Type 4 3000cc 90mm x 103mm possible?
Joe Cali - Next Generation
Hi Mark, very possibe I wrote THE T-4 UPRIGHT CONVERSION MANUAL and in it
is a directory of part supplier and specialists. I will be happy to send
free info and articles - I know the Kafer racers build engines that big and
will send some articles on them also. If anyone is interested this offer is
open to all. I am on a T-4 misson, to get the word out so anyone looking
for performace will look T-4 and not waste their time and money, as I have
on T-1's. By the way 3.0's are some daily drivers in Europe.
Email me or mail to:
NEXT GENERATION
PO BOX 632
POMONA NY 10970
Joe
mark langford <lang...@hiwaay.net> wrote in article
<01bcf2dd$c99dfdc0$6393...@langford.hiwaay.net>...
> Type4NetHeads,
>
> I'm going to build a monster Type 4 for the airplane that I'm building
> (KR2S). 2600cc engines are commonplace, but I've seen a 90mm Type 4
crank
> that Bernie Bergmann sells. Anybody have any experience with these "full
> circle" cranks? This would give me a cool 3000cc!
>
> If so what kind of rods would I have to use? I'd think the 2.0 liter
50mm
> journal rods would work if there's enough room. Just wondering if
> anybody's every built one of these critters...
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Mark Langford
> email at lang...@hiwaay.net
> KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford
>
Hot2vw
I think Bergman got a bad rap from a reply. I had him do a hydraulic special
for my 1835 and it was great. I put in a NEW used roller crank I found at a car
show and man the only thing that limited the rpm was the valve springs. I also
bought one of his full circle type 1 stroker cranks and haven't had any
trouble.
jammin'jeff
mark langford wrote:
>
> Type4NetHeads,
>
> I'm going to build a monster Type 4 for the airplane that I'm building
> (KR2S). 2600cc engines are commonplace, but I've seen a 90mm Type 4 crank
> that Bernie Bergmann sells. Anybody have any experience with these "full
> circle" cranks? This would give me a cool 3000cc!
>
> If so what kind of rods would I have to use? I'd think the 2.0 liter 50mm
> journal rods would work if there's enough room. Just wondering if
> anybody's every built one of these critters...
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Mark Langford
> email at lang...@hiwaay.net
> KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford
Good God my man! A welded stroker crankshaft of that size in an
airplane engine ... buy lots and lots of life insurance so your family
is well taken care of after you (and your Robinson plane) are long gone
in smashing fashion.
Let's look at the facts. The T-4 1.7 & 1.8 engines come with a 66mm
crankshaft and large rod journals. VW then took that same forged crank
and offset ground it to make 71mm, with much smaller rod journals. Now,
to stroke that stock crank - and that is what Bernie's doing - welding
rod material is added to the outside of the cranks rod journal, and it
is offset ground even more. By the time 90mm stroke is reached
(according to your 50mm rod journal statement) there will be precious
little of the original crankshaft forging is left.
The most the T-4 should be stroked to, for reliability sakes, is 74mm
(and I'm talking street/off-road and other applications where failure
won't kill ya!). I know that your aircraft engine will only be spinning
3200-3500 rpm (direct drive), but you'll be making a grave mistake going
larger with a welded stroker. And if you do go with a welded crank, call
DeMello (562.860.6012) for your crankshaft, they've been doing it for
many, many more years (like decades) ... and crank stroking is their
main business!!! If you must go with a bigger crank for the T-4, plan on
spending the proper funds ($$$$!) for a 88mm forged Scat Enterprises
crank (310.370.5501).
Or, go with a T-1 based engine using a high-performance Auto-Craft
engine case, forged 88mm Berg Enterprises crank (411 centermain, Porsche
rod journals), some good rods, and Cima 94mm pistons. But at that
expense, you might as well buy a fully rebuilt, *complete* aircraft
engine, like a Continental or Lycoming.
If you want to talk to someone about Type 4 aircraft engines, try Mark
at Mark Stephens (Tehachapi, California; 805.822.5678). They have built
plenty of T-4 engines for VW, Porsche, and specialty use over the years,
and have been very active recently in developing higher out-put aircraft
engines for homebuilders like yourself. They might not agree with my
feelings of no welded cranks over 74mm, but then again ... ?
Whatever your decision, at least you been warned and I can sleep well
tonight.
Jammin' Jeff
PS. If you do go with Bernie's stuff, will you list me as a
beneficiary on one of your insurance policies??? Heck, I'll even pay for
it!
con...@sisna.com
Bergman's cranks suck.
John
Didn't mean to be long winded in this post, sorry.
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Rob Boardman
jammin'jeff wrote:
>
> mark langford wrote:
> > Type4NetHeads,
> > I'm going to build a monster Type 4 for the airplane that I'm building
> > Mark Langford
> > KR2S project construction at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~langford
>
> Good God my man! A welded stroker crankshaft of that size in an
> airplane engine ... buy lots and lots of life insurance
> Let's look at the facts. The T-4 1.7 & 1.8 engines come with a 66mm
> crankshaft and large rod journals. VW then took that same forged crank
> and offset ground it to make 71mm, with much smaller rod journals. Now,
> to stroke that stock crank - and that is what Bernie's doing - welding
> rod material is added to the outside of the cranks rod journal, and it
> is offset ground even more. By the time 90mm stroke is reached
> (according to your 50mm rod journal statement) there will be precious
> little of the original crankshaft forging is left.
> Whatever your decision, at least you been warned and I can sleep well
> tonight.
> Jammin' Jeff
>
> PS. If you do go with Bernie's stuff, will you list me as a
> beneficiary on one of your insurance policies??? Heck, I'll even pay for
> it!
Thankyou for a great post Jeff. As a former private pilot,
and former Air Traffic Controller, and someone still interested
in aircraft but with no experience with VW powered aircraft, I
was very worried about Mark's proposal, but didn't have the
expertise to reply to him.
I might just add one bit I do know - the prop on an aero engine
puts an enormous gyroscopic load on the crank, much greater
than the VW engine was designed for. Limbach and other VW
aero engine derivitives usually have to use a beefed up bearing
area behind the prop, and special cranks, and this is on
1600-2000cc engines.
With a more powerful 3000cc engine, and therefore a bigger
prop to absorb that power, a welded crankshaft sounds like
an accident just waiting to happen.
He seems to be aiming at around 100-115 horsepower, and he'd
be better off with a Lycoming 235 aero engine or similar,
even though it might cost him some dollars.
What price your life Mark?
--
Rob
R.Boa...@bom.gov.au
Use this address - incorrect address above to fool auto mailers
(1970 1500sp, one owner, 236,000 miles on it's original engine)
Jason Black
He's right about sticking with a more reliable engine.
He could have been more tactful about saying it though. If the person
can tackle building a kit airplane (granted-some are probably a lot
easier than others) then he can probably handle the engine part of it
too. It's a reapplication of the basic constructive knowledge.
Depending on what it takes to move the plane, I might select something
smaller than that, closer to a 2.0 liter. I have a fear of falling
really fast from a long ways up.
Good luck
vw...@earthlink.net
John Connolly
jammin'jeff wrote:
>
> mark langford wrote:
> >
> > Type4NetHeads,
> >
> > I'm going to build a monster Type 4 for the airplane that I'm building
> > that Bernie Bergmann sells. Anybody have any experience with these "full
> > circle" cranks? This would give me a cool 3000cc!
> >
> > If so what kind of rods would I have to use? I'd think the 2.0 liter 50mm
> > journal rods would work if there's enough room. Just wondering if
> > anybody's every built one of these critters...
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Mark Langford
> > email at lang...@hiwaay.net
>
the problem isn't finding rods that fit, it's finding rods that will
WORK. Secondly, fitting that sucker in there is going to be a bitch.
They are designed for aftermarket cases; they just HAPPEN to use main
and rod bearing journals that are shared with stock T-4 stuff. That
doesn't mean it will fit.
If you are asking these questions, you don't have the knowledge to
tackle this project. Stick with more common components; and make sure
it's reliable. I wouldn't want a 3L VW engine powering an airplane I was
riding in!
You would be in good shape with a 96mm X up to 86mm or so, which results
in an impressive 2.5L, and will be reliable too.
John