre V-8 Benz) with ice cold a/c in ambient temps of around 35-38C when
running to Penang right into that island's nasty traffic.
Nachi
Veeduber
>Bob could have convinced me that engines with the thermostats last longer
>without making the big exaggeration(??......or maybe it's just the way they
>drive down there in LA???)...
Steve (and the Newsgroup),
I'm not trying to convince you. It's your ride. And your responsibility.
The question had to do with how much longer an engine would last when fitted
with the factory cooling system, which begs the question 'Compared to what?'
Surely not when compared to a bone stock engine, at least one of which racked
up something like 320,000 miles on an RFD route (according to one of those old
VW ads).
In my opinion, the best answer was to offer some examples of how long engines
without a proper cooling system HAVE lasted. Of course, as soon as I said the
highest time engine I'd seen without a cooling system only had about 20,000
miles I got messages from folks insisting their particular engine, sans
thermostat, had done a zillion miles, yada yada yada...
(... if I seem slightly less than impressed by such claims, I've also received
messages from folks claiming their daily driver puts out 300hp from a Type I
engine, or the one from the fellow telling me how Split-Fire spark plugs
increased his mileage to 50mpg, or the bus owner in Texas who claims to cruise
his stock '67 21-window at 85mph... and has done so since it was new... and
those are some of the more realistic examples :-)
I've never having had the opportunity to work on (or even see!) examples of the
truly remarkable engines owned by many of the subscribers to this Newsgroup.
The loss is surely mine. But I have worked on and built a lot of other engines
and it is that body of work which forms the basis of my expressed opinions.
When it comes to Volkswagens, you are your best mechanic. Gather all the
information you can and then think for yourself -- make your own decision.
Time will tell if you made the right choice.
-Bob Hoover
S. Madoski
Veeduber wrote:
> Steve wrote:
>
> >Bob could have convinced me that engines with the thermostats last longer
> >without making the big exaggeration(??......or maybe it's just the way they
> >drive down there in LA???)...
>
> Steve (and the Newsgroup),
>
> I'm not trying to convince you. It's your ride. And your responsibility.
>
> The question had to do with how much longer an engine would last when fitted
> with the factory cooling system, which begs the question 'Compared to what?'
> Surely not when compared to a bone stock engine, at least one of which racked
> up something like 320,000 miles on an RFD route (according to one of those old
> VW ads).
I'm just wondering how many miles I'll gain by hassling with the thermostat, I
already use vanes (and all the stock tin....or cool tin), and would never not use
them.
> In my opinion, the best answer was to offer some examples of how long engines
> without a proper cooling system HAVE lasted. Of course, as soon as I said the
> highest time engine I'd seen without a cooling system only had about 20,000
> miles I got messages from folks insisting their particular engine, sans
> thermostat, had done a zillion miles, yada yada yada...
>
> (... if I seem slightly less than impressed by such claims, I've also received
> messages from folks claiming their daily driver puts out 300hp from a Type I
> engine, or the one from the fellow telling me how Split-Fire spark plugs
> increased his mileage to 50mpg, or the bus owner in Texas who claims to cruise
> his stock '67 21-window at 85mph... and has done so since it was new... and
> those are some of the more realistic examples :-)
LOL! .....what about the 400hp supercharged bus from Vallejo?!
> I've never having had the opportunity to work on (or even see!) examples of the
> truly remarkable engines owned by many of the subscribers to this Newsgroup.
> The loss is surely mine. But I have worked on and built a lot of other engines
> and it is that body of work which forms the basis of my expressed opinions.
>
> When it comes to Volkswagens, you are your best mechanic. Gather all the
> information you can and then think for yourself -- make your own decision.
> Time will tell if you made the right choice.
>
> -Bob Hoover
....since no one else was, I was sorta playing "devil's advocate" regarding
thermostat necessity. Everyone was pretty cool about it, and hopefully it
generated some useful discussion. I agree with you 99%, and value and thank you
for your "expressed opinions".Regards,
Steve
Eric Hauge
a thermostat in the oil system, that (I think) keeps the reserve tank out of
the cycle until it warms up.....
--
Eric 'Dad' Hauge
Dad's Garage - aircooled ONLY!
John Willis <jdwi...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:C48396CB06BA64A1.F094D153...@lp.airnews.net...
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2000 01:29:17 -0600, "Shad Laws" <s-l...@nwu.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >I am in 100% full agreement that the flaps are necessary. Otherwise,
places
> >like the left hand side of the engine will have nice cool cylinders and
nice
> >hot heads - not the way the air was supposed to go. However, I don't
think
> >the thermostat is all that important. Yes, you may save an ounce or two
of
> >wear and tear. So, why don't Porsche's have them? They have 3 liter
> >engines with 11-blade fans... and no thermostat. If you start your car
in
> >absolutely freezing weather, then use the thermostat. If not, I don't
think
> >it's as important. Don't go ripping them out of the car, but if they're
not
> >there, I wouldn't fork out the cash and time to put it there.
> >
> >Shad
> >
> Re-read what the other posters are saying. A VW engine is not a
> Porsche engine. sure they look similar, but it ends there. An ounce
> or two of wear and tear, every time you start your engine, over the
> course of years of service, adds up to a shortened service life. A
> properly assembled VW engine can give 100,000 miles of service or
> more, I doubt one put together without the t-stat, taking longer to
> warm up to proper operating temperature in ALL climates causing
> additional wear EVERY time you start the engine from stone cold, even
> with the flaps, will last as long. Remember, VW was (and is) in the
> business to make money. If they seriously thought the t-stat was
> unnecessary, don't you think they would have left it off to begin with
> in order to save that fifty cents up to couple of dollars they spent
> on them, per t-stat, over the millions and millions of engines they
> imported in the US (can't speak for the rest of the world)? Imagine
> what just that one part could have saved them if they left it off, if
> it were truly unnecessary.
>
> Yes, you can run an aircooled VW engine without a thermostat. Would I
> do it on my own car? No.
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> John Willis
> jdwi...@airmail.net
Shad Laws
cooling air. Volkswagens also have a "thermostat" (kinda) for oil. High
pressure oil flows by the oil cooler. So, when cold, the cooler isn't used
much.
Shad
Eric Hauge <prof...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:897i0h$ekf$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...